I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
I’m honestly still trying to decide whether Olivia Jade Gianulli should be expelled or not. I mean her admission was based on fraud and she literally said she was going to “talk to the deans and stuff” about balancing her Instagram career and class, because she “doesn’t care about school” and mainly just wants to go to football games and party...
...but it’s just so perfectly on-brand for USC I’m not sure they have a leg to stand on.
Slightly off topic, but she would redeem herself in my eyes if she voluntarily quit USC and instead went to ASU.
...because apparently, according to the transcripts, that's the kind of college her parents were afraid she'd end up. Even though Lori Laughin's first husband graduated there, and is now Vice Chairman at Lionsgate.
Honestly, I kind of find the most frustrating thing about all of this is the underlying facet of this scandal that will not get subjected to nearly as much scrutiny. The bullshit belief that so many people have, and will continue to hold, that being a Harvard Grad actually does make someone inherently better than someone else. Not to suggest that there is absolutely no qualitative difference in colleges. But the belief that the hierarchy places the pinnacle so high, and makes the summit so narrow when...it just isn't.
I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
I seriously doubt half these kids are half as innocent as is being claimed. I mean, you get recruited for a uni crew team, but never rowed crew in your life, and don't think that's funny?
These kids are either dumber than rocks, or hiding behind the thinnest possible strands of plausible deniability.
I’m honestly still trying to decide whether Olivia Jade Gianulli should be expelled or not. I mean her admission was based on fraud and she literally said she was going to “talk to the deans and stuff” about balancing her Instagram career and class, because she “doesn’t care about school” and mainly just wants to go to football games and party...
...but it’s just so perfectly on-brand for USC I’m not sure they have a leg to stand on.
...the way I want to respond to this "argument" would get me jailed, so let me say this - I wasn't some wealthy scion, and neither were the vast majority of my classmates. The fact that these dilettantes scammed their way into my alma mater pisses me off, because no, most of us were there to learn.
Apologies, I’d hope you know I didn’t mean any personal offense. My grandfather went to USC as well, and he wasn’t a trust-funder. Everybody who’s not an idiot knows that most people who go to most schools are there to learn, and that reputations like the one I was alluding to are largely the result of the fringes of the student body. It says something that the school you went to is high profile enough to even *have* a reputation.
Honestly, I kind of find the most frustrating thing about all of this is the underlying facet of this scandal that will not get subjected to nearly as much scrutiny. The bullshit belief that so many people have, and will continue to hold, that being a Harvard Grad actually does make someone inherently better than someone else. Not to suggest that there is absolutely no qualitative difference in colleges. But the belief that the hierarchy places the pinnacle so high, and makes the summit so narrow when...it just isn't.
Yeah, a degree from Harvard serves largely as either a class signifier, or evidence that you were able (at a young age) to substantially outperform your previous class. It’s not any real measure of current potential or performance. Especially because the two groups mentioned will vary considerably in ability.
This story both infuriates and delights me to no end. On the one hand it is disgusting these people literally bought their way into what, supposedly, should be earned with hard work. On the other hand, everyone knows the system is gained on some level and it's amusing to see that confirmed to no end.
Also, the idea that being white and the child of multimillionaire parents still isn't enough of an advantage to go to the school you want and requires straight up bribes is fantastic. Like, your kid already went to the best schools, had access to how many tutors, the resources to do every extracurricular under the sun, and STILL was such a collosal fuck up you couldn't get in?
The students should be expelled and invited to reapply with their actual CVs and the parents should be punished. However, we live in the darkest timeline where nothing matters and white crime definitely does pay so I fully expect that nothing happens.
Personally, I haven't ever wanted to go to the Ivy League, but I understand the importance of such places if you want to go into business, law, or whatever just by being close to those circles. Although, given that these schools already directly admit legacy students at a greater rate than the entire volume of students of color (in addition to slots straight up purchased by the white and rich) it solidifies that these same families will remain in control of these institutions in perpeuity.
