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Creepy brother is creepy - how to evade?
Cambiata
Commander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
Commander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
I have a sibling (one of my brothers) who I've cut out of my life but without "announcing" it or anything - I just blocked him on Facebook and Steam, the only places he ever tried to communicate with me. All is well and good with this side if it, since I don't live anywhere near him so most days I forget he even exists. I've never been lectured to by other family members because most of them aren't even aware that I've done this.
However, I still do go to family reunions, and the last one was more than a trial. I barely recognized "creeper" - he was obviously either high or drunk, kept hugging female relatives for way longer than comfortable, and worst of all would not stop following me around no matter how I tried to evade him.
Now some history here, he was NOT like this before - the things that caused me to cut him off were not because he was grabby or clingy with me, but because he was utterly selfish and unable to recognize other human beings as real. Growing up, he would want to have these tedious arguments with me, where he'd follow me around the house rather than let me exit the conversation. Just as an example, he once spent 30 minutes berating me for putting my food in the center of the microwave, instead of around the edge of the turntable, which he insisted was better somehow. The whole time I just kept saying "I don't care, why are you bothering me with this, I DON'T CARE."
As an adult living far away, I originally kept a distant relationship with him, trying to bond with him over video games by gifting some of my favorites to him over steam. The inciting incident that got me to cut him off was that he requested over Facebook that I get him in contact with an ex-girlfriend who had blocked him on Facebook. He proposed it as if he knew it was a selfish request but was fine if I didn't do it. When I flatly refused, he immediately became upset with "I thought if anyone would my sister would. wth." I actually took the effort to explain to him why trying to do an end run around someone's block is bad, I didn't even bother with the "and also it's shitty to your wife to be trying to mac on your high school girlfriend." I was never able to communicate even the most obvious facts, and decided I was done with him for good. I actually saved screenshots of that conversation if anyone wants to see it, it might help give a better view of his personality, I dunno. I often feel like I have to "prove" that "no, really, he's a terrible person, honest, this isn't just sibling rivalry or some bullshit", probably in part because my parents didn't defend me a lot as I was growing up with this obviously unhealthy dynamic as a constant toxicity in my life.
So myriad things happened in the intervening years (including that hey, he was discovered cheating on his wife, what a shocker!), but back then he still looked and acted like a somewhat normal human being on the outside. When I saw him at the reunion he... did not. My main issue, and what I'm hoping for advice on is the following me around thing. I would engage other family members in deep conversation, and Creeper would insert himself and try to explain how the topic was related to him. Multiple times he asked, "Where's your hubby? When do I get to meet your hubby?" And after explaining to him several times that my husband did not come (I would NEVER subject him to this), on the fourth or fifth time I just exasperatedly asked, "I already told you, why do you keep asking?"
Writing all this out, I expect it comes off as "petty annoyance" and not "potential rapist" but I can't emphasize enough how wrong his affect was. Of course, I made sure I was never alone with him, but I guess my request for advice is: How do I scrape him off during family gatherings? Utterly ignoring him didn't work. Walking away/leaving the room didn't work. The only thing that worked was literally hiding (with other family members, of course), but uh, is there some script I can use to actually get him to fuck off, or am I stuck with Creeper during family gatherings? Should I just be confrontational and say, "wow, why are you being so creepy right now?" or "Please stay away from me!" I'm not good at confrontation, but I'm spooked enough by his new affect that I could probably muster that.
For some added history, here's a super old thread I made about him. I include that thread for history, but I will add that I'm aware now how dysfunctional our family is in general and that using violence was probably too much (though to be honest, when he wouldn't leave me alone this last time I would have felt relief at someone doing a choke hold on him to make him stop) I did follow the advice in that thread insofar as I stayed at a hotel room during this family reunion, I had access to my car and was able to simply drive away from locations when things got too creepy, etc. But I'd like to actually be able to have some time with those family members I care about instead of spending whole events running from room to room.
However, I still do go to family reunions, and the last one was more than a trial. I barely recognized "creeper" - he was obviously either high or drunk, kept hugging female relatives for way longer than comfortable, and worst of all would not stop following me around no matter how I tried to evade him.
