Nids are doing really well right now because they have a lot of tools to make first turn charges and even survive a turn of shooting beforehand. Lots of dangerous big targets out there.
Poking around in list builders and dang a minimum Battalion of AdMech is 199 points. (2 Enginseers, 3 units of 5 Rangers). For 5CP. Backline objective holders. Deep Strike blocking (less of an issue after the beta changes but still).
Gah it's almost silly to go pure knight in light of that.
Looking to see what the Knight Codex changes point wise (if anything) but adding a decked out Errant and Crusader and a unit of 3 Armigers takes that list to like 3 points shy of 2k, and nets you a Super Heavy Detachment for a total of 11 CP. (The Armigers could also be split into 1 man units, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there are going to be some strategems that are going to make you want to run a full unit.)
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
Hive guard are strong shooting against big targets. Shooting out of LoS is big
The Swarmlord has a power that lets a unit move and advance in the shooting phase. So some big crazy unit double moves and charges and etc., the threat range is something nuts like 40 inches.
I know I have to fill in the larger stuff with my tyranid army since I have a lot of termagants. I want to get a Tervigon or two but I know it shares the kit with the tyrannofex a few Zoanthropes since that group of that someone is playing with seems like fun but I really cannot see myself getting 7
And other things
Got in what was supposed to be the final match in a campaign with a friend of mine yesterday. Went to a GW store in Burnaby BC to play (it was awesome, cool tables and terrain).
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
The Swarmlord has a power that lets a unit move and advance in the shooting phase. So some big crazy unit double moves and charges and etc., the threat range is something nuts like 40 inches.
You don't strictly need the Swarmlord for this, if you run Genestealers in a Kraken detachment there is a handy dandy strategem which lets you double their advance move (and Kraken advance with 3D6 pick the highest) for a potential 20" move, after which they can still charge. Though there's nothing stopping you from using both the Swarmlord and the strategem in conjunction to really get them zipping.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
No, he wasn't really deep striking... Gray knights have a Gate of Infinity power... basically if it goes off you can teleport a unit within X of the caster. He managed that two turns in a row and I had not ability to stop him. If the roll at the end of turn 5 had been 1-3 the game would have ended 6-10. Turn 6 he gated again and got a unit inside a land raider into my back zone for another 2pts each to make it 10-10.
The stars just aligned so that he got 4 units back on the board turn 5, one of those had the Gate power, and he managed to roll successfully on two gates, two turns in a row and the match didn't end at turn 5 when it could have. If any of those had not happened I would have won.
StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Another nights at the game table bat rep. They are doing a winner continues till losing thing. The Necron player won the last two. Necrons at 50 power level seem kind of busted.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
I love Typhus on foot with pox's... +1 str/toughness and another +1 from a psychic power makes them super juicy.
I really like where the Death Guard are at mechanically right now.
Solidly middle tier, they are strong without being OP.
Most the battles I have had with them have felt close and like tactics and good positioning are whats swinging things.
I ran a game against death guard earlier today with my psychic nonsense Nids list. Psychic bombardment, Mawloc popping up, maleceptor psychic nova, and a bunch of smites did a total of around 40 mortal wounds at once to a bunch of plague marines, characters and daemons.
The Swarmlord has a power that lets a unit move and advance in the shooting phase. So some big crazy unit double moves and charges and etc., the threat range is something nuts like 40 inches.
You don't strictly need the Swarmlord for this, if you run Genestealers in a Kraken detachment there is a handy dandy strategem which lets you double their advance move (and Kraken advance with 3D6 pick the highest) for a potential 20" move, after which they can still charge. Though there's nothing stopping you from using both the Swarmlord and the strategem in conjunction to really get them zipping.
It's stuff like this that continues drive me up the wall with regards to the deep strike nerf beta rule.
The units that actually have some kind of deep strike (and pay points for it) are screwed over but everything else has a dozen different ways to get into melee turn one anyway.
There are a ton of armies that through psychic powers, general speed, or special abilities can hit your front line turn 1.
But they start on the board which means if you go first you get to shoot them and push out your chaff bubble. And they also just hit your chaff anyway which if you set up right can die letting your guns again get a free set of shots into the chargers with the important stuff.
You also usually give up something for the speed. Either shooting or toughness or cp or all of the above.
The deepstrike nerf was still important. It was less about being charged first turn more about stuff like chaos plasma termis or inceptors or psions dropping and deleting things with rapid fire before you could fight back.
