IM3 could have been a better movie if they had played Mandarin straight and just had him be a Batman style 'mastermind with guns & henchmen' villain. You don't even need to change the movie that much.
IM3 could have been a better movie if they had played Mandarin straight and just had him be a Batman style 'mastermind with guns & henchmen' villain. You don't even need to change the movie that much.
Hard disagree. The point of the Mandarin we got was that the Scary Foreign Terrorist villain was actually an illusion created to play on our fears, while the actual villain was a cynical white male corporatist.
When we first met the "Mandarin," I was actively disappointed in the movie for taking such a lazy, stereotyped route. I was delighted at the twist.
IM3 could have been a better movie if they had played Mandarin straight and just had him be a Batman style 'mastermind with guns & henchmen' villain. You don't even need to change the movie that much.
Hard disagree. The point of the Mandarin we got was that the Scary Foreign Terrorist villain was actually an illusion created to play on our fears, while the actual villain was a cynical white male corporatist.
When we first met the "Mandarin," I was actively disappointed in the movie for taking such a lazy, stereotyped route. I was delighted at the twist.
Good point. I don't think I've seen the movie since the theater, so my memory of the reveal is spotty.
the way they depict the mandarin even before the 'reveal' is super subversive, too; he looks less like bin laden or other stereotypical arab terrorist than he does those dudes from duck dynasty
and then the whole thing puts a nice bow on the 'tony vs. the military industrial complex' sub-theme they've had going the whole time
in general though IM3 wasn't great, for a variety of reasons. I'm always surprised when people really liked it
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It's still good now though. It's got weaknesses but all the MCU films do. But it's also full of some great stuff including an interesting hard look at Tony Stark and some really great work with the Mandarin stuff and an ending fight that's at the least interesting and inventive in concept.
Probably the most glaring issue imo is that Killian just isn't quite good enough as the villain of the piece.
Oh, I should say I wasn't trying to imply it was bad, just that there's a lot more great flicks to choose from these days. (I mean, shit, Black Panther, Ragnarok, Homecoming and GotG2 was a hell of a 4 hit combo.)
Can I just say that Thor coming down on a bolt of lightning to the rainbow bridge in slow motion is the absolute most comic book scene in the whole MCU? That is like a two page splash panel come to life. Only other thing that even comes close is the Valkyries taking on Hela, and that is in the same damn movie.
Probably the most glaring issue imo is that Killian just isn't quite good enough as the villain of the piece.
The second has got to be every main woman character who isn't Pepper. They were written terribly, and side lined because Marvel didn't want woman villains front and center.
Can I just say that Thor coming down on a bolt of lightning to the rainbow bridge in slow motion is the absolute most comic book scene in the whole MCU? That is like a two page splash panel come to life. Only other thing that even comes close is the Valkyries taking on Hela, and that is in the same damn movie.
The entire fight, with the music, might be the best scene in the MCU.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Probably the most glaring issue imo is that Killian just isn't quite good enough as the villain of the piece.
The second has got to be every main woman character who isn't Pepper. They were written terribly, and side lined because Marvel didn't want women villains front and center.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
I've been re-watching the MCU movies of late (in preparation for Infinity War!) and it strikes me that the only movie where Pepper and Tony have what feels like a real relationship--where she isn't just his annex or otherwise simply responding only to him--is in the Avengers.
Pretty disappointing, really.
And I'm still waiting for a goddamn Black Widow movie.
Can I just say that Thor coming down on a bolt of lightning to the rainbow bridge in slow motion is the absolute most comic book scene in the whole MCU? That is like a two page splash panel come to life. Only other thing that even comes close is the Valkyries taking on Hela, and that is in the same damn movie.
They do that several times in the movie and it works every time, even for skurge
Can I just say that Thor coming down on a bolt of lightning to the rainbow bridge in slow motion is the absolute most comic book scene in the whole MCU? That is like a two page splash panel come to life. Only other thing that even comes close is the Valkyries taking on Hela, and that is in the same damn movie.
