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The Fall of [Channel Awesome]

Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
edited April 2018 in Debate and/or Discourse
Over the last few weeks a drama has been unfolding at Channel Awesome. For those who don't know what that is, it's a review website/company based around Doug Walker AKA That Guy With The Glasses AKA Nostalgia Critic. You've probably heard about their contributors over the years, who have gone on to make a name for themselves: Lindsay Ellis, Folding Ideas, Chris Struckmann, Atop The Forth Wall, Linkara etc. What the audiences didn't know was that all through that time it's been a train wreck behind the scenes. Abuse, isolation (in regards to one contributor), sexual harassment, lack of communication, poor management and so on. Now, Keep in mind how I've been explaining this has been an understatement.

Here is an overview about the details which go into depth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1180&v=FvedKSaHCBQ

and here are the complaints from the staff themselves which caused this to blow into the open.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WZFkR__B3Mk9EYQglvislMUx9HWvWhOaBP820UBa4dA/preview#heading=h.smmxroimnosh

#ChangetheChannel is their topic name for twitter.

It's sad how a company which so many people held in high regard has imploded on itself, because the people running it were unprofessional douchebags.

edit: Another thing that surprised me was that the company was a corporation swimming in money. I always assumed they were a small amateur production, though that seems to be how they were operated with their contributors.





Dan Olsen is a movie critic and former CA contributor

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    You know, I could have sworn I saw some of these allegations (the behavioural ones, not the financial ones) ages ago, but they were floating around the chans so it wasn't something I dwelled on.

    It feels weird that such a hodgepodge operation managed to grab quite a few people who went on to be pretty great content creators in their own right. And the Amazing Atheist.

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  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Allison (Obscurus Lupa) has, I believe, been the most vocal critic over the years. She never hid her dislike of the Chicago crew. Everybody else, mostly, either didn't want to burn bridges or didn't want to reopen old wounds.

    Last week or so, Allison got another fan wondering what exactly happened over at CA and Allison talked about Michaud and the mismanagement, more or less as usual. Except this time other former producers, for whatever reason, jumped in as well.

    And then the dam burst.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Watching the first video.

    Holy fucking shit.

    I was kinda, sorta hoping that Doug and Rob were better than this.

    I can't believe that anymore. There's no way. Holy fuck. And I was just starting to get back into Doug's works, and really enjoying Tamara's stuff.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Is this why Lindsay Ellis has moved her "Nostalgia Chick" stuff to a separate channel?

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  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    So if I'm understanding this correctly, the Walkers foolishly gave the rights to their brand to a massive asshole, so if they cross the guy they lose everything, but if they don't jump ship they still lose, with Doug Walker as the face of the company taking the heat.

    I'm also wondering why a lot of the early videos I've seen about this were from guys with channel names like "Social Injustice Warrior".

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  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this why Lindsay Ellis has moved her "Nostalgia Chick" stuff to a separate channel?

    Yes. Basically. As far as I know, she was never particularly happy about being 'The Nostalgia Critic Except Female', and had major issues with the production of the anniversary movies.

    And then Dan Olson did a video about 8chan, which attracted the GG hate brigade. Michaud got really damn angry at Lindsay about the whole thing because she was the one who helped bring Dan on board. Michaud did not try to actually, like, defend anyone working for his company against the GG hate brigade.

    That was the straw that broke the camel's back. Lindsay, Dan and Kyle left Channel Awesome shortly thereafter and founded Chez Apocalypse.

    EDIT: It's all in the Google Doc, really. All this, and so much more.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I somehow thought that this already happened several years ago.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    And then Dan Olson did a video about 8chan, which attracted the GG hate brigade. Michaud got really damn angry at Lindsay about the whole thing because she was the one who helped bring Dan on board. Michaud did not try to actually, like, defend anyone working for his company against the GG hate brigade.

