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The Story of an Unhappy Father
altFather
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Dear Mods,
This is an alt account. I am a long time member in good standing, but as I use that name elsewhere, I wanted to limit the chances of any connection. I hope you will still allow me to post.
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So I have a story to share. I'm not sure what I am looking for. Perhaps I just want to put my thoughts to writing, to share, to hear from others who have been in similar situations and can provide insight as to what worked, didn't work, or what helped them make their decision. I realize that below is going to be biased. I'll start by saying I do not place sole blame on any one person. I have my issues that need to be worked through. I could also keep going, I have a lot on my mind, but I tried to keep it... somewhat short.
My story starts about eight years ago when I met my wife. Things started out well. I am a year older, but we were both mid twenties, college educated professionals with a few years of work experience. Neither of us had much on the way of long term relationship experience, my longest at that point about a year and a half and hers much less. I was working out at the time and so was she. I liked her friends and she liked mine. We didn't have a lot in common in terms of interests and sexual compatibility, but we were willing to try for each other. Our mid to long term goals were a good match, though. Things were occasionally bumpy, I think in the first two years I suggested we were not a good fit twice, but she convinced me that we just needed to work on things harder, since nothing worth working for is easy. I decided after that not to suggest it again. Before our marriage she suggested it and even stayed with her parents for a week. When she returned we decided to keep going.
Fast forward to now. We are married, own a home and have a little one shy of a year by a few months. About a month ago I pointed out to her that our lack of intimacy was a problem for me. I mainly meant sex, but the truth is we don't really do anything. A kiss in the morning before I leave for work is about it. We haven't had sex in about a year and a half, since shortly after conception of our child. I was partly to blame for that, being a little uncomfortable with sex when she was pregnant. She didn't protest, though. Prior to that, for about another year and a half sex had become a job. Every month when the sticks and apps said she was fertile we'd have sex and that was it. Before that it was less frequent and less adventurous than I would have liked, but it existed. We used to cuddle, but even that feels like years ago. I wasn't open about my concerns, though. Communication has always been a problem for me. When I brought this up with her it set things in motion. She has suggested several times that we see a couples therapist. I never had a high opinion of them, and being the big strong manly man I am, didn't want to admit defeat. However, I finally agreed.
I realized that sex wasn't the only issue. Even before we bought our house, I had expressed to my wife that I felt like we were just roommates. Even after moving in to the house, not long after, I told her I felt like I was paying rent to live in my own house. I realized that for quite some time I felt like she was overly critical of everything I did, to the point that I now feel like I need not just her permission, but her approval to do anything. She hates this and tells me I don't do enough, but then when I try to do stuff I do it wrong or not to her timeline. One example that sticks with me is when I put a kitchen hand towel in the kitchen drawer wrong. It was the right drawer, but the wrong spot of the drawer. This sent her into a fit about how I can never remember anything and ruined the rest of the evening (she proceeded to find everything I did wrong after that point and told me about it).
I don't claim to be perfect. I do forget, I ask the same question multiple times sometimes. I don't always pay attention. My communication is poor and usually I let resentment build until I have a flood of emotions (but not usually anger and never violence). I tend to retire to my computer when I am stressed. Since being married she has mentioned divorce twice. The last time I remember the most because I've never been so angry in my life. She was pregnant. I was painting our bedroom, finishing it up so I could move on to the nursery. I don't remember the reason, but she told me at least the room would look nice for when we sold the place, her tone clear she was discussing divorce even if she didn't say the word. I had to stop and go into another room to cool off. When I came back I told her, likely sternly, that I didn't appreciate her saying that and that she shouldn't. Her response was "or what?" I was shaking. I didn't do anything, but it took me a half an hour to calm down.
My wife has anxiety and depression. She has seen a therapist for as long as I have been with her. She has been on medications the whole time too. Both of those were also the case for years prior to us meeting. I've tried to be patient with her. However, I feel like I've sacrificed all my happiness so that she can be at best... sustained. She is clearly not happy, or if she is then I can't read another human being to save my life. I feel like she's taken a lot of her suffering out on me at times. I think she recognizes this, but I am not sure I've detected any change over the years, except that the patience I thought I once had seems a dream.
