I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Gaming requires community, generally. Same with comics (traditionally you bought them in a specialty shop), which in my opinion has opened up to women a lot more in the past decade or two thanks to the rise of webcomics and the mainstreaming of comics into other retailers.
But gaming specifically involves walking into a room of CCG players, or joining an MMO guild, or voice chatting in deathmatches, or what have you, and all of those are places which are male dominated, which harass and objectify women who try to enter, etc.
This is probably one reason why women are more often gaming in solo spaces, like mobile/handheld.
The same is not true for, say, movies; there are no major spaces in that medium which men can keep male-centric, and we see what happens when there are such spaces (the Alamo Drafthouse, for example, and its issues with sexual harassment). Movies are mass media; games are mass media that is still sometimes niche media, and niche spaces make it easier for people to fight diversity, which in turn keeps them against diversity, makes them feel like women are the Other and not to be trusted or included.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
I agree that other factors, like social anxiety, are the most likely cause of social alienation of this group. The problem is that when you talk to alt right gamers, they don't agree that obvious things like being neuro-divergent are the reason they were socially shunned: they will literally tell you that games are the reason. A lot of alt-right communities are that way - like if you talk to incels, no matter how much you try to push them towards therapy, they will continue to beat the drum that the ONLY reason they aren't happy is because they are ugly (in a physical sense) and women are shallow - even though when you see their pictures, they're universally average-to-handsome.
This seems to be the ultimate underlying draw of any alt-right community; "you have no need to look within or do work to improve yourself or think about how your actions affect other people. Everything wrong with the world is entirely outside of your control and you are a victim of the RNG."
Cambiata on
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I mean, also note that even when my wife was planning on being a sci-fi/fantasy writer in the early 2000s, she was told that she'd probably be fine submitting fantasy, maybe, but sci-fi she'd probably need a new name. The alt-right might not have gotten the toe hold they wanted in geek lit, but even 10 years ago there were still issues with women being published, let alone anyone other than straight white male voices. It just didn't reach the fever pitch of "women and LGBTQ and POC are gonna ruin our stuff!" levels that games did, and I think that is due to the relative youth of the medium. Games, like home game systems are what? 40ish years old, about my age? Meanwhile literature of the sci-fi type we have now got it's starts at least around the 1920s with earlier material going back, hell, as far as freaking Gilgamesh. Video games as they exist in their current form have grown fast and with not a lot of room to account for that growth, and they grew in a time where everything was marketed to who you wanted to be.
Side note:
I remember clearly when I first started hating ads, a particular set of Dodge truck ads where Edward Herrmann was letting you know that Dodge, and by extension Dodge owners were simply better than other people, and I caught it, and I asked my mom if I'd actually just heard what I thought I'd heard, and she asked me, "well, what did you think ads were for? They make you feel bad about not having things you never knew you wanted so you'll buy them even if you don't need them". Needless to say, I was pissed and to this day I find 99% of ads to be condescending and harmful, and I am wary of marketing and it's entire thrust in life.
This only pertains to the subject matter inasmuch as it pertains to how games were sold, and in some ways continue to be marketed to predominantly males.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I agree that other factors, like social anxiety, are the most likely cause of social alienation of this group. The problem is that when you talk to alt right gamers, they don't agree that obvious things like being neuro-divergent are the reason they were socially shunned: they will literally tell you that games are the reason.
The thing is I used to be like that! I remember posting on here somewhere around 2012 or so that if I ever had a child I'd try to prevent them from having nerdy hobbies solely because I thought that would lead to them experiencing alienation and isolation from most people. I still don't trust most people enough to out myself as a nerd, even though I know nobody is going to attack me for it or anything like that; I'm just afraid of being mocked for it and only trust other people I think are like me.
I did know one guy in high school who was both super into Magic: The Gathering and on the football team, but as far as I saw he was the exception, someone who was otherwise cool enough that being kind of a nerd didn't destroy his social standing.
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
...if you talk to incels, no matter how much you try to push them towards therapy, they will continue to beat the drum that the ONLY reason they aren't happy is because they are ugly (in a physical sense) and women are shallow - even though when you see their pictures, they're universally average-to-handsome.
Yeah, I've noticed that sort of guy online too. Could it be a form of body dysmorphia?
