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[Punisher] Marvel Murder Machine (Spoilers)

Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
edited November 2017 in Debate and/or Discourse
Spoilers enacted, separated the by episode for clarity



Punisher's Netflix series is streaming, a spin-off from Daredevil season 2.



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Punisher/Frank Castle (Jon Bernthal):

Faked his death in DD S1, and in retirement until something gets him back in the game.

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David Liebermann/Micro (Ebon Moss-Bachrach)

A mysterious hacker, who teams up with Frank.

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Billy Russo (Ben Barnes):

A former friend and co-worker of Frank from his time in the military. Now a hot shot exec at Anvil, Marvel's counterpart to Blackwater.

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Dinah Madani (Amber Rose Revah):

A rising star within Homeland Security, who came back from Afghanistan as a veteran to investigate her partner's murder.

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Sam Stein (Michael Nathanson):

Dinah's cynical sidekick/partner in Homeland.

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Lewis Wilson (Daniel Webber):

A troubled young veteran.

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Sarah Liebermann (Jaime Rey Newman):

Micro's wife, who thinks he's dead.

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Karen Page (Deborah Ann Wol):

Reporter from the Daily Bulletin, who has a friendship with the Punisher. Might secretly be a vampire.

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Rawlings (Paul Schulze):

Director of the CIA's black ops division.

Harry Dresden on
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Posts

  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    So, uh, are the male characters indistinguishable in the show too, or just IRL?

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Mayabird wrote: »
    So, uh, are the male characters indistinguishable in the show too, or just IRL?

    In real life, it's difficult to find pictures of what they look like on the show. Micro is a full on hipster. :)

    Harry Dresden on
  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    I'm hoping to see Ma Gnucci, Barracuda and The Man Down Below on this show

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    I'm hoping to see Ma Gnucci, Barracuda and The Man Down Below on this show

    Ep 1
    The Gnucci's have a cameo and are a plot point for a mob run poker game, Ma doesn't appear.

    Harry Dresden on
    Giggles_Funsworth
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    I'm hoping to see Ma Gnucci, Barracuda and The Man Down Below on this show

    Ep 1
    The Gnucci's have a cameo and are a plot point for a mob run poker game, Ma doesn't appear.

    I think that’s the setup.

    I hope we get to the really crazy and cartoonish villains next season if there is one. The Russian, Barracuda, proper Rawlins, Nicky Cavella, Bullseye (not the dumb MAX version but less killing people with tooth picks), etc. Maybe acknowledge supidaman and what the other heroes are doing? Maybe have someone call Captain America a bad soldier and have Frank get mad like in the comics?

    Harry DresdenGiggles_Funsworth
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    I'm hoping to see Ma Gnucci, Barracuda and The Man Down Below on this show

    Ep 1
    The Gnucci's have a cameo and are a plot point for a mob run poker game, Ma doesn't appear.

    I think that’s the setup.

    I hope we get to the really crazy and cartoonish villains next season if there is one. The Russian, Barracuda, proper Rawlins, Nicky Cavella, Bullseye (not the dumb MAX version but less killing people with tooth picks), etc. Maybe acknowledge supidaman and what the other heroes are doing? Maybe have someone call Captain America a bad soldier and have Frank get mad like in the comics?

    I'd love for crossovers with the other Defenders and/or their supporting casts, this is something Netflix needs to do at least once a season.

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Karen Page is the worst

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Just finished it. It was good.

    BeezeldanxcaligynefobEvigilantGiggles_FunsworthDiplominatorjjae2123Gnome-InterruptusHawkstoneautono-wally, erotibot300Casual
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Billy Russo - general commentary over various eps
    This character became someone I loved. At first I thought he was a bad guy, being an amoral merc yet one the episodes they gave him enough time to breathe and be likable so there's genuine relief that he might become an ally for Frank.

    Then the twist comes, and he's been working with Rawlins all along, and he's a complete monster.

    I didn't realize that he was actually Jigsaw, this is an immensely interesting update for the character who has typically been a dumb, predictable mob boss who's main gimmick was getting his face bashed in and the only survivor of the Punisher.

    His romance with Dinah is a highlight, as well.

    I wonder if he'll become akin to Punisher's Kingpin. Unlike his comic counterpart he sees to have the brains and skills to keep up with Frank without being written like he has a plot immunity.