Expell all the kids. The entire system is fictitious anyway and getting a degree is orthogonal to getting an education. If you got the degree by fraud you should have it revoked. Good luck revoking whatever education these kids managed to scrape together in the course of the degree process!
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect fit, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
Expell all the kids. The entire system is fictitious anyway and getting a degree is orthogonal to getting an education. If you got the degree by fraud you should have it revoked. Good luck revoking whatever education these kids managed to scrape together in the course of the degree process!
I'm not sure you can unless they're failing classes or grossly violating school policy. I would just say I had no idea as a student that this went on. And while I know the NCAA loves to punish the victim, I'm not sure colleges at large can necessarily do that without a bunch of unnecessary bad press. They got the people running the scam and that's probably all that matters. Though if all these fraudulent students were successful in college, this is obviously yet another example of how pointless standardized exams are for college.
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
They "cheat" by using their wealth which is what defines their "caste." Is the proof that they belong in the wealthy class.
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
If you don't have money and/or access to good education/prep for college (usually requiring money), you're relegated to a lower socio-economic status that doesn't reflect any merit of the individual.
These people got their kids into college because they had enough money to commit fraud, but they did not have enough to buy their way in for real.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Given the amount of legal and socially acceptable bribery involved in University Admissions...how dumb are these kids?
Only as dumb as one becomes from a lifetime of having parents who pay to have all your obstacles removed.
edit: I wouldn't complain if all the kids got expelled; it's only taking away something they didn't have a right to, maybe they can try to transfer credits for classes they actually passed. If we were talking about anyone other than (by definition) rich kids, I'd be worried about ruining their future prospects, but let's face it, that's never going to be a real danger.
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
If you don't have money and/or access to good education/prep for college (usually requiring money), you're relegated to a lower socio-economic status that doesn't reflect any merit of the individual.
These people got their kids into college because they had enough money to commit fraud, but they did not have enough to buy their way in for real.
Some. I think some did it because they legitimately wanted to present the image that their kids earned it. I mean Mossimo Giannulli has money. So does Laughlin. They paid $500K to get their girls into USC. It only cost $2.5M to get Kushner into Harvard. I struggle to believe that the gap between those two is something these parents couldn't manage, I think they could have bought the admissions "properly."
Yeah at this point if you're not in a thesis program (or similar grad/post-grad track like med/law), a college degree basically means jack shit. That is why everyone wants internships these days.
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
If you don't have money and/or access to good education/prep for college (usually requiring money), you're relegated to a lower socio-economic status that doesn't reflect any merit of the individual.
These people got their kids into college because they had enough money to commit fraud, but they did not have enough to buy their way in for real.
Some. I think some did it because they legitimately wanted to present the image that their kids earned it. I mean Mossimo Giannulli has money. So does Laughlin. They paid $500K to get their girls into USC. It only cost $2.5M to get Kushner into Harvard. I struggle to believe that the gap between those two is something these parents couldn't manage, I think they could have bought the admissions "properly."
In 1999. Gotta adjust for inflation. Today that would be: $3,830,066. Also, Harvard accepts half the number of applicants today compared to then. So probably somewhere closer to $8m than the $4m that CPI gets you.
Harvard also has the funds to massively expand enrollment without diminishing the quality of education. The scarcity of the slots is important.
Its part of the draw. An Elite School with global networking opportunities with spots only given to people that enhance the schools rep. Letting in Plebs is a good way to dilute the brand.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
While I ultimately agree, the problem is moral hazard. If I were unethical, I would literally start contemplating whether I should engage in this behavior to get my daughter into Harvard now that I know it's an option in the wake of this scandal. I'm confident there are other firms offering similar services. If found out, the blowback only hits me as long as I keep my daughter in the dark. But she will get to keep her spot/degree. That's arguably worth it to give her a better life.
I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
While I ultimately agree, the problem is moral hazard. If I were unethical, I would literally start contemplating whether I should engage in this behavior to get my daughter into Harvard now that I know it's an option in the wake of this scandal. I'm confident there are other firms offering similar services. If found out, the blowback only hits me as long as I keep my daughter in the dark. But she will get to keep her spot/degree. That's arguably worth it to give her a better life.