I learned too late that people mocked me just because I was a mockable person; didn't matter what hobbies I had.
If your self esteem is fragile, you adhere to any narrative that gets you through life. Mine was so fragile I didn't connect with any group at all; otherwise I may have been one of those problem people
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
...if you talk to incels, no matter how much you try to push them towards therapy, they will continue to beat the drum that the ONLY reason they aren't happy is because they are ugly (in a physical sense) and women are shallow - even though when you see their pictures, they're universally average-to-handsome.
Yeah, I've noticed that sort of guy online too. Could it be a form of body dysmorphia?
See, I'm wondering if they were the gawky sort, and also nerdy, and also having some other socially unacceptable traits, and they grew out of the gawky but are still socially awkward and nerdy and so they figure women won't like them? I mean, I have rare instances myself where I see myself in the mirror and think, "well I guess I'm not half bad", but most of the rest of the time I assume I'm anywhere from average to goofy looking. Difference is that I'm not an incel?
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I agree that other factors, like social anxiety, are the most likely cause of social alienation of this group. The problem is that when you talk to alt right gamers, they don't agree that obvious things like being neuro-divergent are the reason they were socially shunned: they will literally tell you that games are the reason.
The thing is I used to be like that! I remember posting on here somewhere around 2012 or so that if I ever had a child I'd try to prevent them from having nerdy hobbies solely because I thought that would lead to them experiencing alienation and isolation from most people. I still don't trust most people enough to out myself as a nerd, even though I know nobody is going to attack me for it or anything like that; I'm just afraid of being mocked for it and only trust other people I think are like me.
I did know one guy in high school who was both super into Magic: The Gathering and on the football team, but as far as I saw he was the exception, someone who was otherwise cool enough that being kind of a nerd didn't destroy his social standing.
I definitely had a problem sharing my hobbies with other people when I was younger, but I also have social anxiety, ADHD and suffered from low self esteem due to a toxic home life. Games wasn't a hobby I generally hid, though, and that may be because I'm a woman and there's less stigma attached; but I definitely had a much harder time admitting to things considered girly on account of girly things being naturally inferior to male-coded things. Like to this day I feel slightly ashamed of reading/listening to romance novels even though my husband passes no judgement on the things I like. Though I do see a parallel here, that games could be coded feminine in comparison to something like football, or at least coded "weak", and that's why young men may feel ashamed to share their hobby. And yet they can still feel superior to young women because genuinely girl-coded things are on a much lower social tier than games. This would also add to the desire for games to not be more open to women, since the more female-accepting games are, the less male-coded they are, making the status of the gamer even lower than it is currently.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
...if you talk to incels, no matter how much you try to push them towards therapy, they will continue to beat the drum that the ONLY reason they aren't happy is because they are ugly (in a physical sense) and women are shallow - even though when you see their pictures, they're universally average-to-handsome.
Yeah, I've noticed that sort of guy online too. Could it be a form of body dysmorphia?
See, I'm wondering if they were the gawky sort, and also nerdy, and also having some other socially unacceptable traits, and they grew out of the gawky but are still socially awkward and nerdy and so they figure women won't like them? I mean, I have rare instances myself where I see myself in the mirror and think, "well I guess I'm not half bad", but most of the rest of the time I assume I'm anywhere from average to goofy looking. Difference is that I'm not an incel?
No, I've met a couple of guys like this online and trying to convince them they look normal is like trying to convince an anorexic she's not fat. Perhaps it's a male manifestation of the same disorder? Except instead of hating themselves they project the hate outwards. Just my pop-psych analysis.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
They want to get laid but they treat women like shit so they don't get laid. Rather then admit it's their fault and change they blame women for something they can't control.
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
Now, this may be the case. Back in the 80s and 90s? Trekkies and D&D nerds were definitely figures of fun. And if you were into that kind of thing without being the stereotypical nerd or geek, you kept it quiet for fear of being outed. People were definitely discriminated against for being into geek culture, I think the Xbox era and maybe even Halo was the turning point for when video games became less niche and more mainstream. And even then - video games and Star trek/D&D were on a different level. And even those guys would steer clear of Doctor Who fans.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
Is Japan a model for gender inclusivity in games? I see Japanese internet and video game personalities that are women who seem to be doing better than their US counterparts.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
Is Japan a model for gender inclusivity in games? I see Japanese internet and video game personalities that are women who seem to be doing better than their US counterparts.
