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The [Impeachment] of the 45th President of the United States

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    PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    I don't trust anything that man posts.

    That said... are 5G phones in the wild?

    Not true 5g but my galaxy s10 has a 5 g indicator.

    Also guys can we wait for actual info to be released. Because we freaked out when it was october then another leak said november and that didn't maybe show maybe the leaks aren't confirmations and maybe just maybe we should wait for official news before we declare this the most failure that's ever been failed?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
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    Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Pretty sure the whistleblower report actually mentions that they were trying this with Zelensky’s predecessor too

    If you follow that link to the twitter posting, there's a dude directly below the tweet that points out all Rudy's "proof" text does is validate a piece of the whisteblower report, in that on that date the state department worked to help Ukraine navigate just what the fuck Donald was talking about.

    It's also hilarious to me they were spending this kind of effort on Biden, who's already going to struggle to get ahead of his creepy touching issue anyway.

    Dark_Side on
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    evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    I think it's also of note that this Ukraine phone call is listed as the issue that Democrats are "united around".
    In terms of how we proceed on the ultimate question of impeachment, this is not only the strongest case, but it is the one Democrats are united around. -- Rep. Daniel Kildee (D-Mich.)
    The Democratic party is large, and contains a lot more demographics than are represented on this forum. To me, Trump's emolument clause violations are sufficient cause in and of themselves for impeachment, but an impeachment vote based on those could have Democratic Representatives voting against it, not just Republicans, and that would be bad, politically-speaking, even if it passes the House. Now we have something that's so obviously bad that Pelosi can pass impeachment in the House as a united front. I think this issue can get us every single Democratic Representative voting to impeach, along with a few Republican Representatives, and that's before the investigation really gets under way. If unrelated issues are added, I think we lose that unity, and we need it if we want this to succeed.

    With regards to the timetable, Congress has a two week recess coming up. During this time, the investigation will continue, while the rest of the Democratic party has the job of selling impeachment to the American public. I think by the end of this recess, we'll know how this is going to turn out.

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    Dems are just playing the timing game, trying to work out the most politically beneficial (or perhaps least damaging) time to impeach Trump and subsequently lose in the Senate. Make no mistake that everything they do is aimed at 2020. They know the outcome is a foregone conclusion, barring a complete mutiny in the GOP, so they're just thinking about the optics and public opinion. I'm not even criticizing them for it, that's just what it is.

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    No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    mcp wrote: »

    Rudy is posting his text messages i guess

    I'm not a lawyer and don't know what he's doing but it seems like this is a bad idea

    And this is PRECISELY what @Donnicton and I mean when we say that mounting pressure will prompt unforced errors.

    I'm not saying we should break out champagne, just that we should take a step back and let things take a little more shape before breaking out pitchforks.

    I don’t understand the message he’s trying to get across by showing that text message...

    He's the Hero, or something.

    I wish I was making that up.

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    CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I'm wondering if the Democratic party is trying to rush because of the holidays.

    Visiting family for Thanksgiving and Christmas while an impeachment trial is underway sounds like absolute hell.

    Yeah, this seems very sadistically timed to make some EPIC family arguments.

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    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    So, having listened to an interview on NPR on my drive home with some R Congresscritter (I think) who was spouting similar nonsense, I think what Rudy is getting at is that if that the whistleblower is all hearsay and not something that the whistleblower actually witnessed. Therefore, we don't know whether or not it's true. Since there's no hard evidence and no direct witness, there's nothing there, therefore, it's a fabricated hit job.

    This ignores that they've released hard evidence backing up the central claims, that the whistleblower detailed specific persons and whatnot to find more evidence, and equates hearsay straight to "never happened."

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    ArdolArdol Registered User regular
    They released a damning transcript...what the whistleblower knew is irrelevant. They could have made the whole thing up but Trump has since publicly admitted to the worst of the crimes.

    They can disbelieve the person who said they untied the bag, but the cat is still gone. Or something. Maybe a barn door metaphor?

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    ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited September 2019
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think some of the comparisons made to Watergate regarding the length of investigation are off base. Watergate took a long time because we had to spend time hunting for evidence and unraveling who did what and building a case against generally competent criminals.

    Watergate also happened close to half a century ago. Even if we assume perfectly spherical criminals of uniform density in both cases, the tools and methods people have available to pull things together, coordinate cases, communicate a whole lot of stuff to the public, etc., are almost unrecognizably different at points now compared to then. There's bits and pieces of this - peripheral ones to be sure, that don't draw the whole picture or involve any of the principals - that I could probably have figured out with some careful reading of American tweets and Ukrainian news releases, and I don't have access to the really fun stuff.

