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[Joker] Clown Prince of Cringe

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Talk about it here. Because you’re already talking about it in every other thread.

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  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    I haven’t seen it yet. Probably have to wait til digital because life is not conducive to theater going for me right now.

    Is it good? Y/N?

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    It’s great.

    It feels like falling down or taxi driver.

    It doesn’t feel like a comic book movie at all.

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  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    Copied from the DC thread:

    Joker is good! It's a tasty Scorsese stew with hearty chunks of Kubrick and a dash of Hitchcock.

    That first dancing scene in the bathroom is so dang good and hypnotic and eerie.

    I also loved that the movie turns
    Thomas Wayne into a villain: he’s someone who calls poor people clowns and maybe/probably used an employee for sex, then tossed her and her son away when she got pregnant. It's such a refreshing change from the way that other Batman films portray Bruce and his father as benevolent, philosopher-king billionaires.
    It's funny how the movie has gotten such heat from the left on Twitter when, ultimately, it probably has the most left-wing outlook of any Batman movie. In addition to the stuff above there's the fact that Fleck is pushed farther down his spiral when he loses his social worker because of government budget cuts.

    Though, while I liked that one scene with the social worker, I didn't really like that the movie portrays the Joker as explicitly mentally ill, with psychiatric medication that he's taking and stuff. That's the one thing that really bothered me about the movie, and yet it's something I'm not seeing much discussion about. I think it's long past time for movies to stop portraying mentally ill people as psychopathic mass murderers.

    Still, overall, the movie is a good squirm-in-your-seat-with-discomfort nightmare of a time.

    Maybe, uh, I shouldn't have brought my mom with me to the showing tho



    I’ll add: 1.
    Martha and Thomas biting it at a showing of Zorro: The Gay Blade was perfect

    2. It is so dang nice to see a comic book movie where it didn’t feel the filmmakers were under pressure to add an action scene every few minutes. There is some action but it never feels shoe-horned in. It’s also nice to see one where nobody has a perfectly-sculpted six pack body.

    Anyway I’m still processing the movie, maybe I’ll hate it tomorrow, but as of right now I’m very happy it’s doing so well at the box office

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  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    I do have this to say for the film; it made me extremely uncomfortable the entire way through.

    The turning point of the film is
    the murders on the subway/train; one could argue the first couple shots were self defense, but he then finishes off the second guy and chases down and brutally murders the third. Then we get the dancing scene in the bathroom after the panic and shock of what just happened wears off Arthur. Up to this point, Arthur is very subdued, quiet, and holding back. The only time we see him being himself is when he's doing the clown act, and then after the murders.

    the preachy, "society is to blame" speech on the talk show was very unlike Joker to me.

    Just my initial thoughts/observations of the film.

    I didn't like it, but I can't imagine that anyone would watch this and walk out with the view that Joker was a sympathetic character and justified in his actions (the "this will inspire incels complaint".)

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Yeah I enjoyed it. Obviously the conversation surrounding the movie has become its own "thing." The movie pretty much stands on its own.

    A good point someone mentioned was that movies like Deadpool are much more violent, and yet because this isn't a comedy the violence is being treated as super violent and gross. So while Deadpool can dismember, decapitate, and mutilate, Joker gets a sideways look for a body count of... 6. Maybe 7? Like I legitimately think people forgot this is the same character who beat a Robin to death with a crowbar, for literal shits and giggles.

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  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    I watched The Matrix quasi-recently (still great) and I think it glorifies violence approximately 1000% more than Joker. That's a movie where the camera lovingly lingers on guns firing in slow-motion, where the ultra-cool protagonists wearing ultra-cool outfits stylishly shoot up a room full of security guards with unquestioned righteousness. Compare it to this movie, where the violence is supposed to be disturbing, and the main character is such a loser that
    he has a pretend girlfriend.

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  • DiplominatorDiplominator Hardcore Porg Registered User regular
    Kruite wrote: »
    I do have this to say for the film; it made me extremely uncomfortable the entire way through.

    The turning point of the film is
    the murders on the subway/train; one could argue the first couple shots were self defense, but he then finishes off the second guy and chases down and brutally murders the third. Then we get the dancing scene in the bathroom after the panic and shock of what just happened wears off Arthur. Up to this point, Arthur is very subdued, quiet, and holding back. The only time we see him being himself is when he's doing the clown act, and then after the murders.

    the preachy, "society is to blame" speech on the talk show was very unlike Joker to me.

    Just my initial thoughts/observations of the film.

    I didn't like it, but I can't imagine that anyone would watch this and walk out with the view that Joker was a sympathetic character and justified in his actions (the "this will inspire incels complaint".)