Now some history here, he was NOT like this before - the things that caused me to cut him off were not because he was grabby or clingy with me, but because he was utterly selfish and unable to recognize other human beings as real. Growing up, he would want to have these tedious arguments with me, where he'd follow me around the house rather than let me exit the conversation. Just as an example, he once spent 30 minutes berating me for putting my food in the center of the microwave, instead of around the edge of the turntable, which he insisted was better somehow. The whole time I just kept saying "I don't care, why are you bothering me with this, I DON'T CARE."
As an adult living far away, I originally kept a distant relationship with him, trying to bond with him over video games by gifting some of my favorites to him over steam. The inciting incident that got me to cut him off was that he requested over Facebook that I get him in contact with an ex-girlfriend who had blocked him on Facebook. He proposed it as if he knew it was a selfish request but was fine if I didn't do it. When I flatly refused, he immediately became upset with "I thought if anyone would my sister would. wth." I actually took the effort to explain to him why trying to do an end run around someone's block is bad, I didn't even bother with the "and also it's shitty to your wife to be trying to mac on your high school girlfriend." I was never able to communicate even the most obvious facts, and decided I was done with him for good. I actually saved screenshots of that conversation if anyone wants to see it, it might help give a better view of his personality, I dunno. I often feel like I have to "prove" that "no, really, he's a terrible person, honest, this isn't just sibling rivalry or some bullshit", probably in part because my parents didn't defend me a lot as I was growing up with this obviously unhealthy dynamic as a constant toxicity in my life.
So myriad things happened in the intervening years (including that hey, he was discovered cheating on his wife, what a shocker!), but back then he still looked and acted like a somewhat normal human being on the outside. When I saw him at the reunion he... did not. My main issue, and what I'm hoping for advice on is the following me around thing. I would engage other family members in deep conversation, and Creeper would insert himself and try to explain how the topic was related to him. Multiple times he asked, "Where's your hubby? When do I get to meet your hubby?" And after explaining to him several times that my husband did not come (I would NEVER subject him to this), on the fourth or fifth time I just exasperatedly asked, "I already told you, why do you keep asking?"
Writing all this out, I expect it comes off as "petty annoyance" and not "potential rapist" but I can't emphasize enough how wrong his affect was. Of course, I made sure I was never alone with him, but I guess my request for advice is: How do I scrape him off during family gatherings? Utterly ignoring him didn't work. Walking away/leaving the room didn't work. The only thing that worked was literally hiding (with other family members, of course), but uh, is there some script I can use to actually get him to fuck off, or am I stuck with Creeper during family gatherings? Should I just be confrontational and say, "wow, why are you being so creepy right now?" or "Please stay away from me!" I'm not good at confrontation, but I'm spooked enough by his new affect that I could probably muster that.
For some added history, here's a super old thread I made about him. I include that thread for history, but I will add that I'm aware now how dysfunctional our family is in general and that using violence was probably too much (though to be honest, when he wouldn't leave me alone this last time I would have felt relief at someone doing a choke hold on him to make him stop) I did follow the advice in that thread insofar as I stayed at a hotel room during this family reunion, I had access to my car and was able to simply drive away from locations when things got too creepy, etc. But I'd like to actually be able to have some time with those family members I care about instead of spending whole events running from room to room.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
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I actually went to the last reunion with a sympathetic sister, but didn't ask her to run interference. That could work, but even to people who only has a minor relationship with he's rude and awful to be around, I'm not sure I'd want to subject her to that but I'll bring it up next time and see what she says.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
He may just not know/care you don't want him around. Or think you're not serious. Taking steps to insulate yourself and mark boundaries may help. Or maybe not. -looks at giant pile of own family issues-
Because, screaming at him won't solve the issue for more than a minute, he'll be right back at it, after the conversation has moved on. And screaming definitely won't help if the guy is drunk or high.
The other option is to just move to different rooms depending on where he is, but that sucks and is at best inconvenient and at worst he'll just be following you around.