We have little in common, as I said. This became super apparent with the birth of our child, where our free time dropped to a few hours a week. I have no desire to sit in front of the tv on my phone while she is on her laptop doing work, yet she works from home and I am her only social contact. If I go on my computer she gets upset I am not spending time with her. I've urged her to meet new people, explore new activities, find a new job. Her anxiety is always the reason she doesn't. She's finally decided to take a yoga class. I hope for her sake it works out. I'm not sure if she does if it'll help us, but I hope it'll help her. From my recent soul searching, I think I need to have more in common, to want to spend time together, doing things that make us both happy, instead of just tolerating the other's activities.
We have our first couples therapy session tomorrow. We chatted a bit last night and I told her that my goals for the sessions were to improve communication, figure out how to peel back the resentment, anger and hurt, and to have an open and honest discussion about where we are and what is needed to make our relationship work, and whether that was attainable. I care for her, I want her happy and healthy, I want her job, family and friends to treat her well. I told her this. She asked if I still loved her and I said I don't know.
My biggest fear is our child. I've read all the stuff. Religious websites suggest you sacrifice your life, essentially, to stay married for the child. Others suggest that on low conflict marriages, which is what we have right now, it is better to stay together. But how long will it stay low conflict if resentment and anger continues to build? I am not the child of divorce. I am a child of parents who stuck together for me. I see how miserable they are. If I could go back in time I would tell them to get a divorce.
I've been thinking a lot since that conversation a month ago. I could keep going, but I've already written a wall of text. Clearly I could use some individual therapy myself. Regardless of what happens with my wife and I, I think it makes sense to have a couple of months of that, to work through some of these deep seated issues that I've just learned to bury and ignore.
This is an alt account. I am a long time member in good standing, but as I use that name elsewhere, I wanted to limit the chances of any connection. I hope you will still allow me to post.
---
So I have a story to share. I'm not sure what I am looking for. Perhaps I just want to put my thoughts to writing, to share, to hear from others who have been in similar situations and can provide insight as to what worked, didn't work, or what helped them make their decision. I realize that below is going to be biased. I'll start by saying I do not place sole blame on any one person. I have my issues that need to be worked through. I could also keep going, I have a lot on my mind, but I tried to keep it... somewhat short.
My story starts about eight years ago when I met my wife. Things started out well. I am a year older, but we were both mid twenties, college educated professionals with a few years of work experience. Neither of us had much on the way of long term relationship experience, my longest at that point about a year and a half and hers much less. I was working out at the time and so was she. I liked her friends and she liked mine. We didn't have a lot in common in terms of interests and sexual compatibility, but we were willing to try for each other. Our mid to long term goals were a good match, though. Things were occasionally bumpy, I think in the first two years I suggested we were not a good fit twice, but she convinced me that we just needed to work on things harder, since nothing worth working for is easy. I decided after that not to suggest it again. Before our marriage she suggested it and even stayed with her parents for a week. When she returned we decided to keep going.
Fast forward to now. We are married, own a home and have a little one shy of a year by a few months. About a month ago I pointed out to her that our lack of intimacy was a problem for me. I mainly meant sex, but the truth is we don't really do anything. A kiss in the morning before I leave for work is about it. We haven't had sex in about a year and a half, since shortly after conception of our child. I was partly to blame for that, being a little uncomfortable with sex when she was pregnant. She didn't protest, though. Prior to that, for about another year and a half sex had become a job. Every month when the sticks and apps said she was fertile we'd have sex and that was it. Before that it was less frequent and less adventurous than I would have liked, but it existed. We used to cuddle, but even that feels like years ago. I wasn't open about my concerns, though. Communication has always been a problem for me. When I brought this up with her it set things in motion. She has suggested several times that we see a couples therapist. I never had a high opinion of them, and being the big strong manly man I am, didn't want to admit defeat. However, I finally agreed.
