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Squatters next door. Out of ideas. (Updated: squatters are gone.)
Justice
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
The house next door has been abandoned for almost two years after the former owners, an old couple, died. The couple had gotten a reverse mortgage. The man died last. County records show that the original lender, in California, assigned the mortgage over to a new lender in Florida. The new lender appointed a trustee. The trustee filed papers for two trustee sales, canceling each one. Nothing else is reflected in the county records.
Last week, two (?) people pulled into the driveway with a beat-up RV and open trailer filled with household stuff. Half the block called the police. The people in the RV say that they paid $2400 on a "lease" they entered into with a woman they met at the laundromat who gave the name of one of the dead owners, and they say they are victims of a scam. Nonetheless, they have not left. They somehow got power turned back on, although one of the squatters, asking to plug cell phones into an outdoor outlet on my house, told me that the electrical box was a "tangle of wires" and the wiring in the house was messed up. The water is on although the city says it shouldn't be. A pickup truck has been in and out for days.
A neighbor who helped clean out the house ("clean out the house") when the old man died says that it was uninhabitable. The couple were hoarders. They also hoarded cats. They hoarded dead cats. The outdoors are a wreck; the patio roof has disintegrated and the house roof is shot. The old couple bricked up the windows on one side of the house.
I have tried:
My main concern is fire, either through attempts to use the power or from scavenging wires and pipes. After that, I'm worried about crime, i.e., a meth lab. After that, I'm just pissed that these people are squatting.
My legal research, which is not at all solid, suggests that the squatters actually have a better claim of right than anyone else right now, but that the Florida lender would probably be liable for any damage arising from the property. I believe the only legal recourse would require, at a minimum, getting someone with a claim to the property to oust them or else get a quitclaim deed from either the trustee/Florida lender or from any relative of the dead people, file it, and proceed as if I owned the property. Nobody knows any relatives. The city doesn't take property for failure to pay taxes for two years, and the taxes are currently paid up through last month.
I got nothing else. Thoughts?
Last week, two (?) people pulled into the driveway with a beat-up RV and open trailer filled with household stuff. Half the block called the police. The people in the RV say that they paid $2400 on a "lease" they entered into with a woman they met at the laundromat who gave the name of one of the dead owners, and they say they are victims of a scam. Nonetheless, they have not left. They somehow got power turned back on, although one of the squatters, asking to plug cell phones into an outdoor outlet on my house, told me that the electrical box was a "tangle of wires" and the wiring in the house was messed up. The water is on although the city says it shouldn't be. A pickup truck has been in and out for days.
A neighbor who helped clean out the house ("clean out the house") when the old man died says that it was uninhabitable. The couple were hoarders. They also hoarded cats. They hoarded dead cats. The outdoors are a wreck; the patio roof has disintegrated and the house roof is shot. The old couple bricked up the windows on one side of the house.
I have tried:
- talking to the squatters (they're incoherent and won't explain when they might leave);
- talking to the police along with half the block, and the police have declared repeatedly that they can't do anything without a word from the property owners, which I think is actually correct, legally;
- contacting the Florida lender, who says the property isn't in their records;
- contacting the trustee, who won't answer his phone or respond to email, but has apparently told one of the neighbors he's no longer trustee for the property;
- asking the fire department to inspect the place; they passed me through a circuit of city bureaucracy until I ended up with the people who make sure you cut your lawn and clean up graffiti, and who have opened a ticket based on "vagrancy" that won't go anywhere fast;
- talking to the power company, but they've told police that there's an account and therefore there can be power;
- talking to my city councilman's staff and asking for help
My main concern is fire, either through attempts to use the power or from scavenging wires and pipes. After that, I'm worried about crime, i.e., a meth lab. After that, I'm just pissed that these people are squatting.