The shot of him flying away from the dragon in the beginning was where I thought 'This is just going to be a series of 80's album covers joined together by a plot'.
I still think I wasn't totally wrong.
We finally caught Thor this on streaming this past weekend. Halfway through, my wife turns to me and says "This is the Most Comic Book Movie I've ever seen."
I cant count the amount of times i would watch ragnarok if i was 13.
Its one of those movies that i feel like will be very very special to certain kids in 20 years. Like how we (my friends and I, i wont speak for the people here) talk about Big Trouble in Little China, Rocketeer, Star Wars or the like.
Its got everything 13 year old me would ever want in a movie. Rock and roll, amazing action, humor, adventure, "that's what a hero would do!" lessons.......
erm.....Hela.....just sayin.....
and snappy one liners that will become just a part of the in-humor between friends.
Its all wrapped up in a package that is like custom made for repeat viewings of certain scenes.
Black Panther was a superior movie as far as FILM MAKING is concerned, but Ragnarok gives me a certain joy that takes me right back to those fantasy stories i loved so much as a kid. The kinds of stories that got me through really tough times. For that i will always love it. Even as an adult.
I am going to rewatch the heck out of both of those, though. I don't see either as superior to the other, they are both awesome.
Something feels like it gets lost in this ranking malarkey.
Yes! Agree. I didn't mean to like "rank" the two. Just that they scratch different itches.
Sorry Ninjeff, it wasn't directed at you, it was just how I end up feeling when I see any Top Ten Marvel Movies list, not specifically your post. I rewatch all kinds of Marvel stuff that gets low ranked on the regular, y'know? I agree, they scratch different itches and that's so satisfying, eh?
Like, I was thinking today how Black Panther scratched a very important itch for me, it felt like ... if Captain America was black ... in WW2 ... as the ideal they wanted to put on posters to sell war bonds or something. Bah, there has to be a better way to express this feeling, like ... its a really satisfying itch to have scratched where Black Panther was shown as so bad ass and good and ... something about that film resonated with me in a way that made me hope for a better future.
I wish I had someone else's words to use for this.
I am going to rewatch the heck out of both of those, though. I don't see either as superior to the other, they are both awesome.
Something feels like it gets lost in this ranking malarkey.
Yes! Agree. I didn't mean to like "rank" the two. Just that they scratch different itches.
Sorry Ninjeff, it wasn't directed at you, it was just how I end up feeling when I see any Top Ten Marvel Movies list, not specifically your post. I rewatch all kinds of Marvel stuff that gets low ranked on the regular, y'know? I agree, they scratch different itches and that's so satisfying, eh?
Like, I was thinking today how Black Panther scratched a very important itch for me, it felt like ... if Captain America was black ... in WW2 ... as the ideal they wanted to put on posters to sell war bonds or something. Bah, there has to be a better way to express this feeling, like ... its a really satisfying itch to have scratched where Black Panther was shown as so bad ass and good and ... something about that film resonated with me in a way that made me hope for a better future.
I wish I had someone else's words to use for this.
I think i know what you mean.
Like, he wasn't "good" because of some outside force adjusting his morals (like, say Iron Man) or good because he was on the "good guy" side (Hawkeye) Black Panther is good because he is just a moral and caring character that is hell bent on "doing the right thing" because its the right thing to do! He has integrity. He was written and acted in the right way that just makes you go "Yes. I would follow that guy into battle."
That certainly is part of it. There was this vibe to the whole thing, it was like ... if James Bond wasn't a womanizing asshole and black. That felt very inclusive. I've been ready for a long time for media that was less white washed, has powerful women in it, and has some wisdom to it.
Not sure how else to put this, it feels like T'Challa is what I hope Steve Rogers would become, a political leader as well as a battle field leader. He treats his position as king not as self aggrandizing but as a means to protect his people ... and he is black and women deserving of respect support and protect him. That's a powerful bit of hopeful and comforting imagery on a level I need right now, in some ways its very inspirational that maybe our world doesn't have to be as fucked up as it is.
