Yeah, he is going to openly cheer the slaughter and justify it.
Edit: I assume no one has told Trump the PKK are socialist yet.
This is a point of contention among practitioners and future practioners. There is no easy answer, because there is/was interaction between the YPG/YPJ and the PKK, and Turkey is a NATO ally. If we choose Rojava over Turkey we are telling a NATO ally to kick rocks over an organization with ties to another group which is actively engaged in an insurgency against said NATO ally and which we have declared a terrorist organization.
Of course we also are, even if not from the establishment policy maker and practitioner perspective, betraying the Kurds again if we don't.
The central question is: Do you think NATO is important?
I think this is something of a false binary - we’re (hypothetically) capable of walking grey lines, providing support to allies who aren’t fully aligned with each other (and may be diametrically opposed in some fashions) while working towards mutual solutions. I’d suggest it’s a necessary capability to be effective on the international stage.
As regards NATO - do you think this is a decision made with any basis in maintaining the meaningful existence of NATO? Or that the rest of NATO is fully aligned with Erdogan’s interests on this matter?
Of course we can "walk grey lines", we have been doing it by working with the SDF. But that isn't without some consequence. In this case, however, it isn't necessarily that they aren't fully aligned or are only opposed in some fashions: the organization we are working with has ties with another organization we have declared terrorists and who are engaged in an active insurgency against our NATO ally.
To the first question: I would have to guess not, or at least not for the sake of NATO itself given the administration's position on NATO in the past (which aligns with a non-establishment policy framework, Realists are discussing whether they have really gotten what they wanted with this admin).
To the second question: I see two outcomes to this.
1. We (NATO) decide Turkey's interest in Syria (security) does not align with the rest of NATO despite their current internal military conflict, and the Realist argument is made for them.
2. We decide that the conceit of NATO is more important than a Kurdish state.
From my personal perspective (I probably fall strongly in the Constructivist school), I support the Kurds and I think we should. But I recognize the reality of our NATO membership and the importance of Turkey as an ally to help check the naval aspirations of Russia.
I feel like this is where a functioning State Department could thread the needle and maintain support for Rojova while mediating any security concerns Turkey has with their new neighbor.
I don't think that is possible without Turkey pointing to our working with the SDF as working with a group aligned with the PKK, which is engaged in an insurgency against Turkey who is our NATO ally.
It comes down again, in my view, to how important you think NATO is specifically and international institutions are generally. If you think NATO is important specifically, and international institutions are important generally, it is difficult to square the circle on the Kurdistan question. Especially when it involves Turkey.
Julia Davis: The Trump administration is pulling out of the Open Skies Treaty, which allows the United States and our allies and partners in Europe to monitor Russian military deployments. Withdrawal risks dividing the transatlantic alliance.
So like what is this? Time to start paying out as fast as possible because he thinks he's getting impeached.
Yeah, he is going to openly cheer the slaughter and justify it.
Edit: I assume no one has told Trump the PKK are socialist yet.
This is a point of contention among practitioners and future practioners. There is no easy answer, because there is/was interaction between the YPG/YPJ and the PKK, and Turkey is a NATO ally. If we choose Rojava over Turkey we are telling a NATO ally to kick rocks over an organization with ties to another group which is actively engaged in an insurgency against said NATO ally and which we have declared a terrorist organization.
Of course we also are, even if not from the establishment policy maker and practitioner perspective, betraying the Kurds again if we don't.
The central question is: Do you think NATO is important?
I think this is something of a false binary - we’re (hypothetically) capable of walking grey lines, providing support to allies who aren’t fully aligned with each other (and may be diametrically opposed in some fashions) while working towards mutual solutions. I’d suggest it’s a necessary capability to be effective on the international stage.
As regards NATO - do you think this is a decision made with any basis in maintaining the meaningful existence of NATO? Or that the rest of NATO is fully aligned with Erdogan’s interests on this matter?
Of course we can "walk grey lines", we have been doing it by working with the SDF. But that isn't without some consequence. In this case, however, it isn't necessarily that they aren't fully aligned or are only opposed in some fashions: the organization we are working with has ties with another organization we have declared terrorists and who are engaged in an active insurgency against our NATO ally.
To the first question: I would have to guess not, or at least not for the sake of NATO itself given the administration's position on NATO in the past (which aligns with a non-establishment policy framework, Realists are discussing whether they have really gotten what they wanted with this admin).
To the second question: I see two outcomes to this.
1. We (NATO) decide Turkey's interest in Syria (security) does not align with the rest of NATO despite their current internal military conflict, and the Realist argument is made for them.
