MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited July 2023
Their belief system explicitly precludes them from accepting a positive one. It treats that as a negative, cringe and pilled or whatever they call it.
They will react negatively to examples of positive maculinity now, it will only reinforce their beliefs. This is why you cant reach the current ones. Its not like a cult, it is a cult.
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(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Their belief system explicitly precludes them from accepting a positive one. It treats that as a negative, cringe and pilled or whatever they call it.
They will react negatively to examples of positive maculinity now, it will only reinforce their beliefs. This is why you cant reach the current ones. Its not like a cult, it is a cult.
In it, the note of someone's observations in talking to incels has these insights, which line up with basically what I expect:
Each man I spoke with was obsessed with physical appearance. They strongly believed women would only seek a relationship with men who are attractive or successful, ideally both.
...
I then asked what non-physical qualities they have that they think women might be interested in. This question was mainly dodged by saying something like "I can't read women's minds." So I flipped the question to ask what non-physical attributes they look for in a women? Not a single one of these men gave a serious answer to this question. And this is where everything started to make sense in my mind.
...
These men are lying to themselves because it's easier for them to believe everyone else is the problem rather than taking actions to improve their own lives. They repeatedly claimed to have no control over their own life, whereas they are actually the cause of their own problems.
Positive masculinity seems like a cul-de-sac to me. It's not going to get us where we want to go, but I guess as a place to stop and relieve some congestion on the road, it'll do for a bit. I can't think of any positive traits that I wouldn't welcome in either gender, which kinda makes me think the exercise is pageantry just to corral the essentialists into a less harmful space, though not necessarily a good space.
The idea that presenting an image of positive masculinity takes away those traits from feminine expression is a false dichotomy. It in fact assumes that any image of masculinity must be toxic. If the only way for men to be <good thing> is for women to be <bad thing>, then there is no positive image of men. It cannot exist.
For a while, people were strongly lauding celebrities for positive behaviors, notably Keanu Reeves for being down to earth and sensitive, as well as Dave Grohl for his generosity and dedication, etc.
The strong male role models are out there, and their existence doesnt preclude female role models from having the same traits.
We just need to make the jump from lauding individuals with laudable traits, into saying those traits are good for all people (so as to avoid the inevitable milkshake ducks). Instead of trying to divide traits into female or male.
I think more people should struggle for the harder cross cultural traits to impress the kids. What's a trait outside of your demographic that is not exactly peaches and cream to adopt but important and doable for you?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think more people should struggle for the harder cross cultural traits to impress the kids. What's a trait outside of your demographic that is not exactly peaches and cream to adopt but important and doable for you?
As a WASPy person I would love to try and build strong family relationships and mutual support networks.
But my introvert tendencies mean I spend most of my free time hiding from social situations.
I don't really think masculinity or femininity can be positive. It's performative. It's little bits of cultural code that you package and broadcast to let others know something about you. The ascribing of certain traits to either is erroneous. All traits are universal. Masculinity and femininity are baseline neutral with the potential to be loaded up with toxic things. At their purest, they just get across some very basic information in lieu of getting to know an individual. They are not a prescription.
A positive male role model is going to display the traits we would encourage for anybody. They would just do it while also demonstrating something masculine, like wearing a tie or some bullshit. Being stoic isn't masculine, it's human. Growing a mustache is masculine, and even things like that are fluid and subject to cultural change.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited July 2023
Any positive grouping of traits is a deliberate crafting of a set of stereotypes you want to give to others as an easy shortcut for how not to be awful.
The problem of course is that this is also awful (there's no such thing as good stereotyping, it's an oxymoron), but it's definitely going to be less awful than the current one.
So in the interest of pragmatism, I don't think it's a terrible stop gap. I don't believe in perfect ideal good solutions (lol, lmao). But changing the conversation around it so it's not even necessary is the real long term solution that will be even better.
Like all real solutions, it's difficult, takes a long time, will get resisted and mocked by people locked into traditional ways, requires a concerted effort by a large group to spread awareness and activism, and isn't necessarily going to fix what's happening right now. If you want to actually change things permanently you'll need to roll up your sleeves and push through that.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I wasn't sure where to post this but I was talking to a friend last night who is still doing the dating apps and she brought up the fact that since our generation got fucked over more than most, millennial men are growing very bitter into their thirties
I wasn't sure where to post this but I was talking to a friend last night who is still doing the dating apps and she brought up the fact that since our generation got fucked over more than most, millennial men are growing very bitter into their thirties
I wonder if that's just millennials or if single guys in their 30s in other generations were also typically bitter.
