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[Altered Carbon] Robocop in Blade Runner on LSD

Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
edited February 2018 in Debate and/or Discourse
Based on the novels by Richard K. Morgan, and developed by Laeta Kalogridis (Bionic Woman, Birds of Prey) Netlix unveils a cyberpunk show to the world:



Starring Joel Kinnaman (Robocop, Suicide Squad, The Killing).

Features about Altered Carbon and its mythology







Which gives you a glimpse of what the series has to offer before downloading yourself onto Netflix where Takeshi Kovacs' awaits.

Harry Dresden on
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  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Hoo boy, the trailer makes it look like they're following the mystery plot of the first book

    Coincidentally, the only one I've read because the mystery was hot garbage. I'll take a wait and see on this series.

    I do love the setting and world building though. Has anybody read the other books? Are they any good?

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  • AstharielAsthariel The Book Eater Registered User regular
    I read second book and it was so boring, that I remember almost nothing about it. It almost never happens to me. That should tell you how boring the plot there was.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I liked the first book but this is an adaption I am hoping will improve on the source material rather than attempt to live up to it.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I liked the first book but this is an adaption I am hoping will improve on the source material rather than attempt to live up to it.

    apparently they're
    changing the Envoys from a government agency to a rebel group

    and keeping lots of the quasi porny stuff

    Solar
  • AbsalonAbsalon Registered User regular
    I remember being totally on board with the pornographic stuff simply because of how out of left field it was.

    Apparently, reviews are complaining about the plot being too convoluted, which probably means it is about as complicated as the average murder mystery you would see in a crime novel with no simplification for the screen format.

    DisruptedCapitalist
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I liked the first book but this is an adaption I am hoping will improve on the source material rather than attempt to live up to it.

    apparently they're
    changing the Envoys from a government agency to a rebel group

    and keeping lots of the quasi porny stuff

    I 100% don't mind the sex stuff. I always have a real bee in my bonnet about extreme violence being fine but regular sex being too much.

    Harry DresdenMancingtomCauldGiggles_FunsworthNightslyrTOGSolidEl Muchoautono-wally, erotibot300Moridin889lazegamerDouglasDangerHefflingForar
  • Operative21Operative21 Registered User regular
    I'm two episodes in and enjoying the series thus far. I do like that they're very much emphasizing the use of envoy intuition. Not sure how I feel about
    the alteration of the envoys from the Protectorate's military wrath to a rebel group, or the changes to Quell and Takeshi's relationship. The lack of Virginia Vidaura could also prove rather problematic if they choose to do later sequels that involve the later books.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I liked the first book but this is an adaption I am hoping will improve on the source material rather than attempt to live up to it.

    apparently they're
    changing the Envoys from a government agency to a rebel group

    and keeping lots of the quasi porny stuff

    I 100% don't mind the sex stuff. I always have a real bee in my bonnet about extreme violence being fine but regular sex being too much.

    Its not regular sex stuff

    its lots of sexual violence

    DisruptedCapitalistMatev
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    the problem is fundamentally that the "plot" of altered carbon was never the selling point, and neither was the main character - he had almost no personality, and was basically just "here is cool envoy soldier guy who does cool shit and has dope mental conditioning yo"

    it was fundamentally a conceit that people enjoyed - "hey we can upload BROINS and have new bodies thats COOL" - and the second and third novels being about weird martian bird aliens and nanotech and stuff meant that everybody gave way less of a shit

    so i would be surprised if a straight adaptation was a success or what they will try and go for

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  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    I loved these books, and the character in particular, so my hopes for an adaptation were/are unreasonably high. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm not liking any of the changes I've read about, especially regarding Kovacs politics and motivation.

    OH WELL. I'll watch it and try to keep my expectations down to the level of pretty good scifi tv show.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Solar wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I liked the first book but this is an adaption I am hoping will improve on the source material rather than attempt to live up to it.

    apparently they're
    changing the Envoys from a government agency to a rebel group

    and keeping lots of the quasi porny stuff

    I 100% don't mind the sex stuff. I always have a real bee in my bonnet about extreme violence being fine but regular sex being too much.