    Huh, I guess that explains why people who normally don't care about sexual harassment or other issues are jumping on this as well. They already had a beef with Channel Awesome.

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  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Is this why Lindsay Ellis has moved her "Nostalgia Chick" stuff to a separate channel?

    So, her section of the complaint lists some pretty awful stuff that CA did, but she lists basically this sequence of events as why she left
    1. She vouched for bringing Dan Olsen (Foldable Human) onto Channel Awesome as a content creator
    2. Dan creates a bunch of content for CA.
    3. Dan Olsen is also a journalist. One of his investigative journalism articles was on how 8chan's site and community is complicit in distributing child porn
    4. Dan is then targeted by 8chan members and gamergaters because of this article. They created a smear campaign to claim that because Dan did an article outing child pornographers that he himself was a pedophile.
    5. Mike Michaud (The loud part owner of CA who doesn't seem to do anything but make everything worse) then verbally berates Lindsey on the phone while she's driving home for the holidays.
    6. CA refused to stand up for Dan Olsen or see the blatant harassment for what it was, and this was a continuation of a series of harassment campaigns against CA content creators (particularly women). CA refused to stand by any of them and even attacked them for "inviting controversy"
    7. Lindsey and Kyle Kallgren (Brows Held High) left a few days later along with Dan.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Reading the actual google doc... Jesus. they were worse than slave labor at times, and Doug comes across as incompetent for someone who was one profiled in large entrepreneur magazines.

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  • Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Wow, read the part about Holly Brown. Their severance terms basically cost her years of her life.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    I know it was a younger time in content streaming.. but man. I bet all these people regret not at least consulting a lawyer, because holy shit would this all be downright illegal. But.. exposure... Exposure was powerful.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    I know it was a younger time in content streaming.. but man. I bet all these people regret not at least consulting a lawyer, because holy shit would this all be downright illegal. But.. exposure... Exposure was powerful.

    The problem is that 1) a lot of these people weren't professionals and 2) we live in a culture that vilifies lawyers, especially online.

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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    I know it was a younger time in content streaming.. but man. I bet all these people regret not at least consulting a lawyer, because holy shit would this all be downright illegal. But.. exposure... Exposure was powerful.

    The problem is that 1) a lot of these people weren't professionals and 2) we live in a culture that vilifies lawyers, especially online.

    Most of these guys just started out doing random crap on the Internet, it's not like they were planning to make a career out of it. Same reason for why Penny Arcade almost lost their book rights, stick a contract under the nose of someone who's just been doing something creative for fun and odds are he wont read it

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    I know it was a younger time in content streaming.. but man. I bet all these people regret not at least consulting a lawyer, because holy shit would this all be downright illegal. But.. exposure... Exposure was powerful.

    The problem is that 1) a lot of these people weren't professionals and 2) we live in a culture that vilifies lawyers, especially online.

    Most of these guys just started out doing random crap on the Internet, it's not like they were planning to make a career out of it. Same reason for why Penny Arcade almost lost their book rights, stick a contract under the nose of someone who's just been doing something creative for fun and odds are he wont read it

    I was thinking of the parallels on that. Like, PA got very lucky with who they found. Imagine if they went down this path...

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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Sadgasm wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    I know it was a younger time in content streaming.. but man. I bet all these people regret not at least consulting a lawyer, because holy shit would this all be downright illegal. But.. exposure... Exposure was powerful.

    The problem is that 1) a lot of these people weren't professionals and 2) we live in a culture that vilifies lawyers, especially online.

    Most of these guys just started out doing random crap on the Internet, it's not like they were planning to make a career out of it. Same reason for why Penny Arcade almost lost their book rights, stick a contract under the nose of someone who's just been doing something creative for fun and odds are he wont read it

    I was thinking of the parallels on that. Like, PA got very lucky with who they found. Imagine if they went down this path...

