If you personally kill everyone on the enemy team your team will refuse to push and just wander around doing map things because one of the enemies will respawn in 40 seconds, it's not safe to push.
I'm an old man. My APM ain't what it used to be. There's a reason I don't play competitive StarCraft anymore.
Trust me, my APM in shit like Starcraft was never there. I don't actually like playing multiplayer starcraft. Too stressful and too brutal on me and just no fun.
But I was grinding up TLV during a bonus XP week because getting everyone to 10 (now 15) was the plan. And I'm like, ugh, this is painful. And my hands are fucking sweating. And then I look at my record and I'm on like a fucking 10 game winstreak because TLV (at least then) were kinda quietly broken in how good they were at just generating big advantage for your team. And even my lack of micro can't stop that too much.
Not sure how they perform these days though.
I did have some fun times though. Sending like 2 to the objective to harass while a 3rd runs across the map, caps a mercenary camp and almost destroys a keep and then doing Play It Again and ambushing the guy they send to stop you can be pretty fun. You feel pretty badass.
I'm an old man. My APM ain't what it used to be. There's a reason I don't play competitive StarCraft anymore.
Trust me, my APM in shit like Starcraft was never there. I don't actually like playing multiplayer starcraft. Too stressful and too brutal on me and just no fun.
But I was grinding up TLV during a bonus XP week because getting everyone to 10 (now 15) was the plan. And I'm like, ugh, this is painful. And my hands are fucking sweating. And then I look at my record and I'm on like a fucking 10 game winstreak because TLV (at least then) were kinda quietly broken in how good they were at just generating big advantage for your team. And even my lack of micro can't stop that too much.
Not sure how they perform these days though.
I did have some fun times though. Sending like 2 to the objective to harass while a 3rd runs across the map, caps a mercenary camp and almost destroys a keep and then doing Play It Again and ambushing the guy they send to stop you can be pretty fun. You feel pretty badass.
TLV used to be very OP if you could play them decently, yeah. You could seriously carry a team with a 70+% winrate. They aren't quite as good anymore, though
TLV used to also be able to oneshot squishies if they got near one with the aoe attack, and they also had an immunity button so it was pretty easy to get near anyone.
Also longboat raid was crazy damage. like a super strafe you could cast flamestrike out of, so they were secretly teamfight gods.
Yeah, I sometimes wonder if I'd climb faster in HL if I played more carries.
Focusing on playing support (because no one else will) sometimes feels like you're leaving your fate up to a roll of the dice in Silver to whether you get competent players on your team or not. At least if you're carrying, you know there'll be at least one.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
People are saying that Whitemane will be a Discipline Priest?
People are saying that Whitemane will be a Discipline Priest?
Current-gen Disc Priests deal damage to heal through a passive called Atonement. The way it specifically works is that Power Word: Shield, Power Word: Radiance and Shadowmend all apply Atonement on your targets for 15 seconds, and then spell damage you deal heals all targets affected by Atonement for 60% of the damage you dealt. It's legitimately good and fun, and it feels like a nice balance between Holy (straight healing) and Shadow (straight damage). I can definitely see Whitemane having access to any or all of the WoW Priest specs.
literally every statistic says no he is not outside of hgc/extremely high coordination play.
He enables carries, so he obviously gains more value as the skill of your carries increase. You can argue that he's not worth picking until you're matched up with allies who can glean maximum value from his kit, but even then, you wouldn't really be arguing that Tassadar was bad so much as you'd be saying your teammates are bad.
I mean, objectively, he's picked or banned in over half of all pro matches with like a 54% win rate there, so he obviously isn't bad. In fact, the data would seem to indicate he's actually very good.
literally every statistic says no he is not outside of hgc/extremely high coordination play.
He enables carries, so he obviously gains more value as the skill of your carries increase. You can argue that he's not worth picking until you're matched up with allies who can glean maximum value from his kit, but even then, you wouldn't really be arguing that Tassadar was bad so much as you'd be saying your teammates are bad.
I mean, objectively, he's picked or banned in over half of all pro matches with like a 54% win rate there, so he obviously isn't bad. In fact, the data would seem to indicate he's actually very good.
That's not objective, that's the subjective view of someone only paying attention to pro-level play rather than the game at large
You can quote the win rate data from Hotslogs all day, but Medivh and Hanzo also have bottom-of-the-barrell win rates and they're Omega-level God-tier heroes in the right hands, so I don't know how much stock you can really invest in everything you read there. The data from high-level play clearly indicates that Tassadar is not a dead hero; there's honestly just no possible way to refute that fact and I'm amazed we so often have to have this discussion.