I realized that sex wasn't the only issue. Even before we bought our house, I had expressed to my wife that I felt like we were just roommates. Even after moving in to the house, not long after, I told her I felt like I was paying rent to live in my own house. I realized that for quite some time I felt like she was overly critical of everything I did, to the point that I now feel like I need not just her permission, but her approval to do anything. She hates this and tells me I don't do enough, but then when I try to do stuff I do it wrong or not to her timeline. One example that sticks with me is when I put a kitchen hand towel in the kitchen drawer wrong. It was the right drawer, but the wrong spot of the drawer. This sent her into a fit about how I can never remember anything and ruined the rest of the evening (she proceeded to find everything I did wrong after that point and told me about it).
I don't claim to be perfect. I do forget, I ask the same question multiple times sometimes. I don't always pay attention. My communication is poor and usually I let resentment build until I have a flood of emotions (but not usually anger and never violence). I tend to retire to my computer when I am stressed. Since being married she has mentioned divorce twice. The last time I remember the most because I've never been so angry in my life. She was pregnant. I was painting our bedroom, finishing it up so I could move on to the nursery. I don't remember the reason, but she told me at least the room would look nice for when we sold the place, her tone clear she was discussing divorce even if she didn't say the word. I had to stop and go into another room to cool off. When I came back I told her, likely sternly, that I didn't appreciate her saying that and that she shouldn't. Her response was "or what?" I was shaking. I didn't do anything, but it took me a half an hour to calm down.
My wife has anxiety and depression. She has seen a therapist for as long as I have been with her. She has been on medications the whole time too. Both of those were also the case for years prior to us meeting. I've tried to be patient with her. However, I feel like I've sacrificed all my happiness so that she can be at best... sustained. She is clearly not happy, or if she is then I can't read another human being to save my life. I feel like she's taken a lot of her suffering out on me at times. I think she recognizes this, but I am not sure I've detected any change over the years, except that the patience I thought I once had seems a dream.
We have little in common, as I said. This became super apparent with the birth of our child, where our free time dropped to a few hours a week. I have no desire to sit in front of the tv on my phone while she is on her laptop doing work, yet she works from home and I am her only social contact. If I go on my computer she gets upset I am not spending time with her. I've urged her to meet new people, explore new activities, find a new job. Her anxiety is always the reason she doesn't. She's finally decided to take a yoga class. I hope for her sake it works out. I'm not sure if she does if it'll help us, but I hope it'll help her. From my recent soul searching, I think I need to have more in common, to want to spend time together, doing things that make us both happy, instead of just tolerating the other's activities.
We have our first couples therapy session tomorrow. We chatted a bit last night and I told her that my goals for the sessions were to improve communication, figure out how to peel back the resentment, anger and hurt, and to have an open and honest discussion about where we are and what is needed to make our relationship work, and whether that was attainable. I care for her, I want her happy and healthy, I want her job, family and friends to treat her well. I told her this. She asked if I still loved her and I said I don't know.
My biggest fear is our child. I've read all the stuff. Religious websites suggest you sacrifice your life, essentially, to stay married for the child. Others suggest that on low conflict marriages, which is what we have right now, it is better to stay together. But how long will it stay low conflict if resentment and anger continues to build? I am not the child of divorce. I am a child of parents who stuck together for me. I see how miserable they are. If I could go back in time I would tell them to get a divorce.
I've been thinking a lot since that conversation a month ago. I could keep going, but I've already written a wall of text. Clearly I could use some individual therapy myself. Regardless of what happens with my wife and I, I think it makes sense to have a couple of months of that, to work through some of these deep seated issues that I've just learned to bury and ignore.
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A lot of tension is normal during a pregnancy and just after the kid is born, and while sex during pregnancy is encouraged, after the baby is born it's a long time before you should be at it again regardless. I was the worst during both pregnancies and the aftermath of the second left me pretty scarred in more ways than one. That's not to say that's all that's going on here, just that pregnancy and postpartum are always extremely stressful in the best of relationships. I'm not sure why you'd say she isn't allowed to talk about divorce; of course she is. That should be a jumping-off point for a serious conversation, not verboten subject matter to be shut down without discussion. It might be an upsetting conversation, but I don't understand the amount of rage you describe here.
As far as I can tell, it's never better to stay together for the kid. If you can't come into some sort of arrangement where you can raise the child as agreeable companions if not star-struck lovers then just... don't. I hate to say this, but you are probably not going to work things out in a way that leaves you with a functional marriage that looks exactly the way you both want it to.
