I just don’t truck with the idea that anyone is obligated to speak only positive things about someone who’s died. In the presence of McCain’s family I’d absolutely bite my tongue specifically for the sake of the mourning relatives. But in a public forum to discuss matters? No. It only encourages the idea tha it’s okay to do terrible things so long as you’re “civil” about it.
From my perspective, I said plenty about how much i disagreed with him when he was alive. Voted against him too.
But, now that he is dead, i dont see the point in putting him on blast. There are alive people I can do that towards. People that are actively doing things i disagree with.
It just seems.....i don't know....less classy to continue to gripe about someone who is dead this shortly after they died.
In a few years when his record is more a data point than an immediate reflection on the man? Sure. Go for it.
Now it just feels....not right.
Not 100% sure why.
Reverence for the dead has, for some folks, taken a back seat to using a man's final moment in the public eye to advance their political position.
That's at least part of what makes it feel not right to me.
Death improves no man. Someone who's a shitbird while they are alive is not suddenly a better person after they die.
The dead deserve no reverence the living weren't getting already.
Dead people get some reverence. It's less respecting the person and more respecting death.
That doesn't even make sense. Death doesn't need any respect.
The only difference between a man before he's dead and after is the living man could still change. Once they dead, they were what they were and we should treat them as such.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. This has been the status quo between the parties longer than you or I have been alive. Expect to see this done when Obama, Hillary or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
I just don’t truck with the idea that anyone is obligated to speak only positive things about someone who’s died. In the presence of McCain’s family I’d absolutely bite my tongue specifically for the sake of the mourning relatives. But in a public forum to discuss matters? No. It only encourages the idea tha it’s okay to do terrible things so long as you’re “civil” about it.
From my perspective, I said plenty about how much i disagreed with him when he was alive. Voted against him too.
But, now that he is dead, i dont see the point in putting him on blast. There are alive people I can do that towards. People that are actively doing things i disagree with.
It just seems.....i don't know....less classy to continue to gripe about someone who is dead this shortly after they died.
In a few years when his record is more a data point than an immediate reflection on the man? Sure. Go for it.
Now it just feels....not right.
Not 100% sure why.
Reverence for the dead has, for some folks, taken a back seat to using a man's final moment in the public eye to advance their political position.
That's at least part of what makes it feel not right to me.
Death improves no man. Someone who's a shitbird while they are alive is not suddenly a better person after they die.
The dead deserve no reverence the living weren't getting already.
Dead people get some reverence. It's less respecting the person and more respecting death.
That doesn't even make sense. Death doesn't need any respect.
The only difference between a man before he's dead and after is the living man could still change. Once they dead, they were what they were and we should treat them as such.
I know, it doesn't make sense. Yet, you'd be less eager to protest any individual's funeral over their book signing. You would wish bad things to happen to your enemies, but wishing they were dead feels like you're giving up a part of your own soul. Am I right? It's a cultural thing ingrained in our genetics.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. Expect to see this done when Obama or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. Expect to see this done when Obama or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
There is nothing civil about McCain's history of racism and bigotry even when he used nice words to express it. Some of us value not being those things over being a POW.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
Trump also should theoretically agree with most of McCain's positions, and the things they disagree on mostly involve McCain not loving torture. Despite that, he can't even say it would have been better if McCain had won the 2008 presidential election.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. Expect to see this done when Obama or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
There is nothing civil about McCain's history of racism and bigotry even when he used nice words to express it. Some of us value not being those things over being a POW.
If thats all that matters to you about a person I’m certain you have many deaths to celebrate day by day. But to me this is very much a “let he that is without sin” situation. When I die I don’t want someone to take all the shitty pieces of my life and rant about what an asshole I was. Neither would most people, or their loved ones. It costs me absolutely nothing to respect what I can respect about a man or woman in the wake of their death, or failing that to say nothing at all. If we can’t manage that small amount of decency, then hell. I don’t know what to say.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. Expect to see this done when Obama or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
There is nothing civil about McCain's history of racism and bigotry even when he used nice words to express it. Some of us value not being those things over being a POW.
