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How about that support should be given to victims and virulent hate can lead to bad outcomes like suicide so maybe put energy into supporting victims.
The replies to the announcement he died is a window of what was happening.
No one is saying that people who do bad things should not be held accountable, only that suicide is an outcome that benefits no one.
Please feel free to explain how to hold them accountable when the justice system consistently spectacularly fails to do so and any sort of public accusation might hypothetically lead to someone's suicide.
Yay, we made this thread an argument about the rights of abusers instead of victims. Maybe we should drop the topic of an individual's tragic death altogether since it isn't the related to the thread topic.
What is this I don't even.
+32
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Yay, we made this thread an argument about the rights of abusers instead of victims. Maybe we should drop the topic of an individual's tragic death altogether since it isn't the related to the thread topic.
And this is the competitive sports team mindset I've been saying misses the point entirely.
Yay, we made this thread an argument about the rights of abusers instead of victims. Maybe we should drop the topic of an individual's tragic death altogether since it isn't the related to the thread topic.
Isn't it, though? It's about #MeToo in the gaming industry, and not too long after getting outed one of the abusers committed suicide.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
I don't know. I can suggest a lot of things that are terribly unrealistic. It feels bad and powerless to watch these events unfold and not be able to anything.
I think that's part of why we do all this performative crap, it's this frustration with incessantly hearing about news you can do nothing about, and your emotions have to go somewhere, so you talk and fume and lash out because the human mind in turmoil must express itself. You need to convert at least one person to your own belief system or make some enlightened thesis (go me) because how the heck else are you going to process all this?
And then we're told that this performative stuff hurts people. That's likely true - it's like a bunch of gawkers at the scene of a cardiac arrest just crowding the paramedics and making it harder for them to communicate and control the situation. It's human nature, how can we not do it?
And how can we tell who's being performative and who's being real anyway, when the people doing this stuff don't even know? This is deep psychological stuff we're trying to unfold, right now, as game-changing events are happening and we don't know who's on what side, we're suddenly arguing with people who have backed us up in the past, it's nuts. I can't tell, and I really have nothing worth contributing, but I feel like talking right now. I am a gawker; I'm being performative, so at least you know you shouldn't trust me.
Hope that helps.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
+4
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
But, far more importantly, I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
It's very difficult to care about people separate from you, because how could you ever be happy otherwise? I only relate tangentially through personal experience.
This viewpoint is entirely alien to me, and I suspect to a majority of people. I don't mean to judge you, but I think your fundamental assumptions re: how people relate to each other might be causing confusion for people who don't share the same assumptions and are trying to make sense of your posts.
Yay, we made this thread an argument about the rights of abusers instead of victims. Maybe we should drop the topic of an individual's tragic death altogether since it isn't the related to the thread topic.
"Do victims of abuse deserve rights?" isn't a very interesting topic of discussion. Well, at least not here. I'm sure it's very "interesting" on certain other places on the internet.
edit:
My apologies to everyone, I've personally had a rough day so I'm going to step out of this thread as I'm not entirely sure I'm in a right mind for it.
It's very difficult to care about people separate from you, because how could you ever be happy otherwise? I only relate tangentially through personal experience.
This viewpoint is entirely alien to me, and I suspect to a majority of people. I don't mean to judge you, but I think your fundamental assumptions re: how people relate to each other might be causing confusion for people who don't share the same assumptions and are trying to make sense of your posts.
Or maybe that's just me, I dunno.
I may have not explained correctly. If people are complete strangers to you, who you never meet or communicate with and are just names in a news article, how you feel about them is more of a reflection of what happens with your friends, family, and other personal interactions. I'm not saying that it's normal only to care about yourself and how events have affected you alone. That may be true in some sort of philosophical sense, but it's not what the mind perceives. Sorry for the confusion.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
+7
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people. Make no mistake about it, Alec's death has not ended this but has probably enshrined it.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question. The medicolegal answer is to restrict their freedoms and access for their own safety and get them timely professional help. We can agree that twitter is toxic under normal circumstances, but for him, twitter would be lethally toxic, and even being in a condition where he could interact with society could be toxic. Once you realize that society is a harmful force, mitigate the harm by putting up a wall, and slowly reintroduce it a bit at a time once the person is able to process. Get them under observation, and get them to a person that isn't over their head with this stuff, cause most people certainly are.