    Harry Dresden on
    Giggles_FunsworthCasual
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Finished; didn't much care for it. Just seemed to go on and on and on. Nadhani was... useless? IDK, that last climax bit was just ...not good. Micro was so so. At one point, I was sure Frank got shot in the shoulder every episode.
    She literally has a clear shot on someone who is facing away from her and he pops her in the melon but she lives?. [/spoilers]

    Near the end I was just watching it because I was over the tipping point of "Welp, already watched most of it." but I just did not care. The gunplay was sorta bad, and Frank at times hovers over people he's shot...so someone else can shoot him in the back. I felt like they heavily overplayed Frank's wife via flashbacks or whatever.
    Jigsaw was never a particularly good villain and yet that's who they setup for ... well, whatever. I rather wish they hadn't named that guy Rawlins because he was fairly useless and no where near as compelling as the comic version.

    Nosf on
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Episode 9 was great, and I didn’t like Lewis in the beginning but he grew on me.

    DoodmannGiggles_Funsworthjjae2123
  • jammujammu Halfling Barbarian (not actual size) Registered User regular
    Didn't finish it. After the 2nd pointless torture scene, I bailed out.

    up to 3
    Seriously.
    An official ends an investigation? Time to murder-torture him on really flimsy 'evidence'. Good thing Punisher isn't ever wrong.
    Except you know that was followed by torture of Micro. Nope not interested in watching this shit.

    Ww8FAMg.jpg
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Its a torture heavy series, even the fight scenes manage to squeeze in some quick torture in between executions

    jammuHarry Dresden
  • HenroidHenroid Internet Pariah Going nowhere, but fast.Registered User regular
    Slow going on my end here. Episode 4 of the Punisher, near the start;
    Aw poor Turk, that jackass.
    So far I like it.

    Don't accept centrism. Don't let them bully you.
    Corporal CarlGiggles_FunsworthGnome-InterruptusKaplar
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Slow going on my end here. Episode 4 of the Punisher, near the start;
    Aw poor Turk, that jackass.
    So far I like it.
    HE TRIED TO ENSLAVE PEOPLE. Fuck Turk.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Slow going on my end here. Episode 4 of the Punisher, near the start;
    Aw poor Turk, that jackass.
    So far I like it.
    HE TRIED TO ENSLAVE PEOPLE. Fuck Turk.
    I've noticed they've slowly made Turk less heinous through the various series. He stated off as a sex slave smuggler, and now he's a gun runner.

    I don't think he'd have survived had Punisher been told about that slavery business he did in Daredevil.

    Harry Dresden on
    Giggles_FunsworthKanaoverride367Gnome-Interruptus
  • Baron Of HellBaron Of Hell Registered User regular
    Probably the best of marvel series for me. This is the only series that didn't have any bad episodes and didn't go off in a odd direction.

    NSDFRandDiplominator
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Turk is a charming but terrible person

    I cannot be proud, I straight up binged through the lot buoyed entirely by the performance of Jon Bernthal, I have two important spoilers
    Little Boy Knife Therapy

    and also
    Dead Wife Sex Memory Torture Fest

    In summary I think the show is good to pretty bad and always stupid, Jon Bernthal is fabulous

    Hobnail on
    Atlas in ChainsGnome-Interruptus
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Probably the best of marvel series for me. This is the only series that didn't have any bad episodes and didn't go off in a odd direction.

    Reminds me of DD season 1, thankful they didn't break the season up into 2 parts.

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    I don't think it was better than Daredevil 1 or Jessica Jones, but I'd put it at third thanks to Luke Cage's shitty back end.

  • HenroidHenroid Internet Pariah Going nowhere, but fast.Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Slow going on my end here. Episode 4 of the Punisher, near the start;
    Aw poor Turk, that jackass.
    So far I like it.
    HE TRIED TO ENSLAVE PEOPLE. Fuck Turk.
    You may have missed the sarcasm of my post but I hadn't forgotten.

    Don't accept centrism. Don't let them bully you.
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    I missed it yeah.

    I really liked the
    basement
    fight scene.

    I wish they had gotten “One” for that scene though. I like the dark country twangy theme, but I was looking forward to that.

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • agoajagoaj Now is the time of my revengeRegistered User regular
    Shame they couldn't have Mike Rowe play himself, the actor they got is good though.

    qnu0EMk.png
    TexiKendispatch.o
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Okay, I still think the changing of Frank’s
    backstory
    was entirely unecessary. You can still have Frank do
    covert ops shit and have his family’s death a horrible coincidence
    That’s pretty much what one of the Man of Stone arcs of MAX did.

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Okay, I still think the changing of Frank’s
    backstory
    was entirely unecessary. You can still have Frank do
    covert ops shit and have his family’s death a horrible coincidence
    That’s pretty much what one of the Man of Stone arcs of MAX did.