    If Watergate happened last year instead of in the 1970s, with the same people doing the same stuff, I'm pretty sure their coverup would collapse in days or weeks rather than the months it did take.

    Zibblsnrt on
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    Kristmas KthulhuKristmas Kthulhu Currently Kultist Kthulhu Registered User regular
    Years. Two Years, almost.

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    BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Ardol wrote: »
    They released a damning transcript...what the whistleblower knew is irrelevant. They could have made the whole thing up but Trump has since publicly admitted to the worst of the crimes.

    They can disbelieve the person who said they untied the bag, but the cat is still gone. Or something. Maybe a barn door metaphor?

    I think this is another case where they're trying to talk past the facts. It is a strategy that democrats still haven't solved, so I wouldn't be wholly surprised if it works this time, too.

    BloodySloth on
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    Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    mcp wrote: »


    Rudy is posting his text messages i guess

    I'm not a lawyer and don't know what he's doing but it seems like this is a bad idea

    Heh, first comment posted:
    Dude, this text message of July 19 says you will talk to Mr. Yermak on July 22.

    The complaint says you met with Mr. Yermak on August 2... which, you know, is AFTER July 22.

    How does this text message's timestamp help you exactly?

    Which is completely true btw. Giuliani just basically confirmed that part of the complaint.

    Like, this this dude knows how time works, right?

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    ZekZek Registered User regular
    Rudy is referring to his claim that the State Department told him to do it. He wants people to believe that he was just an unwilling pawn doing what he was told. He's in survival mode, though I think it still probably isn't in his interest to openly turn on anyone.

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    ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Thinking this is a ploy by Republicans requires believing in a massive conspiracy theory given how improbable them remaining tight lipped would be. Fox is not reacting to it like some kind of trick.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/09/madness-at-fox-news-as-trump-faces-impeachment-lachlan-murdoch
    Trump’s final bulwark is liable to be his first one: Fox News. Fox controls the flow of information—what facts are, whether allegations are to be believed—to huge swaths of his base. And Republican senators, who will ultimately decide whether the president remains in office, are in turn exquisitely sensitive to the opinions of Trump’s base. But even before the whistle-blower’s revelations, Fox was having something of a Trump identity crisis, and that bulwark has been wavering. In recent weeks, Trump has bashed Fox News on Twitter, taking particular issue lately with its polling, which, like other reputable polls, has shown the president under significant water. Meanwhile, Trump’s biggest booster seems to be having doubts of his own. This morning, Sean Hannity told friends the whistle-blower’s allegations are “really bad,” a person briefed on Hannity’s conversations told me. (Hannity did not respond to a request for comment). And according to four sources, Fox Corp CEO Lachlan Murdoch is already thinking about how to position the network for a post-Trump future. A person close to Lachlan told me that Fox News has been the highest rated cable network for seventeen years, and “the success has never depended on any one administration.” (A Fox Corp spokesperson declined to comment.)
    The ultimate referee of this fight will be Lachlan Murdoch. In recent months, Rupert’s oldest son has been holding strategy conversations with Fox executives and anchors about how Fox News should prepare for life after Trump. Among the powerful voices advising Lachlan that Fox should decisively break with the president is former House speaker Paul Ryan, who joined the Fox board in March. “Paul is embarrassed about Trump and now he has the power to do something about it,” an executive who’s spoken with Ryan told me. (Ryan did not return a call seeking comment.) But a person more sympathetic to Trump has told Lachlan that Fox should remain loyal to Trump’s supporters, even if the network has to break from the man. “We need to represent our viewers,” the source said. “Fox is about defending our viewers from the people who hate them. That’s where our power comes from. It’s not about Trump.”
    Paul Ryan, Speaker of the House from October 2015 to January 2019, continues to be a sad sack of garbage incapable of standing up to Trump.
    It's an incredible indictment of the political landscape that Ryan feels he has more power as one of five Fox directors than as Speaker of the House.

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    KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Ardol wrote: »
    They released a damning transcript...what the whistleblower knew is irrelevant. They could have made the whole thing up but Trump has since publicly admitted to the worst of the crimes.

    They can disbelieve the person who said they untied the bag, but the cat is still gone. Or something. Maybe a barn door metaphor?

    Wait, they released a transcript? Or are you referring to the memo which is definitely not a transcript?

