Sean Nayden just feels like he's playing the game on an entirely different level to everyone else sometimes, I'd expect his list to fall completely flat in the hands of almost any other player.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Sean Nayden just feels like he's playing the game on an entirely different level to everyone else sometimes, I'd expect his list to fall completely flat in the hands of almost any other player.
Probably, but I have little doubt he's also running into very favorable list matchups. I have no idea what that list does against two hundred orks other than hide and force morale checks. Against IF vehicle spam, however, each unit of Skyweavers is dealing ten-ish mortals to a tank/flyer/dread or blowing away a unit of Intercessors a turn, and with a 22" move and a 24" range on the guns its not exactly like they have difficulty actually getting LOS.
Nayden gets a lot of credit since he plays really weird things and then beats the top players with it. He has made top 8 at lvo for six years in a row.
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
I mean, it's still a difficult list to pilot. The whole thing is like 30 relevant models. Even if they are 3+/4++/6+++, you position something wrong it's gonna die.
Look he's a great player, nice guy, I've seen him around at the GTs near NYC, but looking at his army lists it's always "yea those are strong Eldar soup units in general and a good call for this particular meta" with sometimes a few sprinkles of "well those aren't the best netlist Eldar units but they'd be top choices in any other codex" so I kind of shrug at "omg how is he winning with this list?!" comments that pop up after he does well somewhere.
I really appreciate that one of the best Eldar players likes to shake things up and not just use the usual cookie cutter units, but he's still playing Eldar, it's not like this guy is winning with Necrons or Grey Knights or whatever with such cunning and finesse that he still beats the top whatever.
It's not exactly like Eldar lists are filling up the rest of the top 8 there. Feels kind of weird to single them out as a faction which apparently invalidates player skill.
The days of Ynnari are well over. Though Eldar, craftworld specifically, are very strong but the match up verse marines (30-40% of match ups or in the top 8 75% of the lists at LVO) but you have to first. Nayden just isn't playing that list but its a good list.
I couldn't win with it though.
I mean it isn't Siegler, who is an amazing player, but swapped to Marines because he knew he couldn't win with Tau anymore.
Though if we did do power rankings pre-GK buffs it is probaby:
1)Marines
2)Eldar (CWE)
3)Chaos
Then everyone else. And Chaos is on a knifes edge anyway. Though I guess Tsons has a good winning percentage verse marines just like a 30% win rate verse anything else.
I think GK might end up replacing Marines on the top 3. I mean it is telling that almost all the best players have swapped to Marines now.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
What are the chances this mortalis terrain will remain available for a long time?
I've set a nerd budget for each month and I already used up February to buy the Skaven half of carrion empire but I really want some zone mortalis terrain
They have said it's going to be around for sometime several times as I too live on a extreme budget. I do want to get necromunda Dark uprising but it came out during the troubles.
Part of me wants to get the Warcry terrain kits for Aos and Kill team games so it looks like they are not doing the one and done printings anymore. But since blood of the phoenix is no longer on the GW site I am getting paranoid about tons of things
I really hope that is true. I missed out on three other terrain sets because they stopped selling them very shortly after.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
It's not exactly like Eldar lists are filling up the rest of the top 8 there. Feels kind of weird to single them out as a faction which apparently invalidates player skill.
I don't single out Eldar, if you had named one of the Space Marines guys I'd have had the same kneejerk eyeroll reaction, sorry if it felt like I was coming at you.
The days of Ynnari are well over. Though Eldar, craftworld specifically, are very strong but the match up verse marines (30-40% of match ups or in the top 8 75% of the lists at LVO) but you have to first. Nayden just isn't playing that list but its a good list.
I couldn't win with it though.
I mean it isn't Siegler, who is an amazing player, but swapped to Marines because he knew he couldn't win with Tau anymore.
Though if we did do power rankings pre-GK buffs it is probaby:
1)Marines
2)Eldar (CWE)
3)Chaos
Then everyone else. And Chaos is on a knifes edge anyway. Though I guess Tsons has a good winning percentage verse marines just like a 30% win rate verse anything else.
I think GK might end up replacing Marines on the top 3. I mean it is telling that almost all the best players have swapped to Marines now.