    The problem is that the writer throws in random porno scenes that don't seem to be there for any other reason than the author couldn't come up with ways to make the story itself interesting, and does the same thing with the violence.

    So the book (I only read the first one) is already leaning on sex and violence as major crutches, which does not bode well for the series version since those almost invariably end up doing the same even when the story doesn't really need it.

    Not a big deal to me regardless, apparently the one book I read of this is the good one, and I was barely able to force myself to finish it. I just could not at all get into the premise of the setting. How is there any kind of interesting drama at all when all the major players can pretty much just load up a new body if they die or get injured or just get bored? And there was almost zero exploration of how the technology would actually change humanity, because post-sleeve humanity seems to work the exact same way as it did before sleeves existed.

    I'll be interested when somebody makes a series out a cyberpunk setting that's got something of actual value to it, instead of a second-rate mystery writer who tries to gloss over his work's shortcomings by tossing in ultra-violence and porn here and there.

    Ninja Snarl P on
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Couple episodes in and I'm enjoying this so far. I'm a huge fan of the first book, despite its problematic parts, so I did have very high expectations for this.

    bit unclear what they've done with the Enovy backstory stuff but I think
    it's that the Envoys were Protectorate soldiers like usual in the book, some went rogue at one point with the Unsettlement led by Quell. It's been a while since I last read the book but this doesn't feel too far removed

    also RE: the sex scenes, Richard Morgan has 2 sex scenes in literally every book I've read of his (5 or 6 of them) like clockwork. You can see them coming a mile away. I've never felt the sex scenes themselves added all that much, it was more about the relationships that said sex scenes involved

    Anzekay on
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    edited February 2018
    I'd not heard of the books, but the first episode made a really good impression. I like the premise, the world looks amazing, and I absolutely loved the hotel setup and scene.

    Part of that may have been due to, "Is that Helo? That looks like Helo. It is Helo! :D " Also the hotel manager <3

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  • taliosfalcontaliosfalcon Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Quite liked the books, just watched the first episode and it seemed pretty good. Well done netflix. And has been said, the hotel is so awesome.

    Initial reviews seem to be kinda mixed, so i was wary going in but it's much better than they lead me to believe.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Yeah the hotel scene is super iconic from the book. It's a bit different but still really good

    we're at like episode 7 now and boy I'm very impressed. It's very good, and they've changed stuff enough that I'm being surprised and hooked in ways I didn't expect.

    SolarDevlin_Dragonus
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Anzekay wrote: »
    Yeah the hotel scene is super iconic from the book. It's a bit different but still really good

    we're at like episode 7 now and boy I'm very impressed. It's very good, and they've changed stuff enough that I'm being surprised and hooked in ways I didn't expect.

    I'm on episode 3 and (likely super-spoiler)
    Goddamnit Tak's sister is going to be Reileen Kawahara, isn't she?

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Tiger Burning
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    I wanted to watch this on the train on my way to work, but now I can't because of all the sex scenes. So the are definitely having a negative effect on my ability to enjoy the show and I wish they wouldn't include it.

  • AstharielAsthariel The Book Eater Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    I watched entire season.

    Ultimately, I would give 7+/10 - it's mostly good, I enjoyed even the changes made to the original story, but oh boy, there is one thing I hated with a passion of a thousand suns and it soured my whole experience.

    FULL SEASON SPOILERS

    In the book, Reileen was rather average villain - sure, her plan was understandable, but she wasn't very charismatic, and she had no connection to Kovacs, so killing her wasn't very dramatic. To fix this, they changed her in this series to become a relative of main hero, which in my opinion backfired horribly. It turned main villain into the most embarassing, cringy anime trope possible.

    She is just an obsessed little sister in love with her older brother now.

