Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
I don't think I like combat enough to stomach 6-8 combat encounters in one session. Need to mix it up with other encounter types.
For me it depends, it's fine for a dungeon crawl, as long as the dungeon crawl is bookended by travelling and RP
But even a dungeon, at least any good published one, has all kinds of stuff in it that isn't fighting between the fighting (and can usually be circumvented easily by blowing resources)
also xp rules are weird why not just use milestones, instead of busting out the calculators like some sort of geekazoid
I really want to run milestone exp but my players flat out won't let me, and then none of them can keep track of their fucking exp totals so we have to keep resetting it at someone else's exp
it's frustrating
Assuming that you've already communicated the problem with your players and emphasized how milestones lend themselves more to narrative progression as opposed to killdozering, the easiest solution is to inform that if they can't remember their xp gains then they will start over from the most concrete number you can confirm that they would have; the minimum neccesary to achieve their current level.
Alternately; tell them that as gm (and thus in charge of running the game's internal bureaucracy) this is the system that you will be using from now on if someone else doesn't want to run a campaign.
I think I've come up with a compromise
I will take the median of their party exp and that will be the party's "Exp", which I will add to after encounters (combat and otherwise), this solves my biggest problem as a DM which is players that cannot always attend being super weak. Players that have more experience than the "party exp" need to keep track of it, otherwise, that's what their exp is now
We already got through a mid-game argument where the city was attacked by zombies, but they had successfully prevented the zombies from entering the city (which I awarded them exp for) and now it was just a matter of the guards picking them off over a period of a few days from the thick walls
the Monk jumps off the wall and starts fighting a desperate battle against zombies for no reason, and the party joins him, blowing all of their resources. I gave them all zero experience for this. My rationale is that I don't think "farming experience" should ever be a thing in Dungeons & Dragons, it's a necessary evil in video games that have it, it is not the point of the game. They had no reason to fight, they were well aware there was no reason to engage them directly, and it got a bunch of soldiers killed as the guards rushed out to help them (thinking that they might die, and since these guys have saved the city twice, they must know something the guards dont). They turned a successful quest into a war for survival for literally no reason with EXP as the motivating factor, so I think I was justified in awarding no experience for this (fuck I should assign NEGATIVE experience because it was a dumbass thing to do)
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
Crawford has clarified that the game is not balanced around 6-8 combat encounters per adventuring day, that's merely the limit you can expect your players to be able to handle. You shouldn't be stuffing in combat encounters where they don't make sense, and when you have a bunch of them in a row, keep that number in mind.
But there's never going to be a great challenge rating system when a party could either be 5 life clerics or 5 sharpshooter crossbow fighters, which trivialize entirely different kinds of encounters
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
We got onto the subject because we were talking about how the 6/8 encounters per adventuring day wasn't accurate and not to expect an adventuring day to go that long, followed by some discussion of the fact that 'adventuring day' and 'session length' aren't the same thing, followed by me mentioning that that's true, but they probably should have been designed to be, at least for the average session length (a piece of data WotC is fully capable of gathering and almost certainly already knows) or the length of a standard AL session (2 or 4 hours), because it gives a natural stopping/starting point, makes AL-style games start and end cleanly, and reduces paperwork and trying to e.g. remember how much HP you still had at the end of the last session three weeks ago.
Obviously there are plenty of scenarios where a session is going to deviate from the 'designed-for' length, but whatever that length was, it doesn't seem to be the length most people actually play for.
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
I'm still annoyed that they started finding mechanically-cool ways to represent the concept (this thing gets an extra reaction attack if it takes fire damage, but can't take minor actions if it takes cold damage!) and then still completely reverted back to the old half damage/double damage with 5e.
Even though it is admittedly satisfying to smite something with a radiant vulnerability.
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
That's a different issue though. I'm responding to the idea that keeping track of your HP between sessions is too hard, or un-fun or whatever. Keeping track of how many HP you have left and how many spell slots remain from last session when returning to game this session does not seem like such an onerous task that it requires altering the rules or rethinking the design philosophy of the next edition D&D.
I will report that my variant rule, players can expend half of their hit dice either before or after combat to get the benefits of a short rest, has proven to be remarkably popular among my players. The bard is ambivalent about it, but even she's used it to expend the other half of HD to heal up. This way I can use ~2-3 combats in a short dungeon and none of the classes feel cheated
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
That's a different issue though. I'm responding to the idea that keeping track of your HP between sessions is too hard, or un-fun or whatever. Keeping track of how many HP you have left and how many spell slots remain from last session when returning to game this session does not seem like such an onerous task that it requires altering the rules or rethinking the design philosophy of the next edition D&D.
Oh okay sure I can agree with you there. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to want to minimize bookkeeping, so long as it's not at the expense of other more important things. It is kind of annoying sometimes, but I would liken it to boardgame components tumbling around inside a box when you try to shelve it. Sure it's annoying, but if the design team would have to sacrifice time spent on more important stuff to address that issue, I'd rather they not.
Just had the first night of my campaign. It went pretty smoothly, although I've never seen such repeatedly bad rolls. Like, all these investigation/insight rolls kept coming up under 7 and I'm like... trying to feed them information they need.
Combat was a little rough because I didn't realize the owner likes to close the shop at 10 on tuesdays, so the end got a little clipped, but I think it still went well.
Then I got home and checked facebook and apparently the store is closing down.
Thanks for the responses to my question a few pages back - I have been playing 5e for a few years now. I still feel that the starter-set is a horrible product. honestly do you think 20,- for a set of dice and 64 page adventure is worth it? (the rest is available for free on the wizards website...) and that the books don't actually teach you how to play the game, and just assume you already know what dnd is like.
Personally I like to end my sessions on either a complication to the quest or on the resolution. I really hate ending after a frivolous encounter because sure you get the high of some cool treasure, but its kinda meaningless, and there's not a lot to look forward to. To the point where sometimes I end sessions an hour earlier than our planned 4 hours. Because having the climax of the session in the first 30/40 minutes really ruins my own energy to continue dming for the rest.
In the first campaign I ran, I once ended a session just before the fight with the big-bad, and that felt a right beat to end on... but it turned out to be a bad beat to start on. Maybe other groups are different - but these kinds of session structure is like super important - in my opinion more important than the exact make up of the bad guys and their damage output, which is something the books seriously lack advice in.
I like ending on roleplaying complications more than on encounters because it gives me more wiggle room to structure the next session... but on the other hand, ending with the coolest/hardest/narratively important combat encounter of the day is the most satisfying for my players.
My party always has the same players so I never end a session or try to end a session back in town at the conclusion of a quest. You get to loot the monster caves, but turning in the reward to the quest giver is the start of the next session, so i can slowly build up tension again for a new climax.
I do always try to end the session at an appropriate time for a long rest when the party is levelling up, so people don't have to worry about bookkeeping with what they've done and available and levelling and learning new skills. But this isn't always narratively pleasing. but i'm a pretty firm believer of levelling the players every 2 sessions - as we get to play once a month, and I don't want people to level their characters mid session. (which I why I just give them the total amount of exp at the end of the session, not after every encounter)
But one thing that I need to do is have a good understanding what the party is going to attempt to do the first thing in the next session, so I can plan something sweet.
Its difficult to structure a 4 hour session in a satisfying way juggling all these different needs - and I don't think the books do a good job of helping the starting dm figure this out.
Thanks for the responses to my question a few pages back - I have been playing 5e for a few years now. I still feel that the starter-set is a horrible product. honestly do you think 20,- for a set of dice and 64 page adventure is worth it? (the rest is available for free on the wizards website...) and that the books don't actually teach you how to play the game, and just assume you already know what dnd is like.