I've been thinking about this topic a lot as of late and I don't really have a good answer to it because I am a traditionally straight as hell white man. So like, my experiences and opinions are all gonna be viewed through that very specific lense and it's real hard to make that fit other people's experiences. Even other traditionally "masculine" men will have a lived experience that's different than mine. That said, I am gonna use this to touch on one particular subject I haven't really seen expounded on yet.
To start and to bounce off some of the other things I've seen in this thread: I guess my specific thoughts are that there is very much a gap in society for the existence of masculine role models for boys and young men. I understand the inherent pushback against the concept of masculinity or even femininity in this, our enlightened and progressive forum space, but from what I've seen and experienced a large portion of dudes are basically Dude and that's all they really need out of life. I'm like that, personally. So telling a kid who's broiled over with testosterone that the concept of "manliness" is inherently a societal construct and isn't real and that his perceived identity and existence is fundamentally flawed may ultimately be correct its just not going to actually work.
That's why we see people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and even the more gateway assholes like Joe Rogan gaining such widespread popularity amongst those young men. They're out there presenting a version of masculinity that at the surface seems to present an image of confidence and sufficiency and the classic rough and tumble persona that all the ladies swoon over. Obviously their real message is a hyper toxic, ingrown, narcissistic one of dominance and denial that's causing irreparable damage to a generation of boys. But it's there and it's super accessible and it offers an immediate answer to "what's it mean to be a man in this confusing modern age?" It's a question a lot of boys have and I feel like we haven't done a very good job of offering up alternatives to that.
I don't know if that specific question has always existed? Maybe it has and the answer just changes from generation to generation which makes nailing down a consistent answer difficult. To bring this back around to the subject I mentioned above, I think one of the primary contributors to this particular generational issue is how easily accessible the internet is to an increasingly younger generation of children, male and female. Young dudes in particular are accessing a lot of information at very early, formative ages, especially pornography.
I kinda just missed the major internet boom growing up and didn't really have that kind of access to stuff until I was in my mid teens and it still absolutely fucked me up in a lot of ways. Being raised hyper conservative and religious where even the passing mention of sex devolved into hushed whispers and shameful feet staring, internet pornography was my only real peek, and for a very (very unfortunately) long time, my only understanding of heteronormative sex. And folks that ain't good! I can only imagine Gen Z has been inundated with that a lot earlier than I was now that internet access is even more ubiquitous and difficult to control and they are way more tech savvy than even my generation is despite only really being about 4 to 5 years difference between the youngest Millennials and oldest Gen Z'ers.
I think I can probably tie a good bit of my own early self loathing about my body and feelings of frustration and disenfranchisement into my having accessed porn from a younger age than was probably healthy. I was only ever given one idea of what sex was and that idea is largely warped and fake but nobody is really telling you that as a kid. Nobody is saying to these young guys "hey, 99% of actual real human sex is not what you're seeing in porn. In order to be found desirable you do not necessarily have to be a jacked "Alpha Male" with a 10 inch dick." Because, well for one thing, you aren't telling any authority figures in your life that you're even looking at it in the first place. If you're unlucky enough to be raised in a conservative religious environment you're going to be told porn is nasty and disgusting in God's eyes not necessarily because the content is wildly inaccurate but just because it's a sin. That adds in that double whammy of guilt and self loathing from feeling like you're doing something gross and unnatural despite your body chemistry figuratively shaking you by the shoulders and screaming FUCKING PROCREEEEEAAAATEEEEEE at you 24/7.
To be clear, I don't think the existence of porn itself is the problem, it's more the lack of straight talk around it due to America's ingrained puritanical beliefs. Guys don't see the debunking of porn-normal sex until way too late when it's already ground into their cerebellum or whatever. So you have this kind of huge facet of somebody's earliest exposure to sex and the opposite sex saying that "this is what makes you a man" and "this is what women want" and if you don't fit that box you're left holding the bag trying to figure out why you feel so gross and unwanted. From there you go one of two ways: route one is you internalize that and assume there's something wrong with you and it's your fault and you are inherently unlovable. This is the Juggs route and probably why I didn't veer into that incel shit when I got older. I just figured it was me pulling a bad draw and not necessarily anybody else's fault. So I never projected my insecurities onto the outside world so much as I just beat the shit out of myself constantly for years. The other route is you hit that same idea that there's maybe something wrong with you but then ride it straight into anger and the understanding that it's society's fault you don't feel worthy not your own.