Don't say bad things to or about each other in front of the kid; they can't understand you now but it's a bad habit to get into. Get a lawyer. She should too. Custody is going to be a huge issue, but don't make any decisions out of anger, resentment, or malice, and do so with lawyers present while you still like each other.
You don't need to present yourself completely without bias. This isn't a research paper. It's good to be fair, but fairness and cold detachment are not the same and a lot of the time can't even coexist. The feelings of each party matter, and are so important when it comes to the kind of compromise, one way or another, that you will need to make in the very near future.
As for your first point, I am approaching agreement with that. I've tried to communicate better since our initial conversation. She stated several times she doesn't want to be surprised, so we have discussed some things, such as our child. I was clear I want to remain a part of its life and she acknowledged that. She did follow up with a statement about not being able to afford the area and leaving, which is an area I hope therapy can help us handle better, because her leaving the area will make it challenging to remain a part of he child's life, or force me into a two-weekend a month situation.
Like Ceres mentioned, hormones are definitely crazy during and after pregnancy. It was easy for me to dismiss that, or not take them as seriously as I should have. But, both my wife and I have had some very tough days/few days. That's normal. I haven't met a parent who said it was easy. There are definitely times when I think about divorce, and I've had those thoughts before we had a baby too. We've discussed it multiple times, but decided to stick together. So far, I don't regret it.
One thing that I think helps is that I've insisted we do some things together somewhat often. We have the benefit of having very accessible, free childcare. So we occasionally go out a bit after our baby is asleep. Whether its for a walk around the neighborhood, a late dinner, or a drink and some snacks. We also sometimes just insist on watching a show together that we both like. It definitely helps.
I'll also say that as a child of divorced parents I think they did the right thing. My parents were arguing constantly, sometimes shouting matches. Multiple times per week and usually over the smallest things. Thankfully, it never escalated past that. I can still see some of the effects it had on me 25 years later. I think it would have been better if they'd divorced sooner. In my opinion, both of my parents improved as people after divorce. And both me and my brother have had good lives and done well.
If you can't afford the area on your own, well... again, I hate to say it, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. If you have to sell, you have to sell- find an apartment or house you can afford and rebuild your life and everything. If you end up being the two-weekend-a-month dad, at least you're still in the kid's life.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
Now that I think about it, I feel a bit sick that I let it go on like that for so long without noticing. I'm not sure if I just got bogged down in wanting to be in a relationship that I didn't care or what. We've tried to do date nights. Usually they last for a few weeks and then things get busy and we stop. Sometimes my fault, sometimes hers. I think usually we just remember that only one of us enjoys a given date night and lose interest. I've tried initiating sex, only to be regularly rejected and to the point I don't care to try any more (both before and after the child). I've tried other forms of intimacy, too, meet with the same. She tells me I am not romantic enough, which is likely true, but my desire to be romantic is shot.
Thanks for your thoughts on your parents and divorce. She and I do well together when it comes to our child. We are both around for bath time, we take turns during the night, we both share drop off and pick up at daycare so we are both active in their care. We don't fight around our child.
Now that you have a child together, your main concern should be "what is best for the child?" and you are going to have to be very honest with yourself about that. I think that staying together solely for the child is a terrible idea.
My advice can be summed up to this. Trust your gut.
In the long run, you are going to have to be able to look your child in the eyes and tell them why you did what you did, and you are going to want to know that you did the right thing. I have a 13 year old son, and I had this exact conversation with him within the last year about why his Mother and I are no longer together. It's a hard conversation to have, but I know I did the right thing by him. He doesn't have to understand, or even agree with me. I know I did the right thing.
From talking with my wife yesterday, she thinks things are fine. She told me she knew this is how things were going to be. She seemed surprised that I was expecting something else. I'm not really sure what I was expecting, but thinking about it now, I'm not sure "someone I want to spend time with" is a lot to ask for someone you are going to spend the rest of your life (potentially) with. Maybe it is? Maybe 8 years of a relationship isn't enough time to know we've tried everything?
I'm also a bit torn as she's been nice to me over the last two weeks or so, when I told her I was on the fence about us. Torn because in the past when I've mentioned feeling a certain way she'd be nice, but we'd just end up settling back into a pattern again where she was overly critical of me.
