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[Sexual Misconduct & Power Abuse]: Harvey Weinstein and Other Jerks in High Places
Astaereth
In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
So there's been a recent wave of sexual harassment/sexual assault allegations against producer and Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein, but this is part of larger pattern both within the film industry and without. I could list a bunch of names here but we all know them. Producers, comedians, actors, tech leaders, politicians, and don't forget the Catholic Church--seems like any community even remotely insular where power is at all concentrated ends up with this problem.
This about sums up the current problem. As someone put it on Twitter, "What did Seth McFarlane know and why did he make this joke? Why did they all laugh?"
https://youtu.be/KCNvREKTnQc
For powerful captains of industry who are trying not to get swept up in this tidal wave of people calling jerks out on shit, here's a handy guide on how not to harass women, courtesy its namesake:
The Rock is one of 538's current leading candidates for President in 2020, and also an actor.
For everyone else:
Is the tide actually turning here, now that more accusations seem to be coming to light? Or is it not turning at all, given our current President? Or is it not turning fast enough, given that even the actors and actresses coming out with their own stories in solidarity are too afraid of harming their careers to name names? What up with this tide, y'all.
Also, what can we do to help prevent sexual harassment and assault in these communities, from inside and from without? These people by definition escape punishment--Harvey Weinstein's big loss is that he's being ejected from a company that bears his name, which is the first part of any Batman story. He'll be fine. Do we need new laws (longer statutes of limitation)? New cultural movements? Or is progress inevitable and we should just to wait for people like Harvey to die off?
Things we are not doing here:
1. Defending sexual misconduct
2. Defending defending sexual misconduct
3. Blaming victims
4. Outing victims
5. Advocating violence against anybody
6. Talking about Trump in any specific way because we already have 90 threads for that
7. [anything else mods decree verboten in the course of this thread]
Debate and/or discourse GO! Let's try not to get this one locked, please.
This about sums up the current problem. As someone put it on Twitter, "What did Seth McFarlane know and why did he make this joke? Why did they all laugh?"
https://youtu.be/KCNvREKTnQcFor powerful captains of industry who are trying not to get swept up in this tidal wave of people calling jerks out on shit, here's a handy guide on how not to harass women, courtesy its namesake:
The Rock is one of 538's current leading candidates for President in 2020, and also an actor.
For everyone else:
Is the tide actually turning here, now that more accusations seem to be coming to light? Or is it not turning at all, given our current President? Or is it not turning fast enough, given that even the actors and actresses coming out with their own stories in solidarity are too afraid of harming their careers to name names? What up with this tide, y'all.
Also, what can we do to help prevent sexual harassment and assault in these communities, from inside and from without? These people by definition escape punishment--Harvey Weinstein's big loss is that he's being ejected from a company that bears his name, which is the first part of any Batman story. He'll be fine. Do we need new laws (longer statutes of limitation)? New cultural movements? Or is progress inevitable and we should just to wait for people like Harvey to die off?
Things we are not doing here:
1. Defending sexual misconduct
2. Defending defending sexual misconduct
3. Blaming victims
4. Outing victims
5. Advocating violence against anybody
6. Talking about Trump in any specific way because we already have 90 threads for that
7. [anything else mods decree verboten in the course of this thread]
Debate and/or discourse GO! Let's try not to get this one locked, please.
+2
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Either way, it's very sad.
*cough* McFarlane *cough*
At least according to TMZ, it wasn't a joke (at least not for McFarlane). He couched it in one to make it palatable, I guess: http://www.tmz.com/2017/10/11/seth-macfarlane-harvey-weinstein-joke-jessica-barth-oscars/
[TMZ may have weird NSFW shit on it, I guess? I don't navigate there often. Forewarned.]
Seth's jab at Weinstein is something I see a lot. It also came out during the Ghomeshi trial - people saying that the person in question had a reputation, and so they would steer their own friends / family away from them.
But you don't try to drag it out into the legal sphere, because doing so opens-up your own private life to scrutiny, disrupts career opportunities and kills important relationships.
That's fucked-up, but it is a reality of both political & media careers: knowing people & getting along with people does more to advance your position than anything else, and by that same token, fucking-up a relationship with someone higher up the ladder will screw your opportunities more than any other mistake.
Sorting-out the problem of harassment & assault in these fields is going to be necessarily entangled with hammering down institutional power structures & enforcing policy that demands blind selection of talent for career retention / advancement.
But then, burned out and failed actresses and actors could say what they like. And they don't. Even if they are now teaching drama in Milwaukee.
Yes, and? Post under this OPs topic, no need to mention previous threads.
First, there is probably something of a "trophy factor" here, something that doesn't exist in other industries. Saying you grabbed Emma Stone's ass is going to be more impressive to your dirtbag peers than saying you groped Sally in accounting.
Second, there's a requirement of socialization. Most places are going to have work events, but not to the same extent as in Hollywood. If you're an up and coming actor, you are basically obligated to attend parties full of drugs and horny, crusty bigwigs with boundary issues, and you are further obligated to be super nice to them in hopes they give you a break.