So i'm afraid its ultimately a trade-off for the value you get from seeing and interacting with the rest of your family together versus the unpleasantness of interacting with this brother, but there isn't something that will stop lifelong silly ducks to stop being silly ducks, especially if their lives are a mess, besides not being around them.
it's clear enough that he's in a particularly bad way right now, and it seems you've divorced yourself of any responsibility for helping him through that. which is fine: as i say, we all have different ideas about the role of family, and through what extremes that might extend. it does seem you're very quick to dehumanise him, though - not least with the perjorarive labelling. i don't think that's helpful. i think it could even be the key to how the internal relationship dynamic you've constructed between yourself and your brother is very different to the one that actually manifests when you're around him.
you need to make explicit the terms of your relationship, is what i'm getting to. if that's "we don't have one," fine - but you need to be willing to utter it, explain it, and accept the consequences. maybe it's softer: "i'm not really comfortable with your behaviour at the moment, so forgive me if it seems i'm avoiding you."
maybe it's biting the bullet and just having one of those "deeper conversations" with him. about video games, which you've connected over in the past. about his mental health. it goes two ways: it's either not the kind of attention he wants, and he'll run scared. or it is... and maybe you could help him through some shit?
I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but conversations like this are literally impossible with him. He does not "look up to me" - he expects me to look up to him, and feels, I think, lost that I no longer feel that way towards him. He's waiting for me to validate what a great and cool and awesome brother he is. When I used to do that (as a young teen), he treated me like shit. He accused me of copying him, of being incapable of feeling love, he saw me hugging my mother once and said "you need to get a boyfriend", I cooked a meal for him once and he said, "I feel sorry for your future husband."
Here's the conversation that caused me to cut him off, it if helps. Neither of us are teenagers in this conversation. This took place about three years ago, when I was in my late 30s and he was nearly 40:
So to recap:
1) He asks me to do an end run around an ex-girlfriend's block
2) He obviously did something to offend that ex-girlfriend for which he knows he needs to apologize (she's married too, so I presume it was flirting or something else equally inappropriate)
3) He posits the request like a favor he knows he's asking, but when I refuse gets angry
4) He thinks my explanation is me "being mean to him"
5) He messages me multiple times to keep the argument going after it's obvious that conversation is over. None of his additional messages are apologies for his behaviors, but rather trying to wheedle an apology out of me.
6) He keeps those messages going over 12 hours later.
7) He treats my unsolicited gifts to him as if that's proof that I owe him something.
So yeah, talking to him doesn't work. The reason talking about games "worked" after a fashion is precisely because those conversations had no depth. "I played a female Shepard who romanced Liara!" is not a very in-depth conversation, but it's an easy one.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
There's no discussion possible with a person who can never be wrong.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Seems like you can't even just confront him bluntly with "You make me very uncomfortable, and here's why" because he'd just send you a thousand messages or follow you around everywhere telling you why you're wrong. Maybe a family member or friend could act as an in-between, but that would probably really suck for that person.
So you have the choice of
I read your previous thread and he sounds like quite the fuckwit. Being family doesn't give him carte blanche to be a shit head
It doesn't seem like you're honestly all that worried about rejecting him and him getting angry and doing something or continuing to follow you; there are ways around that stuff if you have support. It reads to me like you know damn well you won't have that support with your family, that you're worried you'll lay down the law and he'll come out with some "my own sister, why are you being so mean to me, you never used to be this way" bullshit and you'll find everyone has taken his side. And then instead of a vague feeling that this is something you need to do on your own, you'll actually be on your own, because that's what people who manipulate emotions that way do best. I fully own that that may be a huge projection on my part.
There is a third option between "say nothing and let him keep being a jackass" and "let him wreck all your relationships with your family because you stood up to him." Honnnnnnnnestlyyyyyy I know you say you don't want to do this because you don't want to subject anybody blah blah blah, but your partner is there for you. If you really want to maintain the relationships with your family that you have while still getting your brother to Go Away, bring your partner. Introduce him to your brother the second he appears. Don't find your brother for the introduction, let him find you. Your brother can't "own" your affection anymore because this other guy "owns" it. He knows you have a partner, but meeting him might help make it real. Keep your partner with you at all times. I'm sure it will make you feel un-feminist or something, but frankly I doubt anyone else will notice and it's a tried-and-true way of scraping off unwanted male attention. For the "respectable" people present, it should play well into their sense of propriety if you never start anything and it's your brother being weird, because you're always by your partner's side.