That's where the incels come in, and as shitty as it is I can understand some of that anger. There has been a very big push for body positivity in the media but it some times feels like it only applies to women or there's some kind of double standard around it. A dude is still expected to be muscular or big and strong and if you really want to cut a guy to the quick with no effort insinuate he's got a small dick. It's the go to insult in real life and in media. My girlfriend will do it all the time to people on the road. If somebody is driving a big lifted truck or whatever the standard epithet to sling at them is "sorry about your dick, bro." And she's a wildly progressive, inclusive, bi woman. I've seen it here on the forums. But it's so cut into society that a dudes worth is his penis taking a metaphorical swing at it can make or break his reputation. Its in porn, its in TV, its in movies, talk shows, everything. I've personally seen very little effort to combat that idea in the mainstream. It just doesn't seem to be a conversation that's happening or one that anybody want's to have. Now, where I differ from other chuds like the incels is that I recognize it's an entirely self inflicted wound and isn't some weird conspiracy concocted by evil Womyn and Liberal Progressive Cucks to castrate Mandom. It's dude-kind's own weird fetish shooting itself in the, well, dick.
So I think that's one thing that we need to figure out: how do we kind of corral young boys access to images of sex, a thing they are going to find, and at least present it in a way that's either healthier or at least give them the resources to make that distinction or ask the questions they need to ask in a safe space. How can we present the ideas of sex and desire in a way that breaks off from that toxic mold we've built for decades and decades?
This isn't my only driving thought on the concept of masculinity but it's one that I don't think gets a lot of attention. I'd keep going with more rambling stuff but I've already typed a way longer post than I initially meant to. I may take some more time to formulate some more of my ideas and feelings into coherent talky words later.
Edit: cleaned up some grammar and made some sentences more clear.
Double edit: an addendum I'll add to this is that I also think it cuts the other way just as negatively. If you're a young guy seeing this early on and you do fit that concept of warped masculinity then there's a very good possibility you end up thinking "sweet I've got it made no need to change anything or be introspective" and that's how you end up with those assholes who will whip their dicks out at women and commit sexual assault at the drop of a hat. In their own stunted mind they think they're the pinnacle of desirability and probably can't even conceive that what they're doing is actually a horrible crime. Because that's what women, want right? They want an aggressive alpha? So, say, Trump "grabbing em by the pussy" wasn't wrong it was the natural manifestation of how a man should act around a woman and what a woman secretly wants.
I had a friend who was an attractive bartender at a shitty sports bar and the absolute horror stories I heard from her that routinely had me asking "Kasey why the fuck did you not immediately call the police?" Men either think that's what women find attractive or men think that's what they're owed and the only way to get it is by being filthy grunting apes who go out and take it.
That PUA shit that started in the mid 2010s and then warped into modern incels I think are just one side of the same coin of stunted sexual growth that comes from the root question of "masculinity" and what it entails. It's a problem we desperately need to tackle because it's causing literal damage to people's lives on both sides of this issue. For every dipshit that lashes out violently at society there's somebody like me who suffers in silence for years and years without ever really knowing why.
I wasn't sure where to post this but I was talking to a friend last night who is still doing the dating apps and she brought up the fact that since our generation got fucked over more than most, millennial men are growing very bitter into their thirties
I wonder if that's just millennials or if single guys in their 30s in other generations were also typically bitter.
Not sure that's as fair a comparison really, if anything I'd almost say that if we're taking pop culture has vaguely something that resonates with enough people to work (yeah I know, but bear with me), and the general trend across society more towards violence, it kind of seems that there were a lot of bitter married people in those earlier generations too. Something that I think literature suggests predated leaded gas (though before that, men did tend to marry later).
Gen Z and the next one are apparently less sex than earlier generations did at their age. Might be to less booze, even more instability, finally getting a knack on family planning education or residual lead, but there's also that element of looking back to the previous generation's experience and not having that expectation met as well. Or even the cold and heartless nature of stats, it could just be the focus on the incel movement is that beersoaked "acceptably rapey" underbelly of society finally fizzling out and calcifying into this cult.