There is no way Grey Knights disrupt the power rankings. I love that the new book is giving them some teeth, I'm constantly planning lists now and will probably get a game in this weekend, but to think they'll replace Marines in the top 3 is laughable IMHO.
All of the new punch they're packing comes at the cost of CP they don't have and points they need to be spending on CP generating units. You can pull an awesome trick dropping a 100 point unit outside of 3 inches of something and doing ~10ish MW... for 4-5 CP... if they've poorly screened. You can drop most of a Knight with stormbolters... for 5 CP... with a full PA squad within 12 or a full TDA squad within 24, and Draigo and probably a Chaplain.
And then you're still 1W marines in power and terminator armor, so even some big brick of Paladins to be the target of all these CPs and buff powers I'm spending 3-4 CP per turn (or maybe even per shooting and melee phase...). Meanwhile you're moving 5 inches a turn, with your only mobility being traditional deep strike, and despite paying for melee weapons on every model no charge bonuses whatsoever, we got none of those litanies, and you have zero screens...
Any Space Marine list would tear a Grey Knight army apart on their own turn and lose only whatever Scouts or Primaris are screening on the GK turn before another round of crazy shooting.
I'd love to be wrong here, but everything I imagine, spam PA marines, a big 10 man unit of TDA marines with the new survival strategems stacked on them, nothing can survive what comes their way from actually good armies. And since the vast bulk of the new buffs are in the Doctrine equivalent you can't ally in to fill any of these holes without losing all the offense.
I have thought about it. I know a bunch of people online are ranting how the return of the Zoat is going to change the lore of the tyranids. I feel they are going to recon the Zoat's lore.
I really don't run with special characters that often [other than the emperor's champion]
The big thing that Goonhammer has been mentioning is that Chaplain Ven Dreads are OP since turns out that giving Character targeting protection to Twin-Linked Lascannon shots, on a vehicle frame, that also buff your army is an issue. Oh, and you will never guess the kind of super shooty hard to kill Marine chapter that takes full advantage from that. Hint: Their Primarch is named Ferrus _____.
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
It's not exactly like Eldar lists are filling up the rest of the top 8 there. Feels kind of weird to single them out as a faction which apparently invalidates player skill.
I don't single out Eldar, if you had named one of the Space Marines guys I'd have had the same kneejerk eyeroll reaction, sorry if it felt like I was coming at you.
The days of Ynnari are well over. Though Eldar, craftworld specifically, are very strong but the match up verse marines (30-40% of match ups or in the top 8 75% of the lists at LVO) but you have to first. Nayden just isn't playing that list but its a good list.
I couldn't win with it though.
I mean it isn't Siegler, who is an amazing player, but swapped to Marines because he knew he couldn't win with Tau anymore.
Though if we did do power rankings pre-GK buffs it is probaby:
1)Marines
2)Eldar (CWE)
3)Chaos
Then everyone else. And Chaos is on a knifes edge anyway. Though I guess Tsons has a good winning percentage verse marines just like a 30% win rate verse anything else.
I think GK might end up replacing Marines on the top 3. I mean it is telling that almost all the best players have swapped to Marines now.
There is no way Grey Knights disrupt the power rankings. I love that the new book is giving them some teeth, I'm constantly planning lists now and will probably get a game in this weekend, but to think they'll replace Marines in the top 3 is laughable IMHO.
All of the new punch they're packing comes at the cost of CP they don't have and points they need to be spending on CP generating units. You can pull an awesome trick dropping a 100 point unit outside of 3 inches of something and doing ~10ish MW... for 4-5 CP... if they've poorly screened. You can drop most of a Knight with stormbolters... for 5 CP... with a full PA squad within 12 or a full TDA squad within 24, and Draigo and probably a Chaplain.
And then you're still 1W marines in power and terminator armor, so even some big brick of Paladins to be the target of all these CPs and buff powers I'm spending 3-4 CP per turn (or maybe even per shooting and melee phase...). Meanwhile you're moving 5 inches a turn, with your only mobility being traditional deep strike, and despite paying for melee weapons on every model no charge bonuses whatsoever, we got none of those litanies, and you have zero screens...
Any Space Marine list would tear a Grey Knight army apart on their own turn and lose only whatever Scouts or Primaris are screening on the GK turn before another round of crazy shooting.