God, I hope that makes sense.
Say, Marvel doesn't happen to have an uplifting First Nations character too, do they?
I'm having trouble thinking of a First Nations / NA character that isn't in the Mutants/X-Men sphere.
One thing that I really liked about Black Panther
He doesn't train, develop new tech, or get new powers to enable him to beat the bad guy. It's the same guy who almost killed him in the first fight, only he's even stronger now and has a vibranium suit. But T'Challa goes right at him anyway and wins. He's got the self confidence to say "I failed before, I won't fail again" and that is fun to watch.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Say, Marvel doesn't happen to have an uplifting First Nations character too, do they?
I think the best word to describe every Marvel First Nations character is "Problematic".
Closest would probably be Dani Moonstar, who we thought was going to be in a New Mutants horror mobie, but they are "adding another character" in reshoots, so....
But a)X-men, and b) still problematic
I'm having trouble thinking of a First Nations / NA character that isn't in the Mutants/X-Men sphere.
Red Wolf
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
American Eagle
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Chadwick Boseman did an interview where he elaborated on his belief that T'Challa as a protagonist was born with a "Vibranium spoon" in his mouth. He was raised not only to be the Black Panther, but to be the ruler of Wakanda. It's very hard to sympathize with or root for a protagonist like that, because you literally have nothing in common with that person, no matter how fundamentally good they may be. (Not to mention it makes for a boring story.)
So in a lot of ways, per Boseman, T'Challa had to go through an antagonist like Killmonger in order to become a hero in his own right. It's not just about fighting for good or being the best or having superpowers. It's about having a perspective that resonates with the audience and fighting for a goal they can believe in. As a purely African king who comes from wealth and has power, there is nothing inherent to T'Challa that makes him heroic in that regard. In particular, neither Africans nor African-Americans know where he is coming from, or why he is fighting, other than some vague notion of "the good". In fact, historical Wakandan policy has had the Black Panther actively work against pan-African and African-American interests, up to the point of a a king being willing to kill his brother and orphan his nephew, all in the name of isolationalism. So it would be more than understandable if the audience actually disliked T'Challa, because he wears the suit of a poisoned tree.
In some sense, Killmonger wins in the end. T'Challa disagrees with his methods, but ultimately subsumes his motivations and experiences. It is through Killmonger's perspective that T'Challa comes to learn about both the African and African-American struggles, and why he should fight for them.
Chadwick Boseman did an interview where he elaborated on his belief that T'Challa as a protagonist was born with a "Vibranium spoon" in his mouth. He was raised not only to be the Black Panther, but to be the ruler of Wakanda. It's very hard to sympathize with or root for a protagonist like that, because you literally have nothing in common with that person, no matter how fundamentally good they may be. (Not to mention it makes for a boring story.)
So in a lot of ways, per Boseman, T'Challa had to go through an antagonist like Killmonger in order to become a hero in his own right. It's not just about fighting for good or being the best or having superpowers. It's about having a perspective that resonates with the audience and fighting for a goal they can believe in. As a purely African king who comes from wealth and has power, there is nothing inherent to T'Challa that makes him heroic in that regard. In particular, neither Africans nor African-Americans know where he is coming from, or why he is fighting, other than some vague notion of "the good". In fact, historical Wakandan policy has had the Black Panther actively work against pan-African and African-American interests, up to the point of a a king being willing to kill his brother and orphan his nephew, all in the name of isolationalism. So it would be more than understandable if the audience actually disliked T'Challa, because he wears the suit of a poisoned tree.
In some sense, Killmonger wins in the end. T'Challa disagrees with his methods, but ultimately subsumes his motivations and experiences. It is through Killmonger's perspective that T'Challa comes to learn about both the African and African-American struggles, and why he should fight for them.
