[WoW] The fight starts August 14th

Enigmedic

Yeah, pretty much everything about the good guys has become less "Uther" and more "Legion with a better PR team".

edit: Also if you look at it like that, the DK order hall mission suddenly becomes a lot less evil.

Enc

That's why I'm mostly a Hunter now as far as favored playstyle. I can reconcile being in this world as sort of a recon-in-force character for the last few expansions. First person in, clear out a place for the other units to come in after.

Also walking around as an alliance human with two goddamn lions at my hips is pretty boss.

Enigmedic

I think it's kind of why I like discipline and shadow priest. They both more focus on the mind for their power, and have spells/systems that support that theme. Not that I really hate holy priest either, but it wasn't based around naaru for like 14 years, so it's a little weird thematically for me. It does play well though. I'm still hoping that something badass happens with Bolvar and the death knights at some point during this expansion.

Jealous Deva

On the one hand I don't think having a point be that some light followers/naaru/draenei are evil and the ones we have worked with up to this point were just the more reasonable ones is a bad thing at all, on the other hand I'm a little annoyed that all the specific guys I worked with a couple of expansions ago have suddenly gotten the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel treatment.

Huge alignment shifts and characterization changes like that really shouldn't happen offscreen.

TryCatcher

Fairchild wrote: »

Enc wrote: »

The Lighforged Dranei are the most terrifying addition to wow in memory.

I really don't see them as fundamentally different from the Legion.

There's a CS Lewis quote that is appropriate here, I can't find the exact words but it's something like "Nobody ever plans to do Evil; they always plan to do Good and then fail badly along the way."

There's also this more relevant quote:

CS Lewis wrote:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

Also, overall, Argus and now this thing doesn't just delete all the good that the Light and the Draenei and even the Naaru have done. It just makes them not perfect, and as fallen as everything else. How can you expect your character to be good if you can't feel the temptation to do evil? Like, wanting a 100% guarantee of moral authority no matter the circumstances just strikes me as childish.

I do agree that having this huge shift happen offscreen is just bad storytelling.

Enigmedic

I think it would be kind of cool if they delve a little more into the whole light being pretty crazy too. Like there is a pretty close parallel between the light and the void. Everything with the void is all this is destiny it has been foretold kind of stuff (whispers of the old gods, ilgynoth, knaifu, etc.), while the light also has their prophecies and ideology (xera talking to illidan). They are actually really close in how they operate and think. I don't really see why we couldn't come to the conclusion that all of these things are batshit crazy and we need to not play with either of them. That AU draenor is basically just flipped roles for the light and void makes the comparison more interesting because they don't sound like they are much different at all.

TryCatcher

The Army of the Light has always been on the defensive since they have always gone against the Burning Legion, which is an evil army with endless numbers. But the Legion isn't there anymore, and the revolutionary turned into dictator is far too common.

Then again, I'm enjoying this because quite a bit of posters on forums have been all "The Draenei should just use their super space guns and blow the fuck out of the primitive, savage, unredeemably evil Orcs (and Forsaken)", to put it mildly, and now are looking how that actually looks like.

Javen

TryCatcher wrote: »

The Army of the Light has always been on the defensive since they have always gone against the Burning Legion, which is an evil army with endless numbers. But the Legion isn't there anymore, and the revolutionary turned into dictator is far too common.

Then again, I'm enjoying this because quite a bit of posters on forums have been all "The Draenei should just use their super space guns and blow the fuck out of the primitive, savage, unredeemably evil Orcs (and Forsaken)", to put it mildly, and now are looking how that actually looks like.

I will admit that turning the Draenei into colonialist oppressors is something I didn't think they'd have the stones to do, and am legit surprised they did it.

htm

TryCatcher wrote: »

Datamining seems that they are also making Sylvannas less cartoonishly evil:

Yeah, but...

...the horde is still straight up evil in that line of quests. I just made it to that area in the beta yesterday.

There's children crying at the feet of their dead (unarmed civilian) parents whose bodies have been pinned to the walls with spears by the Horde and left hanging.

Enc

TryCatcher wrote: »

The Army of the Light has always been on the defensive since they have always gone against the Burning Legion, which is an evil army with endless numbers. But the Legion isn't there anymore, and the revolutionary turned into dictator is far too common.

Then again, I'm enjoying this because quite a bit of posters on forums have been all "The Draenei should just use their super space guns and blow the fuck out of the primitive, savage, unredeemably evil Orcs (and Forsaken)", to put it mildly, and now are looking how that actually looks like.

