Loki's motivation for joining Team Good Guy and softening since then is based on Frigga's death.
Something-something refrigerator something-something misuse of trope naming
I don't think killing the heroes mentor or parents counts as fridging, otherwise every fantasy epic would be guilty of it. Like... does anyone say that Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen got fridged? I would hope not.
Fridging specifically refered to the act of killing, harming or otherwise causing the suffering of a female character for the primary purpose of motivating or otherwise developing the character of a male, uh, character. Named for when Alexandra DeWitt, then Kyle Raynor's girlfriend, was murdered and literally stuffed into the fridge for him to find.
Now, killing a supporting character for the purposes of developing the story of the main character, like a lot of things, isn't in and of itself a bad thing. That's the purpose of supporting characters. The problem arose because this shit happens with alarming frequency to female characters (primarily due to the fact media is so male focused) that it became noticeable and people began having a problem with it.
You mentioned "Every fantasy epic would be guilty of it." Yes, a lot of them are. And that's where the problem lies. Not that it happens, but the frequency in which it happens.
It came up in the context of comics because comics have a bad habit of "here's the love of your life! .... annnnd she's dead." Killing off Gandalf or mom and pops is a different trope, imo.
Loki's motivation for joining Team Good Guy and softening since then is based on Frigga's death.
Something-something refrigerator something-something misuse of trope naming
I don't think killing the heroes mentor or parents counts as fridging, otherwise every fantasy epic would be guilty of it. Like... does anyone say that Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen got fridged? I would hope not.
Fridging specifically refered to the act of killing, harming or otherwise causing the suffering of a female character for the primary purpose of motivating or otherwise developing the character of a male, uh, character. Named for when Alexandra DeWitt, then Kyle Raynor's girlfriend, was murdered and literally stuffed into the fridge for him to find.
Now, killing a supporting character for the purposes of developing the story of the main character, like a lot of things, isn't in and of itself a bad thing. That's the purpose of supporting characters. The problem arose because this shit happens with alarming frequency to female characters (primarily due to the fact media is so male focused) that it became noticeable and people began having a problem with it.
You mentioned "Every fantasy epic would be guilty of it." Yes, a lot of them are. And that's where the problem lies. Not that it happens, but the frequency in which it happens.
It came up in the context of comics because comics have a bad habit of "here's the love of your life! .... annnnd she's dead." Killing off Gandalf or mom and pops is a different trope, imo.
Gandalf and Pops aren't women, first of all, so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up. And yes, killing a mother figure, or a female mentor, or a female dependant, would qualify. It's not just romantically involved characters. (Example; Barbera Gordon being shot in Killing Joke was done entirely to provide a character moment for Jim Gordon)
Again, it's not "This is a bad thing that this happens at all" it's "This happens overwhelmingly to women, and that's a bad thing."
It's not just that, it's because often times they will have previously written the women characters in maybe a strong and independent light but then double back on that to get a cheap quick emotional jab at the main character. Comics have decades and decades of lore for some of these characters so when they get killed easily after only being around for a few movies or episodes of TV, it feels even worse for the fan who knows more about the characters. It's like if Uncle Ben had all this backstory of him being a strong and heroic guy who a wimpy mugger couldn't handle, and then they have him killed off screen in a hand-waving manner.
This can also be attributed to how different writers handle different characters but, it's a harmful trope because it kills off interesting and compelling women characters for unfair or arbitrary reasons.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
I don't really think it applies to Frigga's death though. It's been a while since I've seen it, but IIRC she died with intent and agency. The whole arc is about the old gods dying so the new gods can take their place. Things were never going to end well for her.
I don't really think it applies to Frigga's death though. It's been a while since I've seen it, but IIRC she died with intent and agency. The whole arc is about the old gods dying so the new gods can take their place. Things were never going to end well for her.
?
Frigga is the only "old god" who dies in that entire movie.
I don't really think it applies to Frigga's death though. It's been a while since I've seen it, but IIRC she died with intent and agency. The whole arc is about the old gods dying so the new gods can take their place. Things were never going to end well for her.
?
Frigga is the only "old god" who dies in that entire movie.
Sure, I'm saying from Thor 1 to Ragnarok things aren't looking great for the old gods is all.
Again, I haven't seen the movie in days, but I don't remember feeling like her death was egregious and usually I'm pretty sensitive to that kind of thing. Felt earned. I will try to rewatch them soon to verify.
Watching Daredevil again. Hope to see Black Panther tonight.
They should have never gotten rid of
Evil Cyril Figgis.
They were the best.
Daredevil really shits the bed at the end of S1. In large part because of a desperate attempt to keep the season self-contained.
And yeah, that spoiler is one of the saddest parts of it.
To be fair, though, it was a really excellently executed moment. I was just as surprised as...that character...was.
I really liked the ending, even with the goofy mandatory boss fight at the end. However, that scene is stuck with me because they never paid it off. There’s kind of a theme that comes out of it in S2 and Punisher, but it seemed unecessary.
