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Update 10/12: I need legal advice advice
Drez
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Registered User regular
So, some of you accurately predicted last year that I would eventually find myself in my current situation. Long story short, my roommate is a bad person and I want him out of my apartment forever. But the situation is confusing for a variety of reasons. I won't get into them here because I'm not trying to rehash or solve anything in this thread, but I think I need to consult a lawyer or legal expert to figure out the right path forward.
I guess I'd need a tenancy/residency lawyer (is that what they are called) that has expertise in New Jersey laws. Any idea the best way to go about finding one and how much I might need to pay? I'm looking to talk to someone about what my options are - there probably will not be any need to sue anyone (at least I hope not) but since my relationship with this particular person has deteriorated and I still need to communicate with him, I need to know the best way that will protect me legally to do so. For example, I emailed him twice (after a blowup) requesting his share of the utilities bill. He has declined to pay or communicate back in any way. It was due to me 24 days ago. After the second reminder, I have not responded. And there are other topics, particularly what me and my good roommate can do to get the guy out when our lease renewal comes up.
Any advice on how to find the right lawyer or legal expert, or what I should do to get the answers I need? And how much I should expect to pay?
edit: One other thing. My good roommate (who is with me 100% on all of this) is suggesting that we talk to either the leasing or management office as a first step. Any thoughts on that? My initial reaction was "yes, sure, that's a good idea," but I also feel that the building isn't our friend either and would just be looking out for themselves. If our perception and goals align with the building's, then fine, but I think it's better to talk to some sort of legal expert before we approach the building at all.
I guess I'd need a tenancy/residency lawyer (is that what they are called) that has expertise in New Jersey laws. Any idea the best way to go about finding one and how much I might need to pay? I'm looking to talk to someone about what my options are - there probably will not be any need to sue anyone (at least I hope not) but since my relationship with this particular person has deteriorated and I still need to communicate with him, I need to know the best way that will protect me legally to do so. For example, I emailed him twice (after a blowup) requesting his share of the utilities bill. He has declined to pay or communicate back in any way. It was due to me 24 days ago. After the second reminder, I have not responded. And there are other topics, particularly what me and my good roommate can do to get the guy out when our lease renewal comes up.
Any advice on how to find the right lawyer or legal expert, or what I should do to get the answers I need? And how much I should expect to pay?
edit: One other thing. My good roommate (who is with me 100% on all of this) is suggesting that we talk to either the leasing or management office as a first step. Any thoughts on that? My initial reaction was "yes, sure, that's a good idea," but I also feel that the building isn't our friend either and would just be looking out for themselves. If our perception and goals align with the building's, then fine, but I think it's better to talk to some sort of legal expert before we approach the building at all.
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As an occupant. Not a tenant. But has been paying his share of the rent consistently to the building. And our lease is up in November. That's it in a nutshell - we both want him out, but we're not sure if he's a de facto tenant of ours, of the building's, or what his legal status actually is. My roommate and I don't have any written agreement with him unfortunately which I think hurts us more than it helps us.
I would be fine with contacting the building and working with them but periodically remind yourself that their goals and objectives are not your goals and objectives. They want good tenants and you and roommate are one by what we know. Unless bad roommate seriously could contend to just take over the lease alone I don't see why they'd want to work with him over you two.
That's what I'm hoping.
Our nuclear option is to just not renew the lease at all. We don't want that. We like this apartment and would rather bring in a better third roommate, at least for one more year. But at the end of the day, nothing is compelling us to renew the lease with him attached, at least I don't think there would be.
I just want to make sure, absent of any written agreement between him and us, that I don't miss any notification dates. We're still 90+ days before the current lease expires, and I doubt that much notice would be required, but I want to make sure we don't screw ourselves out of getting him out peacefully if that's possible.
Not that it will be peaceful anyway. In the heat of anger, I already communicated (verbally) that I want him out and he already threatened to both me and the other roommate to fight it tooth and nail. Not my finest moment, but since then (that was nearly a month ago now) we have ceased all communication except my emails regarding the utilities he has failed to pay.