Nah,
Nakia
wins in the end,
she was arguing that position with T’Challa from the first scene, if he agreeing with Erik he’d be literally going to war with the world and creating a Wakandan empire.
Being wealthy or a king, while a distant experience to ordinary people, doesn’t make him an alien there is a large amount of character to sympathise with T’Challa, like his relationship with his family, disliking colonialism and racism, girlfriend issues, living up to is father’s legacy, being flawed, and having a good moral compass. It’s not like he or Wakanda were totes cool with the Western powered carving up Africa or oppressing the African Americans and others it’s just they thought interfereing would destroy their way of life and that was too high a price to pay. How conservative they were varied on the individual Wakandan.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I feel like nuance and word choice are just like, things we should not bother with any more.
I feel like nuance and word choice are just like, things we should not bother with any more.
Except there was no nuance in what Erik was advocating, he was very clear about what his goals were and they weren’t peace with the outside world. His tragic origins had merit to not repeat, which T’Challa agreed to stop the cycle, but in the end he submitted to Nakia’s ideals. Erik’s were that taken to super villain levels of terror. His interference convinced T’Challa that ultimately Nakia had the right idea all along.
Harry Dresden on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Dude can you do me a favor and re-read my post and tell me where I said Killmonger won because T'Challa wants to conquer the world? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. In fact I'm pretty sure I prefaced my point with a lot of qualifiers and clarification on precisely the ways in which Killmonger won, none of which included his actual (hypocritical) methods.
Is it just me or is this every single thread now? Am I just getting old, and this is my equivalent of "get off my lawn"? Being pissy about people not actually reading posts in D&D and just knee-jerk responding to the first thing they skim through?
I'm having trouble thinking of a First Nations / NA character that isn't in the Mutants/X-Men sphere.
One thing that I really liked about Black Panther
He doesn't train, develop new tech, or get new powers to enable him to beat the bad guy. It's the same guy who almost killed him in the first fight, only he's even stronger now and has a vibranium suit. But T'Challa goes right at him anyway and wins. He's got the self confidence to say "I failed before, I won't fail again" and that is fun to watch.
Arguably, he
loses the first fight because of internal conflicts. Once he settles himself about what he wants to do, he's able to win.
Dude can you do me a favor and re-read my post and tell me where I said Killmonger won because T'Challa wants to conquer the world? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. In fact I'm pretty sure I prefaced my point with a lot of qualifiers and clarification on precisely the ways in which Killmonger won, none of which included his actual (hypocritical) methods.
Is it just me or is this every single thread now? Am I just getting old, and this is my equivalent of "get off my lawn"? Being pissy about people not actually reading posts in D&D and just knee-jerk responding to the first thing they skim through?
It's probably me.
Relax, we just disagree on some points.
I think we agree that he needed to experience Killmonger, just like he needed to experience Helmut Zemo. Part of what makes T'Challa so awesome is his understanding of his enemies and his own wisdom to not follow their antagonistic path in his own actions.
I guess this next part is pretty spoilery, so *click*
Where we disagree is on is that in some sense Killmonger wins in the end,
what I saw was that in the end, Killmonger let the hate that burned in him for the injustices he sought revenge against, that hate led him to self destruct by not seeking the help of T'Challa to heal from the mortal wound because he was convinced that would lead to bondage.
Not moments later (after the credits) we see again that Wakanda is helping to heal Bucky mentally, not just physcially, a man who T'Challa once sought to do harm to because he thought he was an enemy of the state. Earlier in the film, T'Challa is asking for allies in the fight with his former challenger, who because he gave him mercy in the ritual fight to the death when he was defeated (wonder if he would have done that if he hadn't first gone through with not killing Zemo) helped keep him alive after fishing him out of the water.
Please understand I mean this respectfully, but no Killmonger doesn't even slightly win. Killmonger explicitly loses in the end because his hate consumes him, despite any reasonable empathy we might feel for him because the source of that hate were horrible systemic injustices. He was ultimately a fool for letting it consume him when he could have been saved and Wakanda would have done more than just heal his body if he had let them.
