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[Trash Talk/Harassment] in sports
Jebus314
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So there has been some discussion lately about where is the line between trash talking and harassment in the NBA. Which strikes me as a particularly odd conversation, since trash talking is by it's very nature a form of harassment. There are as I see it a few things to break down and discuss here.
1. Is all trash talk harassment, and should it be allowed in sports?
I can't, for example, walk around my office belittling the abilities of my coworkers and telling them they should quit or get a new job. I would rightly be fired for creating a hostile work environment. Yet we accept that this is just part and parcel of the work environment for professional athletes. Does that make any sense?
Personally I am pro-trash talking. I think in a purely competitive environment (pro sports) you have to accept that the dynamics will be different than one where ostensibly people are working together (typical office environment). If you are creating an environment that expects a certain drive to be better than everyone else, I see no reason why you can't allow some amount of verbalization of this emotion. Both between athletes, but also between players and athletes.
2. If trash talk is allowed, where do you draw the line between the allowed harassment and not allowed harassment?
Are racist remarks ok? Homophobic? Misogynistic? What about non-stereotyping trash talk but at events for teenagers (high school sports), or even younger kids? Do the lines for what are and are not acceptable change for player/player interactions and player/fan interactions?
As a jumping off point for discussion, the article that started me thinking was this one, wherein Russel Westbrook (a professional basketball player) had a bad interaction with a fan at a recent NBA game. Salient points:
The fan was banned for life from the stadium, Westbrook was fined 25K, which is on par with fines he would get for saying officiating during a game was bad. That seems very uneven to me considering who sad what.
Did the fan cross the line between acceptable and non-acceptable "trash talk?" Should professional (and non-professional probably) sports do a better job of mediating the exchanges between players and fans, before things escalate they way they did at this particular event? What type of response is reasonable for players/fans who engage in excessive harassment? Is westbrook or harden the most disliked player in the NBA? Let's discuss.
1. Is all trash talk harassment, and should it be allowed in sports?
I can't, for example, walk around my office belittling the abilities of my coworkers and telling them they should quit or get a new job. I would rightly be fired for creating a hostile work environment. Yet we accept that this is just part and parcel of the work environment for professional athletes. Does that make any sense?
Personally I am pro-trash talking. I think in a purely competitive environment (pro sports) you have to accept that the dynamics will be different than one where ostensibly people are working together (typical office environment). If you are creating an environment that expects a certain drive to be better than everyone else, I see no reason why you can't allow some amount of verbalization of this emotion. Both between athletes, but also between players and athletes.
2. If trash talk is allowed, where do you draw the line between the allowed harassment and not allowed harassment?
Are racist remarks ok? Homophobic? Misogynistic? What about non-stereotyping trash talk but at events for teenagers (high school sports), or even younger kids? Do the lines for what are and are not acceptable change for player/player interactions and player/fan interactions?
As a jumping off point for discussion, the article that started me thinking was this one, wherein Russel Westbrook (a professional basketball player) had a bad interaction with a fan at a recent NBA game. Salient points:
According to Westbrook, the man told him to "get down on your knees like you're used to." Westbrook considered that comment to be "racial" and "inappropriate."
...
The fan, 45-year-old Shane Keisel, told ESPN that he did not cuss at Westbrook or say anything inappropriate. Keisel said the exchange "started off as fun" with him yelling at Westbrook to "ice those knees up!"
...
"He just went nuts," Keisel told ESPN.
....
"I'm going to tell you one thing: I'll f--- him up if he says that s--- again. I promise you," Westbrook said to a security guard behind the bench at the beginning of the video posted to Twitter. Westbrook then looks toward Keisel. "I promise you. You think I'm playing. I swear to God, I swear to God, I'll f--- you up. You and your wife, I'll f--- you up.
"I promise you, on everything I love. On everything I love, n----, I promise you."
The fan was banned for life from the stadium, Westbrook was fined 25K, which is on par with fines he would get for saying officiating during a game was bad. That seems very uneven to me considering who sad what.
Did the fan cross the line between acceptable and non-acceptable "trash talk?" Should professional (and non-professional probably) sports do a better job of mediating the exchanges between players and fans, before things escalate they way they did at this particular event? What type of response is reasonable for players/fans who engage in excessive harassment? Is westbrook or harden the most disliked player in the NBA? Let's discuss.
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
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I think the same principle should ideally apply to sports. How this would work in terms of an official event where you can't assume everyone is going to operate in good faith, I don't know.
I can tell you that straight up racism or homophobia or the like should be straight out. Like, ejected from the game out.
Like, yeah, maybe in like a game with good friends where you know them really well and everyone knows you are just kidding around or whatever but that's such an edge case we don't really need to consider it when we are discussing the issue.