The fact that it's a pay-to-win system anyway reduces the ethical concern here though (doesn't eliminate, but reduces). It's not like, say, bribing your way into a chess tournament with fake documents where it's assumed the game is legitimate (or paying other players to be 'jobbers' so you can win a supposedly fair tournament). It's more like somehow making fake or duped Hearthstone cards. The issue is not that the fake cards were affecting the integrity of the game because you could already buy any card you want anyway, it's that it was stealing money from blizzard.
Similarly it is hard to argue this behavior is really hurting society any more than the traditional admissions bribe 'donation' system. If anything the harm is that the bribe money is going to random coaches and businessmen rather than the institution itself where it could theoretically do some good, but it isn't hurting the integrity of the meritocratic system because the meritocratic system was already long compromised.
The point is what we are punishing the kids for. If it is that a deserving person got passed over for the spot, then what's the difference between the kid that got passed over for a legacy bribe? If it's because person A got bribed instead of the correct person or institution B, then maybe we should only blame the kids if they were involved or at least knew something was going on, and leave the punishment to the parents otherwise, because the kid didn't know they should give money to a college president instead of a crew coach.
I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
While I ultimately agree, the problem is moral hazard. If I were unethical, I would literally start contemplating whether I should engage in this behavior to get my daughter into Harvard now that I know it's an option in the wake of this scandal. I'm confident there are other firms offering similar services. If found out, the blowback only hits me as long as I keep my daughter in the dark. But she will get to keep her spot/degree. That's arguably worth it to give her a better life.
The fact that it's a pay-to-win system anyway reduces the ethical concern here though (doesn't eliminate, but reduces). It's not like, say, bribing your way into a chess tournament with fake documents where it's assumed the game is legitimate (or paying other players to be 'jobbers' so you can win a supposedly fair tournament). It's more like somehow making fake or duped Hearthstone cards. The issue is not that the fake cards were affecting the integrity of the game because you could already buy any card you want anyway, it's that it was stealing money from blizzard.
Similarly it is hard to argue this behavior is really hurting society any more than the traditional admissions bribe 'donation' system. If anything the harm is that the bribe money is going to random coaches and businessmen rather than the institution itself where it could theoretically do some good, but it isn't hurting the integrity of the meritocratic system because the meritocratic system was already long compromised.
I'd go even further and say that the traditional system is more blatantly corrupt - "Donate $1.5 million for this new building, and I hope your child enjoys their freshman year at our fine university!" These people were in the position where they knew that you had to buy your way in, but they were just not rich enough to do it the proper way.
Interesting perspectives and I understand the logic. If you take the position that the fraud itself wasn't socially harmful, because "the game was rigged from the start", then revoking admission or credentials makes no logical sense. The only downside to keeping the admissions and credentials in place is after all that it incentives future fraud.
I'm afraid I don't agree with the premise though. I think this admissions fraud was socially harmful and should be prevented to the extent possible. To me, the fact this fraud was bad is unaffected by whether "institutional donations can buy access" is also bad.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
I don't think most of these kids will be expelled. It makes another news cycle about this the universities would like to avoid, and a university's first instinct when it comes to anything of this nature is to make it as invisible as possible.
yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
I seriously doubt half these kids are half as innocent as is being claimed. I mean, you get recruited for a uni crew team, but never rowed crew in your life, and don't think that's funny?
These kids are either dumber than rocks, or hiding behind the thinnest possible strands of plausible deniability.
Eh, I can easily imagine as a wealthy 18-year-old
-not giving a shit or paying the least amount of attention
-seeing that you were receiving a benefit or incentive that makes no logical sense, and being totally accustomed to that kind of thing
That's kind of important to understanding why we're in this situation: people, including the rich, just develop a sense that the way things are is the way they ought to be. We all do little things that a person of less means might be unable to do in order to get an advantage, or that a person of lesser status would face consequences for. People don't have to be moustache-twirling villains to be perpetuating the worst evils in our society, and you don't have to hate them personally to be in favor of violently redistributing their wealth to the needy.