2. We decide that the conceit of NATO is more important than a Kurdish state. Thanks
From my personal perspective (I probably fall strongly in the Constructivist school), I support the Kurds and I think we should. But I recognize the reality of our NATO membership and the importance of Turkey as an ally to help check the naval aspirations of Russia.
I feel like this is where a functioning State Department could thread the needle and maintain support for Rojova while mediating any security concerns Turkey has with their new neighbor.
I don't think that is possible without Turkey pointing to our working with the SDF as working with a group aligned with the PKK, which is engaged in an insurgency against Turkey who is our NATO ally.
It comes down again, in my view, to how important you think NATO is specifically and international institutions are generally. If you think NATO is important specifically, and international institutions are important generally, it is difficult to square the circle on the Kurdistan question. Especially when it involves Turkey.
That Turkey has been banging that drum for years and not left or invoked article 5 says to me that there's still aa equation to be balanced here without making it a NATO issue. Rojova has a lot to lose if we're forced to do so, and Turkey, if nothing else, wants their F35s. Both sides have motivation to keep us happy, and we all have room to make concessions.
Trump, in late afternoon remarks to reporters, appeared largely unconcerned at the prospect of Turkish forces attacking the Kurds, who include a faction he described as “natural enemies” of the Turks.
“But I have told Turkey that if they do anything outside of what we would think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy,” Trump said.
One official described that White House announcement as a botched effort appeared aimed at making Trump look bold for ending a war. The official said attempts by the Pentagon and State Department to make the statement stronger in its opposition to Turkey’s military action were unsuccessful.
Trump defended his latest decision, acknowledging in tweets that “the Kurds fought with us” but adding that they “were paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so.”
“I held off this fight for almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home,” he wrote.
In his later remarks, Trump asserted that American troops in Syria are not performing useful work. They are, he said, “not fighting.” They are “just there,” he said.
Trump would consider almost nothing to not be humane so that is not much of a reassurance
Trump, in late afternoon remarks to reporters, appeared largely unconcerned at the prospect of Turkish forces attacking the Kurds, who include a faction he described as “natural enemies” of the Turks.
“But I have told Turkey that if they do anything outside of what we would think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy,” Trump said.
One official described that White House announcement as a botched effort appeared aimed at making Trump look bold for ending a war. The official said attempts by the Pentagon and State Department to make the statement stronger in its opposition to Turkey’s military action were unsuccessful.
Trump defended his latest decision, acknowledging in tweets that “the Kurds fought with us” but adding that they “were paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so.”
“I held off this fight for almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home,” he wrote.
In his later remarks, Trump asserted that American troops in Syria are not performing useful work. They are, he said, “not fighting.” They are “just there,” he said.
Trump would consider almost nothing to not be humane so that is not much of a reassurance
Christ, he is a fool.
I assert that American troops stationed at our southern border are not performing useful work. There are not fighting (thank you Posse Comitatus Act). They are just there. At least our troops in Syria are fighting ISIS and supporting people whom aspire to ideals we only pretend to value and uphold.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
“But I have told Turkey that if they do anything outside of what we would think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy,” Trump said.
1. Considering what's going on in the concentration camps this admin is running right here in GREAT AMERICA, "what we would think is humane" is a very low bar.
2. The wrath and the decimated economy would, of course, both be ours.
So, uh, what he's referring to in his warped telling is that Mattis said "If you don’t fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately,"
In other words, if you're going to fuck up diplomacy, then we're going to need to shoot a lot more people. In Trump's mind, that comes out to "We don't have enough ammunition to shoot all the people we want to," which is fucked up on ten thousand levels.
Trump, in late afternoon remarks to reporters, appeared largely unconcerned at the prospect of Turkish forces attacking the Kurds, who include a faction he described as “natural enemies” of the Turks.
“But I have told Turkey that if they do anything outside of what we would think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy,” Trump said.
One official described that White House announcement as a botched effort appeared aimed at making Trump look bold for ending a war. The official said attempts by the Pentagon and State Department to make the statement stronger in its opposition to Turkey’s military action were unsuccessful.
Trump defended his latest decision, acknowledging in tweets that “the Kurds fought with us” but adding that they “were paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so.”
“I held off this fight for almost 3 years, but it is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home,” he wrote.
In his later remarks, Trump asserted that American troops in Syria are not performing useful work. They are, he said, “not fighting.” They are “just there,” he said.
Trump would consider almost nothing to not be humane so that is not much of a reassurance
Christ, he is a fool.
A person with firsthand knowledge of the call told Newsweek that Trump “got rolled” by Turkey because “The President has no spine.”
So I don’t think Erdogan gives a shit what Trump is saying now.