But really, just no. It's just being a jerk and an asshole and it's entirely unnecessary. And you know how you can tell this the best? Cause we don't let kids do it. No one who isn't a terrible person is out there defending the right of kids and adults involved in youth sports leagues to be like "Yeah Jimmy, you tell that other 8 year old he's a piece of shit and you are gonna beat him so bad his father will never truly love him again! That's just part of the game!". Like, no, that's shitty behaviour and we all know it and any decent youth sports league I've ever been involved in or heard of takes a hard line on that crap. So why would it be acceptable for adults? You turn 18 and suddenly it's AOK to be an asshole? Nah.
And you can see the whole "trash talk" thing reach it's apex in video gaming. Where people feel free to be their freest shittiest self and it's a goddamn trashfire. (That people will still somehow defend too)
That is difficult to effectively police though. Because if I am a dick I can just say any and all trash talking makes me legit pissed off, and because I am not required to announce that before a game, someone will trash talk to me, I will say I am pissed, and they will need to be punished for harassment.
edit - actually I should clarify that you seem to be saying two different things. One is that the person who is being talked to gets to decide (I am legit pissed about you said), the other is that the intent of the talker is what matters (I was intending to hurt you with my comments rather than messing around).
The first is hard to police for the reason I gave, the second is hard to police because everyone will just say they were messing around and meant no harm.
As in fans should not be allowed to trash talk players, or players should not be allowed to trash talk fans?
Emotional abuse should not be acceptable anywhere. I can't see how this would be anything but obvious.
Players to fans.
What is emotional abuse though? I would say that given the expectations of an office work evironment, having someone tell me every day that I suck at my job would be very emotionally draining on me. But there have been times in my life when I played sports every day, and had people tell me I sucked at them every day, and I was totally fine (in fact I would say it even enhanced my experience).
Players have rightly expressed frustration though, because the NBA doesn't seem to give a shit about fans trash talking players that can get very excessive and racially motivated. So while I agree with you that it should never happen, it's also kind of understandable that the one way, un-curbed nature of letting the fans say whatever they want can be frustrating for the players.
That's just you accepting emotional abuse because you've been taught, erroneously, that it's ok in some situations. Your attitude there is literally the whole problem. Why should that be acceptable at all? Why is it suddenly ok to emotional abuse someone just because you are playing a sport?
I have no problem whatsoever with competitors saying things to anger or disrupt the other team/player.
"you're terrible at this game, go back to the minors"
"couldn't catch a beach ball"
Etc...
I see it as a verbalization of the emotion driving competitive sports. I am there to try and prove I am better than my competitors. Why can't I say that I think I am better them as well? I don't think it has to be emotionally abusive, and can in fact be a fun side competition to the actual competition.
Would you say it in any other setting? If not, why would you say it while playing a sport?
Like, the entire gist of this argument is "it's not emotional abuse cause we're wearing jerseys". This is an extremely dubious argument.
I think the idea, between competitors on a field of play, is that if you can get in the other person's head, you have the advantage on them. And when victories are won in lost in the details, shit talking probably can make a difference, though you could just as easily drive your opponent to win even harder. I guess a fan could make the same argument for shit talking the opposing players, but that's such a gray area....fans really shouldn't be talking to players at all.
It definitely applies elsewhere. Would you say an comedy writer who makes a joke at Trumps expense, knowing full well that Trump would see it and be angered, is committing harassment?
I suppose since it was wide spread I didn't think too much about it, and in Locrosse you can hit them within the rules so there is something. But the trash talk adds nothing.
Is the purpose of writing that to hurt Trump's feelings or to make the audience laugh?
Like, these two situations are nothing alike. Literally the whole justification for "trash talk" is to verbally abuse the other team to the point that you emotionally and mentally unbalance them. This is literally the whole idea used to defend it. The entire idea is that it's directly emotionally abusing someone. You can see an example directly above your post.
Nobody needs to have someone trying to belittle them during the spelling bee.
Maybe I'm just doing it because I enjoy the verbal back and forth. Like a form of competition wherein you try and see who can come up with the best zingers. Much in the same way a comedy roast is about trash talking a person for laughs, maybe even primarily about getting laughs from the person you are trash talking.
There are other reasons to enjoy it besides desiring to hurt the other persons feelings.
edit - I'm not sure I agree that "trying to get into someone's head" is directly analogous to abuse either. I might try and get in someone's head in all sorts of ways. Maybe I ask them something I think they will find super interesting and get distracted by. Maybe I ask them to explain how they did some amazing thing, in the hopes that they over analyze it and can't repeat it. These are all situations that are clearly not harassment but in which I am trying to "get into someone's head."
I don't think changing the tactic to just saying they are not good, or whatever form of trash talk you prefer, automatically makes it harassment.
Is that really what is going on? Let's be serious. That's not the reason anyone does it or gives for it.
That is 100% why I do it.