My legal research, which is not at all solid, suggests that the squatters actually have a better claim of right than anyone else right now, but that the Florida lender would probably be liable for any damage arising from the property. I believe the only legal recourse would require, at a minimum, getting someone with a claim to the property to oust them or else get a quitclaim deed from either the trustee/Florida lender or from any relative of the dead people, file it, and proceed as if I owned the property. Nobody knows any relatives. The city doesn't take property for failure to pay taxes for two years, and the taxes are currently paid up through last month.
I got nothing else. Thoughts?
Justice on
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I can't afford a lawyer. Also, I am a lawyer, but neither I nor anybody in my circle practices property law. A property lawyer might certainly know some tricks that I can't find, but, then, they honestly might not, and I can't afford to pay to find out. I have no doubt that something could be done (rightly or wrongly) if I had unlimited money to litigate the shit out of this, but I don't, and I can't try anything creative or belligerent on my own without risking my license.
The problem is that land can't really be abandoned, not easily, which is why we have things like squatters' rights and adverse possession. In my state, it would take 3 years and payment of taxes for the squatters to gain an enforceable claim of ownership on the land, or 10 years without payment of taxes. Buuut--possession alone does grant some legal rights, including the right not to be trespassed unless someone with a better claim steps in and tells the police that the squatters are trespassing.
So, as far as the law goes, (1) it's for the rich and (2) I don't think the law is on my side on the facts as they stand.
(Edit: How can I be a lawyer without piles of money? I'm not evil and my field could broadly be described as enforcing rights for poor people, ha ha, yes I see the irony.)
The next step is for you and your neighbors to be the most annoying people to the town/city/county/state and file complaints constantly and possibly call the appropriate inspectors to determine the livability of the house.
Sure they can take ownership of the property, but if it's condemned the city is basically forced to kick them out and it's on them to get it into a livable state again.
In short, get used to them. They aren't going anywhere. You can't afford a lawyer and their power would be limited anyway. Use your lawyer money to buy a few good quality house cameras and point them at your porch, your cars, and any other entrance to your house.
Sorry =(
The issue may be that lenders offload portfolios all the time, so it may have traded hands and not been updated in the records.. I would contact the lender again and see if you can get anywhere.
Also we get notices from the county and sherriff departments all the time about properties in bad condition and that need to be fixed, so I'm surprised your county hasn't brought it up already. You may have to waste a day at the county office seeing if anyone can help you.
You don't need to prove you legally occupy a property to turn on power, just pay your bill. Municipal water service you *might* have to prove legal occupancy, but it's absurdly easy to illegally turn on most places and catching illegal turn ons is surprisingly rare, especially if they bypassed the meter.
You might have two hopes:
-The city councilman you mentioned could get things moving.
-Code enforcement. Especially if your area has adopted the International Property Maintenance Code, which is specially crafted so that it's almost impossible to comply with any part of it, allowing property owners or city officials to drive out anyone they want with constant violations. Even without the IPMC, get a copy of your area's maintenance code and report every violation you see forever.
Because... Well, you're not going to get rid of them just on the principle of illegal occupation, you can at least try to force them to keep the property presentable on the outside, which might be an improvement over leaving it empty.
noooooooo, those are all illegal!
Keep in mind with any escalation that these are scam victims and they're primarily hurting a lending bank that doesn't care.
That's why I suggested hitting them with code enforcement reports, because if they fix up the derelict and keep the place clean, it could be a net benefit for the neighborhood. Or the fines will become more than they can handle if they can't maintain the property, and if they can't they shouldn't have it regardless.
Not necessarily, there are a lot of crusties out there who make a lifestyle out of it. They have their own little culture. They aren't necessarily ideal neighbors because "drugs" are a big part of the culture, but they aren't necessarily going to be cut-throats.
we had a big problem with slashed tires
seriously, get cameras. the town/city/county/police will not help you*. the only people that can bring this to order is the owner of the property who really don't care about you or the dilapidated house that they didn't want in the first place.