    I agree.
    Marvel needs to know they are safe moving on with Frank's story that isn't connected to his family's death. All they needed was Frank being tied to Rawling's activities via the military.

    Harry Dresden on
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Finished: Overall B for an arbitrary score. The director knows what he’s doing most of the time unlike Scott Buck.
    The action is great, you can actually see it, and it’s brutal. Jon Berenthal is fantastic as the Punisher. He’s not the stoic, man of few words, sarcastic, pessimisstic Clint Eastwood Punisher of MAX. He’s younger, full of fire still. He still sells this special forces vet very well. He’s also a human being and not a killing machine that allows himself softer moments sometimes. His interactions with the Lieberman family were good. I would love if they did a Samuel L. Jackson Fury story with him.

    Micro could have been really bad, but his actor is good. I liked his deal of watching his famil pass by and deal with this dick who’s his only hope and they eventually respect each other. The writing all around is pretty decent, there wasn’t anything where I was cringing at or rolling my eyes at like with Iron Fist.

    Villains were not the sociopathic almost cartoonishly evil ones from MAX (whom I still love). They felt realistic somewhat. They turned Billy Russo from just a guy who survived a fight with the Punisher to an actual character. Madani grew on me as did Stein. Lewis’s side story was good, and Curtis not dying was great. Him and everyone they dealt with from the support meetings felt like it had heart to it.

    Some of the actors, especially early on, feel uncomfortable in their roles. I think some stuff from the first half of the season could have been trimmed down. Like that one review said, felt like there was too much padding. It takes a long time to get to the action for most episodes. There’s also something that’s missing that keeps it from being awesome. I think DDS1 still has it beat, and I honestly prefer the more conventional Punisher going out and shooting criminals and shit.

    No “One” in the entire series
    No Chaingun he never got to use from DDS2
    No Trenchcoat

    ydejin
  • caligynefobcaligynefob DKRegistered User regular
    Overall I really liked it - for me it's the best of the Marvel shows on Netflix.

    Madhani must be the most useless federal agent in history though.

    PS4 - Mrfuzzyhat
  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    Between this and Westworld I'll never be able to see Ben Barnes as anything other than a reprehensible scumbag.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
    Giggles_Funsworth14357ydejinTicaldfjamautono-wally, erotibot300
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Overall I really liked it - for me it's the best of the Marvel shows on Netflix.

    Madhani must be the most useless federal agent in history though.

    All the useful agents are corrupt.

  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    In anticipation for the show, I reread all of Ennis MAX run and drew up some fanart. I was going to post it here but I wasnt sure if it's allowed to post art outside the art thread.

  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    I’m only 2 episodes in but this is so far shaping up to be pretty good. Is there a proper costumed / masked villain, or is it staying more real life-y?

    ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
    Steam: adamjnet
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    Real life-y

    Kana
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    I think they made the plot overly complicated. They're just piling conspiracies on top of conspiracies for its own sake.

    And even though the set up for the Lewis plot was interesting, it just ended up being
    an excuse to have Frank reveal himself to the public again and to have Billy reveal his true nature. Billy's reveal didn't even make sense. Why did he decide to out himself at that moment?

    Atlas in ChainsDracula
  • KadokenKadoken I'm an adult I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)Registered User regular
    I think they made the plot overly complicated. They're just piling conspiracies on top of conspiracies for its own sake.

    And even though the set up for the Lewis plot was interesting, it just ended up being
    an excuse to have Frank reveal himself to the public again and to have Billy reveal his true nature. Billy's reveal didn't even make sense. Why did he decide to out himself at that moment?
    Well Frank was right there, and if he was going to kill him for Rawlins that would be the time when everything is chaotic and the excuse of defense would have been easy

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    huh ben barnes and amber rose revah are both english the netflix series continue their practice of casting literally everybody possible from the uk

    obF2Wuw.png
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I think they made the plot overly complicated. They're just piling conspiracies on top of conspiracies for its own sake.

    And even though the set up for the Lewis plot was interesting, it just ended up being
    an excuse to have Frank reveal himself to the public again and to have Billy reveal his true nature. Billy's reveal didn't even make sense. Why did he decide to out himself at that moment?
    Well Frank was right there, and if he was going to kill him for Rawlins that would be the time when everything is chaotic and the excuse of defense would have been easy

    But he didn't have to
    reveal that he was evil. He's very smart and a great liar. He could have handled that situation way better and tricked Dinah and Frank into letting their guard down.