That's the other thing that I would want to discuss with a lawyer. I believe the bad roommate is under the impression that the security deposit is under my name; he doesn't have a separate security deposit account with the building. So my intention - if bad roommate doesn't reimburse me for the utilities - is to deduct it from his security deposit once he leaves. And I want to know the best way to communicate that to protect myself. (I believe I also have the option of removing his access to the internet, since that isn't legally considered a "utility" and I am under no obligation to provide that for him. Of course, that is extremely petty, and I would not be entitled to reclaim that cost if I did that, but it's something I wanted to run by a lawyer.)
So you think I should talk to the building first? Just to see if they can provide advice? That wouldn't necessarily screw me up later; I can retain a lawyer later if need be, I guess? If so, should I talk to leasing or building management? I guess the former first?
No. Get a lawyer first. Again, the building management is not your friend here - they just have interests that line up with yours. You need an advocate who is bound to your interests first and foremost - and that means getting a lawyer.
My main worry with your room mate both not paying and apparently not caring (willing to fight tooth and nail) is any action you take against him is going to be more of a nightmare than just waiting it out and moving when your lease is up.
You or your landlord is going to need to evict him, which is a process that would take the better part of 90 days at least.
Meanwhile he is mad and lives in your house. A lot of potential to have stuff go missing, get mysteriously broken. For areas to get trashed in an attempt to fuck your security deposit.
If you're willing to put up with that, then call a lawyer.
If you're not, tell him now you're not planning on renewing because he doesn't pay*. Then start looking for a new place with you good roommate.
*maybe he'll actually pay up in an attempt to keep you around... if he does, take the money but then leave anyway
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Any idea how much that may run me?
To be clear: He IS paying rent, but he is not reimbursing me for the utilities. But that’s not even the main reason I want him out.
Lease is up at the end of November, so closer to 95 days.
if this person is not a signatory to the rental agreement I assume you're subletting, which means you'll need to evict this person. That will entail giving 30 or 60 days notice (dunno what it is in NJ) and possibly taking other steps.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Zero dollars?
Unless NJ is substantially different, a consult should be free. Start with the bar association or yellow pages, call a few and ask for estimates, and you can ask them for referrals as well.
Edit: To be clear, you don't need to retain a lawyer before figuring out your next steps; your first step is to solicit their opinion as to what those steps would even be.
All three of us lived in this apartment before our current lease. I was there for nearly two years prior. Good roommate was there even longer. Bad roommate was there 3-5 months prior. Our previous landlord was shady and - long story short - we ended up doing a lease takeover with his eventual agreement; however, that was a hard battle.
Anyway, no issues with bad roommate up to that point.
When we came to apply for the apartment (we still had to put an application because it was not actually a takeover, it was a new lease, but we agreed to waive the typical security deposit walkthrough and just assumed any liability under the new lease).
Anyway, bad roommate failed his credit check. He explained that he was making a lot of money but because he had moved around a lot to different states or whatever his credit had suffered or whatever. Honestly, it didn’t register as much of a red flag because up to that point he was totally cool and was paying his rent to the shady landlord consistently. He was a contractor at the time but his job seemed pretty solid regardless. In fact he eventually got hired as a permanent employee. He’s currently unemployed, having been laid off some months ago “with severance.”
Anyway, the point I’m making here is that we weren’t concerned about bad roommate. Good roommate and I signed the lease and bad roommate made sure he was listed as an occupant on the lease documents.
Unfortunately, we didn’t really make much of an agreement. I think all three of us were naive and just regarded him as a third tenant. He pays his portion of the rent to the building directly through a service called ClickPay. He has said multiple times that he doesn’t feel he has any particular responsibility to us, stating (as open questions) “do I pay you, or do I pay the building directly?”