I think as far as Juggernut’s point it might make sense to advocate for comprehensive sex ed taught by professionals rather than like the gym teacher, as an early intervention against the alternative sex ed of just finding some porn.
And I mean I thought I had pretty unimpressive sex ed as a kid and then I met people who literally were not told what happens in any way, just to avoid the opposite sex. Also that you’d get every STI if you didn’t avoid them.
I think as far as Juggernut’s point it might make sense to advocate for comprehensive sex ed taught by professionals rather than like the gym teacher, as an early intervention against the alternative sex ed of just finding some porn.
And I mean I thought I had pretty unimpressive sex ed as a kid and then I met people who literally were not told what happens in any way, just to avoid the opposite sex. Also that you’d get every STI if you didn’t avoid them.
The problem is you won't get it.
I was given christ centered abstinence only sex education in 8th or 9th grade. That's it. That's all I ever got. I never got "The Talk" or anything from any authority figures in my life.
And any attempt to push through actual, fact based sexual education will be met by a cacophony of howler monkeys screaming about corrupting children and how we have to get God back in schools. It's infuriating because it's causing significant harm to so many kids and they just refuse to acknowledge the issue.
That directly hurts everybody though and isn't necessarily just a male problem. But I think there's a lot of confusion about male sexuality that nobody is offering any answers to.
Well as I said, angry, alienated, sexually frustrated male energy is deeply exploitable by the unscrupulous. There are hugely powerful entrenched interests who strongly depend on continuing to have a large pool of such people to exploit. You can expect them to use every filthy trick, including mobilising the very large existing population of angry, alienated, sexually frustrated males to commit stochastic terrorism against anyone who seriously looks like succeeding in getting decent sex education taught. In fact you can observe it whenever anyone is stupid enough to try.
A first big step to fixing some of this shit would be to recognize that genders are bullshit. Looking at differences between cultures and even between time periods of the same culture, makes that readily apparent. If there was real biology basis behind them, we wouldn't have seen the variation between what makes a man and what makes a woman fluctuate so damn much. What we should recognize is that most, if not all, gender norms were put forward by insecure hateful assholes, that wanted to exercise control on society. Being the violent dickhead that just takes shit, was a norm pushed by violent dickheads that gained powered and had their feefees hurt by the idea that a compassionate and cooperative man, might be considered a more attractive dating option than them. So they used their power to build a society that endorses the idea that men must be strong, tough, aggressive and uncompromising, while ridiculing those that didn't fit that mold. Not because it was good for society or that many actually wanted it, but because they had power to make society view them as the pinnacle of a man and were insecure about the idea of others thinking differently. Mind you, even in a patriarchy, it's not just shitty men setting bullshit standards, they might have set most of them, but they also help from shitty members of the opposite sex that were willing to take one over opportunities were presented to them. To put down others, in order assuage their own insecurities and exercise control where they could get it.
I suspect a shit ton of people would be much happier if life, if there worth wasn't immediately questioned because they had a hobby, interest, trade or habit that some shithead deemed unfit for their gender or even their sexual orientation. I remember in middle school, how a bunch of people thought I was gay because I crossed my legs, which was a habit I picked up because I saw my mom do it and didn't think a damn thing about it being a telegraph for one's sexuality because it has fuck all to do with who you find attractive, but dips shit troglodytes will always try find meaning in meaningless things.
Anyways, the incel movement is pulling the same plays that all the shitty regressive, rightwing movements pull. First they find a legitimate issue, in the case of incels it's that they find men who are lonely, have self-esteem issues and some behavior that makes women uncomfortable. Then rather than focus on real solutions or even directing the anger at those that actual did create the problem or amplify the negative impacts. They are given a bunch of bullshit and steered towards causing harm to marginalized groups. I like to call these the shit pearls of advice from the right. They take a legitimate grievance and coat in layer upon layer of bullshit. It's effective because there is an actual issue and incels aren't completely wrong in realizing that their issues aren't entirely on them. The problem is they blame the wrong people and pick incredibly hostile ways to handle their issues. It's not woman and minorities that are denying them the chance to developing meaningful relationships. It's the powerful, male oligarchs of rightwing society that have created an environment that is outright hostile to people being able to build healthy relationships. It's a destruction of third spaces; especially, the free ones. It's an intentional creation of an environment where people's time is spent evermore trying to survive the capitalistic hellscape we live in. It's an intentional creation of a cultural narrative that men must fit a bullshit stereotype that makes shitheads like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerburg, Bill O'Reilly, Jordan Peterson, Tucker Carlson and every other shithead with money and influence, feel good about themselves. It's a narrative that tries to sell them as a pinnacle of being a man. They of course also push for setups where they can crowd out competing narratives, like Musk doesn't want to ban incels and MRA types from twitter because he fucking is one and once they get banned, that creates more pressure to move away from toxic social models that only benefit wealthy, rightwing men.