I keep looking at long-range first turn charges as an option. Luckily I have two factions that can do it pretty well, but figuring out which one I want to kit for it is the tough part.
Red Grief wyches/reavers are great for tying down lines/guns. While both are cheap, both suffer from being pretty terrible damage if taken in efficient MSU units, ranging up to mediocre damage if decked out.
On the other side of the spectrum, I can put fusion clowns in clown cars to hit backline guns. The advantage there is that they can not only tie-up, but stand a good chance to actually destroy their targets (plus they're much harder to remove too). But getting that together is not cheap.
Both clowns and reavers can at least fly over chaff, which is a nice advantage regardless. I guess it's worth looking at distance too. Reavers can move a total of 26" then charge, but no real other extensions. Skyweavers can move 22" and charge, but can also potentially get a twilight path move for a sweet, sweet 44" (though you can't really do that from the front line due to the short range of twilight path). The harlie book really needs to come out so I can see what kind of shenanigans I can engineer.
There are a ton of armies that through psychic powers, general speed, or special abilities can hit your front line turn 1.
But they start on the board which means if you go first you get to shoot them and push out your chaff bubble. And they also just hit your chaff anyway which if you set up right can die letting your guns again get a free set of shots into the chargers with the important stuff.
You also usually give up something for the speed. Either shooting or toughness or cp or all of the above.
The deepstrike nerf was still important. It was less about being charged first turn more about stuff like chaos plasma termis or inceptors or psions dropping and deleting things with rapid fire before you could fight back.
Well, look, it seems we agree melee isn't the problem but this change hurts melee more than shooting. So I feel this is a bad rule to begin with right there.
Then, the rule doesn't impact everyone equally, some army's method of getting to the backline was deep striking, some was "fly forty inches" and I think we can all agree that the poor bastard trying to run Drop Pod Sternguard doesn't need to be nerfed vs. the guy running some flavor of Eldar flying-advancing-everything. So, another problem area in the rule.
And lastly, even if we limit the discussion to very strong deep strike shooting units, e.g. Plasma Scions, and we agree that exceptions to the rule should be made for lots of melee stuff and for certain niche units like Drop Pods, whatever - I don't see why the Plasma Scions are bad but the Lemen Russ shooting me from 48-72 inches away is good.
Yes, you're right if I get to go first I can shoot the Leman Russ... assuming I also have long range shooting. So this encourages gunline vs. gunline and well, IMHO if anything that's a playstyle that should be discouraged. Plus, the rules already account for the safety of deep striking by not allowing you to put everything in DS reserves - at least half of the army will still be on the tabletop, shoot that instead, it's not like previous editions "null deployment" armies where you basically lose a turn.
This example of Russ vs. Scions feels particularly strained in the edition of 9 inch limits and chaff walls that will be taken because they're the most efficient points to CPs anyway, where the Plasma Scions will struggle to get in range of any meaningful target while the Leman Russ or Basilisk or whatever just shoots at what it pleases, sometimes ignoring even LoS.
So, I feel like this Beta Rule needs a dramatic and complete overhaul to the point where it would be better off being rescinded completely and any problematic units addressed directly through either rules changes or points increases. IMHO there are simply more units that should be exempt by this rule than affected by it, and in that case if we're looking at Hive Tyrants or Plasma Scions or whatever just change their particular deep strike to include this beta rule delayed entry aspect.
I've written to GW expressing my thoughts, although I'm kind of pessimistic about what good that does, but I just can't help complaining about this stupid rule when given the chance, sorry about the negativity lol =/
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
Regardlrss of what people who loved dropping hard-hitting units into ny backfield first turn and preventing me from playing the game think, I'm glad I might get a first turn if I don't get to go first.
I figure the beta rules will be tweaked like the smite ones were with possible exceptions built in but I actually have found they have helped make the game feel more balanced.
The guy who puts sternguard in drop pods wasn't the problem. But I faced more than enough alpha strike deep strike armies to know the problem was there. The issue isn't really about getting in your line first turn. And yes it hurts melee armies but a lot of them have other ways of getting there first turn or they can do it second turn and have your first turn burning a hole in the screen anyway.
Deep strike meant your strong close range shooting units and some melee units would effectively be immune to any shooting before they could strike on turn one. This was tilting a lot of list design and made a deep strike safety bubble required for armies. Leave a hole and your expensive backline will die with 0 recourse.
Yes long range shooting gunlines can still be an issue but this is an issue you can fix with proper amounts of terrain, make sure you have LOS blockers, cover, some stratagems, and even hiding your stuff for deepstrike on turn 2.