    It's pretty insane how many hurdles PA has cleared to get where it is. It's not like, say, PvP, where there was just one guy doing it and he set out specifically to turn the series into a financial success and move into print at first chance.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Lindsay Ellis posted a thread to Twitter this afternoon, basically expanding on her experiences. And to be quite honest, they pretty much confirmed what I thought about her relationship with the rest of the crew. I'll transcribe it here.



    Someone yesterday asked me on Twitter if there were any "good times" with Channel Awesome, since there's a general thread of lamenting what was lost with many other creators, & not with me. So I'm I'll share my perspective, & then I'm done talking about CA, bc I want to move ON.

    So this should be a surprise to no one, but I was always uncomfortable with my position there. I was the only creator there whose sole raison d'etre was to exist as a distaff counterpart to someone else - I was hired to fulfill an idea someone else came up with.

    And given my (relative) youth and the condition of the economy at the time, I really truly never thought when I entered it that it would last as long as it did.

    The context here is that it was 2008 - I had just gotten laid off from my job. The economy was imploding. I had just left NYC because I could no longer afford to live there and had moved back in with my parents. It was a desperate time to be a recent college grad.

    So with no other prospects, I submitted to the "Nostalgia Chick" contest in September of 2008, and won. I was promised money. In fairness to Michaud, he did eventually deliver on this for me (others, like @MarzGurl, never saw any compensation for their early content).

    Thing is, around this time, I made another huge mistake (haha joke [haha.. sort of a joke]) when I got accepted to USC. I say "huge mistake" because being young and dumb, I didn't realize that 7% interest rate on student loans was... a lot.

    And at MFA at the world's top film school (since usurped but it was rated #1 at the time!) takes super huge priority over internet videos, even if they paid okay. So there are no words for how hard I phoned it in back then. I just did not have the energy or brainspace to care.

    So another reason I am very #cringe about everything I produced back then is because I was doing the BAREST possible minimum, and also being really unreliable scheduling-wise. TGWTG almost let me go several times - I can't fault them for that.

    In short, I was always uncomfortable aping Doug's style and being "the girl", and I didn't want to be there, but I needed the money. I didn't start learning to be okay with it until I started doing essay-style videos about not-nostalgia ("Smurfette Principle", the Ke$ha video).

    Of course there was some resistance to this transition, but eventually they stopped caring about me staying in my lane.

    Now, to the original question: were their good times? TBH, when not with my own crew, they were few and far between.

    The first time I felt genuinely disrespected was Kickassia (I outlined why in the Google doc) - that was where I first realized that they were not interested in collaboration, even if it was with someone who knew more than they did about certain skills (in this case, film sets)

    All of the crossover sets were maddening to me (see again the anti-intellectual streak that still suffuses the company). The thought was that this is just fun amateur hour! But you can't do that, especially on for-profit productions.

    You can't go without production insurance or stunt people (if they are needed), or people will get hurt (they did.) You need producers to secure permits and hours (they didn't). You need to pay your crew (they didn't).

    I met people on those shoots I'm still good friends with, and I am grateful for that. But the shoots themselves? I was always miserable. And as evidenced by the wave of people speaking out, the Walkers did not consider us friends. There was always a divide there.

    The best time I had was in the 2011-2012 era when my NYC crew was fairly prolific and Chez Apocalypse was up and running - and, aside from a few people I met through CA, that had nothing to do with CA. It was all downhill after that.

    And I know there was some charm to the "amateur" aesthetic of the anniversary films, and that's what they wanted, I guess. But let me state that I do not now, nor did I ever, fuck with that. I was embarrassed then to be a part of them, and I still am. ESPECIALLY To Boldly Flee.

    Oh, and I saw not one red penny from the Moulin Rouge review (but Doug and Brent made $$). Doug even crashed at my apartment for that, but I saw nothing for it. Doug wrote it, and I still have people assigning his opinions to me (boy do I not share them).