Yes, I do think its worth it. I think the Starter Set is fantastic for what it is. I think the adventure itself is great and the lite rules are a perfect reference manual for new players and DM's who are trying it out. The rule book does not teach you how to play D&D...the module does. The first chapter holds your bike as a DM all the way through as you catch your balance. The second chapter fleshes out the town very well and gives you a bunch of NPC's with glaring exclamation marks over their heads. The third runs alongside you as you ride, giving tips and encouragement and the final dungeon lets go and proudly watches you ride off around the corner.
I have decades of experience playing RPG's, mostly D&D. My group went hard and deep into 3.5e. I was the first one to get fed up with it. I bought the 4e books at great expense (after playing pbp's here!) and played a grand total of 1.25 sessions. My group didn't like it/didn't give it a fair shot. That fine and dandy, but I was still out $100+ for the books. When it came time for me to show them 5e, I damn sure wasn't dropping $$$ again. The Starter Set was perfect to show them the revised rules, how it was closer to 3.5 than 4e and to sell them on the game. We didn't need it to learn the game, just to have a reminder of what D&D can be. Only after we committed to playing a campaign did I buy a PHB, and so did two others.
I'm now using the Starter Set again to bring along a new group of new players, and so far its going very well! One of the brand new players even asked to take his pre-gen home with him as he was going to get the PHB and try to figure out how it was made. So... yeah. Worth $20.00
Just had the first night of my campaign. It went pretty smoothly, although I've never seen such repeatedly bad rolls. Like, all these investigation/insight rolls kept coming up under 7 and I'm like... trying to feed them information they need.
Combat was a little rough because I didn't realize the owner likes to close the shop at 10 on tuesdays, so the end got a little clipped, but I think it still went well.
Then I got home and checked facebook and apparently the store is closing down.
I wanted to "Awesome" your post but then that last line made me feel awful for doing it ...
Glad the game was fun at least? Just ... wow that sucks. Anywhere else to play?
My guys are gonna run into a corridor full of Gibbering Mouthers in a boarding house under the effects of a mass sleep spell cast by a cult who are enabling and worshiping a Night Hag (Who they themselves have only seen in their nightmares). She couldn't give a crap about them beyond harvesting their plump souls.
If they don't just wander off and do something else.
Schadenfreude on
Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
+2
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Yea $20 for a night or two of entertainment and as an introduction to D&D? I think it's a much better jumping off point for a new group than folks shelling out for the full books. Especially since a set of dice is $5-$10 by themselves at a game store.
Yea $20 for a night or two of entertainment and as an introduction to D&D? I think it's a much better jumping off point for a new group than folks shelling out for the full books. Especially since a set of dice is $5-$10 by themselves at a game store.
You spend more for the fleeting entertainment of a movie with snacks at the cinema.
And if you really don't want to spend money, the basic rules are online for free, there are free starter adventures online, and many free dice apps for your device of choice. The official D&D website is a labyrinthine garbage fire so good luck finding what you need, but it's there. Somewhere.
Now the basic rules aren't super great at teaching you how to play the game, but I'm of the opinion that most RPGs are terrible at teaching you how to play them. The entire hobby lives and dies based on seeing other people play it and/or playing with someone that already "knows how" which in and of itself can be pretty hit or miss.
My guys are gonna run into a corridor full of Gibbering Mouthers in a boarding house under the effects of a mass sleep spell cast by a cult who are enabling and worshiping a Night Hag (Who they themselves have only seen in their nightmares). She couldn't give a crap about them beyond harvesting their plump souls.
If they don't just wander off and do something else.
I am also running game tonight. The group cleared a two story house of bandits and began the descent into the hidden cellar. There's very little in the cellar but if they hurry, our first magic bandit makes an appearance, then disappears.
And that's the extend of my planning.
I'll report back tomorrow that they didn't even make it to the mage.
Just had the first night of my campaign. It went pretty smoothly, although I've never seen such repeatedly bad rolls. Like, all these investigation/insight rolls kept coming up under 7 and I'm like... trying to feed them information they need.
Combat was a little rough because I didn't realize the owner likes to close the shop at 10 on tuesdays, so the end got a little clipped, but I think it still went well.
Then I got home and checked facebook and apparently the store is closing down.
I wanted to "Awesome" your post but then that last line made me feel awful for doing it ...
Glad the game was fun at least? Just ... wow that sucks. Anywhere else to play?
I think the owner is looking for a new location with better rent. I don't know when it's closing, but i might be able to run MY game from my office at least. The cleaning people come on Tuesdays though.
My players are a halfling bard and human wizard, both assigned to a unit of the capital guard, colloquially known as the Outcast Brigade because it's pretty much the lowest you can be demoted without being discharged. It's supposed to be the division where all the oddball races get segregated to (I had one NPC say "oh great, they sent the diversity hires to drive the point home).
But they got an assignment to investigate reports of a thief. There were three reports, and the successfully eliminated the two red herrings before tracking down the plot relevant NPC, who got attacked by a scythe wielding specter. Combat was super awkward because we started the fight at 10pm, and I thought the store was open to 11, but the owner said we could finish up. Plus I was super rusty and also juggling 3/5ths of the combatants.
Since I knew I only had a wizard and a bard, I made a level 1 fighter to assist in combat to represent a player who is joining next week. But it meant I was running the enemy, the NPC, and the fighter while trying not to smoke my players (with 7 and 9 HP).
I had to quicktime-event the end of the fight so we could reach a decent stopping point and let the shop close up, but I'm still happy with everything leading up to that point.
With all this talk about how the D&D starters kit doesn't do enough to teach you how to play, I'm imagining the fiasco if someone leveled the same criticisms at football; a quick glance at the cost of little league football gear suggests that you would pay a couple of hundred dollars for basic equipment and a pig skin and yet at no time is any effort made by the manufacturers to teach you how the game is played.
With all this talk about how the D&D starters kit doesn't do enough to teach you how to play, I'm imagining the fiasco if someone leveled the same criticisms at football; a quick glance at the cost of little league football gear suggests that you would pay a couple of hundred dollars for basic equipment and a pig skin and yet at no time is any effort made by the manufacturers to teach you how the game is played.
Well, if Spalding was like "Hey we just updated football to the most imaginative edition of football ever! Buy this American Football Fifth Edition Starter Set and gather twenty of your friends! Rulings not rules! Oh and if you find that you like starter football and want to play the full game, buy this other stuff too. And then buy Football Beyond subscriptions and content too. And while you're at it buy it again on Football20. And then one more time on FootballGrounds. Oh and you're going to need to buy the next season of football when that comes out. Unless you just want to make up your own season but that's a lot of work..."
And then Adidas was like "No, Ballfinder 2 is coming out soon, that's where it's at. Plus our FRD is totally free."
And a bunch of people on the internet were all "Actually I think Football World is probably a more cinematic version of football and it takes way less work on the part of the referee." Except other people were like "I don't know I think Football World is probably the weakest of the Powered by Your Actual Physical Body games. Basketballs in the Dark is fantastic." And then another person is all "Is that even a PbYAPB game? Plus you could always just use SPORT." But of course they don't spell it SPORT anymore it's just Sport and no plays Sport anymore; its moment in the sun ended as soon as the Kickstarter was over.
Do they not teach the rules of american sports in american schools any more? When roleplaying games are a required course in public school, I'll forgive WotC for having a shoddy onboarding experience.
And if you really don't want to spend money, the basic rules are online for free, there are free starter adventures online, and many free dice apps for your device of choice. The official D&D website is a labyrinthine garbage fire so good luck finding what you need, but it's there. Somewhere.
Now the basic rules aren't super great at teaching you how to play the game, but I'm of the opinion that most RPGs are terrible at teaching you how to play them. The entire hobby lives and dies based on seeing other people play it and/or playing with someone that already "knows how" which in and of itself can be pretty hit or miss.