I think the rules need tweaking not a complete overhaul. And I think maybe a few units can be exempted out. Drop pods use to have rules that let them break the deepstrike rules on turn 1. Now might be a good time to do that again.
Regardlrss of what people who loved dropping hard-hitting units into ny backfield first turn and preventing me from playing the game think, I'm glad I might get a first turn if I don't get to go first.
Replace "dropping hard-hitting units in my backfield with" with "shooting Basilisks and Manticores into my backfield" and tell me why you're ok with the latter but not the former.
I feel that deep striking had a lot more counterplay in positioning your units and putting out chaff units - to the point where you basically dictated what you allowed your opponent to hit from DS, and with big armies denied him the entire half of the board. It was deep strike to midfield not backfield. Which, honestly would be another acceptable change, "can only come in outside the opponent's deployment zone". Anything is better than the current nonsense.
The only counterplay to long range shooting is "I hope the table has the right terrain" and against artillery units even that does nothing.
Anyway, whatever, it is what it is. We'll see what they decide to change about it. I've come to really hate this rule beta testing though, they take way too long to iterate on them and everyone plays with them as real rules from the day they're announced - and you sound like "that guy" when you say you want to play without it to benefit your army. I knew the Smite Beta Rule was bullshit for Grey Knights and they had to be exempted, but for months I had to suffer through it, and I know that this Deep Strike Beta Rule is bullshit for Grey Knights but my favorite army is disadvantaged again until September when something will maybe change. Terrific.
Multiple things can be problematic. Neither every army having easy access to turn 1 charges nor strong shooting from across the entire map are healthy for the game as a whole.
"Ignores Line Of Sight" needs some kind of blanket fix, ideally something like -1 to hit.
Grey Knights are in need of help with or without the rule. That has been true since the codex dropped. They are one of the armies that needs a guard detachment to be function.
I have played tank armies, arty armies, and so on and found I lose less to them first turn than I ever did to first turn deepstrikes. I think part of it is what they shoot in my army usually have backups. I do think think maybe a no line of sight -1 to hit would be good though. That pushes many of those units to hitting on 5s. There is also a reason when playing more competitive games I play alpha legion, screws some armies over badly.
DS had counterplay but at the same time it dictated how my list had to play more so than long range fire does. You come knowing there will be long range fire, 40k has always had that. The deepstrikes into my lines turn 1 was new and throwing a lot of stuff off.
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
I love Typhus on foot with pox's... +1 str/toughness and another +1 from a psychic power makes them super juicy.
Typhus is scary with a bunch of boosted poxwalkers behind him but the way my brother plays it just doesn't seem to work. He was advancing each turn and basically chasing a squad of 10 Necron Warriors but never quite getting in range before the rest of my army was shooting the hell out of his.
I don't really know how I can help him with his army. I did kind of melt his units with my Necrons. He had one opportunity to charge with a 5 man squad of Death Guard that had a power weapon but chose not to so he could try and use a plague spitters next turn.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
I love Typhus on foot with pox's... +1 str/toughness and another +1 from a psychic power makes them super juicy.
Typhus is scary with a bunch of boosted poxwalkers behind him but the way my brother plays it just doesn't seem to work. He was advancing each turn and basically chasing a squad of 10 Necron Warriors but never quite getting in range before the rest of my army was shooting the hell out of his.
I don't really know how I can help him with his army. I did kind of melt his units with my Necrons. He had one opportunity to charge with a 5 man squad of Death Guard that had a power weapon but chose not to so he could try and use a plague spitters next turn.
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
I love Typhus on foot with pox's... +1 str/toughness and another +1 from a psychic power makes them super juicy.
Typhus is scary with a bunch of boosted poxwalkers behind him but the way my brother plays it just doesn't seem to work. He was advancing each turn and basically chasing a squad of 10 Necron Warriors but never quite getting in range before the rest of my army was shooting the hell out of his.
I don't really know how I can help him with his army. I did kind of melt his units with my Necrons. He had one opportunity to charge with a 5 man squad of Death Guard that had a power weapon but chose not to so he could try and use a plague spitters next turn.
Typhus and poxwalkers is bad now. The pox engine costs Points now and your better off just spending those points elsewhere. I dropped him a long time ago because he’s a slow element in what is a deceptively fast army, and I would never take him now.