*even if they do help you, it will take a minimum of half a year to get them out.
That said, if you've got a decent amount of space between their house and yours, maybe you should just hope for a fire. Any of the neighborhood gets like to play with matches?
Do not give shitty illegal advice.
If any of you continue to encourage clearly illegal advice in this thread, it's going to get infracted. Not helpful, even if you're joking.
Also worth noting that this particular "joke", when you know that the house was occupied by hoarders and may already be a fire hazard, is just this side of an infraction as it is. Not funny here.
also what state is this in?
As someone who works in title insurance, the court won't take the county treasurer's maps as definitive ownership, and it sounds like Justice has already searched the public records/register of deeds office. I bring it up, because if there's someone who's paying the taxes on the property, they're the one's who will be motivated to deal with squatters.
Haha well that's fucking awful.
property law is the WORST. you'd think an owner could just call the police and say "this person doesn't belong here, please evict him"
haha noooooo
the amount of time, effort, and money required to evict someone off of property that isn't theirs is amazing.
I am not a lawyer but you'll probably need to search some probate court records.
Because asshole landlords do things like evicting disabled people in December for being 1 day late on the rent, so they can do the place up and double the rent, the laws tend to favor the tenant. Which can leave honest landlords and neighbors of squatters in quite the pickle, of course.
I've always felt there should be a pretty obvious legal line between 'oh crap I was three days late with the check' and 'this is my property .... I don't know you .... please leave'
This actually feels like the best bet to me too. Making a pest of yourself and encouraging other concerned neighbors to do the same might eventually irritate someone enough to take action. Would it make sense to make an appearance at a town meeting of some kind?
The possibility exists they have warrants for arrest and won't go through normal channels to get a section 8 apartment because of it.
Just speculation based on personal experience with tenants in a home my mom owned who stopped paying rent.
Mental /Addiction Health doesn't move very quickly. It's always understaffed. People who need help most are also often violently against being "in the system" so don't snoop around.
Edit: Hoarding is unsafe. If you can make a convincing argument for concern you'll get a better response than if you present like these people are lowering property values.
@Captain Ultra The County (at least, the tax-collecting arm of the County) thinks that the dead people own it. The County doesn't say who paid the taxes up through last month.
No HOA.
I heard back from the trustee; he's cagey, but the gist is he's not currently doing anything for his client, and his client is only a lienholder, not the owner. He won't say who his client is, which is correct under attorneys' ethical rules.
I called the last lending company listed in the County Recorder's documents, again. The person on the phone ran both the loan number and the address and said they have no records. This doesn't add up, since they're the ones who appointed the trustee, and he---although without naming them---said they're a lienholder.
And, Captain Ultra, what you said about lack of a foreclosure is spot on. There've been two notices of trustee sales---both canceled. So, I looked at this, and in my state, a deed of trust is treated as a lien even though the document says it's conveying the property. This makes some sense in light of the trustee's disclaimer. Meaning, that the dead peoples' estate still owns the property until the lender decides to enforce its fight to sell the property. So, they can sell it, but they don't own it! And they have no responsibilities whatsoever. How fucked up is that.
The plan now: I've messaged all of the dead man's "friends" on Facebook and reached a second cousin who's passing my information to her aunt. I'll try to get them to claim ownership or at least sell a quitclaim deed to me, which would give me a colorable claim of ownership and force the lender to enforce their rights. I've also spammed everyone at the City I can get ahold of, shouting "fire" and trying to subtly hint that I'll consider them liable if my house burns down because they failed to do an inspection. I've ordered two more Arlo cameras, bringing me to three, and I'll put them outside. And I'll research the strict rules of the City property code as recommended by @Hevach ... I'll also see if there are any enforceable covenants in the original deeds for the neighborhood.