But that's kind off my problem though - The rules booklet in the starter kit is free online on the website. the character sheets that are in the starter key are free online on the wotc website. the only thing that's not legally available for free in the starter kit is a 64 page booklet adventure and a set of dice. The price point for what's in the box just feels weird to me. compared to the rest of the books, which are 50 bucks for a 250 page hardcover book.
Now I can agree with your second statement, which is my point - that's where my problems with 5e lies as this juggernaut to get people in to this game. That the best product to get people to learn and improve to play your game for new people isn't the 3 core books that explain the specific system you're playing.
Obviously this is a problem - wotc knows this is a problem otherwise they wouldn't have gone through the effort to make the starter-kit. Because they know, getting the beautifully illustrated "rulebooks" doesn't get you to play the game. Or on the other part buying a beautifully illustrated adventure won't get you to play the game either.
Now I like that their are pre-gen character sheets in the starter kit - I just don't like that their aren't any options to make your own characters to run phandelver with. Which is a pillar for the freedom of choice for pnp-rpgs.
The one thing That I liked about the starter kit is that it came with a box to store stuff in... even though its in the US A4 letter format. and not proper A4, even when sold in europe.
The 5e starter set is kind of sad compared to the 4e one yes (no battle mats, no monster tokens) but it's still a decent price for what's in it just in terms of the printing. It has a 64 page full color booklet, a 32 page full color booklet and some character sheets. Good luck printing out "free" PDFs at kinkos in color for a comparable price.
Also the adventure in it is far, far better than any other 5e adventure released before Tomb of Annihilation and is much easier to get into than ToA. Though that is more a statement on how bad most of the rest were but still....
Do they not teach the rules of american sports in american schools any more? When roleplaying games are a required course in public school, I'll forgive WotC for having a shoddy onboarding experience.
Roleplaying games as a course would actually be fucking baller and certainly more useful then a lot of courses I took in highschool.
Like lets look at what we can get out of them:
1. Team work
2. scene construction
3. acting
4. comprehension of risk reward
5. writing
6. empathy
7. extra personal perspective.
All things that can be extrapolated and applied to a broad base of other skills.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Unless you go out for the actual sport you only learn the basics in general physical education. Especially football with its convoluted rules. Baseball and soccer are much simpler. To their betterment.
Thanks for the responses to my question a few pages back - I have been playing 5e for a few years now. I still feel that the starter-set is a horrible product. honestly do you think 20,- for a set of dice and 64 page adventure is worth it? (the rest is available for free on the wizards website...) and that the books don't actually teach you how to play the game, and just assume you already know what dnd is like.
Yes, I do think its worth it. I think the Starter Set is fantastic for what it is. I think the adventure itself is great and the lite rules are a perfect reference manual for new players and DM's who are trying it out. The rule book does not teach you how to play D&D...the module does. The first chapter holds your bike as a DM all the way through as you catch your balance. The second chapter fleshes out the town very well and gives you a bunch of NPC's with glaring exclamation marks over their heads. The third runs alongside you as you ride, giving tips and encouragement and the final dungeon lets go and proudly watches you ride off around the corner.
I have decades of experience playing RPG's, mostly D&D. My group went hard and deep into 3.5e. I was the first one to get fed up with it. I bought the 4e books at great expense (after playing pbp's here!) and played a grand total of 1.25 sessions. My group didn't like it/didn't give it a fair shot. That fine and dandy, but I was still out $100+ for the books. When it came time for me to show them 5e, I damn sure wasn't dropping $$$ again. The Starter Set was perfect to show them the revised rules, how it was closer to 3.5 than 4e and to sell them on the game. We didn't need it to learn the game, just to have a reminder of what D&D can be. Only after we committed to playing a campaign did I buy a PHB, and so did two others.
I'm now using the Starter Set again to bring along a new group of new players, and so far its going very well! One of the brand new players even asked to take his pre-gen home with him as he was going to get the PHB and try to figure out how it was made. So... yeah. Worth $20.00
As someone who bought the Starter Set with the intention of teaching new players how to play, having never before run a game, I can give some insight to how this goes *without* decades of experience backing it up.
Attempt #1:
An avid fan of Critical Role offers to DM for a few friends of mine. We use the starter set. He reads the booklet provided multiple times. Is aware of the basics of play (having watched Critical Role for hundreds of hours). Has all the maps drawn out on big graph paper. Has minis available for everyone. Price was not a concern, but having an easy to run adventure was.
In the first encounter with the goblins and the cart, the module says that the goblins start on the top of an embankment. He has 2 goblins slide down to attack us in melee, and 2 goblins stay up top to pelt us with arrows. I decide to try to climb the embankment. The module does not suggest a height to the embankment. It does not suggest a DC for climbing it. And yet, why would it highlight that if it's meaningless and can be scaled with no difficulty? Obviously we have to be over looking something. Cue rule look ups, pauses, re-reading the module, etc. The DM is never really told "Hey, just make some shit up!", and instead is left floundering.
Constantly, the module highlights something to be read to your players, only to provide literally zero follow up information. If you have decades of RPG experience (running or playing), this is not a problem. If you're looking to buy something to learn with, to have your hand held...it's not ideal.
Attempt #2:
After the above DM decided it was too hard and anxiety inducing to run D&D, I said to myself, in my infinite arrogance, I bet I could do better! I picked up the starter module and got some friends over. We got through the initial combat ok, but rather than pursue the goblins into the cave as my group had done, my players decided the ambush was too scary and they wanted to continue on to the town before returning to investigate the goblin infestation.
I hadn't read that far into the module yet. No worries! I'm sure I'll be able to pick it up as we go! I know the basics of the plot, having seen it from the player side!
Only to find that there are zero motivations included for any of the NPCs. There are zero listed connections between the NPCs. Some of the NPC notes include ideas on how to play as the characters, others are just lists of descriptors and that's literally it.
Again, if you have decades of experience, that's probably all you need to go on. If you're a new DM, already focusing super hard on trying to have your players have fun and have a good time, not having some kind of framework to use to build on when your players ask your NPCs weird ass questions...it's panic inducing. I'm lucky that my job often has me dealing in customer service-adjacent functions, so I can keep a straight face even while my brain is in full on shit-my-pants panic mode. But seriously, this module throws your straight into the woods with no supplies and just says "The woods are dark and dangerous and smell of elderberry and there's a huge Statue that seems SUPER important" and then that's it.
Attempt #3:
I've now purchased the PHB, the DMG, and the starter set from above. I had to shell out the starter set cash again to have it in Roll20 so that I could host sessions for friends online instead of having friends come over, but now that I have a little experience under my belt, I'm able to figure out where the module is lacking info, where the story seems flat and boring (basically, everywhere), and how to hook players into the various set pieces more effectively. I end up basically only keeping the combat encounters in place (hugely modifying the first ambush scene into a player ambushing the goblins instead of vice versa) and re-writing all other fiction and story elements to make a more cohesive and satisfying experience.
If you run it as written, the party likely won't give a solitary F about any of your villains except maybe the Red Cloaks (who will get chumped super early and easily, especially in comparison to everything else). If you're looking to run a module with a satisfying over-arching narrative, the bones of something decent are here, but you're left extremely on your own to fill in some major details and make your party give any sort of shit about the enemies here.
Also, as a new DM, the module opens with *several* potential gotcha moments that can catch you off guard:
1 - The initial combat, if you run it as written, with the goblins starting in stealth and ambushing the players, is potentially super duper fatal. Fudge rolls like mad and run the goblins like idiots.
2 - If the party presses on after the goblin ambush (a risk if you downplay the ambush, or if they have great rolls during the ambush, or if the party feels like they're supposed to investigate before pushing on), they will likely get to the encounter in the Cragmaw Hideout, where if they are still level 1, they will almost certainly die. The final encounter involves a bugbear and multiple other combatants. Even at level 2, this is likely to be lethal. A bugbear alone can do 4 to 18(!) damage in a single attack, and your players are likely to be able to survive, at best, two of those attacks from full health. Most classes can't take even that much damage at level 2. If the bugbear rolls a crit, that PC is probably dead, and if they were already wounded, might be dead straight up from max damage. Run this guy stupid and attack your party's thickest tank, and maybe also fudge some dice rolls.