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They will react negatively to examples of positive maculinity now, it will only reinforce their beliefs. This is why you cant reach the current ones. Its not like a cult, it is a cult.
So there was a post on r/TwoXChromosomes recently about this (but reddit, anecdotes, etc. but let's go with "I assume no one bothered to fake this"): https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/14mzvhc/i_interviewed_a_bunch_of_incels_as_part_of_a_film/
In it, the note of someone's observations in talking to incels has these insights, which line up with basically what I expect:
For a while, people were strongly lauding celebrities for positive behaviors, notably Keanu Reeves for being down to earth and sensitive, as well as Dave Grohl for his generosity and dedication, etc.
The strong male role models are out there, and their existence doesnt preclude female role models from having the same traits.
We just need to make the jump from lauding individuals with laudable traits, into saying those traits are good for all people (so as to avoid the inevitable milkshake ducks). Instead of trying to divide traits into female or male.
MWO: Adamski
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
As a WASPy person I would love to try and build strong family relationships and mutual support networks.
But my introvert tendencies mean I spend most of my free time hiding from social situations.
MWO: Adamski
A positive male role model is going to display the traits we would encourage for anybody. They would just do it while also demonstrating something masculine, like wearing a tie or some bullshit. Being stoic isn't masculine, it's human. Growing a mustache is masculine, and even things like that are fluid and subject to cultural change.
All in my humble opinion, of course.
The problem of course is that this is also awful (there's no such thing as good stereotyping, it's an oxymoron), but it's definitely going to be less awful than the current one.
So in the interest of pragmatism, I don't think it's a terrible stop gap. I don't believe in perfect ideal good solutions (lol, lmao). But changing the conversation around it so it's not even necessary is the real long term solution that will be even better.
Like all real solutions, it's difficult, takes a long time, will get resisted and mocked by people locked into traditional ways, requires a concerted effort by a large group to spread awareness and activism, and isn't necessarily going to fix what's happening right now. If you want to actually change things permanently you'll need to roll up your sleeves and push through that.
I wonder if that's just millennials or if single guys in their 30s in other generations were also typically bitter.
To start and to bounce off some of the other things I've seen in this thread: I guess my specific thoughts are that there is very much a gap in society for the existence of masculine role models for boys and young men. I understand the inherent pushback against the concept of masculinity or even femininity in this, our enlightened and progressive forum space, but from what I've seen and experienced a large portion of dudes are basically Dude and that's all they really need out of life. I'm like that, personally. So telling a kid who's broiled over with testosterone that the concept of "manliness" is inherently a societal construct and isn't real and that his perceived identity and existence is fundamentally flawed may ultimately be correct its just not going to actually work.
That's why we see people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate and even the more gateway assholes like Joe Rogan gaining such widespread popularity amongst those young men. They're out there presenting a version of masculinity that at the surface seems to present an image of confidence and sufficiency and the classic rough and tumble persona that all the ladies swoon over. Obviously their real message is a hyper toxic, ingrown, narcissistic one of dominance and denial that's causing irreparable damage to a generation of boys. But it's there and it's super accessible and it offers an immediate answer to "what's it mean to be a man in this confusing modern age?" It's a question a lot of boys have and I feel like we haven't done a very good job of offering up alternatives to that.
I don't know if that specific question has always existed? Maybe it has and the answer just changes from generation to generation which makes nailing down a consistent answer difficult. To bring this back around to the subject I mentioned above, I think one of the primary contributors to this particular generational issue is how easily accessible the internet is to an increasingly younger generation of children, male and female. Young dudes in particular are accessing a lot of information at very early, formative ages, especially pornography.
I kinda just missed the major internet boom growing up and didn't really have that kind of access to stuff until I was in my mid teens and it still absolutely fucked me up in a lot of ways. Being raised hyper conservative and religious where even the passing mention of sex devolved into hushed whispers and shameful feet staring, internet pornography was my only real peek, and for a very (very unfortunately) long time, my only understanding of heteronormative sex. And folks that ain't good! I can only imagine Gen Z has been inundated with that a lot earlier than I was now that internet access is even more ubiquitous and difficult to control and they are way more tech savvy than even my generation is despite only really being about 4 to 5 years difference between the youngest Millennials and oldest Gen Z'ers.