I don’t want to get into the whole thing again here, but I really don’t know what his status is. My gut says it’s a de facto sublet. The building probably sees it that way, too, but I don’t know. Either he doesn’t or is playing ignorant on the matter because he thinks that gives him stronger rights.
And regardless of what the legal status of our relationship is, how can we get him out with the least headache and heartache? And preferably without good roommate and I having to vacate.
Either way, I need a lawyer to sort these questions out for me.
If B Roommate is residing in the apartment and paying rent to an entity, he is considered a tenant. If he pays rent to you, I believe he would be considered a sublet. If he pays rent to your landlord, then he would not be a sublet and any legal action against him would have to be undertaken by your landlord.
Absent a written lease signed with his name, he would be subject to a month-to-month tenancy, which could be terminated with one months' notice. Failure to vacate at the end of that notice would necessitate eviction proceedings.
While his tenancy could be terminated without affecting yours, that will require your landlord to act.
As noted above, do not take any of this as concrete advice, and seek legal counsel before taking any action
My Steam
But:
He's paying the rent and you're just getting stiffed on utilities? Have I got that right? He's not endangering your lease by trashing the place or not paying rent?
If the only thing at issue monetarily here is him not paying a share of utilities to you, hiring a lawyer will not be worth it.
Maybe try to get a free consult to start. But I wouldn't pay a lawyer over this type of thing. See if you can get yourself and good roommate on a lease without him when your current one is up.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Correct on the money front. But I have no idea how to get him out of the apartment and off the lease as an occupant (me and good roommate are tenants, he is listed as an occupant but may be a de facto tenant, legally. I don’t know.). That’s really why I want to consult a legal expert on this.
The money stuff is additional stress but I can deal with that later. I’m solely concerned with getting him out of my life completely. I figure the lease expiration is the ideal time for that, since it’s close, but I don’t know what I’m required to do to make that happen. If the lease is expiring, what kind of notice am I required to give and when, etc.?
Am I correct it's just you and good roommate? Bad roommate did not sign the lease?
Bad roommate failed his credit check so he could not sign the lease as a tenant. So only good roommate and I are signed tenants on the lease.
Bad roommate is named on the lease we signed as an occupant.
The three of us split payment and pay our portion through a service called ClickPay. So one could argue that he pays the building directly or you could argue that he doesn’t, since ClickPay more or less acts as an intermediary. I think all the building sees is whether the entire payment was received or not. They don’t care who pays what amount.
That's my take anyway, which is casual non legal advice. To force him to leave before the lease is up is going to be pretty hard, I'd predict.
Thanks.
Lease is up Nov 30 - not looking to try and get him out before then - I can endure another ~90 days.
Thanks, I’ll take a look at that, too
edit: I don't think ceding the place to him is even an option. He failed his credit check when we originally signed the lease, he's currently unemployed, and his portion of the rent payment was late numerous times and bounced numerous times as well. The building isn't going to re-sign with only him, or at least it is unlikely. If it comes to moving out, either only he moves our or all three of us move out (because I will not re-sign the lease with him even remotely attached).
Even though he's not on the lease, he's still probably a tenant for legal purposes. Residency, not payment, is the litmus. Even if you you renew the lease, you'll probably need to serve him with true legal notice that he has to leave (i.e. eviction). I have NO IDEA how that plays out with your existing roommate. Another thing to consider, is that your landlord probably doesn't give a shit. You and roommate are both on the lease, and you'll both be dinged if rent payments are made.
What does your lease say about the number of occupants allowed in the rental? If it's less than three, you MIGHT be able to make the point that having this person breaches the lease, but all the same the outcome will probably be that both your roommate AND you are in breach.
IMO, By far the best way out of this is to suck it up for three more months and then move out. Even if you do begin the eviction process, it'll take months to get done.