3 - In the initial trip from Goblin Ambush Site to Cragmaw Hideout, there is a trap. There is never another trap that I noticed in the module. The goblins have a surprise in the hideout, but it's less a trap and more a stealth-failure penalty. Consider just deleting it. My players were CONSTANTLY vigilant after that. Which was funny initially, but got old real quick, and can never really be fixed by the DM saying "come on guys, you rolled high enough perception, there's nothing to find here".
I have a host of other complaints about the module in terms of teaching a new person how to run a game for players, but those are the ones I can sum up easily. As it stands now, I never recommend anyone getting the starter set if they are a new DM looking to teach new players how to play D&D. It's $20 for a set of dice and some maps, because it sure as shit isn't going to hold your hand along the process of running a game. If you are an existing DM, looking for a simple module with some decent maps, and a decent framework to build off of for new players, it's not a bad value at $20.
Be warned, however, that 2 of the maps included are not in 5'/square scale, and are instead in 10'/square scale. This is not hugely meaningful for the physical version, but if you buy the roll20 version, it is straight infuriating and requires a lot of fudging to get approximately correct.
As for suggesting alternatives...I don't really have any for wanna-be-DMs that isn't basically....watch a shit load of content by various DMs on youtube (C Team / Crit Role / Dice Camera Action, plus Colville and others), read a shit load of content by various DM helpers (theAngryGM, SlyGM, etc), and find a decent one shot module on DMG for $5 or less. I usually just send them one of my adventure modules (I have a bunch of one shot modules that are way more explicit about things like info / DCs / NPC relationships, etc, and I also have "dungeons" that are designed to be a full levels worth of content at any given level).
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
Thanks for the responses to my question a few pages back - I have been playing 5e for a few years now. I still feel that the starter-set is a horrible product. honestly do you think 20,- for a set of dice and 64 page adventure is worth it? (the rest is available for free on the wizards website...) and that the books don't actually teach you how to play the game, and just assume you already know what dnd is like.
Yes, I do think its worth it. I think the Starter Set is fantastic for what it is. I think the adventure itself is great and the lite rules are a perfect reference manual for new players and DM's who are trying it out. The rule book does not teach you how to play D&D...the module does. The first chapter holds your bike as a DM all the way through as you catch your balance. The second chapter fleshes out the town very well and gives you a bunch of NPC's with glaring exclamation marks over their heads. The third runs alongside you as you ride, giving tips and encouragement and the final dungeon lets go and proudly watches you ride off around the corner.
I have decades of experience playing RPG's, mostly D&D. My group went hard and deep into 3.5e. I was the first one to get fed up with it. I bought the 4e books at great expense (after playing pbp's here!) and played a grand total of 1.25 sessions. My group didn't like it/didn't give it a fair shot. That fine and dandy, but I was still out $100+ for the books. When it came time for me to show them 5e, I damn sure wasn't dropping $$$ again. The Starter Set was perfect to show them the revised rules, how it was closer to 3.5 than 4e and to sell them on the game. We didn't need it to learn the game, just to have a reminder of what D&D can be. Only after we committed to playing a campaign did I buy a PHB, and so did two others.
I'm now using the Starter Set again to bring along a new group of new players, and so far its going very well! One of the brand new players even asked to take his pre-gen home with him as he was going to get the PHB and try to figure out how it was made. So... yeah. Worth $20.00
As someone who bought the Starter Set with the intention of teaching new players how to play, having never before run a game, I can give some insight to how this goes *without* decades of experience backing it up.
Attempt #1:
An avid fan of Critical Role offers to DM for a few friends of mine. We use the starter set. He reads the booklet provided multiple times. Is aware of the basics of play (having watched Critical Role for hundreds of hours). Has all the maps drawn out on big graph paper. Has minis available for everyone. Price was not a concern, but having an easy to run adventure was.
In the first encounter with the goblins and the cart, the module says that the goblins start on the top of an embankment. He has 2 goblins slide down to attack us in melee, and 2 goblins stay up top to pelt us with arrows. I decide to try to climb the embankment. The module does not suggest a height to the embankment. It does not suggest a DC for climbing it. And yet, why would it highlight that if it's meaningless and can be scaled with no difficulty? Obviously we have to be over looking something. Cue rule look ups, pauses, re-reading the module, etc. The DM is never really told "Hey, just make some shit up!", and instead is left floundering.
Constantly, the module highlights something to be read to your players, only to provide literally zero follow up information. If you have decades of RPG experience (running or playing), this is not a problem. If you're looking to buy something to learn with, to have your hand held...it's not ideal.
Attempt #2:
After the above DM decided it was too hard and anxiety inducing to run D&D, I said to myself, in my infinite arrogance, I bet I could do better! I picked up the starter module and got some friends over. We got through the initial combat ok, but rather than pursue the goblins into the cave as my group had done, my players decided the ambush was too scary and they wanted to continue on to the town before returning to investigate the goblin infestation.
I hadn't read that far into the module yet. No worries! I'm sure I'll be able to pick it up as we go! I know the basics of the plot, having seen it from the player side!
Only to find that there are zero motivations included for any of the NPCs. There are zero listed connections between the NPCs. Some of the NPC notes include ideas on how to play as the characters, others are just lists of descriptors and that's literally it.
Again, if you have decades of experience, that's probably all you need to go on. If you're a new DM, already focusing super hard on trying to have your players have fun and have a good time, not having some kind of framework to use to build on when your players ask your NPCs weird ass questions...it's panic inducing. I'm lucky that my job often has me dealing in customer service-adjacent functions, so I can keep a straight face even while my brain is in full on shit-my-pants panic mode. But seriously, this module throws your straight into the woods with no supplies and just says "The woods are dark and dangerous and smell of elderberry and there's a huge Statue that seems SUPER important" and then that's it.
Attempt #3:
I've now purchased the PHB, the DMG, and the starter set from above. I had to shell out the starter set cash again to have it in Roll20 so that I could host sessions for friends online instead of having friends come over, but now that I have a little experience under my belt, I'm able to figure out where the module is lacking info, where the story seems flat and boring (basically, everywhere), and how to hook players into the various set pieces more effectively. I end up basically only keeping the combat encounters in place (hugely modifying the first ambush scene into a player ambushing the goblins instead of vice versa) and re-writing all other fiction and story elements to make a more cohesive and satisfying experience.
If you run it as written, the party likely won't give a solitary F about any of your villains except maybe the Red Cloaks (who will get chumped super early and easily, especially in comparison to everything else). If you're looking to run a module with a satisfying over-arching narrative, the bones of something decent are here, but you're left extremely on your own to fill in some major details and make your party give any sort of shit about the enemies here.
Also, as a new DM, the module opens with *several* potential gotcha moments that can catch you off guard:
1 - The initial combat, if you run it as written, with the goblins starting in stealth and ambushing the players, is potentially super duper fatal. Fudge rolls like mad and run the goblins like idiots.
2 - If the party presses on after the goblin ambush (a risk if you downplay the ambush, or if they have great rolls during the ambush, or if the party feels like they're supposed to investigate before pushing on), they will likely get to the encounter in the Cragmaw Hideout, where if they are still level 1, they will almost certainly die. The final encounter involves a bugbear and multiple other combatants. Even at level 2, this is likely to be lethal. A bugbear alone can do 4 to 18(!) damage in a single attack, and your players are likely to be able to survive, at best, two of those attacks from full health. Most classes can't take even that much damage at level 2. If the bugbear rolls a crit, that PC is probably dead, and if they were already wounded, might be dead straight up from max damage. Run this guy stupid and attack your party's thickest tank, and maybe also fudge some dice rolls.