Instead if he spent those points on plaguebearer he wound have a much better time. A 30 man plaugebearer unit is either -1 or -2 to hit with spells, and is fast enough to keep with the his PBCs and drones which he should be playing. Plague drones (the demons) are also incredibly good right now, being extremely effective points per wound with T5, 4 wounds and 5++/5+++. They are also suprisingly killy. No ap but with the mounts doing 4 2 dmg attack’s a peice that trade really well with more expensive models.
I just moved to Austin, TX and went to my first game store here. There were 8 tables with 16 games going on (Really long tables cut in half)! I couldn't believe it!
Looks like I need to buy the new rules for my Chaos Marines and Tyranids.
If, if Reagan played disco He'd shoot it to shit You can't disco in Jackboots
I just moved to Austin, TX and went to my first game store here. There were 8 tables with 16 games going on (Really long tables cut in half)! I couldn't believe it!
Looks like I need to buy the new rules for my Chaos Marines and Tyranids.
Texas has one of the bigger 40k contingents.
Oh and also it is where GW is putting its kind of mini-version of Warhammer World as well.
Edit: Also Chaos is good this edition!
Mazzyx on
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
Regardlrss of what people who loved dropping hard-hitting units into ny backfield first turn and preventing me from playing the game think, I'm glad I might get a first turn if I don't get to go first.
Replace "dropping hard-hitting units in my backfield with" with "shooting Basilisks and Manticores into my backfield" and tell me why you're ok with the latter but not the former.
Not what I meant, and as someone who does have a Guard army, and only one Basilisk and one Manticore, i would never run that much artillery. In fact, I've never run both of them in the same game.
I would be perfectly happy with rules like.... you can only have one Heavy Support and one Elite and one Fast Attack per detachment. I think the game should be all about troops.
Artillery are one of the only things I think should have kept the random templates. And they should definitely take a hit to the hit roll if you don’t have LOS. Or they can only hit things out of LOS if an officer in the army does have LOS.
FC: 1435-5383-0883
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TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
I fought some tyranids with my undivided daemon army
-a Lord of Change with the robe relic and ethereal warlord trait can sometimes be so stupid hard to kill I feel a little bad
-Brought seekers for the first time. They got a first turn advance+charge for like 28 inches to tie up some big shooting monster. This felt cool until the slaanesh daemon prince failed to charge the same unit and was just left out on the middle of the table shrugging his shoulders. I'm pretty sure you need to have the loci on the unit after advancing to still charge so I might convert a herald on steed or something to keep up with the seekers. Also they crumble like potato chips
-Pink horrors advancing and shooting on the first turn to get into range sucked so bad. I should have just put them into the warp and waited til turn 2
-Skullreaver is disgusting
-Exalted Flamers are still my favorite daemon unit
I’m putting together a ton of these Dark Imperium starter Primaris Marines for my bandwagon deathwatch army, and man. These guys are such an improvement over every other starter figure. The arms and heads go in with little pegs so you can just swap any other kits in instead of having to slice everything up and ruin your thumbs. The pegs can be popped off so you can pose your dudes any way you want. All the mold lines fall along natural angles so it’s not a big hassle scraping every side of the model (looking at you original marine legs).
I don’t think I could put together regular marine kits again after these guys.
I’m putting together a ton of these Dark Imperium starter Primaris Marines for my bandwagon deathwatch army, and man. These guys are such an improvement over every other starter figure. The arms and heads go in with little pegs so you can just swap any other kits in instead of having to slice everything up and ruin your thumbs. The pegs can be popped off so you can pose your dudes any way you want. All the mold lines fall along natural angles so it’s not a big hassle scraping every side of the model (looking at you original marine legs).
I don’t think I could put together regular marine kits again after these guys.
I did the reiver easy build kit for some test painting and god they were nice.
Considering my army is CSM my kits are are old enough to vote, sometimes old enough to drink. I built 7 noise marines in the last few weeks. The amount of clean up on that shit is just insane.
I think part of the reason I want a deathwatch army is to play with actual new models.
Posts
Gah it's almost silly to go pure knight in light of that.
Looking to see what the Knight Codex changes point wise (if anything) but adding a decked out Errant and Crusader and a unit of 3 Armigers takes that list to like 3 points shy of 2k, and nets you a Super Heavy Detachment for a total of 11 CP. (The Armigers could also be split into 1 man units, but I have a sneaking suspicion that there are going to be some strategems that are going to make you want to run a full unit.)
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
It's great motivation for me to finally paint up all the Sisters models I've slowly bargain-hunted Ebay for over the last couple years.