If thats all that matters to you about a person I’m certain you have many deaths to celebrate day by day. But to me this is very much a “let he that is without sin” situation. When I die I don’t want someone to take all the shitty pieces of my life and rant about what an asshole I was. Neither would most people, or their loved ones. It costs me absolutely nothing to respect what I can respect about a man or woman in the wake of their death, or failing that to say nothing at all. If we can’t manage that small amount of decency, then hell. I don’t know what to say.
I don't celebrate when it happens. I regret they couldn't be a better person. If I end up as horrible a person as McCain people should say I am. I do my best every day to not advocate the horrible things McCain did.
McCain couldn't manage the small amount of decency to treat gay people as equals. As far as I'm concerned he's not deserving of me lauding him as a True American Hero™. He was an old man who clung to outdated beliefs and refused to let go until it was politically inconvenient. You may not care about that as much as him dying but I do. I do not owe bigots respect no matter how much you "respect" them.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
It'd be great if you'd apply this same idea to people like McCain. You're far more concerned about people criticizing a documented racist than the racist who did racist things.
I'd say a far better ideal to strive for is to admit when someone is not a good, laudable person based on what they've done.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
It'd be great if you'd apply this same idea to people like McCain. You're far more concerned about people criticizing a documented racist than the racist who did racist things.
I'd say a far better ideal to strive for is to admit when someone is not a good, laudable person based on what they've done.
No one's saying you can't bash on Republicans anymore. And no one is saying you have to laud anyone as a True American Hero. Merely, that death is usually a time for what respect you can find, and if you can find none then take a moment of silence. We all die in the end.
One of the things that infuriates me is comments about how they may have disagreed with his politics but X as though disagreeing on politics was equivalent to disagreeing about which sports team to support.
We're not supposed to be at war with ourselves, hating and despising opposing political parties and all those within them. That is an abnormal and unhealthy state of affairs and not one the country can bear indefinitely. I won't begrudge anyone their own breaking point where that becomes unimportant to them, but likewise I respect those who attempt to maintain some level of understanding or civility for their political opponents.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. Expect to see this done when Obama or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
There is nothing civil about McCain's history of racism and bigotry even when he used nice words to express it. Some of us value not being those things over being a POW.
If thats all that matters to you about a person I’m certain you have many deaths to celebrate day by day. But to me this is very much a “let he that is without sin” situation. When I die I don’t want someone to take all the shitty pieces of my life and rant about what an asshole I was. Neither would most people, or their loved ones. It costs me absolutely nothing to respect what I can respect about a man or woman in the wake of their death, or failing that to say nothing at all. If we can’t manage that small amount of decency, then hell. I don’t know what to say.
I don't celebrate when it happens. I regret they couldn't be a better person. If I end up as horrible a person as McCain people should say I am. I do my best every day to not advocate the horrible things McCain did.
McCain couldn't manage the small amount of decency to treat gay people as equals. As far as I'm concerned he's not deserving of me lauding him as a True American Hero™. He was an old man who clung to outdated beliefs and refused to let go until it was politically inconvenient. You may not care about that as much as him dying but I do. I do not owe bigots respect no matter how much you "respect" them.
We will all eventually be old people clinging to outdated beliefs. History supports this with alarming regularity. I'll go out on a limb and say that by today's standards most people who lived were bigots, racists, sexists, or what have yous. And yet many of them are still worthy of respect for what they did, what they discovered, suffered or accomplished. People are not simply an amalgamation of their worst attributes or beliefs. That's an awful way to view humanity as a whole and I simply don't share it with you.
Just so we're clear then, everyone who has ever died, in all of history, you do not criticize. Not one? Literally every person that has ever died you refuse to say a critical word about?