As for the squatters' status for drugs, crime, and mental health, we'll have to wait and see. Thanks everyone!
it would be difficult to evict them outright even if there were an owner or trustee available, and without one it'll be all but impossible. You may be able to harry them into moving on though, at which point it will be easier to get local authorities to address issues with the structure
ed: also if you don't have this already, begin taking steps to clearly mark where you consider the property line to be. Chalk the ground, put a rope line up, build a fence, whatever. When this does eventually come to a fight over selling the property you don't want part of your property winding up in the adversely possessed area
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
They can have a place condemned. Also the permit office is a good place to go for unpermitted construction, which modifying power and plumbing without a permit most certainly is.
i'm for helping folks who need a home, but i'm also for helping folks live in a place free of electrical and pest hazards. this sounds like a good story that a TV or newspaper outlet would want to cover. brings public attention to the problem (hopefully) AND pressure to bear on public officials.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
Tonight at 11.
Sadly, yeah. Most local stations would probably jump at that. Hits all the panic bits dead on.
The squatters haven't actually done anything yet, right? So they aren't all that scary.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/turf-war-neighbors-say-squatters-battling-for-one-home
Dunno if it is the same house but the timing lines up?
i'd even frame it this way: "Renters scammed because of absent landowners: the scourge of tight housing markets"
but yeah, i can see how this can easily be turned into a "scary squatters" story.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
City fire, code enforcement, building permitting, "neighborhood services" (blight), and my city councilman---all gave zero shits, even after I sent them this photograph of the electrical wiring, and despite elevating to supervisors and making increasingly shrill noises about how everything was going to burn down and they would be responsible. And the other neighbors were doing the same.
Police gave zero shits, and the cop in charge bitched and bitched and bitched about how I was "busting his balls" by going to his sergeant and how he "went above and beyond" by driving by the house so often, despite accomplishing nothing. By the end, the squatters had completely covered the carport with tarps and had regular foot traffic as well as a friend on a motorcycle with SS bolts who came and went all night long. They had a four-foot diameter Iron Cross with the words "Dead Men Tell No Tales" engraved on it. (Really.) The sergeant threw up his poor hands and clutched his bewildered head; a couple of methed out squatters done had them beat. Again, other neighbors were also talking to him and trying to get some resolution. The police misrepresented the criminal law to explain why they couldn't do anything. It's been said before, but, fuck the police.
The power company blew us all off but responded quickly after I contacted their chief legal person, but the technician who came out basically lied to me. He said the power was off. A neighbor (an electrician) tested it with a voltage meter, and it's not off.
The lenders finally got a death certificate for the prior owners and noticed a trustee sale (in three months), but they wouldn't act as a responsible contact for the police to say that anyone was trespassing. The prior owner's extended family---such as could be reached---said they don't want anything to do with the problem, since the house isn't worth anything.
So... how'd we get anywhere? The lady squatter, it so happens, was on probation, which we learned only because her probation officer, who visited the house and was confronted by neighbors, was dumb enough and unethical enough to say who he was, what her name was, and why he was at the house. Another lawyer down the street just so happened to have contacts at the top of the chain of command in Adult Probation. After a concerted effort by both of us, we went up two levels of supervision and eventually got the lady ousted. The man, her husband, went with her.
I did a lot to try to secure the property. Then, tonight, the electrician neighbor and I checked out the house and rousted a meth addict who'd jumped the wall and made a nest in the outdoor laundry room. We then put screws at an angle through every door and window frame, including the back gate. The neighbor removed all the breakers from the breaker box, and we threw them away.
So... yay. I'm very happy that the squatters are gone but bummed that all the societal protections we have were worthless. If it wasn't for the lucky chance that the lady was on probation and we found out about it, nothing would be different. We'd be purely at a level of "self help," i.e., vigilantism. Oh well. At least they're gone! Thanks again to everyone for your time and input.
I'm glad everything was resolved. I just thought I'd comment that I don't consider it unethical or stupid for a probation officer to disclose why he was there or the name of the individual on probation. All that stuff is public record isn't it?