Regarding the comment that you were not being romantic I have had this exact conversation with my wife during some tougher times and initially I resented it. Why should I be the one always initiating and "doing the work"?
After some time and talk though it was a combo of anxiety and lack of self esteem on her part and "comfortable expectation" on mine.
The way I broke through this was a lot of work and time to talk about and show the things that made me love her and trying to be conscious that she's a separate person and not some entity of being married. You might find this stuff is no longer there but for me it still was/is.
For her, she did get help in terms of medication and consultation to help with anxiety and self esteem but in my understanding this will always be an issue for us to work on.
My wife also had postpartum depression with our first and it can't be overstated how shitty this is (from what she told me and my experiences). I would not wish that on my enemies.
Sorry that's a long winded way of saying it's possible to drift out of intimacy and it takes lots of conscious work to rekindle (initially) if you find you want to.
Just don't rush is my advice.
New marriage, new kid and mental health challenges is stress city.
Her anxiety also means everything else is more important than us: work, the house, the child (this one I understand), helping and doing things for others (but not us). I've tried to take on more and more around the house, to free up her time, but she always finds other things to insert into the gaps.
That's the heavy shit to be hit with.
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Due to a series of events, illness and such on my part, I came to a realization that I was utterly miserable, and had been doing all in my power to hold together a crumbling marriage for the majority of our relationship for the benefit of my son and then children, once my daughter was born. There was constantly an air of tension in our house, we were not affectionate, we were not intimate, we were snipping at one another.
The realization I had was that I was causing more harm to my children by staying with my ex, than I would by separating and eventually divorcing. You are the template for your children, how you act is how your children learn to act, how you love is how they learn to love. My ex and I were providing an absolute horrible template of a marriage (or any relationship for that matter). I did not want my son and daughter to expect their partners to treat them as my ex and I did. My children have been very happy with the new arrangements, especially now that they live with me. Seeing how happy they are, and hearing their comments on how much more they like daddy now, I wish I had made this decision when they were younger, so that I could be the better dad that I am now. I am not saying I was a "bad" dad before, but I was miserable and I know how empathetic children can be.
Now, with that all said, do not rush into it, but do not let your little one be the excuse to not do it, as long as the two of you co-parent well, mommy and daddy not living together will be normal, not a drastic change.
On the topic of her moving far away and hindering your parenting time, Lawyer ... Lawyer ... Lawyer there are sometimes statutes that limit the distance the custodial parent can move from the non-custodial parent, without hardship or a really good reason (new job offer that is not lateral or worse)
We had our first session today. Was pretty short at only 45 minutes, but we started airing grievances. My wife definitely got more time than I did to express herself. Next week we each have a one on one and the following week we resume couples sessions.
If not, though, divorce is absolutely the correct option. Websites that say you should stay together "for the child" should be burned to the ground. Especially when they are very young, and will likely remember very little of the separation.
It can often be absolutely a good idea to stick together for the kids, as negative parts of a marriage can last for 5 or so years, and get significantly better afterwards. And bad again too! There's a reason your vow says for better or for worse, and not for better or for worse or until i decide this sucks.
Seperation and Divorce could be the right option for you. Just cause it sucks now, or has for a few years, does not mean this is true.
Please keep in mind that during bad periods of a marriage, that our mind does funny things and remembers history only negatively. The positives go away, and we almost always tell our friends how much it sucks, and it will sound to them like the two of you never had anything in common. this is normal.
I highly recommend the material at this website: http://www.marriagehelper.com/, including their podcasts, youtubes, and articles. They also have a podcast on how to find a couples therapist that is focused on saving the marriage (which means making it good), and not a therapist that is focused on the two individual's happiness.
I advocate for you to decide what you want and go in that direction. If you decide working on the marriage is the right thing to do, commit to that and work out it. Alternatively, if you decide it's your own personal happiness, go with that, and that could mean you work on the marriage, or you don't.
Traditional couples therapy has been shown to be successful at improving a heavily distressed relationship about 25% of the time. That's it!
Emotionally focussed therapy (EFT) and Gottman therapy, both around since the early 90s, have been shown to have success rates at improving heavily distressed relationships around 75 to 90% of the time.
