Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
I mean technically you can't do what you want you have no free will right? Wanting things is just the resolution of inevitability.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
I mean technically you can't do what you want you have no free will right? Wanting things is just the resolution of inevitability.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
I mean technically you can't do what you want you have no free will right? Wanting things is just the resolution of inevitability.
You can absolutely do what you want without critically evaluating why it is that you want to do what you want.
Again then how do you build a moral framework from there?
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
I mean technically you can't do what you want you have no free will right? Wanting things is just the resolution of inevitability.
You can absolutely do what you want without critically evaluating why it is that you want to do what you want.
And critical evaluation needn't lead to catatonia.
At the end of the day you're going to do a thing, even if that thing is sitting in a corner starving to death overthinking things.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
If I had free will I would have gone to the doctor or dentist more recently than a decade ago.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
Yeah, your situation sounds like it sucks, and I don't get why Sisyphus doesn't let the boulder roll over him either.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
If I had free will I would have gone to the doctor or dentist more recently than a decade ago.
That depends on why you haven't, which can still be about being able to choose your options. If it's purely logistics or money then its got nothing to do with free will.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
If I had free will I would have gone to the doctor or dentist more recently than a decade ago.
That depends on why you haven't, which can still be about being able to choose your options. If it's purely logistics or money then its got nothing to do with free will.
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
Why would you choose to do something you don't want to do for no reason?
How do wants even work with free will?
It's a thing that certainly exists but dont necessarily control your course of action. It'll probably affect the outcome a bunch, but it isn't necessarily a predictor or determinate of action.
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
In that case its still something which is not entirely in your control. Anxiety can be very difficult to get a hold of, regardless of how much free will you have.
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
In that case its still something which is not entirely in your control. Anxiety can be very difficult to get a hold of, regardless of how much free will you have.
So what part is supposed to actually be free, exactly, if all of these non-free forces can stop your will?
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
In that case its still something which is not entirely in your control. Anxiety can be very difficult to get a hold of, regardless of how much free will you have.
So what part is supposed to actually be free, exactly, if all of these non-free forces can stop your will?
It's about things you can't control and those you can. Anxiety can be controllable, but that relies on a lot of circumstances for how bad it is in the first place and what strategies you can have access to, having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will, it's just that sometimes the world can have numerous powerful vectors in it which naturally can't be overcome by wanting to. Another factor is that even with free will sometimes that is not enough to succeed in a goal if it is too insurmountable if you fight it.
Free will is merely about having access to choose things.
Determinism is as much a supernatural explanation.
We are necessarily speaking over a conclusion that cannot be tested in the natural world in a concrete manner.
There need not be a soul for free will any more than you need a God for determinism.
All of those statements could be true and it would change nothing about my point, which is that you can have a workable concept of moral responsibility without relying on a version of free will that necessitates rejecting determinism.
Please describe how to build a moral responsibility if we have no free will cannot truly make our decisions and have no true control of our actions
I would rather argue that we are bodies continuously processing information about the world around us. We receive a lot of information passively or involuntarily as the universe presents to us. But, being also possessed of a physical body that interacts with other physical objects, the information processing is not limited to information passively acquired, and can be a part of a causal process that brings about change. Someone can be an integral part of a certain causal process, to the extent that their absence would have meant no process. If someone is an integral part of a causal process in a way that implicates both their information processing and physical body, then they are responsible to some extent because the same things that make them who they are, are the things that made the situation turn out the way it did. What makes someone responsible on this account is the fact that who they are specifically is a cause of what happened.
I will grant we are beings of information I exist as the things that have happened a big old bank of information.
How do I possess the body? I can take no act with it, all of its acts are at the end of inevitably yes I as a being of information am processed as it happens and it leaves its records with me, but that's just it further using me without any active consent to being used I cannot necessarily consent as I do not have the will to do so.
You don't possess the body, you are the body.
How?
It is at best the vessel I as a being of information am imprisoned in/shackled to
That seems like an enormous claim to just casually assume is true, as if any other idea would be on its face absurd, somehow. Like I don't even know what it would mean to be an imprisoned being of information, versus a physical organism with a brain made out of... well, brain, that produces thoughts and emotions through physical means.
"We receive a lot of information passively or involuntarily as the universe presents to us"
Willing to grant this point here
we exist as the record. If we are granting the premise I as a self aware being exist. At best that I is the record of information forced upon it by uncontrollable actions, that is processed by uncontrollable action, and is used to perform uncontrollable actions. That I is hopelessly shackled to a corporeal form it has no true control of.
Saying that we exist as the record arbitrarily excludes other parts of what we are. The record is part of what we are, but we are also the recording device, the process of recording, the process of interpreting, the interpretations, the storage system, and maybe more besides. All of those parts are necessary components of us. You keep breaking concepts by being overly reductive about what we are.
