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Trump Admin Immigration Policy Thread - DACA, ICE, etc

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    If this gets papered over so "the country can move forward" when these monsters are out of power there's no hope for us.

    Sadly, the political will of this is not on our side. Change that, and you'll get a glimpse of true justice until then, though, the status quo will continue.

    Okay I'm cutting you both off right now. Please do not back and forth argue about this tangential topic. Thanks.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    The President this morning is blaming the Democrats for the “law” that makes us separate parents and children, and that they want to protect MS-13

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    The President this morning is blaming the Democrats for the “law” that makes us separate parents and children, and that they want to protect MS-13

    I mean someone is responding to this by simply calling him an amoral monster who both ordered its implementation and could end this today if he wanted to, right?

    Glancing around the major news sites earlier this morning it can't even crack the news cycle.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    The President this morning is blaming the Democrats for the “law” that makes us separate parents and children, and that they want to protect MS-13

    I mean someone is responding to this by simply calling him an amoral monster who both ordered its implementation and could end this today if he wanted to, right?

    Glancing around the major news sites earlier this morning it can't even crack the news cycle.

    I've seen it a few places. But yeah, even googling for it doesn't seem to turn up major cable outlets covering the story as a big deal.

  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    I feel dumb for not realizing that they must be involved in human trafficking somehow when "Trump ended human trafficking" and pizzagate became memes. It's *always* projection. Always.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    The President this morning is blaming the Democrats for the “law” that makes us separate parents and children, and that they want to protect MS-13
    His fucking chief of staff proudly announced their efforts to separate the children like two weeks ago, if that.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Henroid wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    The President this morning is blaming the Democrats for the “law” that makes us separate parents and children, and that they want to protect MS-13
    His fucking chief of staff proudly announced their efforts to separate the children like two weeks ago, if that.
    Kelly said it March 7, walked it back March 29, and rolled it out again May 11 after Trump yelled at him.



    So yes, Trump very obviously did this



    Edit: WSJ this morning:
    WASHINGTON—President Donald Trump suggested Saturday that Democrats were responsible for the separation of migrant children from their parents at the border, a policy set by his administration.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-blames-democrats-for-his-administrations-migrant-family-separation-policy-1527353230

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    If there is one thing I manage to say clearly in this post let it be this:

    Whenever you hear from this admin about how great their policy worked over the summer, and how terrible it is now: Know that they are referencing a complete outlier that is practically an inversion of all previous seasonal trends. Immigration spiked before Trump took office in FY17, then dropped, unrelated to any policy this administration put forth. FY18 is pretty average in all ways.

    April-2018-Migration-Graphic_0.jpg
    https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
    Note: That chart includes people properly presenting themselves to checkpoints, they would not be charged. The monthly average for FY18 was ~26,000 through FEB, and MAR - APR are sitting at ~37,500. Check link for stats.

    So, now this: I was curious how 100% prosecution would compare to... x? How often do we already do this?

    Vox observes that we only appeared to charge a little more than 10% of those apprehended prior to this policy.
    October 2017 to mid-April, before the new prosecution strategy officially went into effect, In March, 3,769 people were convicted of illegal entry in criminal courts — but 37,383 people were apprehended crossing into the US from Mexico.
    I noted the rate change in March because it seems(?) unlikely that the people convicted in March were actually apprehended in March.
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/8/17327512/sessions-illegal-immigration-border-asylum-families

    NBC offers an anecdote from last week that appears to fit the trend one might expect if the prosecution rate increased tenfold, and the frequency increased by 50%:
    From October 2017 to mid-April, before the new prosecution strategy officially went into effect, more than 700 children were reportedly separated from their parents at the border. The federal government has not released figures from May, but those who work on immigration cases have observed a large increase in the number of children affected. Nogueras said he previously saw only one or two such cases a week in the McAllen courtroom in the Southern District of Texas; last week, he saw about 33 cases

    But that may not actually reflect the full impact, because previously, deference was given to people with children. That quote notes only 700 were separated from OCT-APR. CBP reports that fifty thousand people crossed the border as "family units" during that period. Were only 7000 kids? Because that seems low.

    Now recall that from the start of FY17 (Orange) to DEC FY18 (red), we lost 20% of the kids we separated. I don't care what reforms they put in place, if we're dumping ten times the load on ORR and haven't dumped ten times the cash on them, I don't see how that missing number can go anywhere but up.