The God-Emperor has no clothes. He's not a strong leader, but if you pat him on the head and praise him like an overexcited puppy, he'll give you whatever you want in anticipation of more.
It's like the end-game of a round of Civilization where one civilization has another on the ropes, and is slowly bleeding it dry of anything useful before finally putting it out of its misery. Putin, Erdogan, Kim and the rest are all just calling in their pounds of flabby orange flesh before he goes down in flames.
The God-Emperor has no clothes. He's not a strong leader, but if you pat him on the head and praise him like an overexcited puppy, he'll give you whatever you want in anticipation of more.
I hate to break this to you, but the rest of the world has known this all along.
The God-Emperor has no clothes. He's not a strong leader, but if you pat him on the head and praise him like an overexcited puppy, he'll give you whatever you want in anticipation of more.
I hate to break this to you, but the rest of the world has known this all along.
Maybe not "all along". I think it's likely a lot of world leaders thought "There's no way he could be as stupid as he seems, there's no way the electorate or the body politic could allow that to happen.". But they sure wised up fast, and this hasn't been new to them for a long time.
So has it been covered here already? Sorry if so but this was news to me. Apparently one month ago, the US asked its Kurdish allies to dismantal all of its border forts to create a "safe zone" at Turkey's request.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
People thought “the system” would contain him. Turns out the system is rotten, too.
The system is only as good as the people running it
Further no system can contain a person with full power to disassemble the system. Anyone who has actually tried to contain him has checked their Twitter the next day and found out they resigned overnight.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
It is intentional. By being vague about the source he makes it harder to fact check.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
Ehhh... he's been doing that all along. "Some people say..." "People come up to me all the time and say 'sir'...", "a lot of people are saying".
Besides it being utter garbage, I doubt Trump could name a general serving under him that isn't a member of the joint chiefs. Hell, I think he'd be lucky to name all five beyond the Chairman.
That he specifically says "I was told by a top general, maybe the top of them all", is indicative that he has no idea who these people are.
EDIT: Regarding "top of them all", he probably means Chairman, but he could be referring to any of the Chiefs (as top general of their specific branch). But again, he has no fucking idea.
Foreign leaders knew exactly what Trump was from jump street. Japanese President Shinzo Abe's exasperated expression at their first meeting was telling.
People thought “the system” would contain him. Turns out the system is rotten, too.
The system is only as good as the people running it
Further no system can contain a person with full power to disassemble the system. Anyone who has actually tried to contain him has checked their Twitter the next day and found out they resigned overnight.
Trump was elected in part to deliberately implode the system from the inside out with the belief that big bad government had to be taken down. But much like dismantling Obamacare, there was zero thought given to a contingency plan for what would replace said big government. Only Trump's vast nepotism and corrupt cronyism. If international leaders wanted to deal with Trump, they had to kiss the ring or at least shower him with empty praise.
I don't think the President actually counts as a military official
With the exception of the first George Bush - a WWII veteran - every GOP president since Reagan has used their Commander in Chief status to play dress-up. Trump does it less than GWB or Reagan, but that’s mainly because he prefers the God King CEO schtick.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
There's positions like the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Army Chief of Staff.
The president obviously outranks them but isn't considered a general or really even military.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
There's positions like the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Army Chief of Staff.
The president obviously outranks them but isn't considered a general or really even military.
Which is deliberate. The military is supposed to have civilian oversight and that only really works if the ultimate link in the chain of command is a civilian
Posts
The obvious answer is that "We don't support Turkey's actions" was the official line right up until Trump changed his mind at the last second.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Trump doesn't read statements, only tweets.
I don't think that is possible without Turkey pointing to our working with the SDF as working with a group aligned with the PKK, which is engaged in an insurgency against Turkey who is our NATO ally.
It comes down again, in my view, to how important you think NATO is specifically and international institutions are generally. If you think NATO is important specifically, and international institutions are important generally, it is difficult to square the circle on the Kurdistan question. Especially when it involves Turkey.
So like what is this? Time to start paying out as fast as possible because he thinks he's getting impeached.
Did you think Trump wouldn’t get him anything?
He's granted boons to Erdogan and Putin so far, anyone want to guess what Kim will get?
That Turkey has been banging that drum for years and not left or invoked article 5 says to me that there's still aa equation to be balanced here without making it a NATO issue. Rojova has a lot to lose if we're forced to do so, and Turkey, if nothing else, wants their F35s. Both sides have motivation to keep us happy, and we all have room to make concessions.
Trump would consider almost nothing to not be humane so that is not much of a reassurance
Christ, he is a fool.