How could i be a thing i have no control over?
The recording, against my will, the process of recording, against my will, the process of interpreting, against my will, the storage... kinda also against my will,
I guess not against my will but totally without regard for my will as that will ostensibly does not exist.
That's all stuff that's happening without any other possible course.
You question "How could i be a thing i have no control over?" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why do you need to have control in order to be a thing?
Your "against my will" constructions also make no sense to me, because as far as I'm concerned, "my" connotes the things that are happening and the body they are happening to/with. If you can argue why the self is the record and nothing else, then my account may be wrong, but using my terms in a way that makes no sense isn't in and of itself an argument.
So that's again the point... where is the self?
If it's all interconnected dominoes working via physics then why does me end at my skin? The air around it is as responsible for its actions as anything else.
How exactly is the air just as responsible? What causal role does it play in what you do?
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
In that case its still something which is not entirely in your control. Anxiety can be very difficult to get a hold of, regardless of how much free will you have.
So what part is supposed to actually be free, exactly, if all of these non-free forces can stop your will?
It's about things you can't control and those you can. Anxiety can be controllable, but that relies on a lot of circumstances for how bad it is in the first place and what strategies you can have access to, having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will, it's just that sometimes the world can have numerous powerful vectors in it which naturally can't be overcome by wanting to. Another factor is that even with free will sometimes that is not enough to succeed in a goal if it is too insurmountable if you fight it.
Free will is merely about having access to choose things.
How do you have free will of you can't actually act on your freely willed choices when your own mind is the only barrier?
Determinism is as much a supernatural explanation.
We are necessarily speaking over a conclusion that cannot be tested in the natural world in a concrete manner.
There need not be a soul for free will any more than you need a God for determinism.
All of those statements could be true and it would change nothing about my point, which is that you can have a workable concept of moral responsibility without relying on a version of free will that necessitates rejecting determinism.
Please describe how to build a moral responsibility if we have no free will cannot truly make our decisions and have no true control of our actions
I would rather argue that we are bodies continuously processing information about the world around us. We receive a lot of information passively or involuntarily as the universe presents to us. But, being also possessed of a physical body that interacts with other physical objects, the information processing is not limited to information passively acquired, and can be a part of a causal process that brings about change. Someone can be an integral part of a certain causal process, to the extent that their absence would have meant no process. If someone is an integral part of a causal process in a way that implicates both their information processing and physical body, then they are responsible to some extent because the same things that make them who they are, are the things that made the situation turn out the way it did. What makes someone responsible on this account is the fact that who they are specifically is a cause of what happened.
I will grant we are beings of information I exist as the things that have happened a big old bank of information.
How do I possess the body? I can take no act with it, all of its acts are at the end of inevitably yes I as a being of information am processed as it happens and it leaves its records with me, but that's just it further using me without any active consent to being used I cannot necessarily consent as I do not have the will to do so.
You don't possess the body, you are the body.
How?
It is at best the vessel I as a being of information am imprisoned in/shackled to
That seems like an enormous claim to just casually assume is true, as if any other idea would be on its face absurd, somehow. Like I don't even know what it would mean to be an imprisoned being of information, versus a physical organism with a brain made out of... well, brain, that produces thoughts and emotions through physical means.
"We receive a lot of information passively or involuntarily as the universe presents to us"
Willing to grant this point here
we exist as the record. If we are granting the premise I as a self aware being exist. At best that I is the record of information forced upon it by uncontrollable actions, that is processed by uncontrollable action, and is used to perform uncontrollable actions. That I is hopelessly shackled to a corporeal form it has no true control of.
Saying that we exist as the record arbitrarily excludes other parts of what we are. The record is part of what we are, but we are also the recording device, the process of recording, the process of interpreting, the interpretations, the storage system, and maybe more besides. All of those parts are necessary components of us. You keep breaking concepts by being overly reductive about what we are.
How could i be a thing i have no control over?
The recording, against my will, the process of recording, against my will, the process of interpreting, against my will, the storage... kinda also against my will,
I guess not against my will but totally without regard for my will as that will ostensibly does not exist.
That's all stuff that's happening without any other possible course.
You question "How could i be a thing i have no control over?" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why do you need to have control in order to be a thing?
Your "against my will" constructions also make no sense to me, because as far as I'm concerned, "my" connotes the things that are happening and the body they are happening to/with. If you can argue why the self is the record and nothing else, then my account may be wrong, but using my terms in a way that makes no sense isn't in and of itself an argument.
So that's again the point... where is the self?
If it's all interconnected dominoes working via physics then why does me end at my skin? The air around it is as responsible for its actions as anything else.
How exactly is the air just as responsible? What causal role does it play in what you do?
