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Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Hmmmm, a system developed 7 years ago by a popular company that Bungie has good relations with and Bungie ignored learning from their history?
Oh, that sounds so unlike Bungie.
I'm going to make you feel real old here, but WoW was released in 2004; so 13 years ago.
I used to think it maddening to see Destiny make mistakes WoW made way back when, but perhaps they're attempting to follow Overwatch more than anything else.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
You're complaint is that they didn't psychologically manipulate people enough.
The whole skinner box set up that xp bars are built around and why you see them in every fucking game now is exploiting the way human brains work.
surfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
Like, these two equations:
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Bungie is eroding player trust by hiding or obfuscating information, especially as it pertains to something related to items that can be purchased for real money.
"They lied to us about X, they hid how Y actually works - what about A, B, C, or Z? What don't we know that we're assuming to be true?"
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not recognize the core problem brought up several times, so I'll spell it out.
The lying part is the problem.
I dont particularly care about their equations, as long as their UI dont straight up lie to me.
Sirialis on
+2
ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
I've been checking in on this thread and reddit daily to see if the game got better (or rather more suited to what I want it to be) and it's just been going downhill.
Seeing some of the responses here really makes me wonder what it would take to stop people from defending Bungo.
PS4 - Mrfuzzyhat
+1
surfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes. Edit: and especially if there was something on screen to denote that I was earning less exp due to earning too much too quickly.
The problem with greedy and lying developers/publishers is that you have to be on your guard constantly because if you're not, they'll trick you into giving them more money. And when you have to be on your guard constantly, you can't let go and immerse yourself in the game.
Good games only have one goal: To make playing it an enjoyable experience for the customer. Games that try to extract more money from you have another goal as well and the two goals often lead to a very visible conflict in how the game is experienced.
I have a number of publishers that I avoid because having to be on my guard ruins the experience for me.
If the game had from the start always displayed the correct and actual numbers, post any throttling adjustment, then I doubt there would be any flak about the system. It would have been a known and understood part of the XP rewards and people would have just accepted that, while maybe thinking it kinda sucked being subjected to xp throttles.
But, surprisingly, people don't like being misled. And it doesn't matter if it's something important, or just a video game -- people fundamentally don't enjoy being lied to.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes.
That's the whole point.
Oh! Well then, I guess I've been getting the wrong impression.
But surely now that this issue has been gotten rid of everything is fine.
Not really, now the can of worms has been opened and people are starting to ask "what else am I being lied to about?" and that means that player trust is in question.
And despite some individuals apologetic, off-putting and blase attitude towards that - it would appear that people DO care about that trust.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes.
That's the whole point.
Oh! Well then, I guess I've been getting the wrong impression.
But surely now that this issue has been gotten rid of everything is fine.
Nope.
Because like @Erevar has said, once you catch a liar, and said liar only admits to lying because they were caught, it becomes impossible to not question most anything they tell you for a period of time.
Even worse, is that after catching Bungie hiding and lying to their players, they didn't change the system to favor the players even in the slightest as a way to gain some goodwill, they instead doubled down and changed the system to still be as punishing to the player. That doesn't sound like they feel even the slightest bit like they were in the wrong for lying to their players about this part of their progression/reward system that ties directly into their cash shop.
The hyperbole is astounding, the time it takes to summon a sparrow isn't so arduous that the instant perk is the only good one with the rest being garbage. That's the sort of bullshit that led to static perks on weapons, with people declaring there's only one true god pull and Bungie taking it to heart.
Zero hyperbole here. The instant summon perk is just miles better from a game feel perspective then everything else. It's not even a contest. It makes you feel miles more mobile in the game world which when running around doing shit fantastic. It feels smooth. None of the other perks are as useful or make the play experience feel better that way.
I've only got 2 out of 3 characters with quick summon right now and you can really feel it on the one that doesn't have it.
so i just got vanishing point out of a bright engram and i think it has a cooler looking effect than dinas emrys
but it came with reload perk and not quick summon so it’s basically garbage
You know random perks on sparrows are fucking awful but I actually think they'd be tolerable if not for quick summon. Quick summon on sparrows is just so much better then every other perk and so good on it's own that there's literally no reason to use a sparrow if it doesn't have it. Which renders buying sparrows pointless.