That does not come across as T'Challa taking on the motivations of Killmonger, like at all. Killmonger would not have done outreach and diplomacy, those just weren't his motivations.
Posts
Hard disagree. The point of the Mandarin we got was that the Scary Foreign Terrorist villain was actually an illusion created to play on our fears, while the actual villain was a cynical white male corporatist.
When we first met the "Mandarin," I was actively disappointed in the movie for taking such a lazy, stereotyped route. I was delighted at the twist.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Good point. I don't think I've seen the movie since the theater, so my memory of the reveal is spotty.
and then the whole thing puts a nice bow on the 'tony vs. the military industrial complex' sub-theme they've had going the whole time
in general though IM3 wasn't great, for a variety of reasons. I'm always surprised when people really liked it
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Probably the most glaring issue imo is that Killian just isn't quite good enough as the villain of the piece.
Oh, I should say I wasn't trying to imply it was bad, just that there's a lot more great flicks to choose from these days. (I mean, shit, Black Panther, Ragnarok, Homecoming and GotG2 was a hell of a 4 hit combo.)
Reverse villain reveal in Spiderman: Homecoming was better, but it was hard to top for sure.
The second has got to be every main woman character who isn't Pepper. They were written terribly, and side lined because Marvel didn't want woman villains front and center.
The entire fight, with the music, might be the best scene in the MCU.
Pretty disappointing, really.
And I'm still waiting for a goddamn Black Widow movie.
They do that several times in the movie and it works every time, even for skurge
I still think I wasn't totally wrong.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Its one of those movies that i feel like will be very very special to certain kids in 20 years. Like how we (my friends and I, i wont speak for the people here) talk about Big Trouble in Little China, Rocketeer, Star Wars or the like.
Its got everything 13 year old me would ever want in a movie. Rock and roll, amazing action, humor, adventure, "that's what a hero would do!" lessons.......
erm.....Hela.....just sayin.....
and snappy one liners that will become just a part of the in-humor between friends.
Its all wrapped up in a package that is like custom made for repeat viewings of certain scenes.
Black Panther was a superior movie as far as FILM MAKING is concerned, but Ragnarok gives me a certain joy that takes me right back to those fantasy stories i loved so much as a kid. The kinds of stories that got me through really tough times. For that i will always love it. Even as an adult.
Something feels like it gets lost in this ranking malarkey.
Yes! Agree. I didn't mean to like "rank" the two. Just that they scratch different itches.
hard agree
fakeedit: ...phrasing?
Sorry Ninjeff, it wasn't directed at you, it was just how I end up feeling when I see any Top Ten Marvel Movies list, not specifically your post. I rewatch all kinds of Marvel stuff that gets low ranked on the regular, y'know? I agree, they scratch different itches and that's so satisfying, eh?
Like, I was thinking today how Black Panther scratched a very important itch for me, it felt like ... if Captain America was black ... in WW2 ... as the ideal they wanted to put on posters to sell war bonds or something. Bah, there has to be a better way to express this feeling, like ... its a really satisfying itch to have scratched where Black Panther was shown as so bad ass and good and ... something about that film resonated with me in a way that made me hope for a better future.
I wish I had someone else's words to use for this.
I think i know what you mean.
Like, he wasn't "good" because of some outside force adjusting his morals (like, say Iron Man) or good because he was on the "good guy" side (Hawkeye) Black Panther is good because he is just a moral and caring character that is hell bent on "doing the right thing" because its the right thing to do! He has integrity. He was written and acted in the right way that just makes you go "Yes. I would follow that guy into battle."
Not sure how else to put this, it feels like T'Challa is what I hope Steve Rogers would become, a political leader as well as a battle field leader. He treats his position as king not as self aggrandizing but as a means to protect his people ... and he is black and women deserving of respect support and protect him. That's a powerful bit of hopeful and comforting imagery on a level I need right now, in some ways its very inspirational that maybe our world doesn't have to be as fucked up as it is.