So if those things don't ring your bell, that might not be the kind of organization for you.
My parents only split when I was old enough to get that and not particularly resent it, but the arguing alone was enough to make me think a little less of them for a while.
This is a pretty heavy misinterpretation. They helped my marriage significantly and we didn't get that from them at all.
I could even refer you to articles and podcasts where they advise not to have sex at times, and also advise to get a divorce! But ya know. First impressions?
I can has cheezburger, yes?
"staying together for the kids" is an excellent way to raise children with extremely unhealthy ideas about relationships.
You could, but I took a pretty long, hard look at a lot of those things myself because I'm incredibly wary of links to relationship sites like the one you described. It's kind of part of my job here. I read articles, testimonials, scoured the site, looked into the background of the person who runs the site, and looked at the interviews and which organizations are most enthusiastic. The tone of the site itself is money-grabbing, which is another turnoff. The claims he makes and the ideas he espouses are going to be anathema to those who believe (as I do) that no one owes or is owed sex to any person in any relationship for any reason.
Glad it worked out for you, but people looking for advice from this thread should go to into that kind of thing with eyes wide open. If it floats the boats of both people in the relationship then great, go for it. Just make sure both parties are clear and comfortable with what they're in for.
I'm aware of the studies and opinion pieces into the effects of divorce on children. Much like Ceres, the ones that talk about the importance of god or prayer in your marriage carry little weight with me. I do read them, though, as there can be truth in the opinion even if I disagree with the motivation. I've read ones without the religious push that talk about staying together in low conflict situations, but as I mentioned, they don't discuss the effects of continued resentment and anger on the marriage and whether the low conflict situation turns into a high conflict one. And if it did, would it have been better to divorce earlier, before the escalation and while the children were younger. Then there are studies and empirical evidence (some in this thread, plus my own) that shows some children of parents that stayed together for the kids would have preferred their parents divorce.
The more I think about it, the more I think that has impacted me significantly. My parents showed the dedication to stay married for me, but they weren't really together. I can't honestly remember them ever having a shared interest or hobby. My dad would do his thing while my mom was home. Now that they are older, my dad is home all the time and my mom goes on numerous trips with her friends, but never my dad. They haven't slept in the same bed for well over 20 years. They barely talk to each other and when they do it's just bickering. I don't normally get angry or raise my voice, except with my parents, because when they start bickering they both must always have the last word. I think that when I met my wife she checked off the boxes I thought were important from watching my parents without thinking about whether or not I should use their relationship as a good model. Over the years I've learned other details about their marriage that I shouldn't probably be privy to. All of that together suggests their relationship is a terrible one to mimic, unless my goal is misery.
Obviously, I wish I knew what I know now eight years ago. I'm still going to try therapy. I can't say I know the result. Stuff needs to change, but I feel like I've already changed a lot and don't have much left I care to change. I've given up almost all of my hobbies and interests to help her more in hopes she could free up time to do stuff that makes her happy, yet she still seems unhappy. She says otherwise, but how she treats me much of the time doesn't jive with that. It wouldn't surprise me if she felt the same way, about getting she has already changed a lot. My hope is the therapy helps us identify what needs to change and then we can figure out if we have the energy to make those changes.
As for the therapist, he claims to practice EFT, which seems like a positive thing for learning to work on relationship problems.
The point of staying together for the kids is to decide to make the marriage work, not to just stay together and be bitter and resentful. I have read studies around the impact of 'staying together and bitter' and it's not that great. If you don't think you can make it work, then it is probably better to exit the marriage.
The marriage helper site does not advocate prayer and god and the religious stuff. Their advice is not religious based and heavily follows Gottman's research -- evidence based research and not opinions.
Glad to hear about your therapist and EFT.
The Gottman Method you're talking about is here at www.gottman.com which is guided by these guys. They are pro-affirmative consent and pro-LGBT and are still actively researching and getting published. It actually seems like it could be pretty handy.
If you're really interested in the Gottman Method, it might be best to use the resources offered by the actual Gottman Institute. That's my take on it, anyway. Reading through the blog posts on Beam's site there is so much Christian bias in his ideas and writing.