I think I can probably tie a good bit of my own early self loathing about my body and feelings of frustration and disenfranchisement into my having accessed porn from a younger age than was probably healthy. I was only ever given one idea of what sex was and that idea is largely warped and fake but nobody is really telling you that as a kid. Nobody is saying to these young guys "hey, 99% of actual real human sex is not what you're seeing in porn. In order to be found desirable you do not necessarily have to be a jacked "Alpha Male" with a 10 inch dick." Because, well for one thing, you aren't telling any authority figures in your life that you're even looking at it in the first place. If you're unlucky enough to be raised in a conservative religious environment you're going to be told porn is nasty and disgusting in God's eyes not necessarily because the content is wildly inaccurate but just because it's a sin. That adds in that double whammy of guilt and self loathing from feeling like you're doing something gross and unnatural despite your body chemistry figuratively shaking you by the shoulders and screaming FUCKING PROCREEEEEAAAATEEEEEE at you 24/7.
To be clear, I don't think the existence of porn itself is the problem, it's more the lack of straight talk around it due to America's ingrained puritanical beliefs. Guys don't see the debunking of porn-normal sex until way too late when it's already ground into their cerebellum or whatever. So you have this kind of huge facet of somebody's earliest exposure to sex and the opposite sex saying that "this is what makes you a man" and "this is what women want" and if you don't fit that box you're left holding the bag trying to figure out why you feel so gross and unwanted. From there you go one of two ways: route one is you internalize that and assume there's something wrong with you and it's your fault and you are inherently unlovable. This is the Juggs route and probably why I didn't veer into that incel shit when I got older. I just figured it was me pulling a bad draw and not necessarily anybody else's fault. So I never projected my insecurities onto the outside world so much as I just beat the shit out of myself constantly for years. The other route is you hit that same idea that there's maybe something wrong with you but then ride it straight into anger and the understanding that it's society's fault you don't feel worthy not your own.
That's where the incels come in, and as shitty as it is I can understand some of that anger. There has been a very big push for body positivity in the media but it some times feels like it only applies to women or there's some kind of double standard around it. A dude is still expected to be muscular or big and strong and if you really want to cut a guy to the quick with no effort insinuate he's got a small dick. It's the go to insult in real life and in media. My girlfriend will do it all the time to people on the road. If somebody is driving a big lifted truck or whatever the standard epithet to sling at them is "sorry about your dick, bro." And she's a wildly progressive, inclusive, bi woman. I've seen it here on the forums. But it's so cut into society that a dudes worth is his penis taking a metaphorical swing at it can make or break his reputation. Its in porn, its in TV, its in movies, talk shows, everything. I've personally seen very little effort to combat that idea in the mainstream. It just doesn't seem to be a conversation that's happening or one that anybody want's to have. Now, where I differ from other chuds like the incels is that I recognize it's an entirely self inflicted wound and isn't some weird conspiracy concocted by evil Womyn and Liberal Progressive Cucks to castrate Mandom. It's dude-kind's own weird fetish shooting itself in the, well, dick.
So I think that's one thing that we need to figure out: how do we kind of corral young boys access to images of sex, a thing they are going to find, and at least present it in a way that's either healthier or at least give them the resources to make that distinction or ask the questions they need to ask in a safe space. How can we present the ideas of sex and desire in a way that breaks off from that toxic mold we've built for decades and decades?
This isn't my only driving thought on the concept of masculinity but it's one that I don't think gets a lot of attention. I'd keep going with more rambling stuff but I've already typed a way longer post than I initially meant to. I may take some more time to formulate some more of my ideas and feelings into coherent talky words later.
Edit: cleaned up some grammar and made some sentences more clear.
Double edit: an addendum I'll add to this is that I also think it cuts the other way just as negatively. If you're a young guy seeing this early on and you do fit that concept of warped masculinity then there's a very good possibility you end up thinking "sweet I've got it made no need to change anything or be introspective" and that's how you end up with those assholes who will whip their dicks out at women and commit sexual assault at the drop of a hat. In their own stunted mind they think they're the pinnacle of desirability and probably can't even conceive that what they're doing is actually a horrible crime. Because that's what women, want right? They want an aggressive alpha? So, say, Trump "grabbing em by the pussy" wasn't wrong it was the natural manifestation of how a man should act around a woman and what a woman secretly wants.