Yes if you match into a gm game with krohen pick Tass.
If you’re playing at plat/diamond or worse, run like hell.
I think it’s obvious that when I say Tass is bad, I mean at this level Tass is bad. Ktz is a fucking blight at this level but he’s beyond useless in hgc. Does that mean he suddenly isn’t a blight? Of course not. HGC performance is interesting to see theoretical performance limits of a hero in a coordinated environment, but it’s not super relevant to how I play the game.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited July 2018
It's also worth noting that "dead" is probably closer to "nobody plays them" than "they're ""objectively"" bad", and I'd be genuinely surprised if Tass' pickrate across the game puts him out of the bottom 15.
the only heroes lower than tass in hl in popularity are chogall, which lol solo queue, probe, tlv, chen, and rexxar.
and tassadar is 10% winrate lower than all of them.
hanzo and tassadar
saying "but, what if thousands of games are wrong" isn't really useful. statistically, these heroes are very bad outside of the very best players playing them. as i am not one of those players, i refer to tassadar as a dead hero.
I never played a lot of Azmo, but played against him quite a bit. It was never fun at all, either in QM or HL, do go against him. All he did was split push all game and occasionally sacrifice himself to drop his Ult on a Keep while perma-lasering it. Never felt good. Maybe it was fun for the Azmo player or something.
Not to shit all over Azmo though. You can get the same experience with Zag, Murky, and Gaz.
Old Azmodan had laser/demon army build that was degenerate as fuck and needed to be killed with fire, yeah.
the only heroes lower than tass in hl in popularity are chogall, which lol solo queue, probe, tlv, chen, and rexxar.
and tassadar is 10% winrate lower than all of them.
hanzo and tassadar
saying "but, what if thousands of games are wrong" isn't really useful. statistically, these heroes are very bad outside of the very best players playing them. as i am not one of those players, i refer to tassadar as a dead hero.
It would be more accurate to say Tassadar is in a really bad place because he's super binary. He's either "burn it with fire, don't get it near me, too good" in very high level play or "burn it with fire, don't get it near me, so shit" at like every other level.
The basic issue being that what he does well is enable hypercarries and he does that super well and outside that he's just not good at all I think. So you've either got a hypercarry or you don't. And the majority of games don't.
literally every statistic says no he is not outside of hgc/extremely high coordination play.
He enables carries, so he obviously gains more value as the skill of your carries increase. You can argue that he's not worth picking until you're matched up with allies who can glean maximum value from his kit, but even then, you wouldn't really be arguing that Tassadar was bad so much as you'd be saying your teammates are bad.
I mean, objectively, he's picked or banned in over half of all pro matches with like a 54% win rate there, so he obviously isn't bad. In fact, the data would seem to indicate he's actually very good.
That's not objective, that's the subjective view of someone only paying attention to pro-level play rather than the game at large
I agree with your premise, but you can’t just change the meaning of words like this :P
literally every statistic says no he is not outside of hgc/extremely high coordination play.
He enables carries, so he obviously gains more value as the skill of your carries increase. You can argue that he's not worth picking until you're matched up with allies who can glean maximum value from his kit, but even then, you wouldn't really be arguing that Tassadar was bad so much as you'd be saying your teammates are bad.
I mean, objectively, he's picked or banned in over half of all pro matches with like a 54% win rate there, so he obviously isn't bad. In fact, the data would seem to indicate he's actually very good.
That's not objective, that's the subjective view of someone only paying attention to pro-level play rather than the game at large
I agree with your premise, but you can’t just change the meaning of words like this :P
I can and I will.
Also the word "objective" has already lost all meaning in online discourse.
Step one: let's play a qm. Click button
Step two: my stomach is rumbling, i wonder if i should cancel the searc... Too late for that we are in a game loading screen
Step three: Interesting match up clown fiesta style i wonder who.. rumble rumble rumble oh oh.
Step four: we got two kills to their one in the opening stupidity in the middle and people are spreading out to soak, annnnnd I'm alt f4ing the game and running to the bathroom.
Good luck to my team, I'll be here for a while.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The best way for me to help break a @finnith losing streak is to play Medivh in QM.
I highly recommend you do not watch my VODs from tonight. Unless you like watching awful play followed by me trying to balance a 12-week old on my lap while main Tanking Diablo. It...isn't pretty.
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the only heroes lower than tass in hl in popularity are chogall, which lol solo queue, probe, tlv, chen, and rexxar.
and tassadar is 10% winrate lower than all of them.
hanzo and tassadar
saying "but, what if thousands of games are wrong" isn't really useful. statistically, these heroes are very bad outside of the very best players playing them. as i am not one of those players, i refer to tassadar as a dead hero.