God, I hope that makes sense.
Say, Marvel doesn't happen to have an uplifting First Nations character too, do they?
I think the best word to describe every Marvel First Nations character is "Problematic".
One thing that I really liked about Black Panther
Closest would probably be Dani Moonstar, who we thought was going to be in a New Mutants horror mobie, but they are "adding another character" in reshoots, so....
But a)X-men, and b) still problematic
Red Wolf
So in a lot of ways, per Boseman, T'Challa had to go through an antagonist like Killmonger in order to become a hero in his own right. It's not just about fighting for good or being the best or having superpowers. It's about having a perspective that resonates with the audience and fighting for a goal they can believe in. As a purely African king who comes from wealth and has power, there is nothing inherent to T'Challa that makes him heroic in that regard. In particular, neither Africans nor African-Americans know where he is coming from, or why he is fighting, other than some vague notion of "the good". In fact, historical Wakandan policy has had the Black Panther actively work against pan-African and African-American interests, up to the point of a a king being willing to kill his brother and orphan his nephew, all in the name of isolationalism. So it would be more than understandable if the audience actually disliked T'Challa, because he wears the suit of a poisoned tree.
In some sense, Killmonger wins in the end. T'Challa disagrees with his methods, but ultimately subsumes his motivations and experiences. It is through Killmonger's perspective that T'Challa comes to learn about both the African and African-American struggles, and why he should fight for them.
Nah,
Being wealthy or a king, while a distant experience to ordinary people, doesn’t make him an alien there is a large amount of character to sympathise with T’Challa, like his relationship with his family, disliking colonialism and racism, girlfriend issues, living up to is father’s legacy, being flawed, and having a good moral compass. It’s not like he or Wakanda were totes cool with the Western powered carving up Africa or oppressing the African Americans and others it’s just they thought interfereing would destroy their way of life and that was too high a price to pay. How conservative they were varied on the individual Wakandan.
Except there was no nuance in what Erik was advocating, he was very clear about what his goals were and they weren’t peace with the outside world. His tragic origins had merit to not repeat, which T’Challa agreed to stop the cycle, but in the end he submitted to Nakia’s ideals. Erik’s were that taken to super villain levels of terror. His interference convinced T’Challa that ultimately Nakia had the right idea all along.
Is it just me or is this every single thread now? Am I just getting old, and this is my equivalent of "get off my lawn"? Being pissy about people not actually reading posts in D&D and just knee-jerk responding to the first thing they skim through?
It's probably me.
Arguably, he
Relax, we just disagree on some points.
I think we agree that he needed to experience Killmonger, just like he needed to experience Helmut Zemo. Part of what makes T'Challa so awesome is his understanding of his enemies and his own wisdom to not follow their antagonistic path in his own actions.
I guess this next part is pretty spoilery, so *click*
Where we disagree is on is that in some sense Killmonger wins in the end,
Not moments later (after the credits) we see again that Wakanda is helping to heal Bucky mentally, not just physcially, a man who T'Challa once sought to do harm to because he thought he was an enemy of the state. Earlier in the film, T'Challa is asking for allies in the fight with his former challenger, who because he gave him mercy in the ritual fight to the death when he was defeated (wonder if he would have done that if he hadn't first gone through with not killing Zemo) helped keep him alive after fishing him out of the water.
Please understand I mean this respectfully, but no Killmonger doesn't even slightly win. Killmonger explicitly loses in the end because his hate consumes him, despite any reasonable empathy we might feel for him because the source of that hate were horrible systemic injustices. He was ultimately a fool for letting it consume him when he could have been saved and Wakanda would have done more than just heal his body if he had let them.
That does not come across as T'Challa taking on the motivations of Killmonger, like at all. Killmonger would not have done outreach and diplomacy, those just weren't his motivations.