3 - In the initial trip from Goblin Ambush Site to Cragmaw Hideout, there is a trap. There is never another trap that I noticed in the module. The goblins have a surprise in the hideout, but it's less a trap and more a stealth-failure penalty. Consider just deleting it. My players were CONSTANTLY vigilant after that. Which was funny initially, but got old real quick, and can never really be fixed by the DM saying "come on guys, you rolled high enough perception, there's nothing to find here".
I have a host of other complaints about the module in terms of teaching a new person how to run a game for players, but those are the ones I can sum up easily. As it stands now, I never recommend anyone getting the starter set if they are a new DM looking to teach new players how to play D&D. It's $20 for a set of dice and some maps, because it sure as shit isn't going to hold your hand along the process of running a game. If you are an existing DM, looking for a simple module with some decent maps, and a decent framework to build off of for new players, it's not a bad value at $20.
Be warned, however, that 2 of the maps included are not in 5'/square scale, and are instead in 10'/square scale. This is not hugely meaningful for the physical version, but if you buy the roll20 version, it is straight infuriating and requires a lot of fudging to get approximately correct.
As for suggesting alternatives...I don't really have any for wanna-be-DMs that isn't basically....watch a shit load of content by various DMs on youtube (C Team / Crit Role / Dice Camera Action, plus Colville and others), read a shit load of content by various DM helpers (theAngryGM, SlyGM, etc), and find a decent one shot module on DMG for $5 or less. I usually just send them one of my adventure modules (I have a bunch of one shot modules that are way more explicit about things like info / DCs / NPC relationships, etc, and I also have "dungeons" that are designed to be a full levels worth of content at any given level).
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
That's a different issue though. I'm responding to the idea that keeping track of your HP between sessions is too hard, or un-fun or whatever. Keeping track of how many HP you have left and how many spell slots remain from last session when returning to game this session does not seem like such an onerous task that it requires altering the rules or rethinking the design philosophy of the next edition D&D.
The point was never that it was 'too hard', just that designing the length of an adventuring day to be longer than the expected session length so that you reliably have to track that stuff is a poor design practice.
Consider a game console that was designed so that you could only open the drive to swap your game out if you first physically unplug the console from the wall. Is it 'too hard' to do? No. Is it such an 'onerous task' that it ruins the console? No. It's just a minor, unnecessary hassle, and part of good design is about eliminating those minor unnecessary hassles by being aware of the way the thing you are designing is going to be used.
Maybe I skimmed over the start of this conversation and I missed the importance of it but...
I don't think the design philosophy around adventuring days has anything to do with the fact that its 11pm and Timmy's mom needs him to come home right fucking now. Or the session bogged down in the middle and we just can't get to the big boss this week, so it'll have to wait until next. Or any number of scenarios that means the C's don't get a full rest before the P's have to split up and go their separate ways until next time.
I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
That's a different issue though. I'm responding to the idea that keeping track of your HP between sessions is too hard, or un-fun or whatever. Keeping track of how many HP you have left and how many spell slots remain from last session when returning to game this session does not seem like such an onerous task that it requires altering the rules or rethinking the design philosophy of the next edition D&D.
The point was never that it was 'too hard', just that designing the length of an adventuring day to be longer than the expected session length so that you reliably have to track that stuff is a poor design practice.
Consider a game console that was designed so that you could only open the drive to swap your game out if you first physically unplug the console from the wall. Is it 'too hard' to do? No. Is it such an 'onerous task' that it ruins the console? No. It's just a minor, unnecessary hassle, and part of good design is about eliminating those minor unnecessary hassles by being aware of the way the thing you are designing is going to be used.
I suppose that's fair, although I think a more appropriate video game analogy would be "save anywhere" vs. "checkpoint".
Still, in this case I think there's a mountain/molehill situation going on here here but that's just my opinion.
I think I agree with JustTee's assessment. All I can say as an old-timer is that original D&D on up through 3.5 were even worse for a newbie :P
Hell, the problem with the 5e adventures released until very recently is that they were half-assed reskins of old tournament adventures or meat-grinders. EG: against the giants, temple of elemental evil etc... The adventure in the newbie box is trying so hard to be Keep on the Borderlands.
Are there any RPGs that are good for newbie GMs though?
I've read through quite a few of them over the years, and while some I think have systems that are maybe a bit easier than D&D, and maybe do a better job getting the players to roleplay. I can't think of any I've looked at and thought they looked substantially easier to GM than D&D. Especially with a group of entirely new players that are generally passive observers more than co-authors.
With all this talk about how the D&D starters kit doesn't do enough to teach you how to play, I'm imagining the fiasco if someone leveled the same criticisms at football; a quick glance at the cost of little league football gear suggests that you would pay a couple of hundred dollars for basic equipment and a pig skin and yet at no time is any effort made by the manufacturers to teach you how the game is played.
Little league football has trained coaches and refs as part of the package. What anarchist football leagues are you sending children to? Are you running some weird tween fightclub?
An actual question about the playing of D&D (5e) approaches.
I've begun playing with a new group, and I've made a cleric because I haven't done one before. Can somebody give me a yes/no on whether I'm understanding the magic rules for 'em correctly?
Instead of needing to pick and choose which spells I know, I have access to every cleric spell that I have a slot of the requisite level for.
But I still can only pick (level + WIS) of them to "Prepare" per long rest (day?), which are the ones my god is willing to let me cast for that period.
(subpoint): This does not include Domain spells appropriate to my level, which are considered as always being prepared though casting them does use up a slot.
(subpoint): the god may supercede my choices and say "You know what, I'm going to mandate that you have this one available, just because."
Slot use for casting is the same as any other magic user.
Can a cleric pick and choose new cantrips each day this way? It seems during character creation that you pick your cantrips before picking leveled spells, and the all-access spell selection rules come into play during the Level 1 spell description.
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An actual question about the playing of D&D (5e) approaches.
I've begun playing with a new group, and I've made a cleric because I haven't done one before. Can somebody give me a yes/no on whether I'm understanding the magic rules for 'em correctly?
Instead of needing to pick and choose which spells I know, I have access to every cleric spell that I have a slot of the requisite level for.
But I still can only pick (level + WIS) of them to "Prepare" per long rest (day?), which are the ones my god is willing to let me cast for that period.
(subpoint): This does not include Domain spells appropriate to my level, which are considered as always being prepared though casting them does use up a slot.
(subpoint): the god may supercede my choices and say "You know what, I'm going to mandate that you have this one available, just because."
Slot use for casting is the same as any other magic user.
Can a cleric pick and choose new cantrips each day this way? It seems during character creation that you pick your cantrips before picking leveled spells, and the all-access spell selection rules come into play during the Level 1 spell description.
You have to pick the cantrips you know and that doesn't change per day. You don't have to prepare them, though. I don't think you have the option to swap them later, as some other classes do.
I don't really think Lost Mines of Phandelver is the best thats been put out in 5e, its a great little starter module though. What it really needs though is to tell the DM that if its not written, or if you dont know it, just go with something. It doesn't matter if its wrong. If it is, and you find out, change it later - no big deal.
I mean, it's a shame that Tomb is the only one that really gives you a good idea how to run it if you're inexperienced, but if anyone knows anyone who wants to get started I cannot recommend this enough:
Slyfourish's site. I love this site, it's helped me so much as a DM, that and the "tomb of annihilation companion". For example, this site suggests in Storm King's thunder to just only do one of the first 3 towns, whichever two your players dont go to are either sacked by giants or saved by other heroes/the lords alliance (whos leadership are explicitly too busy bickering to get to the bottom of things).