I'm not really one of those posters, but I also think that Draenei technology is problematic and does a lot of harm to the setting.

Brainleech

I still feel how Org looked during the siege of Org raid at that time would have changed a lot of people's opinion of Garrosh and the horde in general

TryCatcher

"lololol now you get how it feels when is one of YOUR guys turning into a raid boss" is not the most constructive feeling.

Still enjoy it.

Enc

That said, one of my favorite things I've done in Wow, as a lifelong alliance person, was the Assassination Rogue quest where you sneak into SW against the SI7 agents.

I'd love a stormwind raid.

Preacher

Enc wrote: »

That said, one of my favorite things I've done in Wow, as a lifelong alliance person, was the Assassination Rogue quest where you sneak into SW against the SI7 agents.

I'd love a stormwind raid.

If you play horde side you have to sneak into all of the alliance capital cities and kill a target. Which is entertaining in a "HA I GOT YOUR AUCTIONEER!" way.

Donnicton

I figured they were going to push this after the whole She-Ra and Illidan cutscene in Legion where it implies that the Naaru are pretty aggressively zealous in forcing salvation onto people. I thought they were going to do something more with it in the main timeline though, instead of using it on WoD which is basically a dumping ground for the idea because it's clear you're not going to get to explore it significantly any time soon, since it would require re-exploring Abrams-Draenor.

I think it's clearly intended to give Blizzard more material to perpetuate WoW expansions past BfA - at some point the Naaru collectively decide that the universe needs "saving" and will be your next Big Bad™ now that the Legion is gone.

Javen

It probably wasn't intentional, but what happens during the Argus campaign really reframes a lot of the prior interactions you have with them. I recently replayed the Crusader Bridenbrad quest and...woof.

Enc

Javen wrote: »

It probably wasn't intentional, but what happens during the Argus campaign really reframes a lot of the prior interactions you have with them. I recently replayed the Crusader Bridenbrad quest and...woof.

How does it change them?

Sterica

Xe'ra was zealous about that shit. Remember that A'dal and the others on Outland had no fucks to give about Illidan's Chosen One status.

Donnicton

Sterica wrote: »

Xe'ra was zealous about that shit. Remember that A'dal and the others on Outland had no fucks to give about Illidan's Chosen One status.

None may challenge the power of the void lord Ret'Con.

Javen

Enc wrote: »

Javen wrote: »

It probably wasn't intentional, but what happens during the Argus campaign really reframes a lot of the prior interactions you have with them. I recently replayed the Crusader Bridenbrad quest and...woof.

How does it change them?

Well for one thing, in TBC, they're the ones who send you to topple Illidan's reign over Outland, and lead the siege on the Black Temple. But they also know he's supposed to be their savior. This definitely makes it feel like they've managed to predict what's going to happen, and that you're just pawns in their 4d chess game.

And the scene with Bridenbrad looks a LOT like what the start of what Xe'ra was doing to Illidan, but less painful. But the beam of light projecting from the Naaru to their target, and basically disintegrating Bridenbrad, is probably what would have happened to Illidan if he hadn't resisted. It takes it from 'the benevolent Naaru are sending this person to the Azeroth version of heaven' to 'they're killing this person and doing with his energy what they see fit'

Javen

Sterica wrote: »

Xe'ra was zealous about that shit. Remember that A'dal and the others on Outland had no fucks to give about Illidan's Chosen One status.

But we don't really know that now. We know that they wanted us to remove Illidan from his seat of power in Outland.

EDIT: They're also not the ones who send you to kill Illidan. That comes from Akama and Maiev. The Naaru are looking to get into the Black Temple, but beyond that their goals on Outland regarding Illidan aren't made clear.

Donnicton

Bridenbrad is a bit of a tricky one because it was actually done as a memorial for the brother of a friend of the dev team who passed away from cancer, and was done way back before they had any idea they were going to make the Naaru more sinister than they appear. I doubt they will ever touch on this again out of respect, so it's probably one of those things best ignored as an innocent anachronism.

Javen

Donnicton wrote: »

Bridenbrad is a bit of a tricky one because it was actually done as a memorial for the brother of a friend of the dev team who passed away from cancer, and was done way back before they had any idea they were going to make the Naaru more sinister than they appear. I doubt they will ever touch on this again out of respect, so it's probably one of those things best ignored as an innocent anachronism.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean it like it intentionally reframes everything in a 'this was their plan all along and they left us vague hints' type of sense, because hah, nope

Sterica

Javen wrote: »

Sterica wrote: »

Xe'ra was zealous about that shit. Remember that A'dal and the others on Outland had no fucks to give about Illidan's Chosen One status.