I'm not sure how the other random perks are awful. Autoloaders is handy, and vernier thrusters is better for sparrow flying.
I didn't say the perks were awful. The perks being randomly assigned is awful. It basically means getting that sparrow you want is pretty pointless because there is good odds it loads with perks you find useless. The rest of the perks are mostly fine and wouldn't be a huge issue except quick summon is just so much better then them all by miles.
+1
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
The XP garbage is exactly why I'm vociferously anti-lootbox (to the point that it definitely pisses off other folks on here). It is impossible to add microtransactions, especially loot boxes, to your game without it having a massive warping effect on the gameplay.
+13
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
You seem to not get this at all, so I'll spell it out.
ITS THE LYING PART.
I dont give a shit about their fucking equations.
But the only thing that was "lying," as far as I'm aware, was the XP numbers being displayed and that seems far more like a coding oversight. But maybe it was intentional!
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
This would be strictly worse in terms of XP per hour than the previous system, since under this one you don't gain more XP for trash mobs prior to completing a public event.
And yet I'm reasonably confident that most people (absent the higher "base" rate to compare it to) would consider it "better," because it would *feel* like you're only ever being given more XP, not having it taken away.
I think you are missing the point. The problem isn't the method of how the exp is being throttled or whatever. We already have a 3x exp buff for the first three bright engrams and then it goes back to the super grind. That is more similar to your suggested "better" method and not a single person has really thrown a fit about it. Why? Because its clear and open and communicated up front to the playerbase.
This throttling mechanice, however, was hidden from the playerbase. Not only hidden, but the UI was straight lying to the players. That the system is directly tied to their cash shop is what makes it feel even more scummy.
I mean, aside from the bit about it being lying, yes, that's what I said? If the numbers had been presented differently, nobody would have had an issue with the throttling, because it could just as easily have been presented as a buff while the "real" base XP was the fully throttled one.
This is all just further solidifying my belief that letting players see too much is a terrible idea.
Thats what you get from this? Really?
That Bungie should have hidden even more from the playerbase?
Yes.
If you never see the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then suddenly it's not throttling, it's an XP buff that decays as you grind Public Events or whatever and builds as you do PVP or raids.
But because you got to see some of how the system handled XP, it's definitely throttling and taking XP away from you.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes.
That's the whole point.
Oh! Well then, I guess I've been getting the wrong impression.
But surely now that this issue has been gotten rid of everything is fine.
Nope.
Because like @Erevar has said, once you catch a liar, and said liar only admits to lying because they were caught, it becomes impossible to not question most anything they tell you for a period of time.
Even worse, is that after catching Bungie hiding and lying to their players, they didn't change the system to favor the players even in the slightest as a way to gain some goodwill, they instead doubled down and changed the system to still be as punishing to the player. That doesn't sound like they feel even the slightest bit like they were in the wrong for lying to their players about this part of their progression/reward system that ties directly into their cash shop.
Well, actually what they did was then lie to the players again because they said nothing about doubling the time it takes to get a level.
So they lied to the players to try and squeeze from money out of them via microtransactions, then refused to do anything about it till they got caught by the gaming press, then said they stopped what they were doing but at the same time changed a different part of the system without telling anyone to try and continue to squeeze more microtransaction money out of the playerbase.
It's all making it fairly clear that they are really interested in fucking with the gameplay experience in secret to try and make us buy lootbox lottery tickets.
+5
surfpossumA nonentitytrying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered Userregular
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
You get bonus XP for doing things that aren't Public Events.
Public Events (and similar activities) give you bonus XP that scales down with each successive one but builds back up over time.
You build up an XP buff over time doing PVP or raiding.
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
Those equations were an example, not representative of the actual systems.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
Again, part of the "throttling system" could have been a base 2x modifier.