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I think it's also of note that this Ukraine phone call is listed as the issue that Democrats are "united around".
    In terms of how we proceed on the ultimate question of impeachment, this is not only the strongest case, but it is the one Democrats are united around. -- Rep. Daniel Kildee (D-Mich.)
    The Democratic party is large, and contains a lot more demographics than are represented on this forum. To me, Trump's emolument clause violations are sufficient cause in and of themselves for impeachment, but an impeachment vote based on those could have Democratic Representatives voting against it, not just Republicans, and that would be bad, politically-speaking, even if it passes the House. Now we have something that's so obviously bad that Pelosi can pass impeachment in the House as a united front. I think this issue can get us every single Democratic Representative voting to impeach, along with a few Republican Representatives, and that's before the investigation really gets under way. If unrelated issues are added, I think we lose that unity, and we need it if we want this to succeed.

    With regards to the timetable, Congress has a two week recess coming up. During this time, the investigation will continue, while the rest of the Democratic party has the job of selling impeachment to the American public. I think by the end of this recess, we'll know how this is going to turn out.

    Yeah, given that the Ukrainian Call was what got enough Democrats to switch sides on impeachment to finally get the ball rolling, I really wonder if they have the numbers to expand impeachment beyond the scope of that issue much. They may in part, for the moment anyway, be playing to the one issue they know they have the votes for.

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    Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Not a doctor Tree townRegistered User regular
    Ah, Rudy.

    "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

    As far as that text exonerating him, I'm not sure it does that. If Trump did want Rudy and Barr to network with a foreign country, the State Department is probably who they'd use to set things up.

    Especially since we know these fools can't set up a proper back-channel.

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    DacDac Registered User regular
    Referring back to previous impeachments to try and read the tea leaves probably isn't going to help. There is no standard. This could fizzle out and go nowhere, or a bombshell could drop tomorrow that's so shocking that the once-thought impermeable dam breaks. The situation has been so fluid that every morning is a completely different landscape.

    I can make one prediction, however: if voters think house democrats are needlessly stringing this out for nakedly political reasons, or god forbid, if they had sat on impeachment of this clearly illegal act in order to time it closer to the election? I can't think of any better way to reduce D turnout. Impeaching is the right call. Even if the senate vote doesn't go anywhere, when shit is this bad, you have to try. If you just throw up your hands when the president is actively organizing foreign intervention in our elections and say 'hey not enough votes in the senate, we're not going to bother,' you might as well hand Trump the scepter and crown he so desperately desires right now, because no one is going to follow you.

    It's an uncertain future. Yes, the impeachment of Clinton didn't go anywhere. But Nixon was also super safe until he wasn't. Gonna be a bit before we have a clearer picture of which this is.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    mcp wrote: »


    Rudy is posting his text messages i guess

    I'm not a lawyer and don't know what he's doing but it seems like this is a bad idea

    Heh, first comment posted:
    Dude, this text message of July 19 says you will talk to Mr. Yermak on July 22.

    The complaint says you met with Mr. Yermak on August 2... which, you know, is AFTER July 22.

    How does this text message's timestamp help you exactly?

    Which is completely true btw. Giuliani just basically confirmed that part of the complaint.

    Like, this this dude knows how time works, right?

    Senator Chris Murphy with another take,


    CT Senator Murphy: This isn’t real, is it? Giuliani didn’t just voluntarily expose a highly illegal coordination between the Trump campaign and the State Department?

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    People keeping saying it's pointless to bring up the emoluments or Mueller report, but I disagree. They help establish a pattern; the Mueller report shows Trump was open to the idea of colluding and that he's 100% okay with ordering people to obstruct justice for him; the emoluments shows he's willing to use the office of the president

    Alone maybe they can't get the public to care (I don't necassarrily agree; emolument stories kept vanishing from the headlines right after they happened, and we all know what the media did when presented with Barr's take on the Mueller report) but when combined with this current story, I think they have more bite.

    Trump did this bad thing! (And also these other bad things you may or may not have heard of: collect them all!)

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    No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    *claps hands*

    Oh this is fantastic

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    So lots of people were listening in because it was just supposed to be a “grats for the election” call and then all those aides started freaking out when Trump instead rambled on how he should investigate the Bidens as a “favor” to the US.

    They didnt put any limit on who could listen in.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/26/us/politics/trump-ukraine-timeline.html
    WASHINGTON — No one bothered to put special limits on the number of people allowed to sit in the White House “listening room” to monitor the phone call because it was expected to be routine. By the time the call was over 30 minutes later, it quickly became clear that it was anything but.

    Soon after President Trump put the phone down that summer day, the red flags began to go up. Rather than just one head of state offering another pro forma congratulations for recent elections, the call turned into a bid by Mr. Trump to press a Ukrainian leader in need of additional American aid to “do us a favor” and investigate Democrats.