Interesting perspectives and I understand the logic. If you take the position that the fraud itself wasn't socially harmful, because "the game was rigged from the start", then revoking admission or credentials makes no logical sense. The only downside to keeping the admissions and credentials in place is after all that it incentives future fraud.
I'm afraid I don't agree with the premise though. I think this admissions fraud was socially harmful and should be prevented to the extent possible. To me, the fact this fraud was bad is unaffected by whether "institutional donations can buy access" is also bad.
I think it's really something that comes down to a judgment call, once you get beyond whether the kid knew or was involved (like if they were talking about or filled out forms their crew scholarship while they never have been on a boat that's a different situation than the kid whose parents went to the trouble of making a fake ACT testing session so the kid thought it was legit.)
If you have someone barely skating by with a D average I think that's a lot more compelling harm to society than someone with a 4.0 and their name on a published study, or who has been accepted into a professional school, or whatever.
Harvard also has the funds to massively expand enrollment without diminishing the quality of education. The scarcity of the slots is important.
Harvard has the funds to cancel tuition entirely while maintaining scarcity! But it's important to remember that the 'quality of education' isn't a metric we can comment on because we don't know anything about how educated the graduates are, or whether their alleged education was of assistance, and if so how much, or if graduates are working in their chosen fields or even if they have a job.
What we can say is that the degree is a lever that opens lots of doors, and for that to be true it must be scarce, so that the doors it opens are elite, so that future elites want the degree to open the doors.
The education itself is secondary, and whether a given student retains any of the education is unknown.
At this point, hopefully there are only two types of people who are impressed with an Ivy League degree alone:
1. People from an Ivy League school who has deluded themselves into thinking they are the best, and their schools are the best,
2. The truly ignorant.
Hopefully this scandal can decrease people in #2. Ivy League schools can be good, but people take them as some sort of gold standard when they never have been.
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Are USC, Stanford, and Georgetown Ivy League schools now? Why are we discussing this like it's an Ivy League issue exclusively? Of the six universities named so far, exactly 1 is an Ivy (Yale). Since they don't generally give athletic scholarships, they're actually relatively less affected by this particular type of cheating...
Are USC, Stanford, and Georgetown Ivy League schools now? Why are we discussing this like it's an Ivy League issue exclusively? Of the six universities named so far, exactly 1 is an Ivy (Yale). Since they don't generally give athletic scholarships, they're actually relatively less affected by this particular type of cheating...
Yes, Stanford definitely is in the same ranking.
The Ivy League is both a literal sports league and a vague ranking of the nation's most exclusive private schools. Duke, Stanford, MIT, University of Chicago, and Northwestern are generally referred to as the Ivy Plus.
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yeah i think the only student who unquestionably should be expelled is the one that is named in the suit as being actively involved in falsifying their SAT scores
the rest, maybe? case-by-case basis? i'm not sure the sins of their parents should be visited on them, even if it'd be cathartic as fuck to see a bunch of rich kids booted
Slightly off topic, but she would redeem herself in my eyes if she voluntarily quit USC and instead went to ASU.
...because apparently, according to the transcripts, that's the kind of college her parents were afraid she'd end up. Even though Lori Laughin's first husband graduated there, and is now Vice Chairman at Lionsgate.
These kids are either dumber than rocks, or hiding behind the thinnest possible strands of plausible deniability.
Apologies, I’d hope you know I didn’t mean any personal offense. My grandfather went to USC as well, and he wasn’t a trust-funder. Everybody who’s not an idiot knows that most people who go to most schools are there to learn, and that reputations like the one I was alluding to are largely the result of the fringes of the student body. It says something that the school you went to is high profile enough to even *have* a reputation.
Yeah, a degree from Harvard serves largely as either a class signifier, or evidence that you were able (at a young age) to substantially outperform your previous class. It’s not any real measure of current potential or performance. Especially because the two groups mentioned will vary considerably in ability.