Kadoken on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited February 2018
If anyone is looking to rewatch the MCU before Infinity War, this is the chronology:
1. Cap 1 (Until the crash)
2. Iron Man
3. Iron Man 2
4. Incredible Hulk
5. Thor
6. Cap 1 (Out of the ice)
7. The Avengers
8. Iron Man 3
9. Thor 2
10. Winter Soldier
11. GotG
12. GotG 2
13. AoU
14. Ant-Man
15. Dr. Strange (Until in Kamar-Taj training is over)
16. Civil War
17. Black Panther
18. Homecoming
19. Dr. Strange (End of the film)
20. Thor: Ragnarok
Also, Dr. Strange can kinda take place whereever since the creators confirmed that it isn't Rhodey when Strange turns down the case of the guy in experimental armor.
And if you're going to count flashbacks, both Ant-Man and Spider-Man start with flashbacks (Ant-Man in the 60's and Spider-Man right after The Avengers)
I imagine it's gonna be hard to set movies between IW and Part 2
They were originally planning on setting two between that time. Though I guess one of them is now taking place in the 90's. Dunno if Inhumans was going to do something similar before it got downgraded to a tv show.
Jessica Jones season 2 has the most direct MCU TV reference to the MCU films yet, with a kid asking ‘Do you know Captain America?’.
For Netlflix stuff; but stuff like that is all over AoS. (Skye is called out as a Iron Man fangirl in the very first episode). Like, AoS Season 1 was lousy with that stuff.
There’s references to Avengers and the battle for New York all over the Netflix stuff.
Yeah, but it's always "The battle of NY" and "The big green guy" or "guy with a magic hammer" or whatever. I'm not sure they've every specifically dropped an actual superhero name.
Also, few of the references feel like much more than lip service. At least to me it doesn't actually feel like the Netflix shows are set in the same universe as the MCU in any substantial way.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I feel like they are but they also keep an unnecessary distance. Spider-Man has handled the street level stuff best in my opinion. The fallout from aliens invading was central to the plot instead of just background.
I feel like they are but they also keep an unnecessary distance. Spider-Man has handled the street level stuff best in my opinion. The fallout from aliens invading was central to the plot instead of just background.
To be fair, a big chunk of Season One of Daredevil was Fisk using the reconstruction after the Battle of NY as an opportunity to gentrify hell's kitchen.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Vincent's read of "ah yes, son of a boxer" is still amazing.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
I imagine it's gonna be hard to set movies between IW and Part 2
It would be neat if it lead directly into Infinity War, started at the end (presumably something from Infinity War) and had a fucky non-linear narrative that filled in some gaps monologued by Michael Pena recollecting how they got there. Because sometimes he fucks up and forgets a thing and has to go back, or misremembers and corrects himself mid-stream.
Supposedly according to the writers, they actually tried to directly refer to the whole alien invasion in Daredevil, but when it was directly mentioned like that, it went over about as well as a lead balloon and completely killed the scene.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Hell, there’s a newspaper clipping in one shot that, as I recall, shows one of the monster troop transports.
I agree it’s often done a little awkwardly, maybe a royalties thing, or some other contractual shenanigans, but they’ve definitely dropped more than a few nods in the various shows.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I do remember one episode of Agents of Shield that a party was going on and all the women were asking Coulson if Thor was going to be there.
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
Agents of SHIELD is the only MCU show that actually has had characters from the movies show up: Nick Fury, Maria Hill, and Dr. List. On the other hand, I think the last time that happened was season 2, and we're now in the middle of season 5.
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
edited February 2018
I suspect it was at first entirely budgetary, but then it was largely due to the separation between Marvel Studios and Marvel Entertainment. Ike Perlnutter was, from Disney's perspective, fucking with the money. However, he had too much pull to simply be thrown out of the company, so they sequestered him with the shit that doesn't matter as much to them--the TV and comics stuff.
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Characters, sure...
But the Sokovia Accords were a big plotpoint in Agents of SHIELD.
The simple answer is that unless they choose to surprise us either by having Daisy or Daredevil show up in IW part 1 or 2, the relationship is purely unidirectional. Movie folks can show up on a TV show and movie storylines can move the needle in the TV show, but the reverse doesn’t happen.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
What I think people seem to forget is the shows and the movies should be handled the way the comics handle the smaller comics and the major comics.
New Warriors will mention or use a plot line from The Avengers comics to further its own story or as a background point but the Avengers won't ever mention something that happened within the confines of new Warriors, unless the point is to kill them all off and use them as a stupid motivation to cause the Civil War.
The movies are the big budget and highly advertised major comics, and Agents of Shield is that smaller comic. Shield is free to use the storyline from the movies to further its story but the movies won't ever mention what's happening within the show.