And other things
His Gray Knight chapter list
+ No Force Org Slot +
Armoury of Titan: Single (1CP)
+ HQ +
Grand Master Voldus [10 PL, 190pts]: 6: Lore Master, Astral Aim, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Vortex of Doom, Warlord
Librarian [9 PL, 159pts]: Gate of Infinity, Nemesis Warding Stave, Storm Bolter, Vortex of Doom
+ Troops +
Strike Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Grey Knight (Daemon Hammer): Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Halberd): Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight (Sword): Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions
Strike Squad [7 PL, 120pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Grey Knight (Daemon Hammer): Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Falchions): Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight (Sword): Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight Justicar: Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm bolter
Terminator Squad [26 PL, 443pts]: Astral Aim
. Grey Knight Terminator Justicar: Nemesis Force Halberd, Storm bolter
. Terminator (Daemon Hammer): Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. 8x Terminator (Halberd): 8x Storm Bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Land Raider Crusader [16 PL, 337pts]: 2x Hurricane Bolter, Multi-melta, Storm Bolter, Twin Assault Cannon
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [40 PL, 630pts] ++
+ HQ +
Brother-Captain [9 PL, 152pts]: Desroyer of Crys'yllx, Nemesis Force Halberd, Purge Soul, Storm Bolter
+ Elites +
Apothecary [5 PL, 103pts]: Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Sanctuary
Paladin Ancient [7 PL, 142pts]: Banner of Refining Flame, Sanctuary, Storm Bolter and Falchion
Paladin Squad [19 PL, 233pts]: Gate of Infinity
. Paladin (Daemon Hammer): Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Storm Bolter
. Paladin (Halberd): Storm Bolter
. Paladin (Sword): Storm Bolter
. Paragon: Storm Bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions
++ Total: [115 PL, 1999pts] ++
Against my Death Guard and "Dark Mechanicum" admech list
+ Uncategorised +
Forge World: Stygies VIII
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, 129pts]: Eradication Ray, Omnissian Axe, Phosphor Serpenta
+ Troops +
Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 58pts]
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard (Arc Rifle): Arc rifle
. Vanguard (Plasma caliver): Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 58pts]
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard (Arc Rifle): Arc rifle
. Vanguard (Plasma caliver): Plasma caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
+ Heavy Support +
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 145pts]: Cognis heavy stubber, Smoke Launchers
. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [88 PL, 1609pts] ++
+ HQ +
Lord of Contagion [7 PL, 130pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, 6. Arch-Contaminator, Plaguereaper, The Suppurating Plate, Warlord
Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 5. Putrescent Vitality
+ Troops +
Plague Marines [10 PL, 154pts]
. Plague Champion: Boltgun, Plague knife, Power fist
. 4x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
. Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Blight launcher
. Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Plague Marines [10 PL, 154pts]
. Plague Champion: Boltgun, Plague knife, Power fist
. 4x Plague Marine w/ boltgun
. Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Blight launcher
. Plague Marine w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker
Poxwalkers [6 PL, 120pts]: 20x Poxwalker
+ Elites +
Foul Blightspawn [4 PL, 77pts]
Noxious Blightbringer [4 PL, 65pts]: Plasma pistol
+ Fast Attack +
Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe
Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe
Foetid Bloat-drone [8 PL, 158pts]: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe
+ Heavy Support +
Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy Slugger
++ Total: [110 PL, 1999pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)
Playing the Blitz mission from the vanilla rulebook with me defending. I score a point for every unit I kill, he scores points at the end for being in my deployment zones (1 in front/2 in back). After learning a bit from watching some battle reports I figured out how to best use my poxwalkers and had the two big groups spread across my deployments to deny deepstrikes, which was one of my two biggest concerns, the other being his land raider.
Turn out Onagers with Neutrons do work. Turn one shaved 12 wounds off his land raider and turn two knocked it down to 1 where it was polished off by a bloat drone. But I'm getting ahead of myself. His planetary bombardment missed EVERYTHING but two units of pox's, one made it's DG rolls and the other took one wound.
The rest of the match was an absolute slog. Just knock down, drag out, savagery with him trying to break through and my forces slowly winnowing down. Turn two he managed to get into melee range of my plagueburst with a bunch of characters that rolled out of their smoking Land Raider. I'd gotten to eager with it and got it in front of it's screen to get LoS. That was a mistake that had it in melee until turn 4, where it exploded killing Typhus, two of my opponents characters and savagely wounding two more (to be polished off by bloat drones... this is a trend). My left flank was held entirely by some pox's that refused to die, my Foul blightspawn who accounted for an entire 10-man squad of termies (str 11 plague hose, yes please), and a Lord of Contagion with stumble-steps who couldn't make a charge to save his life.