This is a magic solution that doesn't work out in a lot of steps. But it's way easier than fixing society.
What's the point? Well, pretend your friend or whatever got suddenly accused of something like this. Assume (and it's not a great assumption) that anything you could do for the victim is already being done and done well, or the support you could provide to the victim in your situation wouldn't be really meaningful. What should you do?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
Then what is the right Avenue given the current tools at hand.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
Then what is the right Avenue given the current tools at hand.
if you wanna help personally to help prevent this from happening to the people you can actually influence, google suicide prevention and read up on websites like this. If you wanna help Zoe Quinn, who is probably not doing great at the moment, research that. Wanna help the general effort, get your credit card out and do a little research on mental health, me too, Zoe Quinn, Holowka's family, whatever. Educate yourself and let us know if you find something good.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
Then what is the right Avenue given the current tools at hand.
A thing I'm struggling to understand with everyone denouncing this as mob justice and similar: what do you actually want? I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread would much rather see this sort of thing get handled by a justice system that takes it seriously (but that's not an option for a victim currently); I think everyone or almost everyone in this thread agrees that people using this as an excuse to threaten, dox, or harass Holowka are shitheads (but that's unavoidable once public accusations are made, which by definition could potentially reach anyone). Who are you arguing with? What do you think should have gone down differently that's actually plausible given the circumstances?
Support the victim and ignore the abuser. They need to work for forgiveness but there are literal "I'm glad they died" shit in there and that's just not acceptable. No one can see direct messages so it's up to you if you think the commentary was measured on Twitter but forgive us for not having such good faith in the internet mob.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people. Make no mistake about it, Alec's death has not ended this but has probably enshrined it.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
I agree across the board, but it doesn't address my point at all. Twitter's a ridiculous dumpster fire, but if she had posted it on facebook or instagram or her fuckin' livejournal, it either would have blown up and reached twitter or it would have died a quiet death and almost certainly had no effect. (See: all the comedians who called out Bill Cosby before Hannibal Buress and basically got ignored.) The problem is not something anyone actually involved with this could have addressed (again, other than possibly the shitheads harassing Holowka on twitter or wherever); it's decidedly off-topic for the thread, but the first actual step would be to take crimes committed on the internet (threats, harassment, etc) seriously -- that might actually have a chilling effect on the Random Internet Goon Squad. Until then, "kinda sucks [...] but what are you gonna do?" is really the best any of us can offer.
Like, people point out lot of problems.
But not many solutions.
System is fucked, and i don't know how to fix it.
Except by going megapublic in condemning abuse and forcing the system to fix, in however a small way, itself over time.
This is going to have victims.
But staying silent will have far more.
Give me a better path.
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
0
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
We’ve spent all of human history being really really nice to abusers and victimizers and scummy men
Maybe let’s not wring our hands over trying it the other way around for a few years
If the revolution starts renaming days of the week you’ll know it’s gone too far
Suicide is tragic but so is rape, abuse, harassment, the drumbeat of misogyny that drums women out of their careers
Somehow the impulse to graciously extend the compassion that every human being for sure deserves only arises when the status or wellbeing of a powerful man is threatened
Not when victims are written off for years
Not when silence is quietly demanded and enforced
The fear that MeToo may go too far is, broadly speaking, society’s psychological defense against change, but this change is desperately needed; the only problem with this movement is that it doesn’t go too far enough
Like, people point out lot of problems.
But not many solutions.
System is fucked, and i don't know how to fix it.
Except by going megapublic in condemning abuse and forcing the system to fix, in however a small way, itself over time.
This is going to have victims.
But staying silent will have far more.
Give me a better path.
The American way of innocent until proven guilty has biased the thought patterns of many. If I accuse you of a crime without proof then by tradition I am accusing an innocent...which means I must be in error or a liar seeking unlawful gain or revenge. We need an "uncertain" state of being which we can stick in the minds of the masses so I can talk about these issues at work without everyone spouting off against accusers about how they were just poor employees, spiteful, or con artists.