McCain did not live in the past. He lived in modern times. Robert Byrd of all people managed to be a better person who renounced his past and actually followed through. McCain had no excuse other than at best it was convenient to not be a better person.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
We will all eventually be old people clinging to outdated beliefs. History supports this with alarming regularity. I'll go out on a limb and say that by today's standards most people who lived were bigots, racists, sexists, or what have yous. And yet many of them are still worthy of respect for what they did, what they discovered, suffered or accomplished. People are not simply an amalgamation of their worst attributes or beliefs. That's an awful way to view humanity as a whole and I simply don't share it with you.
Indeed it is, but humanity doesn't get the luxury to ignore the bad deeds we do when we die we will be judged by the good and the bad. This is why it's important to evolve as society has, and this McCain failed to do. Bigots and racists who do something good don't stop being bigots and racists, that is a part of who they are until they dict those bad beliefs, especially when those beliefs are used to harm people like McCain used his political career to do.
We are an amalgamation of all that we do, not simply the good and the bad - McCain did a lot of bad in his life time.
And yet when it comes to hold the GOP to this standard I rarely see you do it, which is why this statement rings hollow.
Just so we're clear then, everyone who has ever died, in all of history, you do not criticize. Not one? Literally every person that has ever died you refuse to say a critical word about?
McCain did not live in the past. He lived in modern times. Robert Byrd of all people managed to be a better person who renounced his past and actually followed through. McCain had no excuse other than at best it was convenient.
Criticize ≠ Shit On Vigorously Immediately Upon Death.
My point of historical comparisons is that we as people are more than our flaws. Both today and in days past. Saying "nah fuck him he was a racist" is remarkably shortsighted. Now, granted: the world would not end if upon death, we held giant ill-tempered roasts of the deceased and spit on their memory because of the bad things they said and did during life. Civilization would likely continue on. But it seems foolish to throw out another of our kinder and gentler traditions. They are already in short supply these days.
And yet when it comes to hold the GOP to this standard I rarely see you do it, which is why this statement rings hollow.
I find little need to criticize the GOP or Republicans at large on these forums despite agreeing with them on very little, you all do a marvelous and extremely thorough job. With an easy 99% of the forums already on that train it seems not worthwhile, but I'm happy to enlighten you as to my feelings on any particular matter if you ask.
Just so we're clear then, everyone who has ever died, in all of history, you do not criticize. Not one? Literally every person that has ever died you refuse to say a critical word about?
McCain did not live in the past. He lived in modern times. Robert Byrd of all people managed to be a better person who renounced his past and actually followed through. McCain had no excuse other than at best it was convenient.
Criticize ≠ Shit On Vigorously Immediately Upon Death.
My point of historical comparisons is that we as people are more than our flaws. Both today and in days past. Saying "nah fuck him he was a racist" is remarkably shortsighted. Now, granted: the world would not end if upon death, we held giant ill-tempered roasts of the deceased and spit on their memory because of the bad things they said and did during life. Civilization would likely continue on. But it seems foolish to throw out another of our kinder and gentler traditions. They are already in short supply these days.
No one not banned from this thread has shit on him.
I have not said "nah fuck him he was a racist" I have said "He supported LGBT discrimination, needless war, and opposed people receiving life saving healthcare. He gave excellent speeches about the lamentable state of his party then proceeded to go along with the same party 99% of the time. These are actions I consider atrocious and I'd say it was put best earlier that he's simply the best the GOP has to offer, but hardly a good person." Please do not oversimplify this.
People here have pointed out they think he was a bad person based on the actions he took and positions he held up until the day he died. Your claim so far is they should not because pointing out that he harmed millions is disrespectful to one man.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
I'm not failing moral responsibilities, I'm merely not adhering to ignoring a single man's past deeds. It says a lot about them that they fail at this, actually.