I'd love to be wrong here, but everything I imagine, spam PA marines, a big 10 man unit of TDA marines with the new survival strategems stacked on them, nothing can survive what comes their way from actually good armies. And since the vast bulk of the new buffs are in the Doctrine equivalent you can't ally in to fill any of these holes without losing all the offense.
From what I hear from the scuttlebutt a lot of folks are putting GK in the top line.
I didn't say better than marines. I said maybe 3rd there over taking Chaos.
A lot of it comes down to that the GK can put out a lot of damage real fast and a lot of mortal wounds. T-Sons level of mortal wounds. I agree they are CP hungry but being CP hungry hasn't stopped many armies doing well. But it means you have to do your job quick and fast.
I don't think they will knock off marines. I don't think anyone will till the army has as many overlapping buffs as loyalist get.
OK but Tsons are a Surpeme Command Detachment you can mix in with any other, already good, Chaos units. Grey Knights have to be an entire GK army, with all the myriad shortcomings that entails.
If you only have 13 CP and spend 8-10 a turn to have the kind of shooting and resilience that other armies have standard, this isn't going to work out. The strong psychic phase is really nice but it's all short range and the best stuff targets the closest enemy model... I just don't see how you can overcome any good long range shooting + screens list.
The list I'll try first will be the big Paladin wall with a lot of independent characters behind it, the psychic phase will be out of this world strong and with the 2 CP -1 damage taken for this phase strategem and -1 to be wounded psychic power I think the 10 Paladins may be able to survive one turn of enemy fire... maybe?
Edit: Actually, ignoring the new Tides and playing a GK army, just using the new psychic powers and strategems that enable them (the +6 inch range one is huge), I could see a Supreme Command of 3 Grey Knights being a useful psychic phase booster for some Imperium army that doesn't get hurt by soup and has points to spare. Imperial Guard maybe? One guy with Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom, the others with the 1" super nuke and gain a CP powers. Probably Crowe for the 1" nuke since he already has a 3" super smite, have the third guy cast Gate or the new move in the psychic phase power on him to let him get into the CP-fueled 7-9" range...?
So you could have an inferior (because Daemon Princes are just a better statline for the points) Tsons style add-on detachment but as every faction gets their own Doctrines equivalent encouraging monofaction I'm not sure who'd be interested, if they'd even be interested today. Certainly Space Marines wouldn't bother.
OK but Tsons are a Surpeme Command Detachment you can mix in with any other, already good, Chaos units. Grey Knights have to be an entire GK army, with all the myriad shortcomings that entails.
If you only have 13 CP and spend 8-10 a turn to have the kind of shooting and resilience that other armies have standard, this isn't going to work out. The strong psychic phase is really nice but it's all short range and the best stuff targets the closest enemy model... I just don't see how you can overcome any good long range shooting + screens list.
The list I'll try first will be the big Paladin wall with a lot of independent characters behind it, the psychic phase will be out of this world strong and with the 2 CP -1 damage taken for this phase strategem and -1 to be wounded psychic power I think the 10 Paladins may be able to survive one turn of enemy fire... maybe?
Paladins are similar though not 100% the same to cents. In a way a bit tougher due to the the invuln.
I agree with you on the weaknesses. But at the same time they are a counter to a lot of chaos list now but that has been kind of true. 4 wound smites are scary to my lists.
I think you will be surprised though how tough 1+ armor paladins are with transhuman popped so they can only be wounded on a 4+.
The Paladins can't be 1+ for most of the game though, I need to choose whether to make my shooting useful, my smite spam useful or to have the 1+ armor.
Also Centurions have 4 wounds, Paladins have 3, and a 5++ invuln has rarely even been useful to me on 2+ units. Hardly anything is AP -4. even casting Sanctuary to make it 4++ rarely helps as we've gone from Plasma spam to AP -1 and AP -2 fire.
A lot of marine armies will throw -2,-3, and -4 at you in large quantities. But they have inflated AP due to the doctrine system. But the 1+ should let you live a turn or two to get into range as needed. I see GK as having a lot of options and a lot of power. PA plus some point drops in CA put them in a good spot.