In the next six months or so you will get a brief break in how hard parenting is. One year olds are actually pleasant little beings. I'm that period, you need to find a day when you are feeling good about yourself and your relationship and decide what you really need to do. Is your relationship a positive part of your life and can you make it work.
On the chores front, I would strongly suggest an explicit chore list. Sit together and write down exactly who does what and when. Take pictures of what goes where if you need to. Your wife sounds like she is someone who shows and receives affection through 'tasks' which is a very challenging language to speak for someone who doesn't care much emotionally about chores. As such, the chore list is your dictionary. Make it, and follow it carefully and dutifully. Do not stop following it.
But, to repeat, do not make major life decisions with a less than one year old in the house. You aren't capable of making a well thought out decision. You may be right about the stress, you may be wrong, and raising children as divorced parents is harder than raising children as married parents.
My read is that the thing with the chores isn't really about the chores. Nitpicking like that is classic emotionally abusive behavior - which isn't to say altFather is in a dangerous relationship, necessarily!* People do shitty things when they're chronically unhappy; that's just human. I bring it up because if the chores aren't really the problem, then making a detailed plan just gives the nitpicker more ammunition. I have some personal experience with this.
What you want to do instead is 1) address the underlying unhappiness, and 2) don't reward the nitpicking in the meantime, which is to say, don't engage in the fight she's (possibly subconsciously) picking. I am not qualified to tell anyone how to do that, but a good therapist should be able to help.
*Unless there are more red flags constituting a pattern of abuse, that is.
That said, I'm not sure chores are the issue. At my individual session last night the therapist pointed out a discussion we had during the group session, in particular about a situation in which I did something not to her exact liking and her response. My wife and I had a disagreement about the result of what I didn't do to her liking, but the therapist bypassed that and asked me if I felt her reaction was something I felt was appropriate. It wasn't. I can understand her being upset, but berating me and then finding and nitpicking everything else for the rest of the night doesn't help me feel appreciated. After that I've realized it isn't the chores. Chores need to be done. It's about the reactions (both mine and hers).
As for emotional abuse, I've read about it. I can check off a few boxes when I think about how she treats me (hypercritical, belittling, controlling, I feel like I am walking on eggshells, feel like I am nothing more than a roommate, feel like I need her permission and approval to do anything), but I could probably check off some about how I respond (withdrawing, isolating myself, lost desire for her, not wanting to be around her). I can't really say it is emotional abuse so much as we might just be fed up with one another. She tells me that isn't the case, she tells me that I make her happy... but I just don't feel it?
I think the key thing around controlling behaviour is not whether she is or is not controlling, but whether you feel controlled, and it sounds like you do. That's important! how you feel is important! That's something she can help with, by changing her behaviour, but also something you can help with, by changing yours and/or your expectations. This would probably be worth bringing up with your therapist, potentially in a 1on1. I expect if you brought it up in a group session she would be very defensive about her behaviours. I am saying this because I was the one in my relationship making my partner feel controlled and always had a reason for why my behaviour was ok -- running roughshod over my partners feelings.
Classic controlling behaviours for abuse (isolating from friends, money, physically imposing oneself, etc.) are not the only ways that someone ends up feeling controlled. There's many more subtle ones -- for example, getting upset at any and everything that's wrong and not bothering to hide it from your partner can make them feel controlled, but clearly wouldn't fall under what most people think of a controlling behaviour.
I've seen many people say this. When you say that I need to change my expectations, what is meant by that? I am honest in that I don't understand it, which might be part of the issue.
Changing your expectations here could be something like expecting a fair and reasonable reaction. And when you don't get that, respond by explaining how the reaction you got made you feel and ask why she reacted in that way (rather than being defensive, withdrawing, etc.). Communication might help here.
It might not, also. Sometimes, things just don't work out. Keep up the therapy, it will help in the end (even if it is only to put into focus that the situation is untenable).