McCain voted for the ACA, despite disliking it and he stood up to Trump about his admin putting kids in cages. Things I would like to see more from Republicans. Everyone agrees he was brave for being a POW, Frankie, that's a safe answer which tells me nothing about how you felt about that man's beliefs or deeds you agreed with. You're not as politically naive as you're acting here, McCain was national figure, not a political cipher. You're tendency to refuse to criticise the GOP when they do something bad isn't a good look.
McCain is a very good example of a saying I heard long ago and don't remember exactly.
Anyone can triumph in the face of adversity, but give a man power and you'll see the true nature of his character.
It is a pretty saying, but I'd also wager the man who said it hadn't been tortured by the Viet Cong.
I think resisting power and resisting torture are both complicated in their own way, being able to do one doesn't mean you've "innate good character" to do the other. They're very different things that aren't just dealt with by having enough grit or what have you.
Surely what you're arguing here is that we need to take McCain's life on balance - there was good and there was bad, and unless he's truly exceptional - one will outweigh the other.
I just don’t truck with the idea that anyone is obligated to speak only positive things about someone who’s died. In the presence of McCain’s family I’d absolutely bite my tongue specifically for the sake of the mourning relatives. But in a public forum to discuss matters? No. It only encourages the idea tha it’s okay to do terrible things so long as you’re “civil” about it.
From my perspective, I said plenty about how much i disagreed with him when he was alive. Voted against him too.
But, now that he is dead, i dont see the point in putting him on blast. There are alive people I can do that towards. People that are actively doing things i disagree with.
It just seems.....i don't know....less classy to continue to gripe about someone who is dead this shortly after they died.
In a few years when his record is more a data point than an immediate reflection on the man? Sure. Go for it.
Now it just feels....not right.
Not 100% sure why.
Reverence for the dead has, for some folks, taken a back seat to using a man's final moment in the public eye to advance their political position.
That's at least part of what makes it feel not right to me.
Death improves no man. Someone who's a shitbird while they are alive is not suddenly a better person after they die.
The dead deserve no reverence the living weren't getting already.
Dead people get some reverence. It's less respecting the person and more respecting death.
That doesn't even make sense. Death doesn't need any respect.
The only difference between a man before he's dead and after is the living man could still change. Once they dead, they were what they were and we should treat them as such.
I know, it doesn't make sense. Yet, you'd be less eager to protest any individual's funeral over their book signing. You would wish bad things to happen to your enemies, but wishing they were dead feels like you're giving up a part of your own soul. Am I right? It's a cultural thing ingrained in our genetics.
No, I don't feel it is. I wouldn't protest someone's funeral because even the shittiest people probably have someone close to them who's gonna miss them and that's what a funeral is for. (Someone's state funeral though? Yeah, I'd be ok with that for quite a few people I can think of.)
But just cause I wouldn't disrupt their family's private ceremony of the dead doesn't mean I wouldn't call said person a piece of shit if that's what they were in life.
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
I'm not failing moral responsibilities, I'm merely not adhering to ignoring a single man's past deeds. It says a lot about them that they fail at this, actually.
McCain voted for the ACA, despite disliking it and he stood up to Trump about his admin putting kids in cages. Things I would like to see more from Republicans. Everyone agrees he was brave for being a POW, Frankie, that's a safe answer which tells me nothing about how you felt about that man's beliefs or deeds you agreed with. You're tendency to refuse to criticise the GOP when they do something bad isn't a good look.
My entire history here isn't a "good look" Harry, if you look from a popularity standpoint. I stand by what I said, I don't enjoy participating in the proverbial circle jerk of Republican hatred here. That I feel that way despite my general dislike of their party should say something about how much of that you do around here. If it helps, amidst my gaming circle of friends I'm pretty much the only one who leans liberal and I find myself defending that side a lot more. For what it is worth, one thing I value about my time on this forum tremendously, and that is exposure to ideas, even the ones I consider wrong or extreme. I don't have to agree with someone to try to empathize with how they feel, and I can't do that if I don't know how they feel or what they believe.