+1
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
We’ve spent all of human history being really really nice to abusers and victimizers and scummy men
Maybe let’s not wring our hands over trying it the other way around for a few years
If the revolution starts renaming days of the week you’ll know it’s gone too far
Suicide is tragic but so is rape, abuse, harassment, the drumbeat of misogyny that drums women out of their careers
Somehow the impulse to graciously extend the compassion that every human being for sure deserves only arises when the status or wellbeing of a powerful man is threatened
Not when victims are written off for years
Not when silence is quietly demanded and enforced
The fear that MeToo may go too far is, broadly speaking, society’s psychological defense against change, but this change is desperately needed; the only problem with this movement is that it doesn’t go too far enough
Also, while the desire for mentally ill abusers to get the assistance then need is laudable, let's also extend that sympathy to the victims who were traumatized and may continue to suffer from after effects of the abuse like PTSD.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
We’ve spent all of human history being really really nice to abusers and victimizers and scummy men
Maybe let’s not wring our hands over trying it the other way around for a few years
If the revolution starts renaming days of the week you’ll know it’s gone too far
Suicide is tragic but so is rape, abuse, harassment, the drumbeat of misogyny that drums women out of their careers
Somehow the impulse to graciously extend the compassion that every human being for sure deserves only arises when the status or wellbeing of a powerful man is threatened
Not when victims are written off for years
Not when silence is quietly demanded and enforced
The fear that MeToo may go too far is, broadly speaking, society’s psychological defense against change, but this change is desperately needed; the only problem with this movement is that it doesn’t go too far enough
Also, while the desire for mentally ill abusers to get the assistance then need is laudable, let's also extend that sympathy to the victims who were traumatized and may continue to suffer from after effects of the abuse like PTSD.
I feel like people are just glossing over the extra trauma that the victims will have to endure if they dont actually hate their abuser, because if their abuser does commit suicide that's yet another layer of guilt for the victim. Is that also a part of the calculus?
The human brain is stupid and illogical but it's there.
The suicide of Alec is bad in itself but its residual effects on his family and even Zoe are far worse.
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
0
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Condemning actions on twitter is being vigilante now?
Like, what the hell?
+4
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Condemning actions on twitter is being vigilante now?
Like, what the hell?
Condemning people is not an action of justice. It's people tossing cabbages out of a window. It also likely does absolutely nothing to help the victim of abuse.
I thought you meant something of substance or actual criminal justice.
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Condemning actions on twitter is being vigilante now?
Like, what the hell?
Condemning people is not an action of justice. It's people tossing cabbages out of a window.
I thought you meant something of substance or actual criminal justice.
Criminal justice would be nice yes.
But that ain't the world we live in.
And condemning people for doing horrible things is absolutely a part of justice.
If we just leave them to keep doing this without a voice raised against it, then they will just keep doing it.
But no, i guess criticizing sexual abusers on twitter is too far.
+8
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Condemning actions on twitter is being vigilante now?
Like, what the hell?
Condemning people is not an action of justice. It's people tossing cabbages out of a window.
I thought you meant something of substance or actual criminal justice.
Criminal justice would be nice yes.
But that ain't the world we live in.
And condemning people for doing horrible things is absolutely a part of justice.
If we just leave them to keep doing this without a voice raised against it, then they will just keep doing it.
But no, i guess criticizing sexual abusers on twitter is too far.
Did you read what people posted? Because in no way were people just simply condemning a sexual abuser on Twitter. They weren't even backing up Zoe.
Did you read what people posted when Alec killed himself?
Let me know how "🤣🤣🤣" is a great critique of his abuse.
I'm comfortable with saying that abusers have rights and that their mental well-being is worthy of consideration, but that those things are less important than the rights and mental well-being of their victims. Maybe we get better at it and try to minimize the collateral misery but we don't stop helping victims and stopping abusers.
You guys are basically asking how we can prevent people from committing suicide, right? Tough question.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
And if i can't deal with it, i should just let injustice be?
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Condemning actions on twitter is being vigilante now?
Like, what the hell?
Condemning people is not an action of justice. It's people tossing cabbages out of a window.
I thought you meant something of substance or actual criminal justice.
Criminal justice would be nice yes.
But that ain't the world we live in.
And condemning people for doing horrible things is absolutely a part of justice.
If we just leave them to keep doing this without a voice raised against it, then they will just keep doing it.
But no, i guess criticizing sexual abusers on twitter is too far.
Did you read what people posted? Because in no way were people just simply condemning a sexual abuser on Twitter. They weren't even backing up Zoe.