Throttling system:
XP gain = base XP * (complicated stuff) and XP per level = 80k
which is the same as:
XP gain = base XP [* (complicated stuff) * 2] and XP per level = 160k
New system:
XP gain = base XP and XP per level = 160k
which is the same as the second version above minus the "throttling system" (the part in brackets).
Just because you got to "see" the 80k number doesn't make it the "real" number.
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating something to the players and violating their trust. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it was only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Again, all this is beside the actual point of the matter. Which is that were intentionally obfuscating the XP gains. The theory that it was a 'coding issue' doesn't really hold water for me, seeing as it only addressed when it found out/became a thing.
Yes, things are usually only addressed when they are discovered, it's true.
Posts
Oh, that sounds so unlike Bungie.
If we never saw the 80k per level or the incorrect numbers, then people would still have done pixel analysis on the exp bar and we'd be right back to where we are. Unless you are saying that Bungie would have then be able to lie to us and state it was an XP buff*, despite it actually being throttling, which seems like a weird thing to be advocating for.
*Because it was not an XP buff. Not in any way shape or form. Since no matter how long you stayed in PvP and Raids, your XP would be throttled just as fast in PEs. They weren't correlated with each other.
So I guess they should take away the EXP bar, too, in order to prevent the players from understanding the system. You know, in case they figure out the psychological techniques being used on them to keep them playing the game. Less information about the reward systems in place is never good. Again, I point to the very clear 3x buff we have right now. Everyone is fine with that. We have all the information about how that works, people understand it and they are cool with it. And I think that's because we have all the correct information about it. Even if they changed it to, "After your first 3 bright engrams a week, you earn EXP 3x slower", I still think most people would be ok with it. This whole issue has barely anything to do with how its "packaged" and instead has everything to do with hiding information from the players and using the game to lie to them about their progress.
I'm going to make you feel real old here, but WoW was released in 2004; so 13 years ago.
I used to think it maddening to see Destiny make mistakes WoW made way back when, but perhaps they're attempting to follow Overwatch more than anything else.
You're complaint is that they didn't psychologically manipulate people enough.
The whole skinner box set up that xp bars are built around and why you see them in every fucking game now is exploiting the way human brains work.
XP = 1.5 * (time spent playing) - 0.5 *
(time spent doing Public Events)
XP = 1.0 * (time spent playing) + 0.5 * (time spent doing not Public Events)
are the same thing. But if you let players see that you are doing the former, they will get way more upset than if they see that you are doing the latter, because you're taking something away.
"They lied to us about X, they hid how Y actually works - what about A, B, C, or Z? What don't we know that we're assuming to be true?"
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
You seem to not recognize the core problem brought up several times, so I'll spell it out.
The lying part is the problem.
I dont particularly care about their equations, as long as their UI dont straight up lie to me.
Sure. But explain to me how the latter is an XP buff.
Seeing some of the responses here really makes me wonder what it would take to stop people from defending Bungo.
Again, absent the actual numbers, the previous system could be replicated by having a low base rate of XP gain with a buff that decays as you gain XP via Public Events or other large masses of XP. Analyzing the bar, or even the XP values in DIM, would not tell you the difference.
Would you have been okay with the existing system if the XP values being displayed were correctly adjusted? If not, then your issue isn't with information being hidden, it's with feeling like something is being taken from you.
Yes. Edit: and especially if there was something on screen to denote that I was earning less exp due to earning too much too quickly.
That's the whole point.
Good games only have one goal: To make playing it an enjoyable experience for the customer. Games that try to extract more money from you have another goal as well and the two goals often lead to a very visible conflict in how the game is experienced.
I have a number of publishers that I avoid because having to be on my guard ruins the experience for me.
But, surprisingly, people don't like being misled. And it doesn't matter if it's something important, or just a video game -- people fundamentally don't enjoy being lied to.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
But thats not:
Which is why its disingenuous to say that had Bungie hidden more information from players, they could have spun their current system in a way that didn't piss off players.
But surely now that this issue has been gotten rid of everything is fine.
destiny2.txt
Your Ad Here! Reasonable Rates!