Anyways, less meta, I am a bit confused though. I've responded several times to you about the things I disliked about him. The post you quoted has "Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter" in it. Is there something more you want?
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
McCain is a very good example of a saying I heard long ago and don't remember exactly.
Anyone can triumph in the face of adversity, but give a man power and you'll see the true nature of his character.
It is a pretty saying, but I'd also wager the man who said it hadn't been tortured by the Viet Cong.
I think resisting power and resisting torture are both complicated in their own way, being able to do one doesn't mean you've "innate good character" to do the other. They're very different things that aren't just dealt with by having enough grit or what have you.
Surely what you're arguing here is that we need to take McCain's life on balance - there was good and there was bad, and unless he's truly exceptional - one will outweigh the other.
Mostly, yes, except I'm saying the final judgement doesn't matter at the moment. There was both good and bad to him, and I think it's worthwhile to extend the kindness of remembering the good in the wake of his death. It is a small kindness, and the last thing any of us can hope for when we're gone.
I just don’t truck with the idea that anyone is obligated to speak only positive things about someone who’s died. In the presence of McCain’s family I’d absolutely bite my tongue specifically for the sake of the mourning relatives. But in a public forum to discuss matters? No. It only encourages the idea tha it’s okay to do terrible things so long as you’re “civil” about it.
From my perspective, I said plenty about how much i disagreed with him when he was alive. Voted against him too.
But, now that he is dead, i dont see the point in putting him on blast. There are alive people I can do that towards. People that are actively doing things i disagree with.
It just seems.....i don't know....less classy to continue to gripe about someone who is dead this shortly after they died.
In a few years when his record is more a data point than an immediate reflection on the man? Sure. Go for it.
Now it just feels....not right.
Not 100% sure why.
There are things that McCain did - ones that had a definite negative impact - that I was not aware of until a couple of days ago. That I should be aware of and that other people should also be aware of. It kind of sucks that death was the catalyst for this illumination but it is what it is. I think death is the perfect time to remind everyone why we should learn from the person's mistakes and faults rather than idolize and repeat them.
No one has a right to be remembered positively. Live positively and then you may deserve to be thought of that way.
McCain wasn't 100% bad. Nobody is. But washing away the bad does both the person and society a grave disservice.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral responsibility to white-wash people's actions. This is not an ideal worth having and I doubt most people have claimed it is. That you think it is says more about you then it does about me.
McCain did some good things in life and also a truckload of awful and shitty and corrupt and craven things. It is not immoral to say that just cause he's dead.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
That is a way of thinking I cannot understand.
Hell, Germans and Allied forces managed a Christmas football game. I'm certain you can manage a kind word for the dead, or at the very least, brief silence.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
That is a way of thinking I cannot understand.
Hell, Germans and Allied forces managed a Christmas football game. I'm certain you can manage a kind word for the dead, or at the very least, brief silence.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
That is a way of thinking I cannot understand.
Hell, Germans and Allied forces managed a Christmas football game. I'm certain you can manage a kind word for the dead, or at the very least, brief silence.
No. Hitler is dead too. Fuck that guy. QED
The point is, if armies at war can manage a brief reprieve and recognize the humanity of the other, than so can you. Unless you somehow view your present circumstances more dire than the trenches.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
That is a way of thinking I cannot understand.
Hell, Germans and Allied forces managed a Christmas football game. I'm certain you can manage a kind word for the dead, or at the very least, brief silence.
No. Hitler is dead too. Fuck that guy. QED
The point is, if armies at war can manage a brief reprieve and recognize the humanity of the other, than so can you. Unless you somehow view your present circumstances more dire than the trenches.
No, that's not the point at all. The point is McCain was a shitty person in life and now he's dead and him being dead doesn't make him any less a shitty person. It is not a moral imperative for us to be kind to him just cause he's dead. Which is what you actually claimed not whatever this shit is about football.