I'm obviously in the same boat as I have no way to really utilize Tassadar (whether as the hero OR as the carry?). And a lot of people are in that same boat who try and work with him (or then decide not to).
That being said, I get what Ducks is getting at. Like, 40% WR is bad. But it's also not 0. It's above 30. He's obviously a niche hero and only fits into some setups but I have to agree he obviously still has some fits or he wouldn't even be as high as he is. And yes, obviously 40% is bad (I looked over the past 4 weeks at Master/Diamond/Plat for a wider range and it's 43% but still close). Obviously it's still hard to weigh these games as it's still a small pick percentage but again, even 40% means SOMETHING is working. Of course it could be the team carrying the pick, sure.
But if you look over the last 4 weeks, look at even the Master, Diamond, Plat league for the wider range, his highest WR hero to fight against? Kel'thuzad. At 65% WR against that anti fun ball. Even if you take into account bad KTZs, that's still a lot. Between some extra shields for anyone chained, the ability to NOPE out of being chained himself once every 30 seconds, or the ability to enable a diver (Tracer/Valla/whatever) to go after him, I get it.
Really I think you both are discussing past one another and that you're both right. He's garbage tier for you because nothing you play/the teams you're with can't help Tassadar do work. And Ducks is right that aside from HGC, he's obviously not garbage or his WR would be even lower than it is for non hgc levels of play and that it takes the right comp/players to make him work which does explain being 40% over something higher. I also think Tassadar comps probably take some time to iron out and get the feel for (both Tass and his carry working together to get on the same page). It's got to be frustrating to get to that level of unison, however, as you're eating losses as you're practicing.
for something completely different: i have a long road trip in the very near future. it has been literally years since i have listened to any heroes related podcasts just for lack of interest. however given the length of this trip i am stockpiling audiobooks, podcasts, and music. anyone have good ones and can give a brief synopsis of their usual topics (focus on the pro scene, hypothetical hero concepts, meta discussions, or whatever). my wife will get sick of it, but if she is gonna make me drive i'm not listening to fucking harry potter for the ten trillionth time.
You could try 'Townhall Heroes' A podcast group made up of some HotS streamers and casters, some times features James 'Bakery' Baker the former Dignitas player. They discuss the current meta, balance changers reworks, the HGC etc.
You could try 'Townhall Heroes' A podcast group made up of some HotS streamers and casters, some times features James 'Bakery' Baker the former Dignitas player. They discuss the current meta, balance changers reworks, the HGC etc.
that's one of the ones i used to be aware of so good to know they still exist. i forget the name of the one from the angry chicken team but that was the other one i used to listen to years ago.
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Trust me, my APM in shit like Starcraft was never there. I don't actually like playing multiplayer starcraft. Too stressful and too brutal on me and just no fun.
But I was grinding up TLV during a bonus XP week because getting everyone to 10 (now 15) was the plan. And I'm like, ugh, this is painful. And my hands are fucking sweating. And then I look at my record and I'm on like a fucking 10 game winstreak because TLV (at least then) were kinda quietly broken in how good they were at just generating big advantage for your team. And even my lack of micro can't stop that too much.
Not sure how they perform these days though.
I did have some fun times though. Sending like 2 to the objective to harass while a 3rd runs across the map, caps a mercenary camp and almost destroys a keep and then doing Play It Again and ambushing the guy they send to stop you can be pretty fun. You feel pretty badass.
Play a bunch of Starcraft
TLV used to be very OP if you could play them decently, yeah. You could seriously carry a team with a 70+% winrate. They aren't quite as good anymore, though
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Also longboat raid was crazy damage. like a super strafe you could cast flamestrike out of, so they were secretly teamfight gods.
Focusing on playing support (because no one else will) sometimes feels like you're leaving your fate up to a roll of the dice in Silver to whether you get competent players on your team or not. At least if you're carrying, you know there'll be at least one.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
that said, it'll be shown in less than 24 hours, so we need just sip our milk and wait
Current-gen Disc Priests deal damage to heal through a passive called Atonement. The way it specifically works is that Power Word: Shield, Power Word: Radiance and Shadowmend all apply Atonement on your targets for 15 seconds, and then spell damage you deal heals all targets affected by Atonement for 60% of the damage you dealt. It's legitimately good and fun, and it feels like a nice balance between Holy (straight healing) and Shadow (straight damage). I can definitely see Whitemane having access to any or all of the WoW Priest specs.
pls to not launch dead characters
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I mean if you want anecdotes I haven't been happy about having a Tass on my team in roughly two years
He enables carries, so he obviously gains more value as the skill of your carries increase. You can argue that he's not worth picking until you're matched up with allies who can glean maximum value from his kit, but even then, you wouldn't really be arguing that Tassadar was bad so much as you'd be saying your teammates are bad.