    And it doesn't work! She still has her motives from the book (make money of suppling prostitutes for depraved clientele), but a second set of motivations was added to her original character (make bro notice her), and it doesn't. Bloody. Work. She becomes two different characters under the same name - she is a diabolical criminal mastermind in one scene, and braindead idiot in the other, she is charismatic smooth operator in one moment, and then absolutely pathetic fool that I wouldn't trust with buying cereal in local shop later, it just doesn't fit! Takeshi only finds out about her being the big bad because she brings him to the place which has her other sleeves stored! Lady, are you an idiot? Yes, yes she is, because she asks Dmitri, psychopatic russian mercenary of all people, to bring Kovacs to her at the start of the series, which ends predictably. I could go on and on about her, but my point is - it was better to have average main villain than to have a pathetic one that I absolutely cannot take seriously.

    Also, there is no Trepp here, which is just sad.

    Still, despite this and some other flaws, I enjoyed this series, and I will watch the second season when it comes out.

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  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    They better have Trepp in the show!

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Road Block
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    They better have Trepp in the show!
    sorry

    but some of the other side characters get beefed up and are great!

  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Asthariel wrote: »
    I watched entire season.

    Ultimately, I would give 7+/10 - it's mostly good, I enjoyed even the changes made to the original story, but oh boy, there is one thing I hated with a passion of a thousand suns and it soured my whole experience.

    FULL SEASON SPOILERS

    In the book, Reileen was rather average villain - sure, her plan was understandable, but she wasn't very charismatic, and she had no connection to Kovacs, so killing her wasn't very dramatic. To fix this, they changed her in this series to become a relative of main hero, which in my opinion backfired horribly. It turned main villain into the most embarassing, cringy anime trope possible.

    She is just an obsessed little sister in love with her older brother now.

    And it doesn't work! She still has her motives from the book (make money of suppling prostitutes for depraved clientele), but a second set of motivations was added to her original character (make bro notice her), and it doesn't. Bloody. Work. She becomes two different characters under the same name - she is a diabolical criminal mastermind in one scene, and braindead idiot in the other, she is charismatic smooth operator in one moment, and then absolutely pathetic fool that I wouldn't trust with buying cereal in local shop later, it just doesn't fit! Takeshi only finds out about her being the big bad because she brings him to the place which has her other sleeves stored! Lady, are you an idiot? Yes, yes she is, because she asks Dmitri, psychopatic russian mercenary of all people, to bring Kovacs to her at the start of the series, which ends predictably. I could go on and on about her, but my point is - it was better to have average main villain than to have a pathetic one that I absolutely cannot take seriously.

    Also, there is no Trepp here, which is just sad.

    Still, despite this and some other flaws, I enjoyed this series, and I will watch the second season when it comes out.

    so, I grok your complaint in the spoiler but I'm not sure that I agree that it ruins things as much as you say it does

    anyway we have an episode left and I'm really really impressed with the series. I have some problems, bit disappointed with how they did a few things (and a few changes from the book), and I have my ever-persistent cyberpunk-focused issues at the moment but it's at least a solid 8, 8.5 from me.

    Anzekay on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    Why is Poe not played by Paul f thompkins

    Giggles_FunsworthHakkekageHacksawmysticjuicer
  • CauldCauld Registered User regular
    Was about to watch this last night, but we decided on something else. I did notice that its not in 4k. Anyone know why? seems like the perfect show for it.

  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Asthariel wrote: »
    I watched entire season.

    Ultimately, I would give 7+/10 - it's mostly good, I enjoyed even the changes made to the original story, but oh boy, there is one thing I hated with a passion of a thousand suns and it soured my whole experience.

    FULL SEASON SPOILERS

    In the book, Reileen was rather average villain - sure, her plan was understandable, but she wasn't very charismatic, and she had no connection to Kovacs, so killing her wasn't very dramatic. To fix this, they changed her in this series to become a relative of main hero, which in my opinion backfired horribly. It turned main villain into the most embarassing, cringy anime trope possible.