Posts
That doesn't even make sense. Death doesn't need any respect.
The only difference between a man before he's dead and after is the living man could still change. Once they dead, they were what they were and we should treat them as such.
Are you kidding? That's as American as apple pie. This has been the status quo between the parties longer than you or I have been alive. Expect to see this done when Obama, Hillary or John Kerry dies by the right. You sure seem to be passively judging us for not demurring on McCain with this comment, Frankie.
Even the GOP fails to be civil with McCain, yet I don't see you calling them out - that is a party at war with itself over McCain, not us.
I know, it doesn't make sense. Yet, you'd be less eager to protest any individual's funeral over their book signing. You would wish bad things to happen to your enemies, but wishing they were dead feels like you're giving up a part of your own soul. Am I right? It's a cultural thing ingrained in our genetics.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Trump is indeed failing to be civil or show respect to McCain. Just like you and others here. A beautiful meeting of the minds, as it were. It’s amazing that the one thing you can agree with Trump on is shitting on a recently deceased former POW.
There is nothing civil about McCain's history of racism and bigotry even when he used nice words to express it. Some of us value not being those things over being a POW.
Context, Frankie. It's not our jobs to do that, it is for the political apparatus and the press to honour McCain - we're citizens. Nor are we partying over this like Trump is. We're highlighting his misdeeds not celebrating his death, I'm positive you know this.
That POW didn't stop existing after leaving his tour of duty, he became a politician who did many stupid and thoughtless things which hurt many people over literally decades in congress.
Since you want to honour McCain why don't you show us by example. What did you like about him?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-30/trump-says-mccain-flag-flap-wasn-t-fumble-after-disagreements
If thats all that matters to you about a person I’m certain you have many deaths to celebrate day by day. But to me this is very much a “let he that is without sin” situation. When I die I don’t want someone to take all the shitty pieces of my life and rant about what an asshole I was. Neither would most people, or their loved ones. It costs me absolutely nothing to respect what I can respect about a man or woman in the wake of their death, or failing that to say nothing at all. If we can’t manage that small amount of decency, then hell. I don’t know what to say.
I didn’t like him. But I can respect his service, and that during his captivity he sacrificed more for our country than I likely ever will.
I understand the idea of civility and "good form" as it were has been worn thin here, and I get that. But I'd argue that how we treat people should be a value independent of our enemies and how they behave. It's an ideal to strive for at any rate, not something to simply toss aside because our enemies are geese. Because our enemies will always be geese, and it makes no sense to let them define how we behave and how we treat those around us.
I don't celebrate when it happens. I regret they couldn't be a better person. If I end up as horrible a person as McCain people should say I am. I do my best every day to not advocate the horrible things McCain did.
McCain couldn't manage the small amount of decency to treat gay people as equals. As far as I'm concerned he's not deserving of me lauding him as a True American Hero™. He was an old man who clung to outdated beliefs and refused to let go until it was politically inconvenient. You may not care about that as much as him dying but I do. I do not owe bigots respect no matter how much you "respect" them.
It'd be great if you'd apply this same idea to people like McCain. You're far more concerned about people criticizing a documented racist than the racist who did racist things.
I'd say a far better ideal to strive for is to admit when someone is not a good, laudable person based on what they've done.
No one's saying you can't bash on Republicans anymore. And no one is saying you have to laud anyone as a True American Hero. Merely, that death is usually a time for what respect you can find, and if you can find none then take a moment of silence. We all die in the end.
We will all eventually be old people clinging to outdated beliefs. History supports this with alarming regularity. I'll go out on a limb and say that by today's standards most people who lived were bigots, racists, sexists, or what have yous. And yet many of them are still worthy of respect for what they did, what they discovered, suffered or accomplished. People are not simply an amalgamation of their worst attributes or beliefs. That's an awful way to view humanity as a whole and I simply don't share it with you.