I'm not a huge fan of the move towards taking away major abilities from a faction if they are in a soup list. I get why they're doing it, but as someone who isn't in the competitive scene and wants to just have some casual fun with a Sisters + Marines list or something it's a bummer.
H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited January 2020
I think it makes a lot of design sense as a way to balance monofaction vs soup, but it's tricky. They don't want to end up with an army that overspecializes and leans too heavily on its monofaction bonus to compensate, or the players may be left with a Morton's Fork dilemma where the army is bad for soup because its premier units can't have much impact without their special mechanics, but also struggles as a monofaction build because crippling gaps in the lineup undercut its ability to either compete for points, get where they need to be, or fuel its heavy hitters with enough command points to try to table the opponent.
I know I am not looking forward to the rumored 9th edition this is why I really want something like Soul Wars a ironing out of the rules
This way it keeps the ideal of a constant beta [odd to think of a board/wargame with this} But it's the people that min/max it to get tons of Cp or generate more I feel take the fun out of the game.
The big thing that Goonhammer has been mentioning is that Chaplain Ven Dreads are OP since turns out that giving Character targeting protection to Twin-Linked Lascannon shots, on a vehicle frame, that also buff your army is an issue. Oh, and you will never guess the kind of super shooty hard to kill Marine chapter that takes full advantage from that. Hint: Their Primarch is named Ferrus _____.
I actually picked that model up the other day, I just haven't had time to clean it up and assemble it yet. I think the character rule applying to it is a little goofy considering it's a giant metal box on legs, but eh. He's an HQ though, so now I can finally do my March of the Dreadnoughts list for fun.
Also not sure how much folks watched it but the 40k Stats Center Stream showing multiple tables with on the fly updates and discussions with the players was what I wanted from a 40k stream. It was great.
When Killteam originally released everyone in my meta was running the Deathwatch Triple Frag Cannon list and that was really not fun to play against.
My list at launch was:
1. Intercessor sgt with a bolt rifle (leader)
2. Intercessor with a grenade launcher/bolt rifle
3. Frag cannon (demolitions)
4. Heavy TH (close combat)
5. Flex spot either close combat blackwatch or infernus bolter
First run with tsons against deathwatch in kill teams and man the combination of psychic attacks and all is dust against 1 wound marines is brutal
Tsons are good but Deathwatch are brutal in KT.
Just wound everything on 2s with -1 ap bolters outside of range and then hit the big stuff with a hammer.
Or at least that is my normal plan.
He had a lot of 1 damage weapons which I could take advantage of and psychic phase is really hard on all those 1 would models. That kind of seems to be the problem with Deathwatch in my experience. You buy all that equipment and its still on a pretty frail body.
Started using Screaming Bell (Copper) in the rotation, as gold / silver wasn't doing it for me. Need to add a bit more to the handheld gadget, maybe some silver on the antenna.
And the next time I do these, I absolutely am painting them before putting them all the way together.
When you buys base spray parts before assembly how to do you them without getting finger prints or unpainted spots in the process? Set on a surface and spray directly against?
Marine vs. Marine. I just can't bring myself to care. I am thinking Siegler takes it. Already has the ITC championship in the bag.
I didn't stay up to watch the final, but Siegler versus Nayden had some incredible moments. A single Intercessor sergeant wiping out almost a full squad of Shining Spears by himself and the late game reveal that Marines can use a warlord trait to get two chapter tactics for a turn standing out in my mind.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Marine vs. Marine. I just can't bring myself to care. I am thinking Siegler takes it. Already has the ITC championship in the bag.
I didn't stay up to watch the final, but Siegler versus Nayden had some incredible moments. A single Intercessor sergeant wiping out almost a full squad of Shining Spears by himself and the late game reveal that Marines can use a warlord trait to get two chapter tactics for a turn standing out in my mind.
That's from the vigilus detachment if I recall. It's pretty good.
It used to be where you got veteran intercessors from but they just rolled that into the base codex.
I think it makes a lot of design sense as a way to balance monofaction vs soup, but it's tricky. They don't want to end up with an army that overspecializes and leans too heavily on its monofaction bonus to compensate, or the players may be left with a Morton's Fork dilemma where the army is bad for soup because its premier units can't have much impact without their special mechanics, but also struggles as a monofaction build because crippling gaps in the lineup undercut its ability to either compete for points, get where they need to be, or fuel its heavy hitters with enough command points to try to table the opponent.