Third, Hollywood is pretty unparalleled in its incestuous consolidation of power. The same handful of dudes are behind almost every significant film, which makes blacklisting a particularly nasty reality. When someone says you'll never work in this town again, they can legit make it happen.
Fourth, it's very easy for predators to couch their sleazy behavior in demands that are more ostensibly plausible. If you're casting a character who's sexy and aggressive, you can more easily get away with telling your prospective star to do sexy, aggressive things. We all know the tale of Megan Fox and her audition for Michael Bay, and that is something you absolutely couldn't get away with in another industry. "Okay miss, I need you to sexy-wash my car" would be a non-starter.
All of these factors combine to make an environment that is toxic as hell, lets predators hide in plain sight, and allows them to watch each other's backs. And I don't think we can do much legislatively, because all this sexual assault and harassment is already illegal.
I believe Astaereth has the right of it - it's a matter of forcing those in power too be accountable. It's a matter of the people who know about this stuff speaking out in backing up the victims, making sure the victims feel safe in coming forward. Hopefully the Weinstein story has legs, and leads to more people coming forward. Because that's the only way we're going to see change.
I imagine it's a mix of people who are still trying to network their way in/back in and those who assume that their word wouldn't be taken seriously. It would be brushed off as a failed actor just trying to lash out at an industry they couldn't make it in.
Hmm, sorry, I wasn’t trying to drag that thread up. I worded my post poorly; I couldn’t find that thread initially (did not know it was closed) and was really just asking if this was an example of that concept but I wasn’t very clear.
I don't know if it entirely applies here.
There are for sure people who knew about Weinstein and didn't really say anything. There are probably people who didn't know*. But most people in Hollywood do seem to understand that their industry comes with a certain amount of this bullshit and that it's just the price of working at the dream factory, so to speak. It's less the missing stair and more like everybody knows the front steps to the only entrance are random-spiked worse than a Mario boss castle.
*everybody in the world seems to have known that Weinstein was a titanic asshole (to the point where Tropic Thunder made fun of it). I think one thing that's clear is that assholeishness has a strong correlation with worse, secret misconduct. Garbage people are garbage all the way through, and that should make people more wary of tolerating terrible social behavior in leaders.
I still don’t agree that fear of being sued is a primary motivator here.
I was at a party this weekend which included some producers and actors and this was a hot topic. I mean, small sample size, but they confirmed what I already thought: being blacklisted (at least according to this admittedly small group of industry folk) is the reason most people in the industry don’t initially speak out, but then when one person does it’s a domino effect. First because, quite frankly, when a person in power abuses their power it’s never a one-off situation. It seems unlikely that someone in power who engages in sexual harassment does it only once. It almost always seems to lead to serial abuse. Second, because there’s safety in numbers.
edit: The reason I think this is relevant is because being blacklisted is something specific to this industry. Being sued for libel/slander/whatever is not. So that’s almost a different discussion. It’s important to understand the basis of the chilling effect because it’s a part of the underlying problem. Weinstein being able to threaten blacklisting is very relevant. Anyone can fear being sued for any number of reasons in a variety of situations, but this is a different monster.
It wasn't just that joke either. I've seen a clip of 30 Rock where a female character says "Nobody in Hollywood scares me. I've turned down sex with Harvey Weinstein three times. Out of five."
That's the same show that had a character call someone up and pretend to be a Bill Cosby to ask a favour, only to have the person on the phone scream at them. "You've got a lot of nerve calling me after what you did to my Aunt Paulette!"
I'm still reeling that in this day and age shit like this can still be an open secret in Hollywood, or anywhere.
Yeah but you see jokes like that and there's a degree to which it seems like it's just a joke about someone's reputation. And even that McFarlane clip, absent the recent revelations, might seem like that. It's an exaggeration for effect.
It's just once the truth comes out and you see the look on his face and it really takes on a whole new context. He looks almost disgusted by people just applauding it. And Emma Stone looks like she's just trying not to rock the boat.
I've always kinda thought, given how people react to this kind of behaviour in social situations and the way it lets the behaviour continue, that a big part of this can often be people just not really processing exactly how far these assholes will go. Not just "Yeah, he's a asshole, I know" but also like "Yeah, that was inappropriate, so I told him to cut that shit out" and on some level they don't get that that isn't enough. Because they don't really get that this isn't someone stepping over the line and needing to be told that, but that this is someone who doesn't acknowledge that the line exists.
I think there's a degree to which this stuff continues because there's many people who don't realise how serious it is because they only see a part of it and sort of fill in the rest of what they assume that person's behaviour is with what a normal person would do rather then what a completely fucked up sexual predator would do.
Like, you see Weinstein say something inappropriate and maybe you assume he's an asshole rather then someone who would corner a women and masturbate into a potted plant in front of her.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Like, in general?
Pretty damn corrupt. Nepotistic as fuck.