    Train
    I would have to see it again to be sure, but I am 90% certain that he fired more than six times. I was trying to count shots and I'm pretty sure that hateful triple-tap at the end put him over the top.

    Any other movie I'd say he reloaded off-screen but Arthur is such an unreliable narrator that I'm not sure it's that simple. We don't really know where the lies are and where they stop. Or if they stop.

    If you think of the movie as a story the Joker is telling, especially a story he tells much later on, it makes more sense. It's "how I got these scars" all over again. Ever-shifting, horrifying, and usually casting the Joker as the victim.

    Ultimately I think that is why I raise an eyebrow at the idea that this was a non-franchise movie with the Joker spotted in for marketing's sake. I don't think it would work nearly as well without knowing that the narrator (well, there's no narration, so maybe curator) is the goddamn Joker.

    Everything the movie shows us is suspect. Was Arthur really mistreated and neglected by society? Was he really Thomas Wayne's child? Did he really spark the riots that got the Waynes killed?

    I don't think this is a self-contained story about the rise of the Joker. I think this is the Joker's idea of what would justify his actions, but we don't know if any of it is even true, and I don't think that dynamic works without the audience knowing something about who the Joker is.

    It's a little like Spider-verse in that regard. It's an origin story, but you kind of have to already know the story to get the most out of it.

    zepherinwanderingShadowhope
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    The incel thing was wildly overblown, at least as far as the final film is concerned (I don't know about the leaked script). I was half-expecting by the way people were going on that he was going to be talking about chads or whatever.

    He was having fantasies about having a supporting girlfriend at difficult times, but it felt like it was the least important part of his breakdown. His mistreatment and the mockery directed towards him by a man he had earlier fantasized as a supporting father figure were much more impactful.

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  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    Some other ideas
    I walked out wondering if Arthur Fleck was really the Joker. No, I don't mean that the character we see isn't the Joker. I was wondering if Joker co-opted the name of the adopted child for this narrative. In his supposed telling of his story, he has introduced himself to the clown club as Arthur. I don't recall the case worker ever addressing him as such (can anyone else verify?)

    The movie would have us believe that after Ms Fleck was hospitalized that the state took baby young boy arthur away. Would they really release him back to his mother after she got out? The newspaper clippings & case file don't really state what happened to arthur after Ms Fleck was institutionalized. I left wondering if Arthur Joker was lying about his identity after the fact.

    This idea is a real stretch though, one that the movie doesn't hint at. I suspect that it won't hold water unless I can get some freeze frames of the newspaper and the case file notes.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    Kruite wrote: »
    Some other ideas
    I walked out wondering if Arthur Fleck was really the Joker. No, I don't mean that the character we see isn't the Joker. I was wondering if Joker co-opted the name of the adopted child for this narrative. In his supposed telling of his story, he has introduced himself to the clown club as Arthur. I don't recall the case worker ever addressing him as such (can anyone else verify?)

    The movie would have us believe that after Ms Fleck was hospitalized that the state took baby young boy arthur away. Would they really release him back to his mother after she got out? The newspaper clippings & case file don't really state what happened to arthur after Ms Fleck was institutionalized. I left wondering if Arthur Joker was lying about his identity after the fact.

    This idea is a real stretch though, one that the movie doesn't hint at. I suspect that it won't hold water unless I can get some freeze frames of the newspaper and the case file notes.
    That's really interesting.
    I think that a lot of the point of the movie, is that the unreliability and psychosis makes everything suspect. And his name and origin are unreliable in the comics. So is it Arthur? Could he have taken Arthur's place? Are they going to do a disturbing sequel to add more questions?

    zepherin on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    There's definitely not gonna be a sequel from the looks of it

    And yeah the movie is starting to remind more and more of American Pyscho, where if you get into it you're not sure how much really happened or not.

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  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    Joker's identity is supposed to be the one mystery that Batman has never been able to solve. He's the world's greatest detective, and he's never cracked the case of who the Joker is.

    This new film does a great job of telling a possible story, but it also has so much unreliability and vague allusions that a viewer who is familiar with the Batman mythos can appreciate the fact that coming out of this movie, no questions are really answered. It makes Batman's inability to solve this mystery very sympathetic. Batman can't figure out who the Joker is, because the Joker himself isn't sure who he is.


    If you contrast "Joker" to "The Killing Joke", Alan Moore also did a really great job of telling a story about a possible Joker origin, but he also never actually says the story he's telling is Joker's origin. He's just telling a story of a down on his luck comedian and that story is running parallel to a story about Joker. But there's no concrete link between the two parallel stories.