Also, there's a lot of people that don't like soup on the first place. Like me! When Soup debuted on 6th, I found that giving every Imperial army Imperial Guard (read: Best Troops of the game) troops was making the games so repetitive and was a massive turnoff.
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Probably, but I have little doubt he's also running into very favorable list matchups. I have no idea what that list does against two hundred orks other than hide and force morale checks. Against IF vehicle spam, however, each unit of Skyweavers is dealing ten-ish mortals to a tank/flyer/dread or blowing away a unit of Intercessors a turn, and with a 22" move and a 24" range on the guns its not exactly like they have difficulty actually getting LOS.
I really appreciate that one of the best Eldar players likes to shake things up and not just use the usual cookie cutter units, but he's still playing Eldar, it's not like this guy is winning with Necrons or Grey Knights or whatever with such cunning and finesse that he still beats the top whatever.
I couldn't win with it though.
I mean it isn't Siegler, who is an amazing player, but swapped to Marines because he knew he couldn't win with Tau anymore.
Though if we did do power rankings pre-GK buffs it is probaby:
1)Marines
2)Eldar (CWE)
3)Chaos
Then everyone else. And Chaos is on a knifes edge anyway. Though I guess Tsons has a good winning percentage verse marines just like a 30% win rate verse anything else.
I think GK might end up replacing Marines on the top 3. I mean it is telling that almost all the best players have swapped to Marines now.
Yea, it is definitely not cheap but it is by far my favorite terrain type.
I really hope that is true. I missed out on three other terrain sets because they stopped selling them very shortly after.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I don't single out Eldar, if you had named one of the Space Marines guys I'd have had the same kneejerk eyeroll reaction, sorry if it felt like I was coming at you.
There is no way Grey Knights disrupt the power rankings. I love that the new book is giving them some teeth, I'm constantly planning lists now and will probably get a game in this weekend, but to think they'll replace Marines in the top 3 is laughable IMHO.
All of the new punch they're packing comes at the cost of CP they don't have and points they need to be spending on CP generating units. You can pull an awesome trick dropping a 100 point unit outside of 3 inches of something and doing ~10ish MW... for 4-5 CP... if they've poorly screened. You can drop most of a Knight with stormbolters... for 5 CP... with a full PA squad within 12 or a full TDA squad within 24, and Draigo and probably a Chaplain.
And then you're still 1W marines in power and terminator armor, so even some big brick of Paladins to be the target of all these CPs and buff powers I'm spending 3-4 CP per turn (or maybe even per shooting and melee phase...). Meanwhile you're moving 5 inches a turn, with your only mobility being traditional deep strike, and despite paying for melee weapons on every model no charge bonuses whatsoever, we got none of those litanies, and you have zero screens...
Any Space Marine list would tear a Grey Knight army apart on their own turn and lose only whatever Scouts or Primaris are screening on the GK turn before another round of crazy shooting.
I'd love to be wrong here, but everything I imagine, spam PA marines, a big 10 man unit of TDA marines with the new survival strategems stacked on them, nothing can survive what comes their way from actually good armies. And since the vast bulk of the new buffs are in the Doctrine equivalent you can't ally in to fill any of these holes without losing all the offense.
I really don't run with special characters that often [other than the emperor's champion]
From what I hear from the scuttlebutt a lot of folks are putting GK in the top line.
I didn't say better than marines. I said maybe 3rd there over taking Chaos.
A lot of it comes down to that the GK can put out a lot of damage real fast and a lot of mortal wounds. T-Sons level of mortal wounds. I agree they are CP hungry but being CP hungry hasn't stopped many armies doing well. But it means you have to do your job quick and fast.
I don't think they will knock off marines. I don't think anyone will till the army has as many overlapping buffs as loyalist get.
If you only have 13 CP and spend 8-10 a turn to have the kind of shooting and resilience that other armies have standard, this isn't going to work out. The strong psychic phase is really nice but it's all short range and the best stuff targets the closest enemy model... I just don't see how you can overcome any good long range shooting + screens list.