By turn four I was well in the lead, though a group of termies had deepstriked into my rear deployment and demolished some pox's, freeing up more room for him to deep strike.
Up to this point he'd failed most of his rolls to get units back on the board, but turn 5 he rolled and dumped EVERYTHING back on for reinforcements. By turn 6 he'd gated a unit of termies, used a stratagem to make them two smaller units and gated a land raider with more crap inside of it.
I dumped everything into killing a unit of termies that would have put me at 11 pts and him at 8, but one model held out. Even after the Onager shot one off the board with it's neurtron laser, because fuck that guy in particular. One termy who made his morale roll and saved against shooting and melee from three bloat drones and a Dominus made the unit count for 2 pts for where he'd ended up, and the random turn rule meant that the next roll ended the game.
Six rounds, final score 10-10. I murdered 10 units of Gray Knights, including all his characters plus Valdus (Valdus got super hosed by a bloat drone and Blightspawn), lost a squad of plague marines, both squads of skitarri, the blightcaller, one drone and the plagueburst.
Things I learned....
Onagers do work and are amazing
Plagueburst needs a screen or it's pretty much useless, though it's very hard to kill.
Plague marines are completely useless. I'd maybe take them at half the point cost.... A squad of them sat in a tower dumping gunfire into enemies the entire game and made maybe three wounds total.
Foul Blightspawn are life... that garden hose of his is a monster.
Typhus' pistol Destroyer hive is nothing to scoff at... it did work.
Foetid Bloat drones are easily the best unit in the codex... fast, hard hitting, pretty durable.
Skitarri are less useful than taking more poxwalkers... cancer guns didn't do much, but they ate some wounds for other things, so that was ok.
My opponent is a dirty cheat and Gray Knights are dirty cheaters too...
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
You have to deep strike by the end of turn 3? Anyone not deep striked by then should be "dead"? Or did they deep strike earlier or is this a Blitz specific rule? I've never done Blitz myself. Yeah, Plague Marines do suck. I recently had some success equipping them with Meltas and rolling them up with two Foul Blightspawn and a Chaos Lord in a Land Raider, but that was due to local meta and not that they're good I believe.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
You don't strictly need the Swarmlord for this, if you run Genestealers in a Kraken detachment there is a handy dandy strategem which lets you double their advance move (and Kraken advance with 3D6 pick the highest) for a potential 20" move, after which they can still charge. Though there's nothing stopping you from using both the Swarmlord and the strategem in conjunction to really get them zipping.
I have yet to get Typhus to work for me.
Death Guard feel a bit weird. My brother ran 4 5 man squads of Death Guard and only has 20 poxwalkers. I've also tried to get him to stop running Typhus if he isn't gonna deep strike him cause my brother refuses to run the poxwalkers away from Typhus so he goes on foot with them all. And then the hissy fits at losing any models or wounds.
He really needs to switch up his list.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
No, he wasn't really deep striking... Gray knights have a Gate of Infinity power... basically if it goes off you can teleport a unit within X of the caster. He managed that two turns in a row and I had not ability to stop him. If the roll at the end of turn 5 had been 1-3 the game would have ended 6-10. Turn 6 he gated again and got a unit inside a land raider into my back zone for another 2pts each to make it 10-10.
The stars just aligned so that he got 4 units back on the board turn 5, one of those had the Gate power, and he managed to roll successfully on two gates, two turns in a row and the match didn't end at turn 5 when it could have. If any of those had not happened I would have won.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I love Typhus on foot with pox's... +1 str/toughness and another +1 from a psychic power makes them super juicy.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Solidly middle tier, they are strong without being OP.
Most the battles I have had with them have felt close and like tactics and good positioning are whats swinging things.
Bravely Default / 3DS Friend Code = 3394-3571-1609
I think 15 made it through.
It's stuff like this that continues drive me up the wall with regards to the deep strike nerf beta rule.
The units that actually have some kind of deep strike (and pay points for it) are screwed over but everything else has a dozen different ways to get into melee turn one anyway.
But they start on the board which means if you go first you get to shoot them and push out your chaff bubble. And they also just hit your chaff anyway which if you set up right can die letting your guns again get a free set of shots into the chargers with the important stuff.