OHDEARGODNO
At least not in the way this board and thread would put it. Do not mistake recognition of sex and sexuality for inclusivity. Their culture is changing, becoming more progressive, but we would be put off by how incredibly sexist it is. Some video games take much pleasure in poking the mainstream in the eye when it comes to that sort of thing.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
Is Japan a model for gender inclusivity in games? I see Japanese internet and video game personalities that are women who seem to be doing better than their US counterparts.
OHDEARGODNO
At least not in the way this board and thread would put it. Do not mistake recognition of sex and sexuality for inclusivity. Their culture is changing, becoming more progressive, but we would be put off by how incredibly sexist it is. Some video games take much pleasure in poking the mainstream in the eye when it comes to that sort of thing.
I'm aware of that, but if Japan is a model of gender inclusivity in games by all comparable metrics, that's good empirical information.
Could games and the internet be a haven for oppressed demographics in Japan, in an almost perfect inversion of how it is over in the US?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think "why games" because the marketing efforts in the late 90's/early 00's started trying to codify capital-G "Gamer" as a lifestyle, so people started internalizing that concept and making it part of their identity, making it that much more personal when the thing they love so much gets criticized. I don't remember any such effort codify the consumption of media as part of one's identity for any other male-targeted hobbies.
I think the 80s was when lifestyle marketing really started taking off so that might be the difference?
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
Is Japan a model for gender inclusivity in games? I see Japanese internet and video game personalities that are women who seem to be doing better than their US counterparts.
OHDEARGODNO
At least not in the way this board and thread would put it. Do not mistake recognition of sex and sexuality for inclusivity. Their culture is changing, becoming more progressive, but we would be put off by how incredibly sexist it is. Some video games take much pleasure in poking the mainstream in the eye when it comes to that sort of thing.
I'm aware of that, but if Japan is a model of gender inclusivity in games by all comparable metrics, that's good empirical information.
Could games and the internet be a haven for oppressed demographics in Japan, in an almost perfect inversion of how it is over in the US?
Japanese media has a lot more female characters, as well as female protagonists, but the vast majority are mainly there either for pure tittilation or to serve as idealized waifus.
Here's an example of what I was talking about in Japanese media: Seven Deadly Sins is a popular anime now on Netflix that features three cis male characters, one male-identifying but otherwise feminine-coded character, and three female characters. This sounds good until you get to the fact that the female characters wear much more revealing clothing and the primary male protagonist regularly gropes the primary female protagonist, which is intended to be humorous.
Honestly one of the least objectifying anime I can think of is one ironically called Panty & Stocking. It's premise sounds just like a stereotypical anime: the two titular characters can turn their namesake garments into weapons. However, the art style and character designs are extremely stylized, the male characters are depicted as drooling morons around the protagonists, and the protagonists themselves are lewd, foul-mouthed, aggressive, and very sexually active, in stark contrast to the fetishized innocence of most female anime characters.
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
Hexmage-PA on
+14
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I think calling "geeks" an oppressed minority is wrong because the geeks who are marginalized aren't discriminated against because they are into nerdy things, but because they are neurodivergent or otherwise have difficulty interacting with "normal" society. Saying that these people aren't really discriminated against because nerd culture is more mainstream is missing the point; they weren't discriminated against because they were into nerd culture, but many are into nerd culture because they were discriminated against for other reasons and sought activities were they could either be alone or only talk to people without having to be face-to-face, like online or on voice chat.
Yeah, the bolded is actually just a cover argument used by bullies to push the blame onto victims, so let's not start repeating it here. There's plenty of psych research on bullying, and very little of it points to bullies targetting specifics (in fact, bullies tend to target everyone, then hone in on the ones that have the least threatening reactions, hence the extreme commonality of victim stories ending with "and after I punched him/her, s/he left me alone").
As to the more general point, you'd also have to argue that the vector of verbal bullying (i.e. the classic "haha this fucker is writing up his d&d sessions on his university webpage, let's gather everyone in the hall together and have a good laugh") is not a part of the bullying, which is splitting hairs. It sends the immediate message of "this deviant behaviour is what is causing us to mock you." Nobody says "oh look at this person with Asperger's, let's make fun of the normal aspects of their behaviour."