    The alarm among officials who heard the exchange led to an extraordinary effort to keep too many more people from learning about it. In the days to come, according to a whistle-blower complaint released on Thursday, White House officials embarked on a campaign to “lock down” the record of the call, removing it from the usual electronic file and hiding it away in a separate system normally used for classified information.

    Viskod on
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    Kristmas KthulhuKristmas Kthulhu Currently Kultist Kthulhu Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    Referring back to previous impeachments to try and read the tea leaves probably isn't going to help. There is no standard. This could fizzle out and go nowhere, or a bombshell could drop tomorrow that's so shocking that the once-thought impermeable dam breaks. The situation has been so fluid that every morning is a completely different landscape.

    I can make one prediction, however: if voters think house democrats are needlessly stringing this out for nakedly political reasons, or god forbid, if they had sat on impeachment of this clearly illegal act in order to time it closer to the election? I can't think of any better way to reduce D turnout. Impeaching is the right call. Even if the senate vote doesn't go anywhere, when shit is this bad, you have to try. If you just throw up your hands when the president is actively organizing foreign intervention in our elections and say 'hey not enough votes in the senate, we're not going to bother,' you might as well hand Trump the scepter and crown he so desperately desires right now, because no one is going to follow you.

    It's an uncertain future. Yes, the impeachment of Clinton didn't go anywhere. But Nixon was also super safe until he wasn't. Gonna be a bit before we have a clearer picture of which this is.

    There's an investigation before articles are drafted or a vote takes place. This can take as long as necessary, and if they continuously uncover crimes and have administration officials testifying about them, they can take as long as they want.

    There's literally no reason to fast track this, the Democrats have all the power they could possibly ask for and are looking like they're trying their damnedest to squander it. It's basically confirming my worst fears.

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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Archangle wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Thinking this is a ploy by Republicans requires believing in a massive conspiracy theory given how improbable them remaining tight lipped would be. Fox is not reacting to it like some kind of trick.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/09/madness-at-fox-news-as-trump-faces-impeachment-lachlan-murdoch
    Trump’s final bulwark is liable to be his first one: Fox News. Fox controls the flow of information—what facts are, whether allegations are to be believed—to huge swaths of his base. And Republican senators, who will ultimately decide whether the president remains in office, are in turn exquisitely sensitive to the opinions of Trump’s base. But even before the whistle-blower’s revelations, Fox was having something of a Trump identity crisis, and that bulwark has been wavering. In recent weeks, Trump has bashed Fox News on Twitter, taking particular issue lately with its polling, which, like other reputable polls, has shown the president under significant water. Meanwhile, Trump’s biggest booster seems to be having doubts of his own. This morning, Sean Hannity told friends the whistle-blower’s allegations are “really bad,” a person briefed on Hannity’s conversations told me. (Hannity did not respond to a request for comment). And according to four sources, Fox Corp CEO Lachlan Murdoch is already thinking about how to position the network for a post-Trump future. A person close to Lachlan told me that Fox News has been the highest rated cable network for seventeen years, and “the success has never depended on any one administration.” (A Fox Corp spokesperson declined to comment.)
    The ultimate referee of this fight will be Lachlan Murdoch. In recent months, Rupert’s oldest son has been holding strategy conversations with Fox executives and anchors about how Fox News should prepare for life after Trump. Among the powerful voices advising Lachlan that Fox should decisively break with the president is former House speaker Paul Ryan, who joined the Fox board in March. “Paul is embarrassed about Trump and now he has the power to do something about it,” an executive who’s spoken with Ryan told me. (Ryan did not return a call seeking comment.) But a person more sympathetic to Trump has told Lachlan that Fox should remain loyal to Trump’s supporters, even if the network has to break from the man. “We need to represent our viewers,” the source said. “Fox is about defending our viewers from the people who hate them. That’s where our power comes from. It’s not about Trump.”
    Paul Ryan, Speaker of the House from October 2015 to January 2019, continues to be a sad sack of garbage incapable of standing up to Trump.
    It's an incredible indictment of the political landscape that Ryan feels he has more power as one of five Fox directors than as Speaker of the House.

    A while ago, after his novels began being framed in more-or-less modern settings, someone asked William Gibson why he stopped writing cyberpunk. He replied that he still does, it's just that there's no need to speculate about neo-corporate dystopia futures anymore.

    uH3IcEi.png
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    ArchangleArchangle Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Ardol wrote: »
    They released a damning transcript...what the whistleblower knew is irrelevant. They could have made the whole thing up but Trump has since publicly admitted to the worst of the crimes.