Also, the idea that being white and the child of multimillionaire parents still isn't enough of an advantage to go to the school you want and requires straight up bribes is fantastic. Like, your kid already went to the best schools, had access to how many tutors, the resources to do every extracurricular under the sun, and STILL was such a collosal fuck up you couldn't get in?
The students should be expelled and invited to reapply with their actual CVs and the parents should be punished. However, we live in the darkest timeline where nothing matters and white crime definitely does pay so I fully expect that nothing happens.
Personally, I haven't ever wanted to go to the Ivy League, but I understand the importance of such places if you want to go into business, law, or whatever just by being close to those circles. Although, given that these schools already directly admit legacy students at a greater rate than the entire volume of students of color (in addition to slots straight up purchased by the white and rich) it solidifies that these same families will remain in control of these institutions in perpeuity.
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Excuse my incandescent rage. Any parent who did that needs the book thrown at them. Multiple books, preferably.
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Ok diplomas that came out of that need to get in the shredder and then set on fire.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
As someone with 15 years of work experience without a college degree, this is a load of bullshit. No matter how much experience I have, without that piece of paper there are many, many jobs that I could apply for where I would be a perfect fit, but no human will ever look at my application because it is thrown out by the computer. Many have a very rigid requirement for a degree for a position you and I may not say needs a degree, but we don't run the system.
That system is why they're basically meaningless. Its just a filtering system for applications now.
Its actually a negative value to their recruiting efforts because they're filtering out dedicated people who don't have degrees like you.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Ok?
How does that help me, or hopefully these rich kids, find a job that says I must have that piece of paper? Convince the head of HR to change the system so I can apply?
Sure as individuals you need to do what you need to do.
I just think that our education system has turned into a defacto caste system of wealth and access, and this story highlights that.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
How so? I think this story highlights how the education system as a whole is actively trying to not continue the caste system. If the education system were a defacto caste system of wealth and access these parents wouldnt have needed to cheat that system to get their kids into their school of choice.
I'm not sure you can unless they're failing classes or grossly violating school policy. I would just say I had no idea as a student that this went on. And while I know the NCAA loves to punish the victim, I'm not sure colleges at large can necessarily do that without a bunch of unnecessary bad press. They got the people running the scam and that's probably all that matters. Though if all these fraudulent students were successful in college, this is obviously yet another example of how pointless standardized exams are for college.
They "cheat" by using their wealth which is what defines their "caste." Is the proof that they belong in the wealthy class.
Imo, but I'm feeling rather cynical
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If you don't have money and/or access to good education/prep for college (usually requiring money), you're relegated to a lower socio-economic status that doesn't reflect any merit of the individual.
These people got their kids into college because they had enough money to commit fraud, but they did not have enough to buy their way in for real.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Only as dumb as one becomes from a lifetime of having parents who pay to have all your obstacles removed.
edit: I wouldn't complain if all the kids got expelled; it's only taking away something they didn't have a right to, maybe they can try to transfer credits for classes they actually passed. If we were talking about anyone other than (by definition) rich kids, I'd be worried about ruining their future prospects, but let's face it, that's never going to be a real danger.
Some. I think some did it because they legitimately wanted to present the image that their kids earned it. I mean Mossimo Giannulli has money. So does Laughlin. They paid $500K to get their girls into USC. It only cost $2.5M to get Kushner into Harvard. I struggle to believe that the gap between those two is something these parents couldn't manage, I think they could have bought the admissions "properly."
In 1999. Gotta adjust for inflation. Today that would be: $3,830,066. Also, Harvard accepts half the number of applicants today compared to then. So probably somewhere closer to $8m than the $4m that CPI gets you.
Twice as many apply. They have roughly the same number of slots.
Its part of the draw. An Elite School with global networking opportunities with spots only given to people that enhance the schools rep. Letting in Plebs is a good way to dilute the brand.