I mean, objectively, he's picked or banned in over half of all pro matches with like a 54% win rate there, so he obviously isn't bad. In fact, the data would seem to indicate he's actually very good.
That's not objective, that's the subjective view of someone only paying attention to pro-level play rather than the game at large
He very clearly isn't.
You can quote the win rate data from Hotslogs all day, but Medivh and Hanzo also have bottom-of-the-barrell win rates and they're Omega-level God-tier heroes in the right hands, so I don't know how much stock you can really invest in everything you read there. The data from high-level play clearly indicates that Tassadar is not a dead hero; there's honestly just no possible way to refute that fact and I'm amazed we so often have to have this discussion.
If you’re playing at plat/diamond or worse, run like hell.
I think it’s obvious that when I say Tass is bad, I mean at this level Tass is bad. Ktz is a fucking blight at this level but he’s beyond useless in hgc. Does that mean he suddenly isn’t a blight? Of course not. HGC performance is interesting to see theoretical performance limits of a hero in a coordinated environment, but it’s not super relevant to how I play the game.
and tassadar is 10% winrate lower than all of them.
hanzo and tassadar
saying "but, what if thousands of games are wrong" isn't really useful. statistically, these heroes are very bad outside of the very best players playing them. as i am not one of those players, i refer to tassadar as a dead hero.
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Old Azmodan had laser/demon army build that was degenerate as fuck and needed to be killed with fire, yeah.
It would be more accurate to say Tassadar is in a really bad place because he's super binary. He's either "burn it with fire, don't get it near me, too good" in very high level play or "burn it with fire, don't get it near me, so shit" at like every other level.
The basic issue being that what he does well is enable hypercarries and he does that super well and outside that he's just not good at all I think. So you've either got a hypercarry or you don't. And the majority of games don't.
Bad design basically.
I agree with your premise, but you can’t just change the meaning of words like this :P
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I can and I will.
Also the word "objective" has already lost all meaning in online discourse.
I'm gonna stream some Silver League HL matches as well! Silver unite!
Edit: OK, real life stepped in. Going to retry again. Jump on in!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Step two: my stomach is rumbling, i wonder if i should cancel the searc... Too late for that we are in a game loading screen
Step three: Interesting match up clown fiesta style i wonder who.. rumble rumble rumble oh oh.
Step four: we got two kills to their one in the opening stupidity in the middle and people are spreading out to soak, annnnnd I'm alt f4ing the game and running to the bathroom.
Good luck to my team, I'll be here for a while.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Like... wow did they oversexualize her in the image I saw on the Blizzard launcher last night. She's like a dominatrix sitting there in that throne.
I'm obviously in the same boat as I have no way to really utilize Tassadar (whether as the hero OR as the carry?). And a lot of people are in that same boat who try and work with him (or then decide not to).
That being said, I get what Ducks is getting at. Like, 40% WR is bad. But it's also not 0. It's above 30. He's obviously a niche hero and only fits into some setups but I have to agree he obviously still has some fits or he wouldn't even be as high as he is. And yes, obviously 40% is bad (I looked over the past 4 weeks at Master/Diamond/Plat for a wider range and it's 43% but still close). Obviously it's still hard to weigh these games as it's still a small pick percentage but again, even 40% means SOMETHING is working. Of course it could be the team carrying the pick, sure.
But if you look over the last 4 weeks, look at even the Master, Diamond, Plat league for the wider range, his highest WR hero to fight against? Kel'thuzad. At 65% WR against that anti fun ball. Even if you take into account bad KTZs, that's still a lot. Between some extra shields for anyone chained, the ability to NOPE out of being chained himself once every 30 seconds, or the ability to enable a diver (Tracer/Valla/whatever) to go after him, I get it.
Really I think you both are discussing past one another and that you're both right. He's garbage tier for you because nothing you play/the teams you're with can't help Tassadar do work. And Ducks is right that aside from HGC, he's obviously not garbage or his WR would be even lower than it is for non hgc levels of play and that it takes the right comp/players to make him work which does explain being 40% over something higher. I also think Tassadar comps probably take some time to iron out and get the feel for (both Tass and his carry working together to get on the same page). It's got to be frustrating to get to that level of unison, however, as you're eating losses as you're practicing.
Just my hot take on it, anyway.
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
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that's one of the ones i used to be aware of so good to know they still exist. i forget the name of the one from the angry chicken team but that was the other one i used to listen to years ago.
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
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