Tomb does a much better job but I'm still glad I grabbed some supplements with guides and helpful suggestions like, dont roll random bullshit, pre-plan your party's days, and pre select random non important stuff from the random table, this makes sure players get a varied experience and dont get artus at level 1 trivializing the module
Curse of Strahd is very good but like Mines or SKT, you need help if you're not a very experienced DM to do it justice
I would literally run anything other then Curse for a group of new players; it's a great module but the signature aspect of the ravenloft setting is supposed to be that it's an inversion of the typical expierience in D&D. In every other one you're a big god damn hero who's going to shit stomp the baddies into submission, but in curse you very quickly learn that this is a setting that will obliterate you if you try to be bold and brash.
Like, the first hostile encounter my group of 5 level 1s had was against 5 dire wolves; 1 of them would have been a serious threat but 5 was TPK for sure in session 1.
I don't really think Lost Mines of Phandelver is the best thats been put out in 5e, its a great little starter module though. What it really needs though is to tell the DM that if its not written, or if you dont know it, just go with something. It doesn't matter if its wrong. If it is, and you find out, change it later - no big deal.
To be fair to Phandelver - on the first page before you start reading the adventure, there are a bunch of DM tips. the first of which is: If you don't know something make something up, its more important to keep the pace going then to stop everything to figure out the correct answer. (paraphrasing).
Which is good advice in the dnd zeitgeist and how its run by experienced players, even if I disagree that this type of advice is exactly what makes teaching/designing/player new player content such a mess.
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joshgotroDeviled EggThe Land of REAL CHILIRegistered Userregular
My guys are gonna run into a corridor full of Gibbering Mouthers in a boarding house under the effects of a mass sleep spell cast by a cult who are enabling and worshiping a Night Hag (Who they themselves have only seen in their nightmares). She couldn't give a crap about them beyond harvesting their plump souls.
If they don't just wander off and do something else.
I am also running game tonight. The group cleared a two story house of bandits and began the descent into the hidden cellar. There's very little in the cellar but if they hurry, our first magic bandit makes an appearance, then disappears.
And that's the extend of my planning.
I'll report back tomorrow that they didn't even make it to the mage.
The group found the mage. He was on the other side of a ring gate, casting fireball at them. They figured out how to bypass the danger and shut down the gate but they kept the exit ring.
Then, after a quick recapping of their actions over the past three days of in game time, decided as a group to find the local authority, and take claim for eight murders, a barn burning, and sending two kids strapped to a horse, back to the closes town.
It was a fantastic night of building out the port town with a merchantile guild, a group of "lawmen", and growing the black market dealer NPC to be a bigger part of this town than just a person who sells poisons and random magic items.
Session ends with the group finding the current location of the mark they were originally hunting for a bounty, a task of routing the greater bandit issue, and finding the mage.
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I don't think it does either. I also don't remember how we got onto the subject. To be clear I don't have a problem running sessions right now. I love a good cliffhanger and the bookkeeping really doesn't stress me out. I just think it would be nice if some page space was dedicated to laying out what the designers think an average session looks like, along with advice on how you might modify the pacing and structure of the game if your sessions are shorter/longer/less frequent/more frequent/whatever. You know stuff like "Is your session only a couple hours? Here's how to adjust XP values to cut out filler encounters, and how you can modify most monsters to shorten the encounters you do have."
Like removing resistances and immunities which are objectively the worst mechanics in every edition of D&D.
For me it depends, it's fine for a dungeon crawl, as long as the dungeon crawl is bookended by travelling and RP
But even a dungeon, at least any good published one, has all kinds of stuff in it that isn't fighting between the fighting (and can usually be circumvented easily by blowing resources)
I think I've come up with a compromise
I will take the median of their party exp and that will be the party's "Exp", which I will add to after encounters (combat and otherwise), this solves my biggest problem as a DM which is players that cannot always attend being super weak. Players that have more experience than the "party exp" need to keep track of it, otherwise, that's what their exp is now
We already got through a mid-game argument where the city was attacked by zombies, but they had successfully prevented the zombies from entering the city (which I awarded them exp for) and now it was just a matter of the guards picking them off over a period of a few days from the thick walls
the Monk jumps off the wall and starts fighting a desperate battle against zombies for no reason, and the party joins him, blowing all of their resources. I gave them all zero experience for this. My rationale is that I don't think "farming experience" should ever be a thing in Dungeons & Dragons, it's a necessary evil in video games that have it, it is not the point of the game. They had no reason to fight, they were well aware there was no reason to engage them directly, and it got a bunch of soldiers killed as the guards rushed out to help them (thinking that they might die, and since these guys have saved the city twice, they must know something the guards dont). They turned a successful quest into a war for survival for literally no reason with EXP as the motivating factor, so I think I was justified in awarding no experience for this (fuck I should assign NEGATIVE experience because it was a dumbass thing to do)
Crawford has clarified that the game is not balanced around 6-8 combat encounters per adventuring day, that's merely the limit you can expect your players to be able to handle. You shouldn't be stuffing in combat encounters where they don't make sense, and when you have a bunch of them in a row, keep that number in mind.
But there's never going to be a great challenge rating system when a party could either be 5 life clerics or 5 sharpshooter crossbow fighters, which trivialize entirely different kinds of encounters
We got onto the subject because we were talking about how the 6/8 encounters per adventuring day wasn't accurate and not to expect an adventuring day to go that long, followed by some discussion of the fact that 'adventuring day' and 'session length' aren't the same thing, followed by me mentioning that that's true, but they probably should have been designed to be, at least for the average session length (a piece of data WotC is fully capable of gathering and almost certainly already knows) or the length of a standard AL session (2 or 4 hours), because it gives a natural stopping/starting point, makes AL-style games start and end cleanly, and reduces paperwork and trying to e.g. remember how much HP you still had at the end of the last session three weeks ago.
Obviously there are plenty of scenarios where a session is going to deviate from the 'designed-for' length, but whatever that length was, it doesn't seem to be the length most people actually play for.
I'm still annoyed that they started finding mechanically-cool ways to represent the concept (this thing gets an extra reaction attack if it takes fire damage, but can't take minor actions if it takes cold damage!) and then still completely reverted back to the old half damage/double damage with 5e.
Even though it is admittedly satisfying to smite something with a radiant vulnerability.
That's a different issue though. I'm responding to the idea that keeping track of your HP between sessions is too hard, or un-fun or whatever. Keeping track of how many HP you have left and how many spell slots remain from last session when returning to game this session does not seem like such an onerous task that it requires altering the rules or rethinking the design philosophy of the next edition D&D.
Oh okay sure I can agree with you there. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to want to minimize bookkeeping, so long as it's not at the expense of other more important things. It is kind of annoying sometimes, but I would liken it to boardgame components tumbling around inside a box when you try to shelve it. Sure it's annoying, but if the design team would have to sacrifice time spent on more important stuff to address that issue, I'd rather they not.
Combat was a little rough because I didn't realize the owner likes to close the shop at 10 on tuesdays, so the end got a little clipped, but I think it still went well.
Then I got home and checked facebook and apparently the store is closing down.
Personally I like to end my sessions on either a complication to the quest or on the resolution. I really hate ending after a frivolous encounter because sure you get the high of some cool treasure, but its kinda meaningless, and there's not a lot to look forward to. To the point where sometimes I end sessions an hour earlier than our planned 4 hours. Because having the climax of the session in the first 30/40 minutes really ruins my own energy to continue dming for the rest.
In the first campaign I ran, I once ended a session just before the fight with the big-bad, and that felt a right beat to end on... but it turned out to be a bad beat to start on. Maybe other groups are different - but these kinds of session structure is like super important - in my opinion more important than the exact make up of the bad guys and their damage output, which is something the books seriously lack advice in.
I like ending on roleplaying complications more than on encounters because it gives me more wiggle room to structure the next session... but on the other hand, ending with the coolest/hardest/narratively important combat encounter of the day is the most satisfying for my players.