You also usually give up something for the speed. Either shooting or toughness or cp or all of the above.
The deepstrike nerf was still important. It was less about being charged first turn more about stuff like chaos plasma termis or inceptors or psions dropping and deleting things with rapid fire before you could fight back.
Red Grief wyches/reavers are great for tying down lines/guns. While both are cheap, both suffer from being pretty terrible damage if taken in efficient MSU units, ranging up to mediocre damage if decked out.
On the other side of the spectrum, I can put fusion clowns in clown cars to hit backline guns. The advantage there is that they can not only tie-up, but stand a good chance to actually destroy their targets (plus they're much harder to remove too). But getting that together is not cheap.
Both clowns and reavers can at least fly over chaff, which is a nice advantage regardless. I guess it's worth looking at distance too. Reavers can move a total of 26" then charge, but no real other extensions. Skyweavers can move 22" and charge, but can also potentially get a twilight path move for a sweet, sweet 44" (though you can't really do that from the front line due to the short range of twilight path). The harlie book really needs to come out so I can see what kind of shenanigans I can engineer.
Well, look, it seems we agree melee isn't the problem but this change hurts melee more than shooting. So I feel this is a bad rule to begin with right there.
Then, the rule doesn't impact everyone equally, some army's method of getting to the backline was deep striking, some was "fly forty inches" and I think we can all agree that the poor bastard trying to run Drop Pod Sternguard doesn't need to be nerfed vs. the guy running some flavor of Eldar flying-advancing-everything. So, another problem area in the rule.
And lastly, even if we limit the discussion to very strong deep strike shooting units, e.g. Plasma Scions, and we agree that exceptions to the rule should be made for lots of melee stuff and for certain niche units like Drop Pods, whatever - I don't see why the Plasma Scions are bad but the Lemen Russ shooting me from 48-72 inches away is good.
Yes, you're right if I get to go first I can shoot the Leman Russ... assuming I also have long range shooting. So this encourages gunline vs. gunline and well, IMHO if anything that's a playstyle that should be discouraged. Plus, the rules already account for the safety of deep striking by not allowing you to put everything in DS reserves - at least half of the army will still be on the tabletop, shoot that instead, it's not like previous editions "null deployment" armies where you basically lose a turn.
This example of Russ vs. Scions feels particularly strained in the edition of 9 inch limits and chaff walls that will be taken because they're the most efficient points to CPs anyway, where the Plasma Scions will struggle to get in range of any meaningful target while the Leman Russ or Basilisk or whatever just shoots at what it pleases, sometimes ignoring even LoS.
So, I feel like this Beta Rule needs a dramatic and complete overhaul to the point where it would be better off being rescinded completely and any problematic units addressed directly through either rules changes or points increases. IMHO there are simply more units that should be exempt by this rule than affected by it, and in that case if we're looking at Hive Tyrants or Plasma Scions or whatever just change their particular deep strike to include this beta rule delayed entry aspect.
I've written to GW expressing my thoughts, although I'm kind of pessimistic about what good that does, but I just can't help complaining about this stupid rule when given the chance, sorry about the negativity lol =/
The guy who puts sternguard in drop pods wasn't the problem. But I faced more than enough alpha strike deep strike armies to know the problem was there. The issue isn't really about getting in your line first turn. And yes it hurts melee armies but a lot of them have other ways of getting there first turn or they can do it second turn and have your first turn burning a hole in the screen anyway.
Deep strike meant your strong close range shooting units and some melee units would effectively be immune to any shooting before they could strike on turn one. This was tilting a lot of list design and made a deep strike safety bubble required for armies. Leave a hole and your expensive backline will die with 0 recourse.
Yes long range shooting gunlines can still be an issue but this is an issue you can fix with proper amounts of terrain, make sure you have LOS blockers, cover, some stratagems, and even hiding your stuff for deepstrike on turn 2.
I think the rules need tweaking not a complete overhaul. And I think maybe a few units can be exempted out. Drop pods use to have rules that let them break the deepstrike rules on turn 1. Now might be a good time to do that again.
Replace "dropping hard-hitting units in my backfield with" with "shooting Basilisks and Manticores into my backfield" and tell me why you're ok with the latter but not the former.
I feel that deep striking had a lot more counterplay in positioning your units and putting out chaff units - to the point where you basically dictated what you allowed your opponent to hit from DS, and with big armies denied him the entire half of the board. It was deep strike to midfield not backfield. Which, honestly would be another acceptable change, "can only come in outside the opponent's deployment zone". Anything is better than the current nonsense.