Did you read what people posted when Alec killed himself?
Let me know how "🤣🤣🤣" is a great critique of his abuse.
Did someone do it here? If so, i missed it.
I don't think anyone here is going to argue that people are going way past what they should.
But do you have any actual solutions to stop that from happening, without just leaving abuse victims to dry?
I don't.
And "stop being mean" or "be perfect" are not answers.
The problem quite literally is that justice system is not working, and people constantly ignore victims of abuse.
Current internet mob is an improvement from previous status quo.
yo want further improvements? Great, so do i.
How do we get them? And no "going into yourself and stop being shit" is not an answer at any level.
Posts
Please feel free to explain how to hold them accountable when the justice system consistently spectacularly fails to do so and any sort of public accusation might hypothetically lead to someone's suicide.
And this is the competitive sports team mindset I've been saying misses the point entirely.
Isn't it, though? It's about #MeToo in the gaming industry, and not too long after getting outed one of the abusers committed suicide.
Is anyone here supporting the people who threatened or harassed him? I'm not, to be clear -- they're awful. Is there anything that *reasonable people* (ie, not twitter dipshits sending death threats) could have done to lead to a different outcome here? If everyone had "ignored the abuser", would he actually have faced consequences? How precisely do you ignore the abuser while supporting the victim -- is it some ridiculous "he-who-must-not-be-named" scenario?
I will also note here that everyone preaching "support the victim, ignore the abuser" is spending an awful lot of time focusing on the people who (hypothetically) attacked him on twitter and comparatively little time on Holowka himself.
I don't know. I can suggest a lot of things that are terribly unrealistic. It feels bad and powerless to watch these events unfold and not be able to anything.
I think that's part of why we do all this performative crap, it's this frustration with incessantly hearing about news you can do nothing about, and your emotions have to go somewhere, so you talk and fume and lash out because the human mind in turmoil must express itself. You need to convert at least one person to your own belief system or make some enlightened thesis (go me) because how the heck else are you going to process all this?
And then we're told that this performative stuff hurts people. That's likely true - it's like a bunch of gawkers at the scene of a cardiac arrest just crowding the paramedics and making it harder for them to communicate and control the situation. It's human nature, how can we not do it?
And how can we tell who's being performative and who's being real anyway, when the people doing this stuff don't even know? This is deep psychological stuff we're trying to unfold, right now, as game-changing events are happening and we don't know who's on what side, we're suddenly arguing with people who have backed us up in the past, it's nuts. I can't tell, and I really have nothing worth contributing, but I feel like talking right now. I am a gawker; I'm being performative, so at least you know you shouldn't trust me.
Hope that helps.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Never said ignore the abuser, this is something being made whole cloth.
This is not a zero sum game. It's not rooting for a sports team. It's the full life cycle of abuse put on display and the remnants of suicide laid bare.
I still feel quite comfortable assuming some people went too far against Alec. We can see them going too far against Zoe and the rest of the software team on Steam. I can also see people celebrating Alec's suicide on Twitter. To think that someone didn't go the extra mile in this one instance is just something I can't parse.
The post I quoted literally explicitly stated "ignore the abuser".
For what it's worth, I don't disagree that some people probably did target Holowka with death threats and assorted other horrific shit, I just strongly dislike the attitude of "I'm going to make this claim without evidence and then sneeringly tell anyone who questions it to do their research". But that's a distraction from the main issue.
Beyond that, I guess, I still don't really understand the issue. Are people here celebrating Holowka's suicide? Are they supporting the people celebrating Holowka's suicide? Who here -- in this thread -- are you trying to convince? And of what?
I am dead set against mob justice. I think that much is clear.
But, far more importantly, I am dead set against trying to reduce this thing down into a binary issue, where there are sides and if you go for one you must be going against another.
We had someone say something to the effect of "this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" in this thread. I won't dig it up because I don't want to call anyone out, but it's here. We also had people making some dubious claims about the nature of suicide, more than 1, in what felt like an effort to paint the issue as one of a narcissist or abuser and not one of someone who has been verified to be struggling with mental health.
I want people to stop just for a second and look at what happened: A guy is abused, has mental health issues, abuses, and ends in suicide after being begged all night not to do it. His family said "help people, don't start shit." Zoe has dropped off the face of the earth. Whatever sick fucked up situation this was, there was absolutely no justice served for Alec or Alec's victims today, and I can't help but feel our social media crusaders likely contributed a decent amount. It's not like social media hasn't been the straw that broke the camels back before.