But we don't really know that now. We know that they wanted us to remove Illidan from his seat of power in Outland.

EDIT: They're also not the ones who send you to kill Illidan. That comes from Akama and Maiev. The Naaru are looking to get into the Black Temple, but beyond that their goals on Outland regarding Illidan aren't made clear.

They're at the Black Temple, assisting you in battle. At some point you either mention "Hey, we need this target taken alive." or don't and give the impression you don't care if the enemy survives.

Given that the target in question is prophesied to defeat one of your greatest enemies, to not mention this incredibly vital bit of information with your allies suggests that the naaru are just the most incompetent group of beings.

Javen

Sterica wrote: »

Javen wrote: »

Sterica wrote: »

Xe'ra was zealous about that shit. Remember that A'dal and the others on Outland had no fucks to give about Illidan's Chosen One status.

But we don't really know that now. We know that they wanted us to remove Illidan from his seat of power in Outland.

EDIT: They're also not the ones who send you to kill Illidan. That comes from Akama and Maiev. The Naaru are looking to get into the Black Temple, but beyond that their goals on Outland regarding Illidan aren't made clear.

They're at the Black Temple, assisting you in battle. At some point you either mention "Hey, we need this target taken alive." or don't and give the impression you don't care if the enemy survives.

Given that the target in question is prophesied to defeat one of your greatest enemies, to not mention this incredibly vital bit of information with your allies suggests that the naaru are just the most incompetent group of beings.

But if you say 'it's extremely important that you simply capture him, do NOT kill him under any circumstances' people are going to ask why. And the fact that Xe'ra was totally sandbagging what it actually wanted to do with Illidan, tells me that they knew the mortals would probably take issue with it.

Enc

And in the end, isn't the implication that Illiden

replaced Sargeras as the new Titan warleader?

Javen

Enc wrote: »

And in the end, isn't the implication that Illiden

replaced Sargeras as the new Titan warleader?

The implication is that they gonna fight, but we don’t know how that’ll turn out, yet.

Dhalphir

I'm pretty sure he was just supposed to be the jailer.

reVerse

Dhalphir wrote: »

I'm pretty sure he was just supposed to be the jailer.

A warden, if you will.

I needed anime to post.

"what if the holy religion.....ALSO bad???" is like the most cliche thing to do in fantasy so it makes sense that Warcraft, home of cliches, finally caught up

Sterica

I mean "light is part of a greater spectrum and there must be a balance" is a more interesting angle than "LIGHT GOOD DARK BAD."

The problem is that Blizzard sucks at subtlety, so we're basically 1-2 expansions away from light corruption and killing Naaru for purples.

Preacher

Doesn't have to be "corrupted" that's the cheap way out, just have them be zealots who think the light makes them right.

Javen

They’ve had this angle going internally for awhile it seems; the Chronicles books are very clear that benevolence/maliciousness are not factors that the light/void really deal in. Each one wants to completely obliterate the other. That’s it.

Javen

Preacher wrote: »

Doesn't have to be "corrupted" that's the cheap way out, just have them be zealots who think the light makes them right.

If it’s helps, there’s really no indication that Yrel is ‘corrupted’; just terrible. Which sucks because I liked her, but kind of good because Draenei villains (not eredar) are very rare.

Sterica

Preacher wrote: »

Doesn't have to be "corrupted" that's the cheap way out, just have them be zealots who think the light makes them right.

I'm telling you what Blizzard will do, as opposed to what they should do.

Preacher

Sterica wrote: »

Preacher wrote: »

Doesn't have to be "corrupted" that's the cheap way out, just have them be zealots who think the light makes them right.

I'm telling you what Blizzard will do, as opposed to what they should do.

Ahh ok yes that makes sense. Kind of like the Scarlet Crusade just couldn't be holy than thou jerks they had to be literally demon corrupted

Javen

I do feel it necessary to offer a counterpoint to the bad mag’har narrative though

And that is: upright orcs look baller as hell.

Donnicton

I needed anime to post.

I'm just clenching for the moment in BFA where they go "The Alliance is also bad because....the Light....is bad."

3cl1ps3

Calling it: the Naaru were in service of the Void Lords the entire time, which is why they're fighting the Legion.