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  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    I really enjoyed this. This is basically as good as we could have expected for a Joker movie that doesn't have Batman in it.

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  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    There's definitely not gonna be a sequel from the looks of it

    And yeah the movie is starting to remind more and more of American Pyscho, where if you get into it you're not sure how much really happened or not.

    I think they did a good job of telegraphing very clearly the things that were imagined (the first show appearance, the relationship) and the things that actually happened (everything else)

    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Oddly, although I’m not all that compelled to see Joker, if they gradually began a run of Rogue’s Gallery movies-Riddler, Two-Face, Penguin-somehow that would make the idea of seeing Joker that much more interesting to me-using the villains as windows into Gotham itself, making the city a more fully realized location rather than the New York with Chicago running through it mishmash that’s been the city’s identity so far.

    Like, I doubt DC would commit to 5 movies pursuing the same idea without getting distracted by some other shiny object, but if they took that approach, it would immediately elevate the value of a Joker movie in my eyes.

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    Spoilers for this one, but yeah this is my favorite scene. Cool to hear the back story to it.

    Originally meant to put these here, kinda got confused

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 7
    I watched this movie and was prepared for something incredibly right wing, and found that... to be bullshit? The movie had a lot of (albiet muddled) left wing messaging

    Sure portraying the mentally ill as dangerous as a trend is a big fucking problem, given the character we're talking about I'm not sure if there's another way to do it though.
    I also don't think Arthur's mental illness can be blamed for his violence. Arthur is perfectly competent about what killing someone means, he murdered with full knowledge of what he was doing.

    I think part of the issue is that Arthur is misdiagnosed, his mother clearly told therapists from when he was younger about his "Condition", but probably not telling them that he was a normal boy until he suffered a traumatic brain injury from her abusing boyfriend. He probably wasn't on the right meds, and he lives in a society that doesn't care so much that his deranged mother was able to get him back after having him taken away, without her underlying condition having been treated

    I very much liked this movie

    As to the 7 bullets fired out of his gun, I don't believe it was a 6 shooter, I believe it was something like this
    4asPhWZ.png

    override367 on
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  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    The movie has some clear parallels with Killing Joke. Joker starting out as a failed standup...

    9cw0dr7m5avv.jpg

    The unreliable narrator aspect....

    CXzf5vW.jpg?1

    It's part of why I don't really buy the notion that this is a "Joker movie in name only", in spite of the director's comments to the contrary
    Spoilers for this one, but yeah this is my favorite scene. Cool to hear the back story to it.
    Yesss I love hearing about great scenes that were quasi-unplanned

    That scene specifically was what I was thinking of when I brought up Kubrick: the way it shoves the plot aside and instead just lets you wallow in a sinister dreamlike haze

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I want a public apology from everyone who engaged in histrionics and shouted their fully-formed opinions about this movie before it even came out.

    I don't even think the movie is all that good but the amount of self-righteous winge-mongering over this film has been asinine and the people who perpetuated it need a healthy dose of self-reflection and also might want to consider shutting the fuck up for a good minute.

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  • FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    edited October 8
    I wouldnt go as far as an apology, but at least a half assed OP would be nice.

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Nobody apologizes about stuff like this, but you can bring it up next time people get super clickbaited about something

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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    No one apologizes because no one was actually outraged or hysterical to begin with.

    It's all just cynical click-bait bullshit. Op-eds get clicks, studios get sales, and people who just like to be outraged get something to be outraged about. Everyone wins.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    RT800 wrote: »
    No one apologizes because no one was actually outraged or hysterical to begin with.

    It's all just cynical click-bait bullshit. Op-eds get clicks, studios get sales, and people who just like to be outraged get something to be outraged about. Everyone wins.

    I'm guessing this is exactly why it opened so well. *puts on tinfoil hat* The studio WANTED this kind of message to get pushed because it gets people into the theaters. I have no interest in seeing the movie but seeing all these news networks and random Twitter folk get upset by the message of the movie (EVEN BEFORE THE MOVIE WAS OUT) almost got me to buy a ticket to spite them.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

    Nothing wrong with enjoying it, just like there's nothing wrong with feeling that we really, really don't need another violent white dude inspiring other white dudes to do awful things at this point in time. (Again: not outraged! Just icked out.)

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Regardless, it is blatantly obvious that you should not have a strong opinion about something without having seen or addressed it yourself. Anyone who thought it was a good idea to engage in not just speculation, but rampant bias, before the movie even came out, is well deserving of any scorn that gets thrown their way. I'm so fucking tired of this internet bullshit and we need to be better at pointing out whose opinions should be ignored because they have proven to put about as much thought and deliberation into them as a small child.