While I ultimately agree, the problem is moral hazard. If I were unethical, I would literally start contemplating whether I should engage in this behavior to get my daughter into Harvard now that I know it's an option in the wake of this scandal. I'm confident there are other firms offering similar services. If found out, the blowback only hits me as long as I keep my daughter in the dark. But she will get to keep her spot/degree. That's arguably worth it to give her a better life.
The fact that it's a pay-to-win system anyway reduces the ethical concern here though (doesn't eliminate, but reduces). It's not like, say, bribing your way into a chess tournament with fake documents where it's assumed the game is legitimate (or paying other players to be 'jobbers' so you can win a supposedly fair tournament). It's more like somehow making fake or duped Hearthstone cards. The issue is not that the fake cards were affecting the integrity of the game because you could already buy any card you want anyway, it's that it was stealing money from blizzard.
Similarly it is hard to argue this behavior is really hurting society any more than the traditional admissions bribe 'donation' system. If anything the harm is that the bribe money is going to random coaches and businessmen rather than the institution itself where it could theoretically do some good, but it isn't hurting the integrity of the meritocratic system because the meritocratic system was already long compromised.
The point is what we are punishing the kids for. If it is that a deserving person got passed over for the spot, then what's the difference between the kid that got passed over for a legacy bribe? If it's because person A got bribed instead of the correct person or institution B, then maybe we should only blame the kids if they were involved or at least knew something was going on, and leave the punishment to the parents otherwise, because the kid didn't know they should give money to a college president instead of a crew coach.
I'd go even further and say that the traditional system is more blatantly corrupt - "Donate $1.5 million for this new building, and I hope your child enjoys their freshman year at our fine university!" These people were in the position where they knew that you had to buy your way in, but they were just not rich enough to do it the proper way.
I'm afraid I don't agree with the premise though. I think this admissions fraud was socially harmful and should be prevented to the extent possible. To me, the fact this fraud was bad is unaffected by whether "institutional donations can buy access" is also bad.
Eh, I can easily imagine as a wealthy 18-year-old
-not giving a shit or paying the least amount of attention
-seeing that you were receiving a benefit or incentive that makes no logical sense, and being totally accustomed to that kind of thing
That's kind of important to understanding why we're in this situation: people, including the rich, just develop a sense that the way things are is the way they ought to be. We all do little things that a person of less means might be unable to do in order to get an advantage, or that a person of lesser status would face consequences for. People don't have to be moustache-twirling villains to be perpetuating the worst evils in our society, and you don't have to hate them personally to be in favor of violently redistributing their wealth to the needy.
I think it's really something that comes down to a judgment call, once you get beyond whether the kid knew or was involved (like if they were talking about or filled out forms their crew scholarship while they never have been on a boat that's a different situation than the kid whose parents went to the trouble of making a fake ACT testing session so the kid thought it was legit.)
If you have someone barely skating by with a D average I think that's a lot more compelling harm to society than someone with a 4.0 and their name on a published study, or who has been accepted into a professional school, or whatever.
Harvard has the funds to cancel tuition entirely while maintaining scarcity! But it's important to remember that the 'quality of education' isn't a metric we can comment on because we don't know anything about how educated the graduates are, or whether their alleged education was of assistance, and if so how much, or if graduates are working in their chosen fields or even if they have a job.
What we can say is that the degree is a lever that opens lots of doors, and for that to be true it must be scarce, so that the doors it opens are elite, so that future elites want the degree to open the doors.
The education itself is secondary, and whether a given student retains any of the education is unknown.
1. People from an Ivy League school who has deluded themselves into thinking they are the best, and their schools are the best,
2. The truly ignorant.
Hopefully this scandal can decrease people in #2. Ivy League schools can be good, but people take them as some sort of gold standard when they never have been.
Yes, Stanford definitely is in the same ranking.
The Ivy League is both a literal sports league and a vague ranking of the nation's most exclusive private schools. Duke, Stanford, MIT, University of Chicago, and Northwestern are generally referred to as the Ivy Plus.