And despite some individuals apologetic, off-putting and blase attitude towards that - it would appear that people DO care about that trust.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Nope.
Because like @Erevar has said, once you catch a liar, and said liar only admits to lying because they were caught, it becomes impossible to not question most anything they tell you for a period of time.
Even worse, is that after catching Bungie hiding and lying to their players, they didn't change the system to favor the players even in the slightest as a way to gain some goodwill, they instead doubled down and changed the system to still be as punishing to the player. That doesn't sound like they feel even the slightest bit like they were in the wrong for lying to their players about this part of their progression/reward system that ties directly into their cash shop.
Oh.... your color combo is cool too.
Dad bods are for Titans.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Yes. They need to fix the armor. Priority one.
Zero hyperbole here. The instant summon perk is just miles better from a game feel perspective then everything else. It's not even a contest. It makes you feel miles more mobile in the game world which when running around doing shit fantastic. It feels smooth. None of the other perks are as useful or make the play experience feel better that way.
I've only got 2 out of 3 characters with quick summon right now and you can really feel it on the one that doesn't have it.
I didn't say the perks were awful. The perks being randomly assigned is awful. It basically means getting that sparrow you want is pretty pointless because there is good odds it loads with perks you find useless. The rest of the perks are mostly fine and wouldn't be a huge issue except quick summon is just so much better then them all by miles.
We're going by game/hollywood standards. :P
hollywood is just as real as the thought of me exercising
Well, actually what they did was then lie to the players again because they said nothing about doubling the time it takes to get a level.
So they lied to the players to try and squeeze from money out of them via microtransactions, then refused to do anything about it till they got caught by the gaming press, then said they stopped what they were doing but at the same time changed a different part of the system without telling anyone to try and continue to squeeze more microtransaction money out of the playerbase.
It's all making it fairly clear that they are really interested in fucking with the gameplay experience in secret to try and make us buy lootbox lottery tickets.
The point is, you'd have no way of knowing if you are gaining more for your first Public Event or less for subsequent ones, only that there is a difference. Even if the numbers weren't hidden, if they hadn't screwed up and applied the scaling to the values shown, you wouldn't know.
And maybe they were lying, or: a coding oversight (not applying the scaling to the values popping up on screen, which can be an easy mistake) has led to people assuming that this was an intentional deception. And maybe it was! And that would be bad.
But again, absent that peek into the internals of the XP system, it could easily have been duplicated purely by applying various buffs (similar to the "well rested" buff) to a lower base rate. You can even think of the 160k per level like: the previous system had a default 2x modifier to XP gain, and this modifier got increased or decreased based on various activities. Now that the system is gone, so is that base modifier.
This is why I find complaints about the "new" XP per level silly. We don't know why it was 80k! 80k doesn't mean anything. But because it was a visible number, it was deemed significant in and of itself.
It does mean something actually. 80k is meaningless on it's own. It's very meaningful in relation to 160k though, since one is double the size of the other.
That awkward moment... when Apothe0sis betrays you so people will like him/her again. :pop:
but the time it took to reach 80k before and after the change are entirely likely to be different, so doubling the xp is completely meaningless except as not the most adroit PR presentation of the concept
https://medium.com/@alascii
Confirmed: Surfpossum is Jaden Smith
Throttling system:
XP gain = base XP * (complicated stuff) and XP per level = 80k
which is the same as:
XP gain = base XP [* (complicated stuff) * 2] and XP per level = 160k
New system:
XP gain = base XP and XP per level = 160k
which is the same as the second version above minus the "throttling system" (the part in brackets).
Just because you got to "see" the 80k number doesn't make it the "real" number.
i mean, that's kind of the root of the issue here
80k was (is currently) the set amount of xp needed per level
but that number is meaningless as your ability to earn xp varies due to several factors
doubling the cap to 160k but removing the sliding scale of xp may in fact result in it take less time to earn a level
i suspect they have an idea of how much time it should take to earn a level and are basing things off of that
the number itself is literally meaningless
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)