    They can disbelieve the person who said they untied the bag, but the cat is still gone. Or something. Maybe a barn door metaphor?

    Wait, they released a transcript? Or are you referring to the memo which is definitely not a transcript?
    Yes - for clarity, the whistle-blower asserts they were informed that a word-for-word transcript was created at the time of the phone call.

    The whistle-blower further asserts that following intervention from White House lawyers, this transcript and other contemporaneous records were moved to a codeword security server normally reserved for national security-sensitive records (as opposed to politically-sensitive records as appears to be the case here).

    The word-for-word transcript was replaced on non-national security servers by a summary readout for distribution to cabinet members.

    As far as I'm aware, it's not currently clear that the memo publicly released is the same summary that cabinet members received, or whether it is further redacted (in the same way that Barr summarised Mueller's report, which is itself a summary of detailed transcripts). What IS clear is that it's not the transcript, the treatment of which kicked off the complaint.

    Please clarify if posts if you are referring to to publicly available memo, or the non-publicly available word for word transcript. There may or may not be an intermediate readout that was made available to cabinet members, but the content of that version is largely irrelevant.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Okay, I take it back. I expect the Washington Post have it right and the Democrats really are expecting to push impeachment to the Senate before the end of October.

    They obviously expect Giuliani will have the entire case for impeachment undeniably proven by then.

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    No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    edited September 2019
    WHAT IS HAPPENING

    Rudy's on Fox like RIGHT NOW and is totally anchoring State to this as well.



    Aaron Rupar is a reporter for Vox and watches things like Fox so we don't have to.
    Wow. Rudy Giuliani is on Ingraham's show implicating the State Department in the Ukraine scandal.

    "The whistleblower falsely alleges that I was operating on my own. Well, I wasn't operating on my own."

    No-Quarter on
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    No-Quarter wrote: »
    WHAT IS HAPPENING

    Rudy's on Fox like RIGHT NOW and is totally anchoring State to this as well.



    Aaron Rupar is a reporter for Vox and watches things like Fox so we don't have to.
    Wow. Rudy Giuliani is on Ingraham's show implicating the State Department in the Ukraine scandal.

    "The whistleblower falsely alleges that I was operating on my own. Well, I wasn't operating on my own."

    OH MY GOD I WAS JUST KIDDING!!!

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    It's worth remembering that these people are morons and if you put literally any pressure on them at all they'll give away all kinds of shit.

    Which is why you press them forcefully everywhere.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    Twenty SidedTwenty Sided Registered User regular
    It'll only get better if he attempts to delete those messages.

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    ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    The thing about letting Rudy Giuliani represent you is that you have Rudy Giuliani representing you.

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    madparrotmadparrot Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    I don't trust anything that man posts.

    That said... are 5G phones in the wild?

    That's AT&T's infamous fake 5G, 5Ge, which they were sued over and lost, but continue to use because lol.

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    TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    I just love the idea that to Rudy "Other people were involved" means "I'm totally innocent!"

    Like... why is "Acting on his own" the only thing he cares about here? You were still coordinating with a foreign government to influence a domestic election, ya' damn goose.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    I just love the idea that to Rudy "Other people were involved" means "I'm totally innocent!"

    Like... why is "Acting on his own" the only thing he cares about here? You were still coordinating with a foreign government to influence a domestic election, ya' damn goose.

    "I was just following orders"

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    TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    So he just went on air and ranted about how he was secretly working with a guy who was given this newly made post by Rex Tillerson in the State Department to benefit Trump's reelection campaign and showed the evidence on his phone which will probably result in it getting subpoenaed.

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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Ladies, Gentlemen, good people, a moment of silence if you will for the true victims who are suffering at this time.

    The management and senior media figures at Fox News.


    Gabriel is a Vanity Fair special correspondent

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Honestly, has any of these idiots faux pas actually come back to bite them in the ass? I recall people saying Rudy's "We were trying to find a way to make it legal (to ban muslims)" was going to kill the muslim ban.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Giuliani is reading texts off the air specifically from Kurt Volker, Trump's State envoy to Ukraine about discussing Giuliani's meeting with Ukraine's Andrei Yermak.



    Aaron Rupar still live tweeting this is just happening live:
    Here's Rudy Giuliani reading personal text messages live on air in an effort to prove just how deeply involved in this Ukraine mess the State Department is

    I'm gobsmacked, stunned.

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    qwer12qwer12 PhilippinesRegistered User regular
    Giuliani is an idiot

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    ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    Was the complaint even trying to say that Rudy was doing all this on his own? The only thing I've heard like that is the anonymous admin dude trying to throw him under the bus.

This discussion has been closed.