    I was going to make this real effort post and now cite all the memos about how this is a deterrence game, and contrast them with all the public denials, but I accidentally found myself reading the CBP's recommendations on reducing illegal crossings from Oct 2016 and got somehow even sadder:
    Unaccompanied children and families have presented new challenges in our immigration system. I have traveled to the southwest border 17 times over the last 34 months as Secretary and have seen this personally. We are determined to treat migrants in a humane manner. At the same time, we must enforce our immigration laws consistent with our enforcement priorities. This has included, and will continue to include, providing individuals with an opportunity to assert claims for asylum and other forms of humanitarian relief.

    At the same time, we are providing safe, alternative paths to our country for individuals in need of humanitarian protection. Earlier this year, the Government of Costa Rica announced its agreement to enter into a protection transfer arrangement with the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees and the International Organization for Migration to help address the Central American migration challenge. We’re also establishing an in-country referral program in countries of origin including Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala. This program enables vulnerable residents in the region to be considered for refugee protection in the United States after being screened and interviewed by DHS officers. We have also announced an expansion of the categories of individuals eligible for participation in our Central American Minors program when accompanied by a qualified child. We promote and encourage use of these programs.

    Border security alone cannot overcome the powerful push factors of poverty and violence that exist in Central America. Walls alone cannot prevent illegal migration. Ultimately, the solution is long-term investment in Central America to address the underlying push factors in the region.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    So...would it be an exaggeration to call this Trump's Rotherham?

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    I think a nonzero number of perpetrators in the government have to experience some kind of consequence first...

  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    If there is one thing I manage to say clearly in this post let it be this:

    Whenever you hear from this admin about how great their policy worked over the summer, and how terrible it is now: Know that they are referencing a complete outlier that is practically an inversion of all previous seasonal trends. Immigration spiked before Trump took office in FY17, then dropped, unrelated to any policy this administration put forth. FY18 is pretty average in all ways.

    I would think, if anything, immigration unusually dropped due to this administration. They are nakedly anti-immigration.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Heffling wrote: »
    If there is one thing I manage to say clearly in this post let it be this:

    Whenever you hear from this admin about how great their policy worked over the summer, and how terrible it is now: Know that they are referencing a complete outlier that is practically an inversion of all previous seasonal trends. Immigration spiked before Trump took office in FY17, then dropped, unrelated to any policy this administration put forth. FY18 is pretty average in all ways.

    I would think, if anything, immigration unusually dropped due to this administration. They are nakedly anti-immigration.

    For a brief bit, until people realized he was just full of bullshit. The numbers are basically back to normal.

    blog_southwest_border_apprehensions_april_2018.gif

    moniker on
  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    The fact that he's blaming democrats for this. And his base will believe it. It's sickening to me.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Mill wrote: »

    The DHS, as a centralized hub of intelligence has the opportunity to make sense, if it were run properly. It is ICE that has no moral function

  • archivistkitsunearchivistkitsune Registered User regular
    I was referring more to the name of the department. The idea of better coordinating our intelligence agencies is fine, but I feel we could have achieved that with a department that had less of any awful name. Hell, might have been easier to prevent a shit agency like ICE from being formed if it was the Department of Intelligence.

  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Why the fascination with MS13 suddenly? Is it simply because it’s a cool name?

    PSN: Honkalot
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Honk wrote: »
    Why the fascination with MS13 suddenly? Is it simply because it’s a cool name?

    It's been a conservative through-line for a while. It's an easy way to equate all Latinx people with danger.

    durandal4532 on
    We're all in this together
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    There are so many Mexican immigrants in the USA that it’s hard to portray them as the dangerous “other” since the average citizen probably knows several, and knows that they are hard working and not criminals. So a scary urban street gang is useful to hype up in order to push racial hatred.

  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Basically, by focusing on MS-13, Trump and his supporters can pretend they're not racist

    "We're not racist, we're just talking about criminals!"

    Conveniently, they leave out the fact that they seem to think that all hispanics are MS-13. Which is, of course, pretty frickin' racist.

    It's the same shit they do with Muslims. They're only concerned about the "extreme" ones, but then go around talking about how Islam is such an extreme thing.

    This shit just digs into me on a personal level. My parents are immigrants. My late brother was an immigrant (was pretty much all American, considering that he was brought to the US as a baby). My uncle and my late aunt? Both immigrants. The kind, old Italian man who lived acrosss the street from me as a kid? Immigrant. I've been around immigrants my entire life, and I have to keep hearing all this ignorant talk about people like my family is just so infuriating.