I mean you can't readily explain exactly how the causal forces work. ostensibly if we're going all the way down to the quantum level... every atom affects every atom near it.
On a more basic level
Without the air the body wouldn't be doing much would it?
We cannot ever perfectly predict the weather, but I don't see you saying the weather has free will.
I fuckin say weather has a will all the fuckin time. It's just never really come up here cause y'all are silly geese that would shit all over my beliefs.
How do you have free will of you can't actually act on your freely willed choices when your own mind is the only barrier?
There's a difference between having free will and being a god.
Human minds are complicated things which we are barely able to understand, subjects like depression, anxiety are what happen to your body and how much capability you have to overcome it rely on a lot of things outside your control. This is normal. The universe isn't saying you have a certain path, it's merely a rock you are unable to budge. It's be completely different if we had the ability to completely control our minds from impacts like that, but we don't have the techniques to do it. Maybe in the future we will.
having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will
What?
"You may choose A or B. But not B."
That's how the world works, sometimes. It has nothing to do with free will. For example, you can want to fly to X, but when you don't have money you can't. Free will can't over come physics.
edit: I think were getting mixed up between having free will and being able to act on it.
There's a difference between having free will and being a god.
Human minds are complicated things which we are barely able to understand, subjects like depression, anxiety are what happen to your body and how much capability you have to overcome it rely on a lot of things outside your control. This is normal. The universe isn't saying you have a certain path, it's merely a rock you are unable to budge. It's be completely different if we had the ability to completely control our minds from impacts like that, but we don't have the techniques to do it. Maybe in the future we will.
I am fairly certain that divinity is not required to call up some person to ask for an appointment to bop your knee with a rubber hammer.
having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will
What?
"You may choose A or B. But not B."
That's how the world works, sometimes. It has nothing to do with free will. For example, you can want to fly to X, but when you don't have money you can't. Free will can't over come physics.
edit: I think were getting mixed up between having free will and being able to act on it.
But that's not a choice. It's a desire.
You literally can't choose to fly anywhere. All you can do is wish that you could fly somewhere.
How do you have free will of you can't actually act on your freely willed choices when your own mind is the only barrier?
There's a difference between having free will and being a god.
Human minds are complicated things which we are barely able to understand, subjects like depression, anxiety are what happen to your body and how much capability you have to overcome it rely on a lot of things outside your control. This is normal. The universe isn't saying you have a certain path, it's merely a rock you are unable to budge. It's be completely different if we had the ability to completely control our minds from impacts like that, but we don't have the techniques to do it. Maybe in the future we will.
having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will
What?
"You may choose A or B. But not B."
That's how the world works, sometimes. It has nothing to do with free will. For example, you can want to fly to X, but when you don't have money you can't. Free will can't over come physics.
edit: I think were getting mixed up between having free will and being able to act on it.
But... I mean that's not a choice. It's a desire.
You literally can't choose to fly anywhere. All you can do is wish that you could fly somewhere.
And then you can choose to take a bunch of actions to make it happen, which may necessarily include getting over a mental block such as a fear of flying. Might have to work a back door and take some drugs to force your way past the mental block.
How do you have free will of you can't actually act on your freely willed choices when your own mind is the only barrier?
There's a difference between having free will and being a god.
Human minds are complicated things which we are barely able to understand, subjects like depression, anxiety are what happen to your body and how much capability you have to overcome it rely on a lot of things outside your control. This is normal. The universe isn't saying you have a certain path, it's merely a rock you are unable to budge. It's be completely different if we had the ability to completely control our minds from impacts like that, but we don't have the techniques to do it. Maybe in the future we will.
having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will
What?
"You may choose A or B. But not B."
That's how the world works, sometimes. It has nothing to do with free will. For example, you can want to fly to X, but when you don't have money you can't. Free will can't over come physics.
edit: I think were getting mixed up between having free will and being able to act on it.
But... I mean that's not a choice. It's a desire.
You literally can't choose to fly anywhere. All you can do is wish that you could fly somewhere.
And then you can choose to take a bunch of actions to make it happen, which may necessarily include getting over a mental block such as a fear of flying. Might have to work a back door and take some drugs to force your way past the mental block.
I'm not arguing that it can never be a choice. I'm saying that in that moment, it isn't a an option. You want to fly, but you can't. There isn't even a choice to be made.
I think you're confusing desire with choice.
You can choose to begin the process necessary for it to become possible because you want to fly.
But you can't just decide to sprout wings and take off.
Posts
The negotation of individual subjective values. Compromise and persuasion.
Last week I had a discussion with a friend about welfare should work. They didn't want people to be rewarded for being lazy, I didn't want people to have no food and shelter. We came to a mutual agreement that food and shelter should be freely available, but not in expensive places; you have to earn your way to somewhere fancy.