My party always has the same players so I never end a session or try to end a session back in town at the conclusion of a quest. You get to loot the monster caves, but turning in the reward to the quest giver is the start of the next session, so i can slowly build up tension again for a new climax.
I do always try to end the session at an appropriate time for a long rest when the party is levelling up, so people don't have to worry about bookkeeping with what they've done and available and levelling and learning new skills. But this isn't always narratively pleasing. but i'm a pretty firm believer of levelling the players every 2 sessions - as we get to play once a month, and I don't want people to level their characters mid session. (which I why I just give them the total amount of exp at the end of the session, not after every encounter)
But one thing that I need to do is have a good understanding what the party is going to attempt to do the first thing in the next session, so I can plan something sweet.
Its difficult to structure a 4 hour session in a satisfying way juggling all these different needs - and I don't think the books do a good job of helping the starting dm figure this out.
Yes, I do think its worth it. I think the Starter Set is fantastic for what it is. I think the adventure itself is great and the lite rules are a perfect reference manual for new players and DM's who are trying it out. The rule book does not teach you how to play D&D...the module does. The first chapter holds your bike as a DM all the way through as you catch your balance. The second chapter fleshes out the town very well and gives you a bunch of NPC's with glaring exclamation marks over their heads. The third runs alongside you as you ride, giving tips and encouragement and the final dungeon lets go and proudly watches you ride off around the corner.
I have decades of experience playing RPG's, mostly D&D. My group went hard and deep into 3.5e. I was the first one to get fed up with it. I bought the 4e books at great expense (after playing pbp's here!) and played a grand total of 1.25 sessions. My group didn't like it/didn't give it a fair shot. That fine and dandy, but I was still out $100+ for the books. When it came time for me to show them 5e, I damn sure wasn't dropping $$$ again. The Starter Set was perfect to show them the revised rules, how it was closer to 3.5 than 4e and to sell them on the game. We didn't need it to learn the game, just to have a reminder of what D&D can be. Only after we committed to playing a campaign did I buy a PHB, and so did two others.
I'm now using the Starter Set again to bring along a new group of new players, and so far its going very well! One of the brand new players even asked to take his pre-gen home with him as he was going to get the PHB and try to figure out how it was made. So... yeah. Worth $20.00
I wanted to "Awesome" your post but then that last line made me feel awful for doing it ...
Glad the game was fun at least? Just ... wow that sucks. Anywhere else to play?
My guys are gonna run into a corridor full of Gibbering Mouthers in a boarding house under the effects of a mass sleep spell cast by a cult who are enabling and worshiping a Night Hag (Who they themselves have only seen in their nightmares). She couldn't give a crap about them beyond harvesting their plump souls.
If they don't just wander off and do something else.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
You spend more for the fleeting entertainment of a movie with snacks at the cinema.
Now the basic rules aren't super great at teaching you how to play the game, but I'm of the opinion that most RPGs are terrible at teaching you how to play them. The entire hobby lives and dies based on seeing other people play it and/or playing with someone that already "knows how" which in and of itself can be pretty hit or miss.
I am also running game tonight. The group cleared a two story house of bandits and began the descent into the hidden cellar. There's very little in the cellar but if they hurry, our first magic bandit makes an appearance, then disappears.
And that's the extend of my planning.
I'll report back tomorrow that they didn't even make it to the mage.
I think the owner is looking for a new location with better rent. I don't know when it's closing, but i might be able to run MY game from my office at least. The cleaning people come on Tuesdays though.
My players are a halfling bard and human wizard, both assigned to a unit of the capital guard, colloquially known as the Outcast Brigade because it's pretty much the lowest you can be demoted without being discharged. It's supposed to be the division where all the oddball races get segregated to (I had one NPC say "oh great, they sent the diversity hires to drive the point home).
But they got an assignment to investigate reports of a thief. There were three reports, and the successfully eliminated the two red herrings before tracking down the plot relevant NPC, who got attacked by a scythe wielding specter. Combat was super awkward because we started the fight at 10pm, and I thought the store was open to 11, but the owner said we could finish up. Plus I was super rusty and also juggling 3/5ths of the combatants.
Since I knew I only had a wizard and a bard, I made a level 1 fighter to assist in combat to represent a player who is joining next week. But it meant I was running the enemy, the NPC, and the fighter while trying not to smoke my players (with 7 and 9 HP).
I had to quicktime-event the end of the fight so we could reach a decent stopping point and let the shop close up, but I'm still happy with everything leading up to that point.
Well, if Spalding was like "Hey we just updated football to the most imaginative edition of football ever! Buy this American Football Fifth Edition Starter Set and gather twenty of your friends! Rulings not rules! Oh and if you find that you like starter football and want to play the full game, buy this other stuff too. And then buy Football Beyond subscriptions and content too. And while you're at it buy it again on Football20. And then one more time on FootballGrounds. Oh and you're going to need to buy the next season of football when that comes out. Unless you just want to make up your own season but that's a lot of work..."
And then Adidas was like "No, Ballfinder 2 is coming out soon, that's where it's at. Plus our FRD is totally free."
And a bunch of people on the internet were all "Actually I think Football World is probably a more cinematic version of football and it takes way less work on the part of the referee." Except other people were like "I don't know I think Football World is probably the weakest of the Powered by Your Actual Physical Body games. Basketballs in the Dark is fantastic." And then another person is all "Is that even a PbYAPB game? Plus you could always just use SPORT." But of course they don't spell it SPORT anymore it's just Sport and no plays Sport anymore; its moment in the sun ended as soon as the Kickstarter was over.
...what were we talking about?
But that's kind off my problem though - The rules booklet in the starter kit is free online on the website. the character sheets that are in the starter key are free online on the wotc website. the only thing that's not legally available for free in the starter kit is a 64 page booklet adventure and a set of dice. The price point for what's in the box just feels weird to me. compared to the rest of the books, which are 50 bucks for a 250 page hardcover book.
Now I can agree with your second statement, which is my point - that's where my problems with 5e lies as this juggernaut to get people in to this game. That the best product to get people to learn and improve to play your game for new people isn't the 3 core books that explain the specific system you're playing.
Obviously this is a problem - wotc knows this is a problem otherwise they wouldn't have gone through the effort to make the starter-kit. Because they know, getting the beautifully illustrated "rulebooks" doesn't get you to play the game. Or on the other part buying a beautifully illustrated adventure won't get you to play the game either.
Now I like that their are pre-gen character sheets in the starter kit - I just don't like that their aren't any options to make your own characters to run phandelver with. Which is a pillar for the freedom of choice for pnp-rpgs.
The one thing That I liked about the starter kit is that it came with a box to store stuff in... even though its in the US A4 letter format. and not proper A4, even when sold in europe.
Also the adventure in it is far, far better than any other 5e adventure released before Tomb of Annihilation and is much easier to get into than ToA. Though that is more a statement on how bad most of the rest were but still....
Roleplaying games as a course would actually be fucking baller and certainly more useful then a lot of courses I took in highschool.
Like lets look at what we can get out of them:
1. Team work
2. scene construction
3. acting
4. comprehension of risk reward
5. writing
6. empathy
7. extra personal perspective.
All things that can be extrapolated and applied to a broad base of other skills.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
As someone who bought the Starter Set with the intention of teaching new players how to play, having never before run a game, I can give some insight to how this goes *without* decades of experience backing it up.
Attempt #1:
In the first encounter with the goblins and the cart, the module says that the goblins start on the top of an embankment. He has 2 goblins slide down to attack us in melee, and 2 goblins stay up top to pelt us with arrows. I decide to try to climb the embankment. The module does not suggest a height to the embankment. It does not suggest a DC for climbing it. And yet, why would it highlight that if it's meaningless and can be scaled with no difficulty? Obviously we have to be over looking something. Cue rule look ups, pauses, re-reading the module, etc. The DM is never really told "Hey, just make some shit up!", and instead is left floundering.