    Zomro on
  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Like I understand it’s just a dogwhistle I was more anally wondering why they settled on MS13, haven’t heard them mentioned for a decade at least before this.

    PSN: Honkalot
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    Like I understand it’s just a dogwhistle I was more anally wondering why they settled on MS13, haven’t heard them mentioned for a decade at least before this.

    Fox News has been talking about them a lot.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The best MS13 stories are the ones where people who are seeking asylum from MS13 are deported anyway, sometimes for having MS13 connections. Kinda demonstrates the actual priority.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    White House is now echoing the president (I love a universe where this isn't assumed) and saying these are Democratic policies. Sorry, "Democrat" policies, because this is right wing talk radio as president:



    Josh Marshall is the editor and publisher of TPM.

    The idea that your vote is a moral statement about you or who you vote for is some backwards ass libertarian nonsense. Your vote is about society. Vote to protect the vulnerable.
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    “If Democrats hadn’t encouraged immigration, we wouldn’t have to lose quite so many immigrant children”

    Fuck all the way off you duplicitous bigots

    ACsTqqK.jpg
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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    How are the cable news or papers reporting this? "Republicans/Administration lie about responsibility for missing children", or just drop in "Republicans say...", and make it a he-said-she-said, and obfuscate shit.

    If it's the latter as I expect, then they can join the fuck off crew too. Truth should not be anathema, and balance only matters if both sides are arguing in good faith.
    <snippy>
    Edit: WSJ this morning:
    WASHINGTON—President Donald Trump suggested Saturday that Democrats were responsible for the separation of migrant children from their parents at the border, a policy set by his administration.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-blames-democrats-for-his-administrations-migrant-family-separation-policy-1527353230

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Just use the word lie already.

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  • SicariiSicarii The Roose is Loose Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    How would open borders encourage human smuggling?

    Sicarii on
    gotsig.jpg
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Sicarii wrote: »
    How would open borders encourage human smuggling?

    I guess...allowing residents to live undocumented increases the likelihood of trafficking? It doesn't really matter, they just needed something that contained all the keywords conservative voters look for.

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Democrats aren’t cruel enough to incoming people, which encourages people to try and get in, leading to increases in problems associated with immigration, such as human trafficking. Is the awful, inhuman logic.

    ACsTqqK.jpg
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Democrats encouraged immigration (by making the USA a nation someone might want to live in), Republicans promise to do the opposite.

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Central OhioRegistered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Sicarii wrote: »
    How would open borders encourage human smuggling?

    I guess...allowing residents to live undocumented increases the likelihood of trafficking? It doesn't really matter, they just needed something that contained all the keywords conservative voters look for.

    That seems backward. Traffickers are likely to use fear of ICE as a means to exert control over their victims.

    l7ygmd1dd4p1.jpeg
    3b2y43dozpk3.jpeg
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Sicarii wrote: »
    How would open borders encourage human smuggling?

    I guess...allowing residents to live undocumented increases the likelihood of trafficking? It doesn't really matter, they just needed something that contained all the keywords conservative voters look for.

    That seems backward. Traffickers are likely to use fear of ICE as a means to exert control over their victims.

    Well first off, the people saying it are apparently racist monsters, and secondly, they are also liars.

  • Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    There's a different take that the "lost" children are just off the radar and, if anything, we want to keep it that way because, well, ICE.

    Now whether or not that holds any water, no clue.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Sicarii wrote: »
    How would open borders encourage human smuggling?

    I guess...allowing residents to live undocumented increases the likelihood of trafficking? It doesn't really matter, they just needed something that contained all the keywords conservative voters look for.

    That seems backward. Traffickers are likely to use fear of ICE as a means to exert control over their victims.

    For the people this statement is talking to, it's logically consistent, based on existing bias.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    There's a different take that the "lost" children are just off the radar and, if anything, we want to keep it that way because, well, ICE.

    Now whether or not that holds any water, no clue.

    That makes sense for some, but we don't actually have any idea if that is the case (obviously) so throwing up hands and going "Problem solved!" seems to be a bad idea

  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    But, didnt they already find some of them were trafficked? And either fing way it is the responsibility of the kidnappers at ICE to prevent harm to the kids.

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
This discussion has been closed.