McCain did not live in the past. He lived in modern times. Robert Byrd of all people managed to be a better person who renounced his past and actually followed through. McCain had no excuse other than at best it was convenient to not be a better person.
Then respect him, Frankie - tell us things you agreed with him about. Show us what you want from us, rather than telling us. Even I can find common ground with McCain, surely you can think of something.
While I respect the ideal to live up to, this encourages the narrative that Democrats must be angels while the Republicans have no responsibility to uphold to.
I'd appreciate not framing this as "our" enemies, as well.
They're not defining anything, Frankie, they can look like geese without us not adhering to McCain's mythologised legacy the press created out of thin air.
Now I'm curious, what didn't you like about him?
Indeed it is, but humanity doesn't get the luxury to ignore the bad deeds we do when we die we will be judged by the good and the bad. This is why it's important to evolve as society has, and this McCain failed to do. Bigots and racists who do something good don't stop being bigots and racists, that is a part of who they are until they dict those bad beliefs, especially when those beliefs are used to harm people like McCain used his political career to do.
We are an amalgamation of all that we do, not simply the good and the bad - McCain did a lot of bad in his life time.
And yet when it comes to hold the GOP to this standard I rarely see you do it, which is why this statement rings hollow.
Criticize ≠ Shit On Vigorously Immediately Upon Death.
My point of historical comparisons is that we as people are more than our flaws. Both today and in days past. Saying "nah fuck him he was a racist" is remarkably shortsighted. Now, granted: the world would not end if upon death, we held giant ill-tempered roasts of the deceased and spit on their memory because of the bad things they said and did during life. Civilization would likely continue on. But it seems foolish to throw out another of our kinder and gentler traditions. They are already in short supply these days.
I find little need to criticize the GOP or Republicans at large on these forums despite agreeing with them on very little, you all do a marvelous and extremely thorough job. With an easy 99% of the forums already on that train it seems not worthwhile, but I'm happy to enlighten you as to my feelings on any particular matter if you ask.
No one not banned from this thread has shit on him.
I have not said "nah fuck him he was a racist" I have said "He supported LGBT discrimination, needless war, and opposed people receiving life saving healthcare. He gave excellent speeches about the lamentable state of his party then proceeded to go along with the same party 99% of the time. These are actions I consider atrocious and I'd say it was put best earlier that he's simply the best the GOP has to offer, but hardly a good person." Please do not oversimplify this.
People here have pointed out they think he was a bad person based on the actions he took and positions he held up until the day he died. Your claim so far is they should not because pointing out that he harmed millions is disrespectful to one man.
Seriously. Robert Byrd existed. He was literally a member of the KKK who did everything he could to make up for it.
McCain was a racist who, decades later, hid behind every excuse he could to keep being a racist.
Democrats do not have to be angels. But Republicans failing their moral responsibilities doesn't mean you do the same. That arguably says more about you than it does them. It means these were never ideals you truly held to, they were merely facades you held up so long as you had to.
I'm not certain where you would find common ground for McCain. For me it's his time as POW, he did us proud there. It's a situation I cannot imagine myself in. Regardless of what came after, I can give him that. As to what I dislike, I feel there are pages and pages already describing ill feelings on the matter. I don't need to add to it. Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter.
Anyone can triumph in the face of adversity, but give a man power and you'll see the true nature of his character.
And if they can't, we really shouldn't be letting them become Senators.
I'm not failing moral responsibilities, I'm merely not adhering to ignoring a single man's past deeds. It says a lot about them that they fail at this, actually.
McCain voted for the ACA, despite disliking it and he stood up to Trump about his admin putting kids in cages. Things I would like to see more from Republicans. Everyone agrees he was brave for being a POW, Frankie, that's a safe answer which tells me nothing about how you felt about that man's beliefs or deeds you agreed with. You're not as politically naive as you're acting here, McCain was national figure, not a political cipher. You're tendency to refuse to criticise the GOP when they do something bad isn't a good look.