The list I'll try first will be the big Paladin wall with a lot of independent characters behind it, the psychic phase will be out of this world strong and with the 2 CP -1 damage taken for this phase strategem and -1 to be wounded psychic power I think the 10 Paladins may be able to survive one turn of enemy fire... maybe?
Edit: Actually, ignoring the new Tides and playing a GK army, just using the new psychic powers and strategems that enable them (the +6 inch range one is huge), I could see a Supreme Command of 3 Grey Knights being a useful psychic phase booster for some Imperium army that doesn't get hurt by soup and has points to spare. Imperial Guard maybe? One guy with Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom, the others with the 1" super nuke and gain a CP powers. Probably Crowe for the 1" nuke since he already has a 3" super smite, have the third guy cast Gate or the new move in the psychic phase power on him to let him get into the CP-fueled 7-9" range...?
So you could have an inferior (because Daemon Princes are just a better statline for the points) Tsons style add-on detachment but as every faction gets their own Doctrines equivalent encouraging monofaction I'm not sure who'd be interested, if they'd even be interested today. Certainly Space Marines wouldn't bother.
Paladins are similar though not 100% the same to cents. In a way a bit tougher due to the the invuln.
I agree with you on the weaknesses. But at the same time they are a counter to a lot of chaos list now but that has been kind of true. 4 wound smites are scary to my lists.
I think you will be surprised though how tough 1+ armor paladins are with transhuman popped so they can only be wounded on a 4+.
Also Centurions have 4 wounds, Paladins have 3, and a 5++ invuln has rarely even been useful to me on 2+ units. Hardly anything is AP -4. even casting Sanctuary to make it 4++ rarely helps as we've gone from Plasma spam to AP -1 and AP -2 fire.
Maybe not codex marine good but a good spot.
I just can't imagine them cracking the top 3, they just have such a dearth of options compared to the top books.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
This way it keeps the ideal of a constant beta [odd to think of a board/wargame with this} But it's the people that min/max it to get tons of Cp or generate more I feel take the fun out of the game.
Marine vs. Marine. I just can't bring myself to care. I am thinking Siegler takes it. Already has the ITC championship in the bag.
I actually picked that model up the other day, I just haven't had time to clean it up and assemble it yet. I think the character rule applying to it is a little goofy considering it's a giant metal box on legs, but eh. He's an HQ though, so now I can finally do my March of the Dreadnoughts list for fun.
Decided to test my new paints.
I have too many greys. I always wanted to do a completely greyscale Tyranid swarm...
Going to go with German Grey for my AdMech Stygies VIII robes. I think with Nuln Oil to give it depth I'll look pretty nice.
Tsons are good but Deathwatch are brutal in KT.
Just wound everything on 2s with -1 ap bolters outside of range and then hit the big stuff with a hammer.
Or at least that is my normal plan.
My list at launch was:
1. Intercessor sgt with a bolt rifle (leader)
2. Intercessor with a grenade launcher/bolt rifle
3. Frag cannon (demolitions)
4. Heavy TH (close combat)
5. Flex spot either close combat blackwatch or infernus bolter
He had a lot of 1 damage weapons which I could take advantage of and psychic phase is really hard on all those 1 would models. That kind of seems to be the problem with Deathwatch in my experience. You buy all that equipment and its still on a pretty frail body.
https://imgur.com/a/HSfEZQB
Got a test AdMech working.
Started using Screaming Bell (Copper) in the rotation, as gold / silver wasn't doing it for me. Need to add a bit more to the handheld gadget, maybe some silver on the antenna.
And the next time I do these, I absolutely am painting them before putting them all the way together.
I didn't stay up to watch the final, but Siegler versus Nayden had some incredible moments. A single Intercessor sergeant wiping out almost a full squad of Shining Spears by himself and the late game reveal that Marines can use a warlord trait to get two chapter tactics for a turn standing out in my mind.
Yea, I'll drill a small hole in a spot that wont be in view like where an arm glues to the torso and superglue a paper clip into there.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
That's from the vigilus detachment if I recall. It's pretty good.
It used to be where you got veteran intercessors from but they just rolled that into the base codex.
Also, there's a lot of people that don't like soup on the first place. Like me! When Soup debuted on 6th, I found that giving every Imperial army Imperial Guard (read: Best Troops of the game) troops was making the games so repetitive and was a massive turnoff.