That does not mean that the show is any less enjoyable or part of the universe it just has its own role to play that is separate from the bigger budget movies. The Netflix shows follow the same thinking. They are all part of the MCU and the movies and shows don't usually step on each other but the movies won't ever mention the TV shows because in the grand scheme of things they don't matter in the storys that the movies are trying to tell.
Posts
It came up in the context of comics because comics have a bad habit of "here's the love of your life! .... annnnd she's dead." Killing off Gandalf or mom and pops is a different trope, imo.
Gandalf and Pops aren't women, first of all, so I'm not sure why you're bringing them up. And yes, killing a mother figure, or a female mentor, or a female dependant, would qualify. It's not just romantically involved characters. (Example; Barbera Gordon being shot in Killing Joke was done entirely to provide a character moment for Jim Gordon)
Again, it's not "This is a bad thing that this happens at all" it's "This happens overwhelmingly to women, and that's a bad thing."
This can also be attributed to how different writers handle different characters but, it's a harmful trope because it kills off interesting and compelling women characters for unfair or arbitrary reasons.
?
Frigga is the only "old god" who dies in that entire movie.
(give or take a Thursday evening showing or 10,000)
They should have never gotten rid of
Sure, I'm saying from Thor 1 to Ragnarok things aren't looking great for the old gods is all.
Again, I haven't seen the movie in days, but I don't remember feeling like her death was egregious and usually I'm pretty sensitive to that kind of thing. Felt earned. I will try to rewatch them soon to verify.
Daredevil really shits the bed at the end of S1. In large part because of a desperate attempt to keep the season self-contained.
And yeah, that spoiler is one of the saddest parts of it.
To be fair, though, it was a really excellently executed moment. I was just as surprised as...that character...was.
I really liked the ending, even with the goofy mandatory boss fight at the end. However, that scene is stuck with me because they never paid it off. There’s kind of a theme that comes out of it in S2 and Punisher, but it seemed unecessary.
1. Cap 1 (Until the crash)
2. Iron Man
3. Iron Man 2
4. Incredible Hulk
5. Thor
6. Cap 1 (Out of the ice)
7. The Avengers
8. Iron Man 3
9. Thor 2
10. Winter Soldier
11. GotG
12. GotG 2
13. AoU
14. Ant-Man
15. Dr. Strange (Until in Kamar-Taj training is over)
16. Civil War
17. Black Panther
18. Homecoming
19. Dr. Strange (End of the film)
20. Thor: Ragnarok
Yes, thank you! I wasn't quite sure which order those two went but that works.
*shrug*
And if you're going to count flashbacks, both Ant-Man and Spider-Man start with flashbacks (Ant-Man in the 60's and Spider-Man right after The Avengers)
Most recent update.
They were originally planning on setting two between that time. Though I guess one of them is now taking place in the 90's. Dunno if Inhumans was going to do something similar before it got downgraded to a tv show.
For Netlflix stuff; but stuff like that is all over AoS. (Skye is called out as a Iron Man fangirl in the very first episode). Like, AoS Season 1 was lousy with that stuff.
Yeah, but it's always "The battle of NY" and "The big green guy" or "guy with a magic hammer" or whatever. I'm not sure they've every specifically dropped an actual superhero name.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
To be fair, a big chunk of Season One of Daredevil was Fisk using the reconstruction after the Battle of NY as an opportunity to gentrify hell's kitchen.
It would be neat if it lead directly into Infinity War, started at the end (presumably something from Infinity War) and had a fucky non-linear narrative that filled in some gaps monologued by Michael Pena recollecting how they got there. Because sometimes he fucks up and forgets a thing and has to go back, or misremembers and corrects himself mid-stream.
I agree it’s often done a little awkwardly, maybe a royalties thing, or some other contractual shenanigans, but they’ve definitely dropped more than a few nods in the various shows.
My Backloggery
But the Sokovia Accords were a big plotpoint in Agents of SHIELD.
The simple answer is that unless they choose to surprise us either by having Daisy or Daredevil show up in IW part 1 or 2, the relationship is purely unidirectional. Movie folks can show up on a TV show and movie storylines can move the needle in the TV show, but the reverse doesn’t happen.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
New Warriors will mention or use a plot line from The Avengers comics to further its own story or as a background point but the Avengers won't ever mention something that happened within the confines of new Warriors, unless the point is to kill them all off and use them as a stupid motivation to cause the Civil War.
The movies are the big budget and highly advertised major comics, and Agents of Shield is that smaller comic. Shield is free to use the storyline from the movies to further its story but the movies won't ever mention what's happening within the show.
That does not mean that the show is any less enjoyable or part of the universe it just has its own role to play that is separate from the bigger budget movies. The Netflix shows follow the same thinking. They are all part of the MCU and the movies and shows don't usually step on each other but the movies won't ever mention the TV shows because in the grand scheme of things they don't matter in the storys that the movies are trying to tell.
And that's okay.
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