Edit:
Some ideas to get him to move out:
Your best bet is to either move out at the end of the lease or to offer something in return for the roommate moving out. For example you might tally up exactly what the roommate owes and the write a letter that says basically “we will not be renewing this lease with you, if you agree to move out and let us take over the lease I will forgive the $XXX that you owe me for utilities. Otherwise we will be moving out and I will be persuing the debt in small claims court.”
Also I’m not sure what the rules are for personal contracts, but if he agrees I would get it in wiritng, with signatures, and witnessed by a third party or whatever else is necessary for a contract.
Also be prepared for him to not pay any utilities until he moves out.
Long story short, we (good roommate and I) still don't know what the fuck to do. We spoke to three lawyers. We now have one on retainer. And even he is not sure exactly what we can do.
The situation is extremely complex.
We always figured that our nuclear option is to just leave at the end of the lease. Unfortunately, even that is not a clean option. Why? Because the building can still issue an eviction against us if the bad roommate squats after the termination of the lease. Which is what we fully expect him to do. Even though he doesn't have a lease with us and technically doesn't have a lease with the building, even if we indicate we do not want to renew AND we vacate the premises by the end of lease, if he stays they can issue an eviction against us.
We don't want that on our credit record but we literally may not have any legal way to get him out.
I am a mixture of angry and just extremely upset at the whole system. And other than bad roommate, I largely blame myself for my naivety and for trusting this stupid asshole 2 years ago.
I gave proper notice and gave them my keys. They evicted me afterwards because they can put a bunch of money into the judgement for collection fees. It was largely bullshit but it effected my credit, luckily I got a place before hand and just stuck it out.
[edit]
This isn't a thing I recommend lightly, but the fastest way to make a person change their behavior is to make their life so uncomfortable it's easier to do what you want. I've done it before with an absolutely horrible roommate and it worked beautifully. (I moved out because Roommate made the apartment unsafe for me to live in, Roommate tried to stick me with 1/2 the rent by dragging her feet on getting a subletter. I then made it very clear I could just let my mom- who Roommate hated- drop by the apartment alone whenever I wanted. Roommate found a subletter almost immediately.)
You guys have lived together long enough for you to know how to really make this guy sad without crossing any legal/moral lines. Make it clear you're willing to do that as long as he keeps fucking you over. Then offer him a choice. You continue to act as you have been (making his life super uncomfortable,) and take him to small claims court over the cost of utilities. Or he can prove he's moved out & turned in his keys before the lease ends. His decision. (Obviously, modify this to be most effective for your particular roommate. If you think he'd respond to bribery, maybe say you'll give him $X after he proves he's fully moved out.)
Since you live with this guy, you need to be EXTRA careful if you go this route. (Document as much as possible, move valuables & important documents somewhere safe, find temporary alternate housing for any pets, triple-check laws before you do anything, that kind of thing.) But it sounds like this is gonna be a fight no matter what, so you might want to cover all your bases anyway.
I think the first salvo is Monday, actually. He stopped paying utilities which has been a colloquial catch all for electricity+cable. So on Monday I’m having Verizon upgrade and rewire us so he cannot access cable anymore. It’s illegal for me to disable his access to electricity but I sure as fuck don’t need to pay for his internet access.
I'm not advising you vacate, but perhaps move your
non essentials to a friend's garage or rent a storage unit. I wouldn't bother informing squattie. Just get your possessions into a safe location if you fear retaliation because the guy sounds like a shithead. If you guys split the cost of a storage unit, it won't be very expensive.
If you ride out the lease and then leave, I don't know how the owners can evict you. They probably can't but that won't stop them from trying. Property managers are pretty notorious for being ignorant of how rental laws actually work.
I think it's really strange you can pay the penalty for breaking the lease, move out and then still be on the hook.
Normally I'd never suggest doing something other than your lawyer's recommendation, but you may just have to hope for a helpful judge.
They'll file the eviction against Drez and good roommate because they're the tenants on the lease. Doesn't matter is nightmare roommate is the only one still there and occupying it, that makes the lease still active and Drez ultimately liable. Which sure does blow.