    She is just an obsessed little sister in love with her older brother now.

    And it doesn't work! She still has her motives from the book (make money of suppling prostitutes for depraved clientele), but a second set of motivations was added to her original character (make bro notice her), and it doesn't. Bloody. Work. She becomes two different characters under the same name - she is a diabolical criminal mastermind in one scene, and braindead idiot in the other, she is charismatic smooth operator in one moment, and then absolutely pathetic fool that I wouldn't trust with buying cereal in local shop later, it just doesn't fit! Takeshi only finds out about her being the big bad because she brings him to the place which has her other sleeves stored! Lady, are you an idiot? Yes, yes she is, because she asks Dmitri, psychopatic russian mercenary of all people, to bring Kovacs to her at the start of the series, which ends predictably. I could go on and on about her, but my point is - it was better to have average main villain than to have a pathetic one that I absolutely cannot take seriously.

    Also, there is no Trepp here, which is just sad.

    Still, despite this and some other flaws, I enjoyed this series, and I will watch the second season when it comes out.
    I took it as her using her memory of the love for her brother as something she just uses to justify everything she does. I mean she seems to have a tonne of resources and money, yet she waited 250 years to get her brother back and then there's the implication that there was some relief when she finally died. Choosing permanent death cannot be easy when immortality is optional, but that kind of life has to become weary. You're pushing 300 and still a brothel madam.

    AnzekayDevlin_DragonusMatev
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Why is Poe not played by Paul f thompkins

    With the hat in episode 2 or 3, I can't stop picturing him as Dean Stockwell anymore.

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    This show is maximum cyberpunk.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    I continue to be disconcerted by the tattoos that the ganger sleeve has. Could they have not chosen other tattooed actors? Did they do that intentionally?

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Operative21Operative21 Registered User regular
    I enjoyed the show, but I still think the book is by far superior in the progression and flow of its story. I'm still not sure why they decided on some of the choices they made.
    Turning the envoys into a rebel group seems pointlessly convoluted to me. The envoy corp as it was in the books was a perfect double edged blade, as both a benefit and a curse to the main character. At first I was wary about making Quell into a love interest, but I can at least see the benefits there towards making it easier to explain Kovacs' reverence for her to an audience unfamiliar with the books.

    I actually quite liked the change to the hotel with Poe being a far more interesting character than the Hendrix was in the books. Plus the idea of an AI Hotel management Union was a fun addition that I rather liked.

    I was oddly disappointed by the scene where Kovacs goes shopping for hardware. I feel like the book version had a much more interesting setting with Bancroft's personal armourers. The scene in the show just seemed more like more of the usual 'shady streetdeal' or 'dingy gunshop' setup that is far too common when it comes to acquiring weapons.

    Comparing the final few episodes to the ending portions of the book it definitely seemed like they had to pad the plot a bit in order to draw out its length. The run on head in the clouds was definitely vastly different from the book version (which frankly, I prefer). That being said, I don't fault them the changes. I suspect they probably wanted to make the supporting characters more than just background support and give them a bit more screen time and focus, and prevent the show from being focused purely on Kovacs. To their credit, sometimes it works quite well (Poe's scenes, and Ortega's scenes being a good example) and sometimes it doesn't (Lizzie going violent at the end).

    If I had to choose one addition I really really liked though, I'd have to say the scene where Ortega spins up her grandmother in the body of a perp was very solid. It did an awesome job of really confronting the uncomfortable social dynamics caused by the ability to re-sleeve.

  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Two episodes in.

    So far my favorite character is the Hotel.
    At first I thought he was supposed to just be a greeter robot, but I like that he's actually a full-blown artificial intelligence.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    btw I believe they changed the hotel because they couldn't get the rights to use anything Jimmy Hendrix related

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I continue to be disconcerted by the tattoos that the ganger sleeve has. Could they have not chosen other tattooed actors? Did they do that intentionally?