    "So why did you do it?" Well, I needed to maintain my place on the site because I still depended on ad revenue back then. Everyone was going along with it, and few shared my reservations. Bad enough being the curmudgeon of the group-you don't want to be OUT of the group, do you?

    So tl;dr "were there good times you were wistful for?" For the most part, no. I was relieved to be gone from them, and I wish I'd done it sooner. But change is hard and scary, even for a wild libertine such as myself.

    Now I promise to never, ever talk about Channel Awesome again.

    I'm so glad Lindsay found her own voice.

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  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    Honestly, Lindsay is one of the best people to come out of TGWTG, but I don't feel that I truly enjoyed her stuff until she transitioned to the essay style she uses now. Her stuff, even if I don't personally care about the topic, is still very interesting and I learn something new. Her video about GotG2 and The Full Plate are still amazing. I just wish she would do more Loose Cannons.

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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    The only CA creator I ever actually followed is the Critic, the others are fine but never really drew me in, and the Critic has lost a lot of steam since The Demo Reel failed. I get that he's probably frustrated that the project he actually wanted to do flopped, but I gave it a chance and it just wasnt anything I cared to see more of.

  • Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Brainiac 8 wrote: »
    Honestly, Lindsay is one of the best people to come out of TGWTG, but I don't feel that I truly enjoyed her stuff until she transitioned to the essay style she uses now. Her stuff, even if I don't personally care about the topic, is still very interesting and I learn something new. Her video about GotG2 and The Full Plate are still amazing. I just wish she would do more Loose Cannons.

    Yup. Her and Extra History are basically the only Youtubers i follow with any consistency (though not actually follow because I need more push notifications like i need a hole in the head).

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Looking from the outside (never followed TGWTG or the like), what strikes me is how much Lindsey hated having to degrade herself to a bunch of asshole manchildren just to pay her student debt.

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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Looking from the outside (never followed TGWTG or the like), what strikes me is how much Lindsey hated having to degrade herself to a bunch of asshole manchildren just to pay her student debt.

    Considering that she was basically hired to be a Smurfette, I can see why she'd be pissed about it.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Think I mostly watched the minnesotan and the guy who looks miserable. Linkara and Phelan.
    And then like the music-guy with Total Distortion, the Wario-hat, and Sean Fausz?

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Nostalgia Chick originally got me into Channel Awesome, I think I saw a video of hers in [chat] and got hooked, but I only stayed with her channel. Later on I became fans of Chris Stuckmann and Folding Ideas and hasn't until much later that I found out they were both linked to CA. Relieved Stuckmann left, they probably needed him more than he needed them at this point.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Think I mostly watched the minnesotan and the guy who looks miserable. Linkara and Phelan.
    And then like the music-guy with Total Distortion, the Wario-hat, and Sean Fausz?

    There were a few musician guys. Todd in the Shadows, Rap Critic, the one who reviewed musicals whose name escapes me right now.. Paw, I think? I enjoy all their work, except Paw whom I haven't seen in a while.

    As for the Wario-hat... that was JewWario. He took his life a few years back. I hate to think anything with this contributed to that.

    Forgot where I found this, but there is a google document about former Channel Awesome producers and where they are now. It's a start, I guess.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yxt7CCtzMsOCEZZTUnv7vZuA80NfUc0T-SC1zR-SGhI/edit#gid=0

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  • milskimilski Their Will comes, at last, to Earth, to the Neath, as a storm crosses the sea. Registered User regular
    Todd in the Shadows was and is good. I eventually got kinda tired of the Rap Critic's output, though; I could pretty much call his opinion on songs from a halfhearted glance at the lyrics without even listening to the beats.

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  • 21stCentury21stCentury Bismuth OS Fully Operational 2019-07-12 - KeystoneRegistered User regular
    The only CA contributor I really followed was... Spoony.

    yyyyyeah.

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    The only CA contributor I really followed was... Spoony.

    yyyyyeah.