Fans heckling players gets a little dicier, but as long as they don’t say anything racist or LgBTq-phobic I generally don’t have a problem with it. Players are paid to be professional and part of that is ignoring distractions. If it becomes an issue where someone needs to be dealt with, venue security can and should handle that. There’s no call for a player to start banging his chest and act all tough because someone in the stands hurt their feelings. Remember “The Malice in the Palace?” Dudes were completely out of control.
Another one that just showed up again is noted shitbag and Knicks owner James Dolan. A fan yelled “sell the team” at him, nothing beyond that, and he ordered security to kick the fan out of the game. Not the first time he’s abused his authority like this either. Former Knicks star Charles Oakley is still banned from MSG because Dolan doesn’t like him.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Oh, is that what the other person thinks too? Are you sure?
This is a silly attempt to paint trash talk as something other then what it is. And you can literally see the argument most often used to defend trash talk in a post on this page. And elsewhere if you go a googling.
Again, there's a reason you don't see this shit flying in kids leagues. We all know what this actually is and we don't let children do it because we know it's wrong.
As a recipient every game of trash talk I can tell you that yes I enjoy the verbal sparring and then we all shake hands after and sometimes go for beers and talk about regular life stuff.
The incredible arrogance on display telling others "are you sure you mean what you say? Really!? " is something else.
Trash talk, chirping, teasing or whatever you call it happens between team members and friends too.
There is absolutely a gradient but trying to pin emotional abuser pins on anyone who disagrees with your line is ridiculous.
The removal of trash talking does not make for a poorer game and good sportsmanship makes for a more enjoyable to play and watch game.
The constant refrain of how the chirping is something players cannot avoid doing falls flat in 15 years of youth soccer experience. It is a matter of what is acceptable within the games culture and the culture is changeable. Enforce a rule change consistently and somehow the players adapt.
Hockey has penalties for actions that in other games could result in lifetime suspension from the sport. It has 2 minute penalties for actions that would get you ejected from the game in other sports. Clearly the culture of hockey is that these are permissible actions and that includes the unsportsmanlike conduct/trash talk. The normalization of what is permissable leads to some toxic behaviors becoming normalized both off and on the ice. I for one could do without a lot of the ugliness.
Kids leagues don't allow it. It is against the rules. Breaking those rules still happens, yes. That's why there's penalties and disciplinary actions and such. But we still codify that kids shouldn't be doing it. Because we know it's shitty behaviour.
And the only arrogance here is the assumption that obviously the other person you are abusing it enjoying the back and forth. Cause I'm sure you totally asked them first if they enjoyed some insulting repartee before verbally abusing them. That's totally a thing that happens.
when a guy with courtside seats is making racially charged remarks about a person? that's clearly unacceptable.
if i wanna shout hey scott foster you're an embarrassment to eyeballs from the 15th row i think that's fine.
My judgement of what is shitty behaviour doesn't align with yours.
If someone doesn't feel abused by it why does someone else get to say they are. I'm not a huge fan of some of the stuff that is said at a professional level and a big part of that is having to have listened to the Australian cricket team over the years. But I don't feel like the underlying concept of on field banter is the problem but more the culture the players and fans are sometimes immersed in. That is when bants go bad I think it's often a symptom of a shitty culture around that sport or league rather then the problem itself
The occasional player who seemed to just trash talk by default was viewed with something close to mild disdain. I never liked that behavior, it just seemed ... unnecessary and childish.
Dude, I know what you're getting at, and I think you have some good points, but "I know what your friends think about boundaries better than you do" is straight up absurd.
Yes, I am 100% no-backsies positive that when I trash talk with my friends, they are cool with it. It is not "emotional abuse" that we have been conditioned to accept, it is joking around that we have mutually agreed is within acceptable boundaries and find enjoyable. Some people are okay with this! You are not one of them, and that's perfectly fine! You do you!
To the larger point, I have operated on the assumption that a certain base level of trash talk is taken to be part of the game, and players are generally okay with it. If they genuinely see it as a form of emotional abuse - actual abuse, and not "if you ever say a sassy thing, that is abuse" - then it's something that should be weeded out.
On this score I think my response is basically "cry me a fucking river, NBA players."
Like seriously. Let the union take it up with the owners and have the first two seating rows removed or something, if they can.
There's a line crossed when fans feel like they have the right to shout racist abuse towards players in response. That is outside what is and what should be acceptable. Fans get away with it all the time because players know that they'll be fined or ejected and oftentimes the fan will not be punished at all. (Tangentially, Utah is infamous for racist crowds, and only this ONE time, when a superstar player rightly responded, did the team do anything. Shows you what the Jazz organization thinks about PR and how players should be treated in their arena.)
Saying that NBA players better just shut up and dribble is... well, problematic in a bunch of ways. I don't need to explicate why.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin