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The Mueller Investigation Thread - in which Rudy Guiliani talks about obstruction

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    If this judge *does* allow the investigation to go ahead, he better look forward to suddenly becoming part of the "deep state" and the conspiracy against Trump, no matter how much a Republican he is.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Yeah, the judge is being aggressive, but not particularly unreasonable
    Was this the same judge that ruled on the dismissal stuff from Manafort?

    Cause I've come around to your way of thinking after initially going "WTF?".

    Judges challenging things to make sure nothing is hinky, both in Manafort re "I don't have a rational argument, please vacate the charges", and potential shenanigans from the prosecutor to make sure this case is about THIS case, and that it's not being used as a fishing exhibition for THAT case.

    It's one thing for a prosecutor to use a threat of legal action to get accomodation for a plea deal. It's another to have the prosecution waste a judge's time, for the primary purpose of getting a conviction/flippage elsewhere. As long as that's what the judge is making sure isn't happening, I'm okay with that line of grilling.

    Manafort's previous civil case asking for dismissal was dismissed by a different judge.

  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I'm all for judges questioning this and that, but those weren't questions, they were flat out statements concerning a separate theoretical case

  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    I think there's a difference between being critical/tough on the prosecution by grilling them, and mocking them or assigning corrupt motives to them without reason. The article sounds like the latter to me, and it's concerning.

    I'm not, like, ordering pitchforks from Amazon or anything, but I am concerned.

  • Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Meh, i have to think Mueller's faced tougher than this before.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    This is the sort of thing my debate coach would do to us, just to see if we would be rattled and could form a proper defense of our position under assault from all sides. I was led to believe that some judges do this sort of thing to ensure that the target of such has as robust a case as possible. Something about protecting their (the judge's) decisions from scrutiny during appeal attempts.

    I mean, maybe it's nefarious, but it feels pretty familiar to me.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Also, the precedence here is going to be nuts, so the judge probably wants to be careful

  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    "Your honor I too wish this case was unnecessary. If the defendant were at all competent there would be no evidence linking him to Russia or the executive office. Unfortunately he's really shitty at crime."

    The judge was being a little hostile, but seeing how insane any trial will be from where he's sitting I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. It's not unreasonable to ask someone who's towing such a whirlwind of shit behind them where they plan on parking.

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    I imagine this is going to an appeal no matter how the ruling lands anyway?

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    It is possible to appeal pretrial rulings in criminal cases, I don't know all the federal rules about that though.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    [.

    Gaddez on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    spool32 wrote: »
    Could be the reason Manafort hasn't rolled yet... they knew they drew Judge Maga

    Even though I didn’t expect the questions the judge is putting forward, but I didn’t think a trial is necessarily disastrous for him. If and when the procedural questions are resolved and the case goes forward, it’ll involve a jury. And juries, more than judges, are full of surprises.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Elki wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Could be the reason Manafort hasn't rolled yet... they knew they drew Judge Maga

    Even though I didn’t expect the questions the judge is putting forward, but I didn’t think a trial is necessarily disastrous for him. If and when the procedural questions are resolved and the case goes forward, it’ll involve a jury. And juries, more than judges, are full of surprises.
    I should get that printed on a banner and hang it up somewhere because that shit is the absolute truth. Worried as I was by the judge's comments today that's nothing compared to what may happen in the trial or at its conclusion. But then after that the judge handles the sentencing if a guilty verdict comes so WHEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

  • GyralGyral Registered User regular
    So that thing Trump brought Rudy in for could possibly not happen because Rudy spent too much time working with foreign clients.

    Security clearance for Russia probe may be hard for Giuliani: legal experts

    An excerpt:
    Giuliani’s work as a lawyer and security and business consultant during the past 16 years has included assignments on behalf of the government of Mexico City and the Qatari state oil company.

    Many of his clients have not been publicly disclosed.

    The contacts could raise red flags during his background check about his susceptibility to foreign influence, according to some legal experts. The security clearances are typically issued by the U.S. Department of Justice after FBI review.

    The contacts could “cause a significant delay, if not outright denial,” of clearance, said Virginia lawyer John V. Berry, who specializes in the area.

    Berry said a slow clearance may be an issue if Giuliani negotiates with U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller, who is looking into conclusions of intelligence agencies that Moscow interfered in the 2016 U.S. election.

    “It’s hard to represent someone without knowing what’s in the files,” Berry said.

    Washington national security lawyer Bradley Moss said he thought Trump’s team might ultimately decide it was too much trouble to get Giuliani a security clearance and “just keep him in the big picture.” Moss pointed out Giuliani has acted as the public face of the Trump team since coming aboard.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Hasn't Trump, in the past, just given folks temporary security clearance on the grounds of "lolz fuck it"? Will this practically impede anything?

    You know, assuming Giuliani isn't preemptively canned for being a trash fire.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • FawstFawst The road to awe.Registered User regular
    Yes, look at Kushner. The temporary status is for people who are expected to actually, you know, get the clearance. But in his case, it was just “yeah, whatever, here.”

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Hasn't Trump, in the past, just given folks temporary security clearance on the grounds of "lolz fuck it"? Will this practically impede anything?

    You know, assuming Giuliani isn't preemptively canned for being a trash fire.

    No thankfully Trump seems unaware of this power.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Mueller interviewed Tom Barrack. He is the closest thing Trump has to a friend, and also a much more successful real estate person than Trump. Also introduced Manafort to Trump and was paying Gates until he was indicted. Marshall has a thread about him and the weird post office deal:

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mueller interviewed Tom Barrack. He is the closest thing Trump has to a friend, and also a much more successful real estate person than Trump. Also introduced Manafort to Trump and was paying Gates until he was indicted. Marshall has a thread about him and the weird post office deal:


    The TLDR as far as I understand it is that Trump won a bid because he had the financial backing of Tom Barrack's real estate company. Which then mysteriously dropped him the instant he won the bid. Trump then used that bid as collateral to secure loans from Deutsche Bank. This was at the height of the birther thing so the government didn't want to contest the issue for fear of a media firestorm. But it's super weird because it's essentially Tom Barrack loaning his good name to Trump for zero return.

  • AbacusAbacus Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    So, the (apparent) transcripts of the exchange between the Judge and Team Mueller got leaked by NY attorney @tecnho_fog. Can check it on Wikileaks and Zerohedge has an article about it. Also, PDF here.

    The problem was is that, well, this entire Manafort thing about back fraud on the 2000's IS about putting pressure on Manafort in order to get him to squeal on Trump.

    That's perfectly fine and not illegal. But the SC decided to not be upfront about it and dodge the question when pressed. The judge didn't liked that. Also, he asked to see the uncensored Rosenstein memo that expands the scope of the investigation since apparently it now covers Manafort's old crimes and the SC said no. The judge also didn't liked that.

    Abacus on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    That judge really likes to talk and tell stories.

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  • rpshoggothrpshoggoth Registered User regular
    That felt really impressive to read. I've gotten to used to such utter, stomping on their own dicks trying to tapdance in clownshoes idiocy, that seeing competent, intelligent professionals plying their trade is amazing.

    It also sounded to me like the judge really just wants to run down and clarify everything. I didn't take is as hostile, just curmudgeony and thorough. IANAL etc of course.

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    The judge asks the special councils budget, and when the investigation is to be over. Is that normal?

    Also asking about classified documents then having this leak so quickly...

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    It does seem a bit like the judge was pissed that the SC was being evasive, and acting like he wanted to slip something by without the judge noticing. Not sure why, but I could see why they might hold their feet to the fire a bit.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-rule-president-amendment-russia/story?id=54962255
    Giuliani said to ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos in an exclusive interview on "This Week" Sunday, "How could I be confident" that president won't take the Fifth Amendment The former New York City mayor also commented on the possibility of Trump getting subpoenaed by the special counsel to testify. "We don't have to" comply with a subpoena, he said.

    "They don't have a case on collusion, they don't have obstruction... I'm going to walk him into a prosecution for perjury like Martha Stewart did?" Giuliani said. "He's the president of the United States. We can assert privilege other presidents [have]."
    Executive privilege to avoid a legal inquiry does not have a good history of being used by non-crooks.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    They don't have a case on collusion, because collusion is not the actual crime.

  • AbacusAbacus Registered User regular
    Anyways, here's a different Mueller snag with judges:
    A federal judge has rejected special counsel Robert Mueller’s request to delay the first court hearing in a criminal case charging three Russian companies and 13 Russian citizens with using social media and other means to foment strife among Americans in advance of the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

    In a brief order Saturday evening, U.S. District Court Judge Dabney Friedrich offered no explanation for her decision to deny a request prosecutors made Friday to put off the scheduled Wednesday arraignment for Concord Management and Consulting, one of the three firms charged in the case.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-rule-president-amendment-russia/story?id=54962255
    Giuliani said to ABC News Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos in an exclusive interview on "This Week" Sunday, "How could I be confident" that president won't take the Fifth Amendment The former New York City mayor also commented on the possibility of Trump getting subpoenaed by the special counsel to testify. "We don't have to" comply with a subpoena, he said.

    I really want the interviewer to interrupt when Trump's water carriers say something like that and just bluntly ask if they think the President is above the Law.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Trump: "Only guilty people plead the fifth."
    Also Trump: "I plead the fifth."

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Trump: "Only guilty people plead the fifth."
    Also Trump: "I plead the fifth."

    It's just a variation on "the only moral abortion is my own."

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Please someone help me out here. Is Giuliani going rogue again this morning?

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/06/politics/rudy-giuliani-trump-fifth-amendment/index.html
    “When I'm facing a situation with the President ... in which every lawyer in America thinks he would be a fool to testify, I have a client who wants to testify."

    "I don't know when the President learned about [the Daniels payoff]," Giuliani said. "He could have learned about it after or not connected the whole thing at that time. The reality is those are not facts that worry me as a lawyer."

    Asked if Cohen has ever paid more women to keep them quiet, Giuliani said, "I have no knowledge of that, but I would think if it was necessary, yes."

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Schrödinger’s Payoff

    If it helps that he knew, then he knew

    If it hurts, he didn’t

  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    Schrödinger’s Payoff

    If it helps that he knew, then he knew

    If it hurts, he didn’t

    “Your honor, whatever part of this whole thing is the illegal parts, that’s what my client didn’t do. The defense rests.”

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    He's very carefully NOT going rogue. If you parse everything out, he didn't actually make any assertion of fact. He is literally just making noises.

  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    The reason to delay that would be that there are US citizens tied to this that they don’t want becoming public yet right?

  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    He is not worried, as a lawyer, about what his client knew and when he learned about it.

    That is an interesting position.

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    He is not worried, as a lawyer, about what his client knew and when he learned about it.

    That is an interesting position.

    It helps when you have a client that doesn't require those to be in any conventional temporary order - Trump knows a lot of things he's never learned, and knows even less of the things he has learned (probably multiple times).
    It's the prosecutor's problem if they assume there is any link between learning and knowing on Trump's part - and god help them if they have to prove that.

    Tastyfish on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    To what degree is anything that Rudy saying legally actionable?

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