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/ben-affleck-apologizes-hilarie-burton-1202587248/
It's maddening an act like this was caught on live tv and nothing happened. No reports in the media, or anywhere as far as I can tell. I used to watch TRL back in the day, yet I don't remember this at all. It certainly wasn't reported by MTV.
And this isn't the last of his offensive behavior, his brother is infamous for being a harasser. Affleck has yet to speak out in public about his brother.
http://time.com/4645846/what-to-know-about-the-casey-affleck-oscar-controversy/
Jen Statsky is writer for The Good Place, and Broad City
Allegations against Weinstein continue, including from Léa Seydoux.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/11/lea-seydoux-says-harvey-weinstein-sexually-assaulted-her
Cara Delevingne spoke up, as well.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/11/entertainment/cara-delevingne-harvey-weinstein/index.html
This is sickening.
I dislike that often people essentially get away with, even in admission of guilt, just saying, 'I acted inappropriately,'
Like they just spoke out of turn or raised their voice or something.
I wonder if it wouldn't help to force someone like Affleck to say in precise terms what he did. Force him to own it.
Apologizing for 'acting inappropriately', IMHO, is much easier to do than apologizing for grabbing someone's boobs.
Pictures with the whole thread:
People like to think that it couldn't happen to them, but it can literally happen to anyone.
Taking one step out, if the FBI's investigation starts to turn up allegations and evidence like one of those unending paper streamer magic tricks (a distinct possibility) I could see this turning into a full-blown probe of production companies across all of film and television, maybe music too. Not even Disney is isolated from this, especially with the rumors around ex-mouseketeers and other former child stars.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/12/rose-mcgowan-twitter-suspended-ben-affleck-harvey-weinstein
Real nice, Twitter.
edit: McGowan needs to get a blog and/or you tube account asap.
I guess Hollywood found her... difficult.
Maybe she thought she had nothing to lose? Either way, a comeback later on is likely out of the question for now.
These big cases which break are like when the government comes on and says "We've seized a hundred thousand pounds of cocaine and arrested thirty dealers!". We know that doesn't stop people buying drugs, simply makes the drugs which do exist more expensive, and does nothing to make people think, "I'm going to stop buying and dealing drugs"
To stop this we need to educate people better, and that is more than just punishing the worst offenders. People don't identify with the worst offenders. The fact that Weinstein has probably raped 1000 women over the years means its great to bring him down and send him to jail , but people who are marginal cases of this look at him and say, "I'm nothing like that. My transgressions are small and insignificant" And the amount of net harm done by those marginal cases vastly exceeds that done by Weinstein. And the majority of women and men involved with those marginal cases probably think that the undesirable interactions they have with them outweigh the personal costs, because those men and women are their only lifeline out of obscurity. So the majority of men and women being exploited wont speak up, because destroying their bridge is bad for them, and the majority of men and women doing the exploiting don't really view themselves as doing anything wrong. Now, it's certainly the case that minds change, often for good and real reasons, and what seemed like a good decision at the time will slowly become a poison that eats at you.
I genuinely believe that this problem is caused by, and will endure until we get rid of, societies taboo about talking,thinking and valuing sex and sexuality and the double standard (and inconsistent standard) which is placed upon men and women in terms of their relationship with it. I think anything other than that might be a great act in terms of what should be done, since Weinstein and others are clearly monsters, but they will be replaced again and again and again and the exact same number of women and men will be abused in the exact same ways until we address the root causes. We need real sex education in this country. And that doesn't just mean education about pregnancy protection. It means real philosophical education about what sex and intimacy is, what it means, and how people relate to it in different ways. We need to stop putting condoms on bananas (if we're LUCKY, and I mean, clearly we can start these classes with condoms on bananas since protection is important) and start teaching boys and girls something that will actually help with this.
edit - Eh, I guess I went through all this last time and noone really got anything out of it. There's my piece on the subject. I'm sure everyone disagrees but I'll try to leave it well alone from now on so that you can discuss things in peace without everyone getting upset at me.
When a victim does it a portion of the population will immediately go to "She's just feeling guilty or she's a jilted/jealous lover" etc... and it's not taken seriously.
The only way this stuff gets traction is if there is evidence or an overwhelming number of women coming forward and that's fucked.
They have "See it, Say it" policies at fucking kindergarten and maybe that's where we need to start.
Mandatory reporting if you suspect sexual harassment or abuse? It seems to work for child abuse.
Dorsey needs to publicly apologize to McGowan, reinstate her account, and find who authorized the suspension and fire them.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Ah.
Well, then yes. That would do it.
That said, Twitter has the ability to simply remove a tweet and provide an explanation to Rose.
A complete block is tone deaf.
Almost start nuclear war? Promote racist bullshit? yeah, you can stay.
Post a phone number? fuck you, you're cut off!
Well I guess that’s a bit of a flaw in the treat people like the rock suggestion.
It says a lot about the power dynamics of Hollywood that a professional football player could get subjected to this sort of thing and still be afraid to say something or respond.