This viewpoint is entirely alien to me, and I suspect to a majority of people. I don't mean to judge you, but I think your fundamental assumptions re: how people relate to each other might be causing confusion for people who don't share the same assumptions and are trying to make sense of your posts.
Or maybe that's just me, I dunno.
"Do victims of abuse deserve rights?" isn't a very interesting topic of discussion. Well, at least not here. I'm sure it's very "interesting" on certain other places on the internet.
My apologies to everyone, I've personally had a rough day so I'm going to step out of this thread as I'm not entirely sure I'm in a right mind for it.
I may have not explained correctly. If people are complete strangers to you, who you never meet or communicate with and are just names in a news article, how you feel about them is more of a reflection of what happens with your friends, family, and other personal interactions. I'm not saying that it's normal only to care about yourself and how events have affected you alone. That may be true in some sort of philosophical sense, but it's not what the mind perceives. Sorry for the confusion.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
"this metoo stuff is new, kinda sucks dude killed himself but what are you gonna do? *shrug*" is, while woefully flippant given the gravity of the situation, basically accurate in spirit, in my opinion. It's tragic that Holowka died, but I don't think there's anything any reasonable person (again, meaning not some dipshit on twitter making death threats or whatever) could have done that would have resulted in a different outcome without making serious sacrifices. Quinn could have chosen not to publicize the accusation in the first place (but we all know how that goes: even if she tries to make it privately, it gets swept under the rug and Holowka not only avoids consequences but quite possibly continues abusing). People could have chosen not to amplify Quinn's post, but I don't think there's some magic threshold where it would reach enough people to make a difference but avoid reaching people who will do horrid shit. I don't think the Random Internet Goon Squad can be avoided (short of simply keeping silent), and as far as reasoning with them to change their behavior... good luck, I guess?
(Beyond that: I'm deeply skeptical that it was random nobodies on the internet that drove him to suicide rather than the complete overnight collapse of his career and social life. Obviously that's just opinion on both our parts, though, and we'll likely never know for sure.)
Here's the thing... with Alec's suicide is now everyone in his family or who loved him is now more likely to commit suicide.
Zoe will never be able to have any kind of closure of that part of her life and there's a likely chance she blames herself for his suicide. Her life is measurably worse because he's dead. Survivors guilt is not to be trifled with.
So now we're at the point where her going forward, which to be absolutely clear was the right thing to do, has caused a cascade of really fucking bad shit for all kinds of people. Make no mistake about it, Alec's death has not ended this but has probably enshrined it.
Maybe Twitter is the wrong avenue in which to do this, because everything that touches Twitter turns to shit.
This is a magic solution that doesn't work out in a lot of steps. But it's way easier than fixing society.
What's the point? Well, pretend your friend or whatever got suddenly accused of something like this. Assume (and it's not a great assumption) that anything you could do for the victim is already being done and done well, or the support you could provide to the victim in your situation wouldn't be really meaningful. What should you do?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Then what is the right Avenue given the current tools at hand.
if you wanna help personally to help prevent this from happening to the people you can actually influence, google suicide prevention and read up on websites like this. If you wanna help Zoe Quinn, who is probably not doing great at the moment, research that. Wanna help the general effort, get your credit card out and do a little research on mental health, me too, Zoe Quinn, Holowka's family, whatever. Educate yourself and let us know if you find something good.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I wish I knew.
I just feel like Twitter has proven to be not it.
I agree across the board, but it doesn't address my point at all. Twitter's a ridiculous dumpster fire, but if she had posted it on facebook or instagram or her fuckin' livejournal, it either would have blown up and reached twitter or it would have died a quiet death and almost certainly had no effect. (See: all the comedians who called out Bill Cosby before Hannibal Buress and basically got ignored.) The problem is not something anyone actually involved with this could have addressed (again, other than possibly the shitheads harassing Holowka on twitter or wherever); it's decidedly off-topic for the thread, but the first actual step would be to take crimes committed on the internet (threats, harassment, etc) seriously -- that might actually have a chilling effect on the Random Internet Goon Squad. Until then, "kinda sucks [...] but what are you gonna do?" is really the best any of us can offer.