It super sucks. It sucks to feel like the only way to keep your family relationships is to let them know that you're "spoken for," even though you don't go out of your way to say it. But you get to keep going, you get to wordlessly put your brother off to at least a degree, and I am positive that your partner would do this for you if you need it, especially since all he needs to do is Be Present.
I agree 200%. I suffer from a bit of White Knight syndrome but if my wife told me this I'd be there for her no matter what. If she let me I'd even tell him he crosses boundaries and makes her feel uncomfortable.
Q: Can't other siblings/family members who know he's a shit be brought in to help?
Well. Creepy may be the most nuclear, but he's by no means the only toxic member of the family. It's taken me many years to realize how toxic most of them are. But I still want to have some contact with most of them. And their children are really the bright spot of those family reunions, I'll tolerate the adults for the sake of the very excellent children. Sympathetic sis is probably the most understanding because in our dysfunctional family she served as the black sheep/scape goat. Why did she get that role? Because back in the 60s she told my mother to stand up to my father's abuse, which my mother did eventually leading to a better relationship. I've thanked her for that because without our father would have probably been much worse to live with than he was (and he was pretty bad even after he mellowed out). But of course my parents never forgave her.
Still, most of the female members of the family are perfectly aware that Creepy is the worst. My mom would be the exception here, because she just feels sorry for him and hopes yet to do whatever motherly thing will fix him. Example of my life growing up:
Creepy: ~shitty insult directed at me~
Me: ~shitty insult reply back~
Mom: Cambiata, stop picking on your brother
Telling my mom I can't be in the same location with Creepy would only make her insistent that I "forgive" or whatever. I did actually talk to her a little about his behavior during that last family reunion. I told her he's acting really weird, is he on drugs, and she admitted he previously had a drug problem but they got him off it (yeah, right) but also seemed to admit that he was probably on drugs during that party. I told her about him creepily following me around. All she said was that I should thank my father for asking me to dance since Creepy had just been sidling up to me again when my father asked me. There was no further action to shield me, I doubt my mother believes Creepy is capable of anything worse than being an annoyance.
Long after the party, I was having a text conversation with another brother, we'll call him GoodOlBoy, with whom I have a surprisingly good relationship. We rarely text about anything important since I have few family members in whom I can really confide anything. To preface this conversation, GoodOlBoy's toxcities are: 1) drug addict 2) threatened to rape his step-daughter and did actually assault her, though he insists he was asleep and as step daughter was sleeping in the bed with both parents at the time that he thought she was his wife (GoodOlBoy himself was sexually abused as a child by a neighbor). Step daughter reported both incidents to adults so hopefully those are the only ones he did. She no longer lives at home, and none of his blood children reported anything similar. 3) uses homophobic slurs unironically and with the full amount of hatred intended by the terms.
Anyway, our conversation started with him making some sort of joke about Matt Damon that I didn't understand. So I googled and found out people had been lambasting Damon because of the Weinstein scandal. I told GoodOlBoy I didn't find jokes about the topic funny, and in a rare moment of candor I attempted to explain the prevalence of sexual assault and harassment basically everywhere (no, I didn't bring up his own behaviors here. I honestly didn't even think of them at the time; but it wouldn't have helped - if I'm trying to change hearts and minds, leading with "you are a terrible person" is not the way of it. Plus as I hopefully made clear, in our family we Do Not Talk About Such Things openly). Anyway he didn't believe most of what I was telling him, so I brought in Creepy's behavior during that reunion. Even there he had to be convinced that I was accurate in my assessment of Creepy. Like that poster earlier, GoodOlBoy was sure Creepy just needed me to talk to him because "you used to be close." I assured GoodOlBoy that we were NEVER close, and that "it shouldn't have to be MY job to be his rape babysitter." Like somebody has to do it but I'm a BAD CHOICE for that job. I'd like to think this got through because GoodOlBoy did say he would pay closer attention to Creepy from now on and that he admits he already knew that Creepy is creepy. (yeah, after arguing with me forever about how sexual harassment never happens.)