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
*does small amount of googling*
...what in the fuck
+9
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
So instead of (in addition to?) having an alt-right problem, Japan has restrictive and regressive societal norms. However, this is tangential to the representation of women in games. Specific examples of sexualized portrayals of women in certain games are subject to salience bias - attributing the existence of high profile examples to an overall trend without looking at the real numbers. Number of women protagonists, actors, developers, users etc in relation to men. Any studies out there?
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I refuse to believe it's because "feminists were mean".*
*I.e. "The reactionary left drove people to the alt-right."
Because a broadly spread identity point of being a nerd or "gamer" is being shunned.
They capitalize on people desperate to belong. And after luring people over they ironically bully people into staying along for the ride.
There's a lot of "I used to be part of G***rgate" people out there that have talked about this. And I was saying from day one of that shit that it was a campaign to co-opt video game enthusiasm into a conservative party recruitment drive across the globe. And it has sadly worked.
I refuse to believe it's because "feminists were mean".*
*I.e. "The reactionary left drove people to the alt-right."
Because a broadly spread identity point of being a nerd or "gamer" is being shunned.
They capitalize on people desperate to belong. And after luring people over they ironically bully people into staying along for the ride.
There's a lot of "I used to be part of G***rgate" people out there that have talked about this. And I was saying from day one of that shit that it was a campaign to co-opt video game enthusiasm into a conservative party recruitment drive across the globe. And it has sadly worked.
If I could rewind time, then, the solution would be social prophylaxis. I wonder if school based video game clubs would have helped.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I think it is a worthwhile question to ask of creators: "Why did you create your protagonist, your world, your story beats in the way you did? Why did you follow the typical formula? Why didn't you consider a more diverse protagonist, a different story hook, a more diverse world?" in the same way it's worthwhile to ask "Why does your magic system work the way it does? What is the history of your work? Why does electric damage impact shields and not armor?"
I always view the former as a trick question, because you can always argue something should be more diverse in the abstract sense. I've said this before, but there's always an argument for more diversity. Achieving it is Sisyphean once you apply it to a single creator or game studio, rather than a medium as a whole. Even if you take something like Overwatch that is making an effort to include distinctive diverse characters in their roster (rather than the blank slate, pick your sex/skin colour/pronouns approach of RPGs), the number of minorities they cannot include is going to massively outnumber the ones they can. Nothing, video game wise, stands up to "why isn't x included?"
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
So instead of (in addition to?) having an alt-right problem, Japan has restrictive and regressive societal norms. However, this is tangential to the representation of women in games. Specific examples of sexualized portrayals of women in certain games are subject to salience bias - attributing the existence of high profile examples to an overall trend without looking at the real numbers. Number of women protagonists, actors, developers, users etc in relation to men. Any studies out there?
*Does* Japan have an alt-right problem? Or are gender and racial roles stereotyped enough there that the straight Japanese males don't feel threatened?
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
So instead of (in addition to?) having an alt-right problem, Japan has restrictive and regressive societal norms. However, this is tangential to the representation of women in games. Specific examples of sexualized portrayals of women in certain games are subject to salience bias - attributing the existence of high profile examples to an overall trend without looking at the real numbers. Number of women protagonists, actors, developers, users etc in relation to men. Any studies out there?
*Does* Japan have an alt-right problem? Or are gender and racial roles stereotyped enough there that the straight Japanese males don't feel threatened?
In 2014, a troll went viral on Twitter by stepping forward with a public confession about how they became active in the netto-uyoku. Twitter user @tori7810 described a loneliness and alienation that led her deeper and deeper into Japan’s dark internet underbelly.
“The only thing that remained was that I was ‘Japanese,’” she wrote, describing a mindset where she tried to slowly overcome her loneliness and depression with an intense and vocal expression of xenophobia and nationalism
Japanese games don't seem to be any more gender inclusive than our games, judging by things like Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
So instead of (in addition to?) having an alt-right problem, Japan has restrictive and regressive societal norms. However, this is tangential to the representation of women in games. Specific examples of sexualized portrayals of women in certain games are subject to salience bias - attributing the existence of high profile examples to an overall trend without looking at the real numbers. Number of women protagonists, actors, developers, users etc in relation to men. Any studies out there?