    I liked Spoony. From what I understand his fanbase was unusually toxic and would leave hateful comments targeted at him whenever he did a video with his girlfriend, brother, or dog, so I can understand why he quit.

    Apparently he did something shitty too at some point, but from what I understand the person he wronged forgave him.

    I still follow Lindsey Ellis, Brad Jones, Brandon Tenold, and Bennet White.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Just saw that Todd in the Shadows left Channel Awesome on March 22nd. So before the document, but after things were breaking.

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  • SixshotStrikerSixshotStriker Registered User regular
    Well, this is...not surprising when I think about it. I used to go to the CA forums. I don't know if it was always a toxic mess, but that's definitely how it felt when I stopped going. Combined with the lack of effective moderation, it was a nightmare.

    I remember when they tried to stop GIF bombing (certain users were abusing the function). When they made it a rule that you couldn't do that, it got a lot of flack. Then there were the people who got banned only to log back in a minute later, so bannings were basically toothless. Users were pretty much allowed to use almost whatever insults they wanted. For at least 2 years, there was only one moderator for the forum. Certain users made threads where the subject was "I hate inset username here." All of this was allowed to go on for months if not years.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Allison Pregler, AKA Obscurus Lupa, has posted a video going over the document, the twitter movement, and the response to the last few weeks. Some of it is repeating the document, but hearing it is pretty danged heavy.



    Side note: Holy cow has her overall quality and professionalism improved. That's kind of a given, having been many years, but still she had fallen off my radar when I stopped following TGWTG. I am excited to go back and watch her recent work.

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  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Aww, JewWario was so cool. He was like a Noir-character.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    The only CA contributor I really followed was... Spoony.

    yyyyyeah.

    I liked Spoony. From what I understand his fanbase was unusually toxic and would leave hateful comments targeted at him whenever he did a video with his girlfriend, brother, or dog, so I can understand why he quit.

    Apparently he did something shitty too at some point, but from what I understand the person he wronged forgave him.

    IIRC it was a tweet to a female colleague that looked really bad but was taken out of context, if still kinda iffy. However he reacted terribly to the backlash and publicly at least it resulted in a mutual agreement to leave CA. Then he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and improved a bit, but then he just kinda faded. Kind of a shame.

    I still follow Lindsay, Todd and Kyle Kallgren. They do good stuff. I should watch Cinemadonna again.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Oh, yeah, I remember Spoony. He kind of went really angry at everything at some point.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Undiagnosed Bipolar would do that to you. Followed by a shit ton of other medical issues, including an injury gotten during a cross-over that limited his mobility.

    Add a really toxic fanbase that seems to hate every member of his family apart from Spoony himself and Spoony himself being a bit of an asshole...

    Honestly I am surprised he lasted as long as he did.

    For me the Straw was Linkara. When the guy that everybody thinks is a good guy, who without fail puts out content, decide that he has had enough of your bullshit, its time to erase your link from my bookmarks.

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  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Down the Rabbit Hole has a video on Spoony. It’s worth watching if you’re an old fan and f his work.


    It sucks that channel awesome is run by assholes. I used to watch their stuff all the time.

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  • 21stCentury21stCentury Bismuth OS Fully Operational 2019-07-12 - KeystoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2018
    Down the Rabbit Hole has a video on Spoony. It’s worth watching if you’re an old fan and f his work.


    It sucks that channel awesome is run by assholes. I used to watch their stuff all the time.

    Yeah, i like Down the Rabbit Hole and that episode really made me both nostalgic and upset.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    I learned about Down the Rabbit Hole because that dude did a 5 hour live stream reading the whole document... Oof.

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  • SadgasmSadgasm Deluded doodler A cold placeRegistered User regular
    Wasnt the Amazing Atheist part of the site for a while? Hoh boy was that a mistake, that guy is like a parody of Internet assholes

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    This is like when a band you used to like breaks up and you find out that they all hated and screwed each other over all the time anyway.

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