Constantly, the module highlights something to be read to your players, only to provide literally zero follow up information. If you have decades of RPG experience (running or playing), this is not a problem. If you're looking to buy something to learn with, to have your hand held...it's not ideal.
Attempt #2:
I hadn't read that far into the module yet. No worries! I'm sure I'll be able to pick it up as we go! I know the basics of the plot, having seen it from the player side!
Only to find that there are zero motivations included for any of the NPCs. There are zero listed connections between the NPCs. Some of the NPC notes include ideas on how to play as the characters, others are just lists of descriptors and that's literally it.
Again, if you have decades of experience, that's probably all you need to go on. If you're a new DM, already focusing super hard on trying to have your players have fun and have a good time, not having some kind of framework to use to build on when your players ask your NPCs weird ass questions...it's panic inducing. I'm lucky that my job often has me dealing in customer service-adjacent functions, so I can keep a straight face even while my brain is in full on shit-my-pants panic mode. But seriously, this module throws your straight into the woods with no supplies and just says "The woods are dark and dangerous and smell of elderberry and there's a huge Statue that seems SUPER important" and then that's it.
Attempt #3:
If you run it as written, the party likely won't give a solitary F about any of your villains except maybe the Red Cloaks (who will get chumped super early and easily, especially in comparison to everything else). If you're looking to run a module with a satisfying over-arching narrative, the bones of something decent are here, but you're left extremely on your own to fill in some major details and make your party give any sort of shit about the enemies here.
Also, as a new DM, the module opens with *several* potential gotcha moments that can catch you off guard:
1 - The initial combat, if you run it as written, with the goblins starting in stealth and ambushing the players, is potentially super duper fatal. Fudge rolls like mad and run the goblins like idiots.
2 - If the party presses on after the goblin ambush (a risk if you downplay the ambush, or if they have great rolls during the ambush, or if the party feels like they're supposed to investigate before pushing on), they will likely get to the encounter in the Cragmaw Hideout, where if they are still level 1, they will almost certainly die. The final encounter involves a bugbear and multiple other combatants. Even at level 2, this is likely to be lethal. A bugbear alone can do 4 to 18(!) damage in a single attack, and your players are likely to be able to survive, at best, two of those attacks from full health. Most classes can't take even that much damage at level 2. If the bugbear rolls a crit, that PC is probably dead, and if they were already wounded, might be dead straight up from max damage. Run this guy stupid and attack your party's thickest tank, and maybe also fudge some dice rolls.
3 - In the initial trip from Goblin Ambush Site to Cragmaw Hideout, there is a trap. There is never another trap that I noticed in the module. The goblins have a surprise in the hideout, but it's less a trap and more a stealth-failure penalty. Consider just deleting it. My players were CONSTANTLY vigilant after that. Which was funny initially, but got old real quick, and can never really be fixed by the DM saying "come on guys, you rolled high enough perception, there's nothing to find here".
I have a host of other complaints about the module in terms of teaching a new person how to run a game for players, but those are the ones I can sum up easily. As it stands now, I never recommend anyone getting the starter set if they are a new DM looking to teach new players how to play D&D. It's $20 for a set of dice and some maps, because it sure as shit isn't going to hold your hand along the process of running a game. If you are an existing DM, looking for a simple module with some decent maps, and a decent framework to build off of for new players, it's not a bad value at $20.
Be warned, however, that 2 of the maps included are not in 5'/square scale, and are instead in 10'/square scale. This is not hugely meaningful for the physical version, but if you buy the roll20 version, it is straight infuriating and requires a lot of fudging to get approximately correct.
As for suggesting alternatives...I don't really have any for wanna-be-DMs that isn't basically....watch a shit load of content by various DMs on youtube (C Team / Crit Role / Dice Camera Action, plus Colville and others), read a shit load of content by various DM helpers (theAngryGM, SlyGM, etc), and find a decent one shot module on DMG for $5 or less. I usually just send them one of my adventure modules (I have a bunch of one shot modules that are way more explicit about things like info / DCs / NPC relationships, etc, and I also have "dungeons" that are designed to be a full levels worth of content at any given level).
This is great info right here.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
If that was your experience, then so be it. That's unfortunate through and I'm glad you stuck with it and kept playing!
The point was never that it was 'too hard', just that designing the length of an adventuring day to be longer than the expected session length so that you reliably have to track that stuff is a poor design practice.
Consider a game console that was designed so that you could only open the drive to swap your game out if you first physically unplug the console from the wall. Is it 'too hard' to do? No. Is it such an 'onerous task' that it ruins the console? No. It's just a minor, unnecessary hassle, and part of good design is about eliminating those minor unnecessary hassles by being aware of the way the thing you are designing is going to be used.
I suppose that's fair, although I think a more appropriate video game analogy would be "save anywhere" vs. "checkpoint".
Still, in this case I think there's a mountain/molehill situation going on here here but that's just my opinion.
Hell, the problem with the 5e adventures released until very recently is that they were half-assed reskins of old tournament adventures or meat-grinders. EG: against the giants, temple of elemental evil etc... The adventure in the newbie box is trying so hard to be Keep on the Borderlands.
I've read through quite a few of them over the years, and while some I think have systems that are maybe a bit easier than D&D, and maybe do a better job getting the players to roleplay. I can't think of any I've looked at and thought they looked substantially easier to GM than D&D. Especially with a group of entirely new players that are generally passive observers more than co-authors.
Little league football has trained coaches and refs as part of the package. What anarchist football leagues are you sending children to? Are you running some weird tween fightclub?
I've begun playing with a new group, and I've made a cleric because I haven't done one before. Can somebody give me a yes/no on whether I'm understanding the magic rules for 'em correctly?
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You have to pick the cantrips you know and that doesn't change per day. You don't have to prepare them, though. I don't think you have the option to swap them later, as some other classes do.
I mean, it's a shame that Tomb is the only one that really gives you a good idea how to run it if you're inexperienced, but if anyone knows anyone who wants to get started I cannot recommend this enough:
Slyfourish's site. I love this site, it's helped me so much as a DM, that and the "tomb of annihilation companion". For example, this site suggests in Storm King's thunder to just only do one of the first 3 towns, whichever two your players dont go to are either sacked by giants or saved by other heroes/the lords alliance (whos leadership are explicitly too busy bickering to get to the bottom of things).
Tomb does a much better job but I'm still glad I grabbed some supplements with guides and helpful suggestions like, dont roll random bullshit, pre-plan your party's days, and pre select random non important stuff from the random table, this makes sure players get a varied experience and dont get artus at level 1 trivializing the module
Curse of Strahd is very good but like Mines or SKT, you need help if you're not a very experienced DM to do it justice
Like, the first hostile encounter my group of 5 level 1s had was against 5 dire wolves; 1 of them would have been a serious threat but 5 was TPK for sure in session 1.
Literally anything else would have been better.
To be fair to Phandelver - on the first page before you start reading the adventure, there are a bunch of DM tips. the first of which is: If you don't know something make something up, its more important to keep the pace going then to stop everything to figure out the correct answer. (paraphrasing).
Which is good advice in the dnd zeitgeist and how its run by experienced players, even if I disagree that this type of advice is exactly what makes teaching/designing/player new player content such a mess.
The group found the mage. He was on the other side of a ring gate, casting fireball at them. They figured out how to bypass the danger and shut down the gate but they kept the exit ring.
Then, after a quick recapping of their actions over the past three days of in game time, decided as a group to find the local authority, and take claim for eight murders, a barn burning, and sending two kids strapped to a horse, back to the closes town.
It was a fantastic night of building out the port town with a merchantile guild, a group of "lawmen", and growing the black market dealer NPC to be a bigger part of this town than just a person who sells poisons and random magic items.
Session ends with the group finding the current location of the mark they were originally hunting for a bounty, a task of routing the greater bandit issue, and finding the mage.