*Does* Japan have an alt-right problem? Or are gender and racial roles stereotyped enough there that the straight Japanese males don't feel threatened?
Not so much and Alt-Right Problem as it has an Right problem. As in "Japan did nothing wrong in WW2" being a popular position among several leading politicians. The Prime Minister is probably one of them. They believe shit like "the Nanking Massacre didn't happen", "Comfort women where not a thing" and "Japanese War criminals where really patriots".
The Fascists don't have to code their message, because it is the message. Fun Times.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Then, the interaction of women and gaming media becomes more interesting, since we can isolate its effect.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I refuse to believe it's because "feminists were mean".*
*I.e. "The reactionary left drove people to the alt-right."
Because a broadly spread identity point of being a nerd or "gamer" is being shunned.
They capitalize on people desperate to belong. And after luring people over they ironically bully people into staying along for the ride.
There's a lot of "I used to be part of G***rgate" people out there that have talked about this. And I was saying from day one of that shit that it was a campaign to co-opt video game enthusiasm into a conservative party recruitment drive across the globe. And it has sadly worked.
If I could rewind time, then, the solution would be social prophylaxis. I wonder if school based video game clubs would have helped.
Not if my high school experience is any indicator. If anything, it would have made it worse as it would have presented a target concentration for those who were already assholes.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
They want to get laid but they treat women like shit so they don't get laid. Rather then admit it's their fault and change they blame women for something they can't control.
Tangentially, problem is also the societal obsession over "getting laid", and not doing so being horrible, you failing as a man, and somehow deviant if you are not desperately trying to do so.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
They want to get laid but they treat women like shit so they don't get laid. Rather then admit it's their fault and change they blame women for something they can't control.
Tangentially, problem is also the societal obsession over "getting laid", and not doing so being horrible, you failing as a man, and somehow deviant if you are not desperately trying to do so.
Ironically, that obsession about "getting laid" comes from those very same circles of people / those they look up to; the "alpha" male bullshit.
They want to get laid but they treat women like shit so they don't get laid. Rather then admit it's their fault and change they blame women for something they can't control.
Tangentially, problem is also the societal obsession over "getting laid", and not doing so being horrible, you failing as a man, and somehow deviant if you are not desperately trying to do so.
Ironically, that obsession about "getting laid" comes from those very same circles of people / those they look up to; the "alpha" male bullshit.
Meanwhile everyone else is more chill about it.
Nah, it's not just some alpha males.
It's very common, if lowkey, thing in media, especially how media portrays men, women and how the two interact.
Movies, comics, books, games, you name it.
It might not be everywhere, but it is everywhere enough.
Posts
But gaming specifically involves walking into a room of CCG players, or joining an MMO guild, or voice chatting in deathmatches, or what have you, and all of those are places which are male dominated, which harass and objectify women who try to enter, etc.
This is probably one reason why women are more often gaming in solo spaces, like mobile/handheld.
The same is not true for, say, movies; there are no major spaces in that medium which men can keep male-centric, and we see what happens when there are such spaces (the Alamo Drafthouse, for example, and its issues with sexual harassment). Movies are mass media; games are mass media that is still sometimes niche media, and niche spaces make it easier for people to fight diversity, which in turn keeps them against diversity, makes them feel like women are the Other and not to be trusted or included.
I agree that other factors, like social anxiety, are the most likely cause of social alienation of this group. The problem is that when you talk to alt right gamers, they don't agree that obvious things like being neuro-divergent are the reason they were socially shunned: they will literally tell you that games are the reason. A lot of alt-right communities are that way - like if you talk to incels, no matter how much you try to push them towards therapy, they will continue to beat the drum that the ONLY reason they aren't happy is because they are ugly (in a physical sense) and women are shallow - even though when you see their pictures, they're universally average-to-handsome.
This seems to be the ultimate underlying draw of any alt-right community; "you have no need to look within or do work to improve yourself or think about how your actions affect other people. Everything wrong with the world is entirely outside of your control and you are a victim of the RNG."
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Side note:
This only pertains to the subject matter inasmuch as it pertains to how games were sold, and in some ways continue to be marketed to predominantly males.