Internally, I have a debate between "I sure like touching butts" and "I sure don't want to hurt anyone" and so I negotiate to only touching butts with consent, but feeling free to enjoy genuine accidents if they happen instead of acting horrified.
So... act like humans are special, and like you're making decisions about how act?
We evolved empathy that causes us to treat other creatures as special, and there's no particular reason to fight it, so I don't.
And again, decisions are still decisions, they're just not riding a chariot.
So yeah you can't build a moral system from your philosophy.
Again, "because it feels like it", is rejecting the conclusion and building from free will as far as morality is concerned
Because i feel empathy and make decisions and take actions based on it. Is building from a free will context on a morality scale.
I mean I don't really do morals, so maybe someone here who does can help you better. I just do what I want because I can, and I happen to have a bunch of biological systems that direct me to a bunch of species-beneficial choices.
I mean technically you can't do what you want you have no free will right? Wanting things is just the resolution of inevitability.
My wants have no chariot.
You can absolutely do what you want without critically evaluating why it is that you want to do what you want.
And critical evaluation needn't lead to catatonia.
At the end of the day you're going to do a thing, even if that thing is sitting in a corner starving to death overthinking things.
-You have no free will
-You can do what you want
Not self contradictory.
Because what I want is determined. Doing something I don't want is a freaking ordeal that basically forces me to want to be determined to change what I am determined to want and to rifle through my patterns until I find a method to do so
Really cause I just do a ton of shit I don't want to do because I chose to do so even in the face of not wanting to do it and I'll not want to do it the whole time it's happening.
If I had free will I would have gone to the doctor or dentist more recently than a decade ago.
Yeah, your situation sounds like it sucks, and I don't get why Sisyphus doesn't let the boulder roll over him either.
How do wants even work with free will?
That depends on why you haven't, which can still be about being able to choose your options. If it's purely logistics or money then its got nothing to do with free will.
Life's shitty when you're suicidal.
Don't worry I've got over it mostly.
I have and have had plenty of resources, but my dad passed on some weird anxiety issues that I haven't been able to shake.
It's a thing that certainly exists but dont necessarily control your course of action. It'll probably affect the outcome a bunch, but it isn't necessarily a predictor or determinate of action.
In that case its still something which is not entirely in your control. Anxiety can be very difficult to get a hold of, regardless of how much free will you have.
So what part is supposed to actually be free, exactly, if all of these non-free forces can stop your will?
It's about things you can't control and those you can. Anxiety can be controllable, but that relies on a lot of circumstances for how bad it is in the first place and what strategies you can have access to, having a choice does not mean it's possible to act on that choice. Not being able to control your life does not mean that you don't have free will, it's just that sometimes the world can have numerous powerful vectors in it which naturally can't be overcome by wanting to. Another factor is that even with free will sometimes that is not enough to succeed in a goal if it is too insurmountable if you fight it.
Free will is merely about having access to choose things.
How exactly is the air just as responsible? What causal role does it play in what you do?
How do you have free will of you can't actually act on your freely willed choices when your own mind is the only barrier?
"You may choose A or B. But not B."
I mean you can't readily explain exactly how the causal forces work. ostensibly if we're going all the way down to the quantum level... every atom affects every atom near it.
On a more basic level
Without the air the body wouldn't be doing much would it?
Use your free will to stop being such a baby
Not being able to control every aspect of your life doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have free will.
It means you have a free will heavily constrained by the context and causality it exists in.
There's still an uncertainty there that we'd call you or your free will.
*Where*?
In the part we can't perfectly replicate or predict
...such as?
There's a difference between having free will and being a god.
Human minds are complicated things which we are barely able to understand, subjects like depression, anxiety are what happen to your body and how much capability you have to overcome it rely on a lot of things outside your control. This is normal. The universe isn't saying you have a certain path, it's merely a rock you are unable to budge. It's be completely different if we had the ability to completely control our minds from impacts like that, but we don't have the techniques to do it. Maybe in the future we will.
That's how the world works, sometimes. It has nothing to do with free will. For example, you can want to fly to X, but when you don't have money you can't. Free will can't over come physics.
edit: I think were getting mixed up between having free will and being able to act on it.
I am fairly certain that divinity is not required to call up some person to ask for an appointment to bop your knee with a rubber hammer.
You literally can't choose to fly anywhere. All you can do is wish that you could fly somewhere.
And then you can choose to take a bunch of actions to make it happen, which may necessarily include getting over a mental block such as a fear of flying. Might have to work a back door and take some drugs to force your way past the mental block.
some of the stuff on the past few pages just keeps making me think back to Data
How does an "emotionless" Android manage to express concepts we would define as "Friendship" and "Loss", without being "human"?
I think you're confusing desire with choice.
You can choose to begin the process necessary for it to become possible because you want to fly.
But you can't just decide to sprout wings and take off.