It is a pretty saying, but I'd also wager the man who said it hadn't been tortured by the Viet Cong.
I think you may have missed the point.
No but I bet they appreciated being tortured doesn't make someone a good person.
I think resisting power and resisting torture are both complicated in their own way, being able to do one doesn't mean you've "innate good character" to do the other. They're very different things that aren't just dealt with by having enough grit or what have you.
Surely what you're arguing here is that we need to take McCain's life on balance - there was good and there was bad, and unless he's truly exceptional - one will outweigh the other.
No, I don't feel it is. I wouldn't protest someone's funeral because even the shittiest people probably have someone close to them who's gonna miss them and that's what a funeral is for. (Someone's state funeral though? Yeah, I'd be ok with that for quite a few people I can think of.)
But just cause I wouldn't disrupt their family's private ceremony of the dead doesn't mean I wouldn't call said person a piece of shit if that's what they were in life.
I'm not sure why you think this is a rebuttal of the point.
When McCain had political power, he almost exclusively just did shitty and corrupt and weak-willed things with it.
Shit, McCain endorsed both GWB and Trump. That speaks to his character more clearly then any other example.
My entire history here isn't a "good look" Harry, if you look from a popularity standpoint. I stand by what I said, I don't enjoy participating in the proverbial circle jerk of Republican hatred here. That I feel that way despite my general dislike of their party should say something about how much of that you do around here. If it helps, amidst my gaming circle of friends I'm pretty much the only one who leans liberal and I find myself defending that side a lot more. For what it is worth, one thing I value about my time on this forum tremendously, and that is exposure to ideas, even the ones I consider wrong or extreme. I don't have to agree with someone to try to empathize with how they feel, and I can't do that if I don't know how they feel or what they believe.
Anyways, less meta, I am a bit confused though. I've responded several times to you about the things I disliked about him. The post you quoted has "Suffice it to say I didn't appreciate many of his positions or his tendency to vote straight party line regardless of his feelings on the matter" in it. Is there something more you want?
I think the point was flawed when it equated "adversity" with "torture".
It is not a moral imperative to be kind about bad people and the bad things they do. We are not just as bad as Republicans for condemning Republicans who do evil.
We would be remiss if we did not rake him over the coals.
Mostly, yes, except I'm saying the final judgement doesn't matter at the moment. There was both good and bad to him, and I think it's worthwhile to extend the kindness of remembering the good in the wake of his death. It is a small kindness, and the last thing any of us can hope for when we're gone.
There are things that McCain did - ones that had a definite negative impact - that I was not aware of until a couple of days ago. That I should be aware of and that other people should also be aware of. It kind of sucks that death was the catalyst for this illumination but it is what it is. I think death is the perfect time to remind everyone why we should learn from the person's mistakes and faults rather than idolize and repeat them.
No one has a right to be remembered positively. Live positively and then you may deserve to be thought of that way.
McCain wasn't 100% bad. Nobody is. But washing away the bad does both the person and society a grave disservice.
It is not a moral responsibility to white-wash people's actions. This is not an ideal worth having and I doubt most people have claimed it is. That you think it is says more about you then it does about me.
McCain did some good things in life and also a truckload of awful and shitty and corrupt and craven things. It is not immoral to say that just cause he's dead.
That is a way of thinking I cannot understand.
Hell, Germans and Allied forces managed a Christmas football game. I'm certain you can manage a kind word for the dead, or at the very least, brief silence.
No. Hitler is dead too. Fuck that guy. QED
The point is, if armies at war can manage a brief reprieve and recognize the humanity of the other, than so can you. Unless you somehow view your present circumstances more dire than the trenches.
No, that's not the point at all. The point is McCain was a shitty person in life and now he's dead and him being dead doesn't make him any less a shitty person. It is not a moral imperative for us to be kind to him just cause he's dead. Which is what you actually claimed not whatever this shit is about football.