But not many solutions.
System is fucked, and i don't know how to fix it.
Except by going megapublic in condemning abuse and forcing the system to fix, in however a small way, itself over time.
This is going to have victims.
But staying silent will have far more.
Give me a better path.
Because if yes than i'm going to disagree with you.
I think I'd edit my statement to be "slow to judge," so you'd probably disagree even more.
I think that the question really being asked here is how can we both seek justice for those who have been victims of abusers but at the same time actually achieve justice for those victims.
The problem was in this case that the seeking of justice did not result in justice. Not because nothing happened (which is the typical outcome) but because something very awful happened (the dude probably didn't deserve to die). Prior to this, because of the fact that nothing normally happens through the standard legal system the route to seek justice was to do so socially. To destroy the persons reputation and ability to function in society without everyone knowing who they are and what they've done.
Well, when you do that, you risk this outcome.
Is that something that we are going to be comfortable with. Is it worth to hurt the abusers? That some of them might perhaps be pushed to an extreme? If not, if this is not a way that we think we can really get justice, then what?
I'm actually interested in the conversation at the more abstract level than this specific instance. What exactly are we seeking here? Is justice for the victims of abuse to hurt the abusers in equal or greater measure? Is it to visit retribution of some kind on them commensurate with the pain and suffering that they've inflicted on others? I honestly don't know.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Maybe let’s not wring our hands over trying it the other way around for a few years
If the revolution starts renaming days of the week you’ll know it’s gone too far
Suicide is tragic but so is rape, abuse, harassment, the drumbeat of misogyny that drums women out of their careers
Somehow the impulse to graciously extend the compassion that every human being for sure deserves only arises when the status or wellbeing of a powerful man is threatened
Not when victims are written off for years
Not when silence is quietly demanded and enforced
The fear that MeToo may go too far is, broadly speaking, society’s psychological defense against change, but this change is desperately needed; the only problem with this movement is that it doesn’t go too far enough
The American way of innocent until proven guilty has biased the thought patterns of many. If I accuse you of a crime without proof then by tradition I am accusing an innocent...which means I must be in error or a liar seeking unlawful gain or revenge. We need an "uncertain" state of being which we can stick in the minds of the masses so I can talk about these issues at work without everyone spouting off against accusers about how they were just poor employees, spiteful, or con artists.
Also, while the desire for mentally ill abusers to get the assistance then need is laudable, let's also extend that sympathy to the victims who were traumatized and may continue to suffer from after effects of the abuse like PTSD.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Pursue justice without losing your humanity in the process. Search inside yourself: is there any part of you that is looking for an excuse to hurt someone? Find it and deal with it.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I feel like people are just glossing over the extra trauma that the victims will have to endure if they dont actually hate their abuser, because if their abuser does commit suicide that's yet another layer of guilt for the victim. Is that also a part of the calculus?
The human brain is stupid and illogical but it's there.
The suicide of Alec is bad in itself but its residual effects on his family and even Zoe are far worse.
That's part of living in a society
You dont get to be a vigilante.
Like, what the hell?
Condemning people is not an action of justice. It's people tossing cabbages out of a window. It also likely does absolutely nothing to help the victim of abuse.
I thought you meant something of substance or actual criminal justice.
But that ain't the world we live in.
And condemning people for doing horrible things is absolutely a part of justice.
If we just leave them to keep doing this without a voice raised against it, then they will just keep doing it.
But no, i guess criticizing sexual abusers on twitter is too far.
Did you read what people posted? Because in no way were people just simply condemning a sexual abuser on Twitter. They weren't even backing up Zoe.
Did you read what people posted when Alec killed himself?
Let me know how "🤣🤣🤣" is a great critique of his abuse.
I don't think anyone here is going to argue that people are going way past what they should.
But do you have any actual solutions to stop that from happening, without just leaving abuse victims to dry?
I don't.
And "stop being mean" or "be perfect" are not answers.
The problem quite literally is that justice system is not working, and people constantly ignore victims of abuse.
Current internet mob is an improvement from previous status quo.
yo want further improvements? Great, so do i.
How do we get them? And no "going into yourself and stop being shit" is not an answer at any level.
Suicide to escape consequences and shift even more burden onto your victims is entirely the abuser's responsibility.