The thing is I used to be like that! I remember posting on here somewhere around 2012 or so that if I ever had a child I'd try to prevent them from having nerdy hobbies solely because I thought that would lead to them experiencing alienation and isolation from most people. I still don't trust most people enough to out myself as a nerd, even though I know nobody is going to attack me for it or anything like that; I'm just afraid of being mocked for it and only trust other people I think are like me.
I did know one guy in high school who was both super into Magic: The Gathering and on the football team, but as far as I saw he was the exception, someone who was otherwise cool enough that being kind of a nerd didn't destroy his social standing.
Yeah, I've noticed that sort of guy online too. Could it be a form of body dysmorphia?
If your self esteem is fragile, you adhere to any narrative that gets you through life. Mine was so fragile I didn't connect with any group at all; otherwise I may have been one of those problem people
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That sort of advertisement has always been a thing and you could make an argument that the original Sears catalog was the first such instance. It was in the 1950s, with the experiences gained in the propaganda machines during WW2, that advertising execs were first freed to use it on the general public. Consider some of the smoking & alcohol advertisements of the time. The use of a particular "smooth" looking individual or "fun" personality to directly affect one's association with a product, especially when the product itself isn't the center of the advertisement itself, but is incidental. Exactly like how war propaganda worked. Advertisement has followed this propaganda technique since.
In the case of "gamer" lifestyle, the advertisement world has largely been stymied by the fact that it isn't nearly as male centered as they would like it to be and it never was. This was an assumption built into it by the 80s toy retail model after Reagan's machine tore away the cartoons can't advertise toys rules. It was decided that computers were for boys and...that was it. Computers were for boys. There were token attempts to put girls' toys into software games but most of these attempts fizzled out until the early 2000s when demographics clearly showed that there were more women playing games on console platforms than men. This is of particular note since it appears to be only US and Western European thing, as Japan not only had more software and games that directly targeted women, but had entire franchises that made sure that they were equally appealing to boy and girls.
See, I'm wondering if they were the gawky sort, and also nerdy, and also having some other socially unacceptable traits, and they grew out of the gawky but are still socially awkward and nerdy and so they figure women won't like them? I mean, I have rare instances myself where I see myself in the mirror and think, "well I guess I'm not half bad", but most of the rest of the time I assume I'm anywhere from average to goofy looking. Difference is that I'm not an incel?
I definitely had a problem sharing my hobbies with other people when I was younger, but I also have social anxiety, ADHD and suffered from low self esteem due to a toxic home life. Games wasn't a hobby I generally hid, though, and that may be because I'm a woman and there's less stigma attached; but I definitely had a much harder time admitting to things considered girly on account of girly things being naturally inferior to male-coded things. Like to this day I feel slightly ashamed of reading/listening to romance novels even though my husband passes no judgement on the things I like. Though I do see a parallel here, that games could be coded feminine in comparison to something like football, or at least coded "weak", and that's why young men may feel ashamed to share their hobby. And yet they can still feel superior to young women because genuinely girl-coded things are on a much lower social tier than games. This would also add to the desire for games to not be more open to women, since the more female-accepting games are, the less male-coded they are, making the status of the gamer even lower than it is currently.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
I don't really follow Japanese games apart from the big games that make it to the US. Is current Main Character representation better in Japanese games intended for the Japan market?
No, I've met a couple of guys like this online and trying to convince them they look normal is like trying to convince an anorexic she's not fat. Perhaps it's a male manifestation of the same disorder? Except instead of hating themselves they project the hate outwards. Just my pop-psych analysis.
It is far more age segregated than gender segregated. Think how pokemon, digimon, and sanrio stuff is all targeted at certain ages. This runs up to high school age and early adulthood before gender segregation kicks into full gear. Even then you get games like the Persona series.
As for Japanese only games, outside Nintendo and their oddities, that's not as much a thing as it once was. Global markets has really done a number on that part of their cultural identity. So what you see at E3 is pretty much what we all get, save for some localization. See recent Yakuza Zero dustup on twitter for examples.
Now, this may be the case. Back in the 80s and 90s? Trekkies and D&D nerds were definitely figures of fun. And if you were into that kind of thing without being the stereotypical nerd or geek, you kept it quiet for fear of being outed. People were definitely discriminated against for being into geek culture, I think the Xbox era and maybe even Halo was the turning point for when video games became less niche and more mainstream. And even then - video games and Star trek/D&D were on a different level. And even those guys would steer clear of Doctor Who fans.