The only counterplay to long range shooting is "I hope the table has the right terrain" and against artillery units even that does nothing.
Anyway, whatever, it is what it is. We'll see what they decide to change about it. I've come to really hate this rule beta testing though, they take way too long to iterate on them and everyone plays with them as real rules from the day they're announced - and you sound like "that guy" when you say you want to play without it to benefit your army. I knew the Smite Beta Rule was bullshit for Grey Knights and they had to be exempted, but for months I had to suffer through it, and I know that this Deep Strike Beta Rule is bullshit for Grey Knights but my favorite army is disadvantaged again until September when something will maybe change. Terrific.
"Ignores Line Of Sight" needs some kind of blanket fix, ideally something like -1 to hit.
I have played tank armies, arty armies, and so on and found I lose less to them first turn than I ever did to first turn deepstrikes. I think part of it is what they shoot in my army usually have backups. I do think think maybe a no line of sight -1 to hit would be good though. That pushes many of those units to hitting on 5s. There is also a reason when playing more competitive games I play alpha legion, screws some armies over badly.
DS had counterplay but at the same time it dictated how my list had to play more so than long range fire does. You come knowing there will be long range fire, 40k has always had that. The deepstrikes into my lines turn 1 was new and throwing a lot of stuff off.
Ok yes massed baslisks is bullshit, but for a casual player it makes sense, it’s load of artillery right?
Meanwhile playing some Taurus and then a bunch of guys drop turn one and blows you off the board feels like total bullshit.
Again this for casual games, the second was never a problem for a competitive player running a decent screen.
Typhus is scary with a bunch of boosted poxwalkers behind him but the way my brother plays it just doesn't seem to work. He was advancing each turn and basically chasing a squad of 10 Necron Warriors but never quite getting in range before the rest of my army was shooting the hell out of his.
I don't really know how I can help him with his army. I did kind of melt his units with my Necrons. He had one opportunity to charge with a 5 man squad of Death Guard that had a power weapon but chose not to so he could try and use a plague spitters next turn.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Try a match where you swap armies?
Typhus and poxwalkers is bad now. The pox engine costs Points now and your better off just spending those points elsewhere. I dropped him a long time ago because he’s a slow element in what is a deceptively fast army, and I would never take him now.
Instead if he spent those points on plaguebearer he wound have a much better time. A 30 man plaugebearer unit is either -1 or -2 to hit with spells, and is fast enough to keep with the his PBCs and drones which he should be playing. Plague drones (the demons) are also incredibly good right now, being extremely effective points per wound with T5, 4 wounds and 5++/5+++. They are also suprisingly killy. No ap but with the mounts doing 4 2 dmg attack’s a peice that trade really well with more expensive models.
Looks like I need to buy the new rules for my Chaos Marines and Tyranids.
Texas has one of the bigger 40k contingents.
Oh and also it is where GW is putting its kind of mini-version of Warhammer World as well.
Edit: Also Chaos is good this edition!
Not what I meant, and as someone who does have a Guard army, and only one Basilisk and one Manticore, i would never run that much artillery. In fact, I've never run both of them in the same game.
I would be perfectly happy with rules like.... you can only have one Heavy Support and one Elite and one Fast Attack per detachment. I think the game should be all about troops.
-a Lord of Change with the robe relic and ethereal warlord trait can sometimes be so stupid hard to kill I feel a little bad
-Brought seekers for the first time. They got a first turn advance+charge for like 28 inches to tie up some big shooting monster. This felt cool until the slaanesh daemon prince failed to charge the same unit and was just left out on the middle of the table shrugging his shoulders. I'm pretty sure you need to have the loci on the unit after advancing to still charge so I might convert a herald on steed or something to keep up with the seekers. Also they crumble like potato chips
-Pink horrors advancing and shooting on the first turn to get into range sucked so bad. I should have just put them into the warp and waited til turn 2
-Skullreaver is disgusting
-Exalted Flamers are still my favorite daemon unit
I don’t think I could put together regular marine kits again after these guys.
I did the reiver easy build kit for some test painting and god they were nice.
Considering my army is CSM my kits are are old enough to vote, sometimes old enough to drink. I built 7 noise marines in the last few weeks. The amount of clean up on that shit is just insane.
I think part of the reason I want a deathwatch army is to play with actual new models.
They do as the molds stress. Thus why old molds produce a billion mold lines.