    Giggles_Funsworth
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    huh ben barnes and amber rose revah are both english the netflix series continue their practice of casting literally everybody possible from the uk

    So is Charlie Cox. Has Marvel secretly been British the wrong time? *gasp*

  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Billy's revelation was horribly spoilt by bad costume design and an awful accompanying theme for him. He was great fun despite this, but the "working for Rawlins" twist would've been so much better if they didn't check every box on the fucking list beforehand, since they were obviously trying to keep it concealed. I was desperately hoping they were doing it so they could subvert it and have him be an anti-hero of some sort, but no luck there.

    The actual overall arc was better than most of them have been besides DD1; it didn't suffer from the disgraceful third act problem so many of these shows have had. I think the first half was a bit too padded though, but most of that played into the end, so it wasn't all bad. But for the first five episodes, it didn't really feel focused; there wasn't a good sense of what the overall point was at that time, just a lot of scenes with some relation to each other.

    They really went pretty hamfisted on the writing at times. Having O'Connor be a fraud and liar who was handing out NRA pamphlets was just cheap and silly (like seriously, plenty of the people who go nuts on 2nd amendment did serve their country, so it ended up as a sad strawman). The Lewis plot was okay, but also seemed like a way to deflect criticism of The Punisher as a property that sensationalises vigilantism in the present atmosphere. Having an example of the vigilante who does it "the wrong way" rather than Castle who "does it right" is a silly conversation to try and have. Castle is obviously not compatible with the real world, and that's one of the bigger problems of the Netflix series: trying to draw these characters into a more realistic world.

    Discussing the veterancy problem is another of those things that again is... eh. JJ and Luke Cage both also had strong themes to aid their shows overarching plots, but I don't think they suffer the same problem the Punisher might. Which is to say that vigilantism to deal with PTSD etc. is something you can only really explore once, and for Frank to continue his crusades again weakens any message you might be making with your series.

    I did like that they copied the choreography of John Wick for some of the fight scenes; making sure Castle and his opponents are both in shot when they're shooting at each other, and get the camera to focus on his handling. Definitely improved a lot of the scenes.

    Overally, pretty good dumb fun. Oh, and Amber Rose Revah and Ebon Moss-Bachrach should both get more acting gigs, both of them carried roles that could've been an utter mess.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2017
    Bethryn wrote: »
    They really went pretty hamfisted on the writing at times. Having O'Connor be a fraud and liar who was handing out NRA pamphlets was just cheap and silly (like seriously, plenty of the people who go nuts on 2nd amendment did serve their country, so it ended up as a sad strawman). The Lewis plot was okay, but also seemed like a way to deflect criticism of The Punisher as a property that sensationalises vigilantism in the present atmosphere. Having an example of the vigilante who does it "the wrong way" rather than Castle who "does it right" is a silly conversation to try and have. Castle is obviously not compatible with the real world, and that's one of the bigger problems of the Netflix series: trying to draw these characters into a more realistic world.

    Political themes/Lewis plot
    It may be a straw man, yet it isn't completely unbelievable and it did have characters who agree with his stance but hated how he went about things, like the right wing radio host. It's a reaction from the extreme right militia types if Punisher existed for real, which isn't an unrealistic scenario given how cops and soldiers in our world glorify him in the worst way possible. If a right wing terrorist was going to copy the Punisher you bet they'd be big fans of the NRA.

    Lewis himself became a twisted version of Frank himself, something this series does in abundance and with excellent variety without them all being boring clones.

    In MAX Punisher has no problems hunting down and killing his own copycats who he sees as pushing his boundaries. Which he does have, to a degree. I liked how he had a conflict about hurting soldiers who were just following orders and didn't know how far to go to avoid killing them.

    Punisher fighting worse people than himself is an established technique, since they don't want him to be seen as too evil or unsympathetic. That said, there was genuine conversation over him, I agree they should have had more voices opposing his methods though. Noticed they turned down his inner jerk post-DD, which was a wise choice.

    Of all the Netflix IP's Punisher's the nearest to the real world they have. He's not a magic ninja, not a super powered detective or bulletproof - he's a vigilante type who just happens to be good at killing people to a ludicrous degree. He's an appropriate vector for gun control, military industrial complex, and veterans integrating back into society after serving themes.

    Harry Dresden on
    DiplominatorDracomicronGiggles_Funsworth
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I’m only 2 episodes in but this is so far shaping up to be pretty good. Is there a proper costumed / masked villain, or is it staying more real life-y?

    I'd say the punisher is the most detached from the MCU an MCU product has been, it's even totally detached from the other Netflix shows

    Kana
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