Is Japan a model for gender inclusivity in games? I see Japanese internet and video game personalities that are women who seem to be doing better than their US counterparts.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
OHDEARGODNO
At least not in the way this board and thread would put it. Do not mistake recognition of sex and sexuality for inclusivity. Their culture is changing, becoming more progressive, but we would be put off by how incredibly sexist it is. Some video games take much pleasure in poking the mainstream in the eye when it comes to that sort of thing.
I'm aware of that, but if Japan is a model of gender inclusivity in games by all comparable metrics, that's good empirical information.
Could games and the internet be a haven for oppressed demographics in Japan, in an almost perfect inversion of how it is over in the US?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Japanese media has a lot more female characters, as well as female protagonists, but the vast majority are mainly there either for pure tittilation or to serve as idealized waifus.
The Boss, Meryl, and Sniper Wolf are powerful women in the same series.
Based on what I've seen of those three characters, the women in that series are half there for titillation. Exactly like Quiet, also from that series.
Honestly one of the least objectifying anime I can think of is one ironically called Panty & Stocking. It's premise sounds just like a stereotypical anime: the two titular characters can turn their namesake garments into weapons. However, the art style and character designs are extremely stylized, the male characters are depicted as drooling morons around the protagonists, and the protagonists themselves are lewd, foul-mouthed, aggressive, and very sexually active, in stark contrast to the fetishized innocence of most female anime characters.
Anecdotally, Raiden looks the way he does because of a women's focus group. Same with Heather from SH3.
I wonder if harrassment campaigns against women characters, actors, and developers in games are of similar intensity as they are over here. Game content and visuals notwithstanding.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
From what I understand, female "idols" aren't supposed to date because part of their job is to present themselves as ideal girlfriend material. I'm pretty sure I remember one idol who had to issue a press statement apologizing to her fans for having a boyfriend (or something like that) once it became common knowledge.
As to the more general point, you'd also have to argue that the vector of verbal bullying (i.e. the classic "haha this fucker is writing up his d&d sessions on his university webpage, let's gather everyone in the hall together and have a good laugh") is not a part of the bullying, which is splitting hairs. It sends the immediate message of "this deviant behaviour is what is causing us to mock you." Nobody says "oh look at this person with Asperger's, let's make fun of the normal aspects of their behaviour."
*does small amount of googling*
...what in the fuck
Some of this is probably sampling bias - gamers are more likely to be Extremely Online than others
So instead of (in addition to?) having an alt-right problem, Japan has restrictive and regressive societal norms. However, this is tangential to the representation of women in games. Specific examples of sexualized portrayals of women in certain games are subject to salience bias - attributing the existence of high profile examples to an overall trend without looking at the real numbers. Number of women protagonists, actors, developers, users etc in relation to men. Any studies out there?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
They capitalize on people desperate to belong. And after luring people over they ironically bully people into staying along for the ride.
There's a lot of "I used to be part of G***rgate" people out there that have talked about this. And I was saying from day one of that shit that it was a campaign to co-opt video game enthusiasm into a conservative party recruitment drive across the globe. And it has sadly worked.
If I could rewind time, then, the solution would be social prophylaxis. I wonder if school based video game clubs would have helped.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
*Does* Japan have an alt-right problem? Or are gender and racial roles stereotyped enough there that the straight Japanese males don't feel threatened?
I kinda think they do going off this buzzfeed news.https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/the-far-right-weeb-army
This part is especially interesting to me.
Not so much and Alt-Right Problem as it has an Right problem. As in "Japan did nothing wrong in WW2" being a popular position among several leading politicians. The Prime Minister is probably one of them. They believe shit like "the Nanking Massacre didn't happen", "Comfort women where not a thing" and "Japanese War criminals where really patriots".
The Fascists don't have to code their message, because it is the message. Fun Times.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Not if my high school experience is any indicator. If anything, it would have made it worse as it would have presented a target concentration for those who were already assholes.
Meanwhile everyone else is more chill about it.
It's very common, if lowkey, thing in media, especially how media portrays men, women and how the two interact.
Movies, comics, books, games, you name it.
It might not be everywhere, but it is everywhere enough.