I could go on about other family members but hopefully you get the picture. Why, then, do I still want to attend reunions? As I said, it's the younger generation. They have the benefit of not growing up with my incredibly dysfunctional parents, and instead only grew up with my less dysfunctional siblings. Recently one of them came out to me as a trans girl. I told her how proud I am that she was brave enough to know herself and do what's right for her, even with the mother (my sister) that she has . She told me it was because she had her younger sister to lean on and confide in, and without her who knows where she'd be. So yeah, that's again just one story of how great my nieces and nephews are, but they are almost to a person that brave and smart.
And while some of my nieces and nephews are adults, I'm not going to use them as a shield, either. Him being their uncle makes far too much of a power imbalance.
Q: Bring your husband to events and stick to him like glue?
There's actually a reason I don't bring my husband to these events. These events are in the range of 100-150 people (and yes, that's all just my parents, siblings, their spouses and their children and grandchildren, my cousins and uncles don't attend). Medically speaking, that's not really a situation he can do.
Even without the medical reasons though, I'm not sure I could agree to bringing anyone I love into that situation who isn't already tied by blood (like Sympathetic Sis). It's a fucking cesspool.
I'm thinking more and more that the way to fix this is via me making a scene and being "the baby" (my role in the family). Me actually shouting "get away from me!" or acting in other ways that will likely get me labeled as bratty. I have that label anyway, might as well make use of it for my benefit.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Nobody gets through this kind of childhood without having some pathologies of their own, so undoubtedly you have some cognitive biases coloring your view of the situation that are impossible for us to account for since you’re the narrator. You read as a bit very focused on boundaries, for instance, and I don’t know where that comes from but you might interrogate that further in connection with your anxiety. That kind of thing affects how you interpret the actions of others and how you’re interpreted. And we can’t help explain where years of family history are coloring your perception of the present, which is what you’d need in order to communicate effectively with a dysfunctional family.
You need someone who has formed an independent view of these people to give you their input. Assuming everything you say is 100% accurate though, your relatives are either irrational and unpredictable or motivated purely by malice. There’s no way to change people at 40. From the outside looking in, your best bet is to tell ppl why you’re bowing out of reunions, see if they change on your own, and try to meet up with the kids in other contexts.
What level of historical family detail would you like for me to provide so that I can get usable advice?
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Sporadic contact at most.
I'll be honest, I almost didn't go to that one. I got talked into it as it'll probably be the last big one before my parents die? That's how it was pitched to me anyway, parents are in their 80s.
Part of the problem is that even if I just visit my parents alone, the chances of Creepy being there are high, because he lives in the same town and he's a mooch. Even though his wife ALREADY pays for everything, my parents have a bigger house and probably better internet and cable. I could try to make it explicit to my parents that Creepy is not to be there when I am, but I think that would actually increase the chances that they'd invite him over, to try to make us reconcile or something like that.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I have quite the shitty family as well (though not the same level of fuckery as yours) and yeah this is a common tactic. I understand where they're coming from with "this could be the last reunion" but you can't let them use that excuse in perpetuity. Because they will keep using it. You've been to one and it was clearly enough.
Honest question, if you had a go at your fuckwit brother what do you think the family would do. Do you think they'll go all victim blamely at you or do you think they'll acknowledge the problem.
Because if it's the former, I'm going to say you need to cut almost all contact. The only time you should visit is to see your parents because (unless they're also shitty people) they're worth running the risk of seeing your brother. You mentioned a sister you get on with (who isn't like the others)? I don't see an issue with staying in contact and seeing her. But it sounds like 90% of your family ties need to be dropped.
Mmmmmmostly the ties are dropped, except those reunions. And yes I see the good sister frequently, we live near each other (and in a different county from my parents and a couple of the worst offender siblings). But you make a good point, maybe that reunion should be my swan song to the rest of them. I'm pretty sure that if I openly and loudly told Creepy to get away from me at a family event it would be me that was treated as the goon and not him.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"