So the way I see it, divorce is often a good option for everyone involved. At the very least, couples shouldn't be afraid to discuss it. Is this something we want to seriously consider? If we end up doing it, how will it happen? It's not the only option. Therapy has saved marriages. Temporary separation has been known to save marriages. A good friend of mine had an arrangement with her husband where they were basically roommates and parents but no longer a couple. In their case staying together this way was mostly an economic decision, as neither one of them could have afforded keeping their lovely house on their own. Sleeping in separate bedrooms was justified to the kids with "because dad snores really loudly". Both were allowed to pursue romantic relationships of their own. Doing this seemed to give both of them the emotional breathing room they needed, because a few years later they got back together and are still a happy couple now that the kids are getting ready to move out.
I guess what I'm getting at with this storytime is that sometimes it can be fruitful to look into purely practical solutions. "This relationship isn't working right now, so how can we change our circumstances so that both of us might be happy again?" If you're not great at communicating your feelings, or if talking about feelings seems to lead into going in circles, a more pragmatic approach might help.
Unfortunately, while I've thought about the idea of an Open relationship a bit, it doesn't make sense for me. I've no interest in staying married to one person I am unsatisfied with while developing an emotional and physical relationship with someone else (and it would be both, I don't realistically believe I could keep it "just physical" given I don't feel my emotional needs are being fulfilled, either). Plus, having to hide it, or having to constantly be elsewhere with it instead of my own home doesn't make sense to me, compared to the alternative of being single again and being able to do all of that without feeling I am doing something bad. I know some people can and I don't judge them. I have no issue with Open relationships when two people agree to it and have the details worked out, I just don't think I could be in one.
However, you may not be able to create a better situation for your kids, with your wife, than they would experience if you divorced. Sometimes the best situation is simply unavailable, and sometimes it just takes a lot of effort and dedication to achieve, and knowing which is which seems to be one of the big challenges of marriage and parenthood especially. I don't envy you but I do wish you and your kids the best possible outcome.
Since we're doing storytime a bit, my parents divorced when I was 9, and it was horrible - traumatic, awful, they hated each other, used us as weapons, guilted us, lied, manipulated, and dumped their personal trauma out on the floor for us to try and deal with even though we were children. An emotional nightmare that went on for a solid decade, until I was old enough to assert the independence needed to deal with them. It took until I was over 40 years old to reconcile with my brother.
It was, or appeared, mostly amicable. They got out while they could still be civil, and there were basically no downsides; apart from self-centered teenager stuff like:
"Why do I have to spend my Dad weekend at Dad's house? It's not like I hang out with you on normal weekends. This is such bullshit"
So even if all therapy teaches the two of you is how to be civil, that really seems like the key factor as far as your children are concerned; at least more so than whether or not you live together. As long as you can do that, your kid has a good shot at being a perfectly normal shit head all throughout the mid-2030s.
In light of things, this made me laugh. Thanks for that.
Wife and I had another chat last night. What I learned from last night is that going forward, all of these conversations should be in front of our therapist. I've tried to explain to her that unlike her, this whole being open and trying to communicate and share my emotions is new to me. It's clearly an area I need to improve, and so many times when I try to share, my thoughts aren't complete, and I don't yet have an answer or solution. Maybe that is an excuse, but what it means is that if I try to share with her she immediately wants an answer. I shut down when this happens and so our conversations become an hour of her talking at me, asking me for answers I can't give yet. It honestly pushes me away more.
I'm going to pause sharing more here for the time being. I'm not sure where things are going to end up between us, but after another subtle comment that makes me fear she may try to take our child and limit my interaction if things go south, I don't want to risk any more ammo.
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and shares.
Prior to kids, there's really not that burning need to have this effective, efficient and understood foundation as you can live semi separate lives and still enjoy some together time but kids put more time demands on things. Also believe in a positive result, as if you don't it just won't happen.
Personal Opinion: try some sex stuff, as deprivation does weird things to our brains. I always liked the adage that you should try to avoid fighting when hungry, tired or sexually frustrated as you'll be coming from a bad place physiologically
I told her the same RE: time prior to kids. She asked why I was okay with so much time apart prior to that and now I suddenly want to be together. I tried to explain because prior to children we had the time that I could do the things I enjoy and get that satisfaction, and still had time to spend with her doing things she enjoyed even if I didn't. Now that we have a child, it doesn't feel like we have time for both, so being able to spend time with her and doing things I enjoy is suddenly very important to me.