I had a friend who was an attractive bartender at a shitty sports bar and the absolute horror stories I heard from her that routinely had me asking "Kasey why the fuck did you not immediately call the police?" Men either think that's what women find attractive or men think that's what they're owed and the only way to get it is by being filthy grunting apes who go out and take it.
That PUA shit that started in the mid 2010s and then warped into modern incels I think are just one side of the same coin of stunted sexual growth that comes from the root question of "masculinity" and what it entails. It's a problem we desperately need to tackle because it's causing literal damage to people's lives on both sides of this issue. For every dipshit that lashes out violently at society there's somebody like me who suffers in silence for years and years without ever really knowing why.
Not sure that's as fair a comparison really, if anything I'd almost say that if we're taking pop culture has vaguely something that resonates with enough people to work (yeah I know, but bear with me), and the general trend across society more towards violence, it kind of seems that there were a lot of bitter married people in those earlier generations too. Something that I think literature suggests predated leaded gas (though before that, men did tend to marry later).
Gen Z and the next one are apparently less sex than earlier generations did at their age. Might be to less booze, even more instability, finally getting a knack on family planning education or residual lead, but there's also that element of looking back to the previous generation's experience and not having that expectation met as well. Or even the cold and heartless nature of stats, it could just be the focus on the incel movement is that beersoaked "acceptably rapey" underbelly of society finally fizzling out and calcifying into this cult.
And I mean I thought I had pretty unimpressive sex ed as a kid and then I met people who literally were not told what happens in any way, just to avoid the opposite sex. Also that you’d get every STI if you didn’t avoid them.
The problem is you won't get it.
I was given christ centered abstinence only sex education in 8th or 9th grade. That's it. That's all I ever got. I never got "The Talk" or anything from any authority figures in my life.
And any attempt to push through actual, fact based sexual education will be met by a cacophony of howler monkeys screaming about corrupting children and how we have to get God back in schools. It's infuriating because it's causing significant harm to so many kids and they just refuse to acknowledge the issue.
That directly hurts everybody though and isn't necessarily just a male problem. But I think there's a lot of confusion about male sexuality that nobody is offering any answers to.
I suspect a shit ton of people would be much happier if life, if there worth wasn't immediately questioned because they had a hobby, interest, trade or habit that some shithead deemed unfit for their gender or even their sexual orientation. I remember in middle school, how a bunch of people thought I was gay because I crossed my legs, which was a habit I picked up because I saw my mom do it and didn't think a damn thing about it being a telegraph for one's sexuality because it has fuck all to do with who you find attractive, but dips shit troglodytes will always try find meaning in meaningless things.
Anyways, the incel movement is pulling the same plays that all the shitty regressive, rightwing movements pull. First they find a legitimate issue, in the case of incels it's that they find men who are lonely, have self-esteem issues and some behavior that makes women uncomfortable. Then rather than focus on real solutions or even directing the anger at those that actual did create the problem or amplify the negative impacts. They are given a bunch of bullshit and steered towards causing harm to marginalized groups. I like to call these the shit pearls of advice from the right. They take a legitimate grievance and coat in layer upon layer of bullshit. It's effective because there is an actual issue and incels aren't completely wrong in realizing that their issues aren't entirely on them. The problem is they blame the wrong people and pick incredibly hostile ways to handle their issues. It's not woman and minorities that are denying them the chance to developing meaningful relationships. It's the powerful, male oligarchs of rightwing society that have created an environment that is outright hostile to people being able to build healthy relationships. It's a destruction of third spaces; especially, the free ones. It's an intentional creation of an environment where people's time is spent evermore trying to survive the capitalistic hellscape we live in. It's an intentional creation of a cultural narrative that men must fit a bullshit stereotype that makes shitheads like Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerburg, Bill O'Reilly, Jordan Peterson, Tucker Carlson and every other shithead with money and influence, feel good about themselves. It's a narrative that tries to sell them as a pinnacle of being a man. They of course also push for setups where they can crowd out competing narratives, like Musk doesn't want to ban incels and MRA types from twitter because he fucking is one and once they get banned, that creates more pressure to move away from toxic social models that only benefit wealthy, rightwing men.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.