I assert that American troops stationed at our southern border are not performing useful work. There are not fighting (thank you Posse Comitatus Act). They are just there. At least our troops in Syria are fighting ISIS and supporting people whom aspire to ideals we only pretend to value and uphold.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
1. Considering what's going on in the concentration camps this admin is running right here in GREAT AMERICA, "what we would think is humane" is a very low bar.
2. The wrath and the decimated economy would, of course, both be ours.
I am not sure how anybody negotiates with Trump outside of treating him like a volatile toddler.
https://www.businessinsider.com/mattis-state-department-funding-need-to-buy-more-ammunition-2017-2
In other words, if you're going to fuck up diplomacy, then we're going to need to shoot a lot more people. In Trump's mind, that comes out to "We don't have enough ammunition to shoot all the people we want to," which is fucked up on ten thousand levels.
A person with firsthand knowledge of the call told Newsweek that Trump “got rolled” by Turkey because “The President has no spine.”
So I don’t think Erdogan gives a shit what Trump is saying now.
I thought 'In my yuge wisdom' was bad
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The God-Emperor has no clothes. He's not a strong leader, but if you pat him on the head and praise him like an overexcited puppy, he'll give you whatever you want in anticipation of more.
It's like the end-game of a round of Civilization where one civilization has another on the ropes, and is slowly bleeding it dry of anything useful before finally putting it out of its misery. Putin, Erdogan, Kim and the rest are all just calling in their pounds of flabby orange flesh before he goes down in flames.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
It's crazy how fast, and easily, Trump has helped destroy it.
He's not well at all. But he's in the perfect place to do the maximum damage.
I hate to break this to you, but the rest of the world has known this all along.
Maybe not "all along". I think it's likely a lot of world leaders thought "There's no way he could be as stupid as he seems, there's no way the electorate or the body politic could allow that to happen.". But they sure wised up fast, and this hasn't been new to them for a long time.
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2019/09/03/us-backed-syrian-kurds-to-remove-fortifications-from-turkish-border-as-part-of-safe-zone-deal/
And the US seems to have waited for those forts to be dismantled before pulling out.
Like that's super fucked up.
The system is only as good as the people running it
His lying is getting very lazy though, I mean, he doesn't even name a general to be thrown under the bus.
Even in his lies he doesn't even bother to remember the name of his generals or their rank, or what they do.
I would expect a commander-in-chief to at least know his generals, they're the people you're commanding, Trump!
What's next? "A wife of mine, maybe even my current wife, once told me that we're out of pancakes, Can you imagine? I made sure that none of her future husbands has to be without pancakes ever again."
Also, as an aside, isn't the "top of them all" of US generals the commander-in-chief himself?
Further no system can contain a person with full power to disassemble the system. Anyone who has actually tried to contain him has checked their Twitter the next day and found out they resigned overnight.
It is intentional. By being vague about the source he makes it harder to fact check.
Ehhh... he's been doing that all along. "Some people say..." "People come up to me all the time and say 'sir'...", "a lot of people are saying".
Besides it being utter garbage, I doubt Trump could name a general serving under him that isn't a member of the joint chiefs. Hell, I think he'd be lucky to name all five beyond the Chairman.
That he specifically says "I was told by a top general, maybe the top of them all", is indicative that he has no idea who these people are.
EDIT: Regarding "top of them all", he probably means Chairman, but he could be referring to any of the Chiefs (as top general of their specific branch). But again, he has no fucking idea.
Trump was elected in part to deliberately implode the system from the inside out with the belief that big bad government had to be taken down. But much like dismantling Obamacare, there was zero thought given to a contingency plan for what would replace said big government. Only Trump's vast nepotism and corrupt cronyism. If international leaders wanted to deal with Trump, they had to kiss the ring or at least shower him with empty praise.
With the exception of the first George Bush - a WWII veteran - every GOP president since Reagan has used their Commander in Chief status to play dress-up. Trump does it less than GWB or Reagan, but that’s mainly because he prefers the God King CEO schtick.
There's positions like the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Army Chief of Staff.
The president obviously outranks them but isn't considered a general or really even military.
Doing things half assed is the motto of the current administration so I guess this isn't surprising.
Edit:
Al-Monitor reporter:
What incompetent messaging.
Which is deliberate. The military is supposed to have civilian oversight and that only really works if the ultimate link in the chain of command is a civilian
"Turkey already has a large Kurdish population"
What is that supposed to imply? It is pretty well known Turkey's treatment of the Kurds in Turkey has not exactly been the best.
What it tells me is that the man is a know-nothing.
Both in the historical and literal senses
They used to have a lot more Kurds, too. Iraq as well. I wonder what happened to them...
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State