    That was likely the point
    to serve as an example of Ortega's grandmother feeling free in this new, weird body and serve as a future sleeve for Dmitri. I'd very surprised if those tattoos were genuine, it'd be simple for them to put fake tattoos on an actor for the role - that's how it's usually done.

    The sleeve is a logical cheap alternative Ortega would have access to at her precinct.

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  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I continue to be disconcerted by the tattoos that the ganger sleeve has. Could they have not chosen other tattooed actors? Did they do that intentionally?

    That was likely the point
    to serve as an example of Ortega's grandmother feeling free in this new, weird body and serve as a future sleeve for Dmitri.

    It was a little lazy in having a skinhead 300 years in the future have the same tats a skinhead today would have.

    Half way through and it’s not too bad. I’m ambivalent about some of the changes to Kovacs past, and worried about the big change I have yet to get to, but all in all it’s a decent adaptation so far.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I continue to be disconcerted by the tattoos that the ganger sleeve has. Could they have not chosen other tattooed actors? Did they do that intentionally?

    That was likely the point
    to serve as an example of Ortega's grandmother feeling free in this new, weird body and serve as a future sleeve for Dmitri. I'd very surprised if those tattoos were genuine, it'd be simple for them to put fake tattoos on an actor for the role - that's how it's usually done.

    The sleeve is a logical cheap alternative Ortega would have access to at her precinct.

    Sure but the literal Nazi tattoos probably werent necessary. Certainly there would be new horrible people 300 years in the future and new symbols they could have used

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited February 2018
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I continue to be disconcerted by the tattoos that the ganger sleeve has. Could they have not chosen other tattooed actors? Did they do that intentionally?

    That was likely the point
    to serve as an example of Ortega's grandmother feeling free in this new, weird body and serve as a future sleeve for Dmitri. I'd very surprised if those tattoos were genuine, it'd be simple for them to put fake tattoos on an actor for the role - that's how it's usually done.

    The sleeve is a logical cheap alternative Ortega would have access to at her precinct.

    Sure but the literal Nazi tattoos probably werent necessary. Certainly there would be new horrible people 300 years in the future and new symbols they could have used

    They could have, but unless someone on screen bought it up the audience wouldn't be able to identify it being nazi based. I think they wanted to show Nazis do exist, but not enough to make it a plot point or a conversation
    which also could have been to distracting from the Neo-Catholic argument when Ortega bought her grandmother to dinner.

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  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    Aaand that ruined it. So many bad narrative decisions packed into one episode yikes.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    This is way, way, worse than I expected(I stopped watching at episode 8th, completely uninterested how they "wrap up" whatever they have going).
    If they butcher a straight noir that badly, I'm 100% fine with never getting any of Morgan on screen again.

  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Nice to spot small nods to things they cut from the book. Plenty of mohawks at the Fell Street precinct.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    Anzekay
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Huh, I really enjoyed this. My policy of not reading genre fiction until relevant adaptations are complete remains a strong safeguard of enjoyment.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    Huh, I really enjoyed this. My policy of not reading genre fiction until relevant adaptations are complete remains a strong safeguard of enjoyment.

    The book is quite good, but I enjoyed this adaptation roughly as much as I did the book I think? There's only a couple of alterations they made that I didn't like, and they made up for a lot of those by developing a whole bunch of side characters way more than the books did.

  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I'm 3 episodes in and I think it's totally ok but not more. With the staggering budget I would have kind of hoped for something a bit better though.

    I'll complain mainly about the dialogue writing being often bad. Also the main character. They make Kinnaman do comedic/sarcastic quips constantly and it's painfully clear that he has no timing whatsoever. Every quip so far has fallen completely flat, and they're in most scenes with him. They could have noticed he couldn't deliver them and adapted the writing or something.

    PSN: Honkalot
    Cauld
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