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  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

    Nothing wrong with enjoying it, just like there's nothing wrong with feeling that we really, really don't need another violent white dude inspiring other white dudes to do awful things at this point in time. (Again: not outraged! Just icked out.)

    You mean a movie of such? Because we don't need movies at all, if that's how you want to frame things.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

    Nothing wrong with enjoying it, just like there's nothing wrong with feeling that we really, really don't need another violent white dude inspiring other white dudes to do awful things at this point in time. (Again: not outraged! Just icked out.)

    You mean a movie of such? Because we don't need movies at all, if that's how you want to frame things.

    ...so much for reasoned criticism.

    No, I'm not trying to have the movie jettisoned into the sun, don't be silly. I'm just saying it was poorly timed and would have been better received if it came out a few years ago.

    cloudeagle on
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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    We've also been over how media is not responsible for the actions of deranged individuals. The messaging may make you uncomfortable but it's got nothing to do with real world solutions to thing like gun violence and white supremacists.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

    Nothing wrong with enjoying it, just like there's nothing wrong with feeling that we really, really don't need another violent white dude inspiring other white dudes to do awful things at this point in time. (Again: not outraged! Just icked out.)

    You mean a movie of such? Because we don't need movies at all, if that's how you want to frame things.

    We definitely don't need takes this hot, that's for sure.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    We've also been over how media is not responsible for the actions of deranged individuals. The messaging may make you uncomfortable but it's got nothing to do with real world solutions to thing like gun violence and white supremacists.

    ....I didn't say that?

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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    What is the gist of the controversy, for someone who apparently missed out? White guy killing people painted sympathetically? Anti-rich protests depicted as crazy mob? Just guesses on my part after having watched it.

    Regardless, I liked the movie a lot. Joaquin Phoenix was awesome. I think it's the first time I've enjoyed a comic-based movie since The Dark Knight .

    Edit - I do agree with the "mentally ill = deranged murderer" criticism voiced in this thread though

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    We've also been over how media is not responsible for the actions of deranged individuals. The messaging may make you uncomfortable but it's got nothing to do with real world solutions to thing like gun violence and white supremacists.

    ....I didn't say that?

    I didn't say you were, just that to those hand-wringing over people being "inspired" by this movie to do violent acts, that is misplaced intentions at best

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    What is the gist of the controversy, for someone who apparently missed out? White guy killing people painted sympathetically? Anti-rich protests depicted as crazy mob? Just guesses on my part after having watched it.

    Regardless, I liked the movie a lot. Joaquin Phoenix was awesome. I think it's the first time I've enjoyed a comic-based movie since The Dark Knight .

    The biggest thing I saw was referencing how way too many disaffected white dudes saw Fight Club and took away a message/moral that was "Last Question In Billy Madison" levels wrong, basically glorifying Tyler Durden and not seeing how flawed and fucked up and Bad™ he was. This movie felt similar and people were worried how a similar movie might impact a much different (in very bad ways) generation of similarly disaffected white dudes.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Personally I doubt the movie will do much inspiring itself, but it will probably be adopted as a banner by dipshits a la Scarface and Fight Club. It'll serve as a red flag when their dates go into their college dorm room and see the poster on the wall.

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  • JeedanJeedan Registered User regular
    edited October 8
    The joker smoked a lot in this movie, but never midnight toked. 1 star.

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Also, any mild criticism of how the movie presented itself, no matter what, was interpreted as "OMG STOP BEING OUTRAGED."

    Eh there's been plenty of levelheaded criticism, here and elsewhere

    But notably lots of critics seemed to pile on the moral angle when the average movie fans seemed to enjoy it a lot, going by rotten tomatoes score

    Nothing wrong with enjoying it, just like there's nothing wrong with feeling that we really, really don't need another violent white dude inspiring other white dudes to do awful things at this point in time. (Again: not outraged! Just icked out.)

    Yea thats not what the movie is.

    You want to point that gun at something, John Wick is probably your better bet.

  • NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    .
    Kaputa wrote: »
    What is the gist of the controversy, for someone who apparently missed out? White guy killing people painted sympathetically? Anti-rich protests depicted as crazy mob? Just guesses on my part after having watched it.

    Regardless, I liked the movie a lot. Joaquin Phoenix was awesome. I think it's the first time I've enjoyed a comic-based movie since The Dark Knight .

    Edit - I do agree with the "mentally ill = deranged murderer" criticism voiced in this thread though

    Just a parade of clownish hot takes all basically boiling down to "This was an irresponsible movie to make, it will inspire real life violence". The demographic it was purported to inspire to violence, and the reasons anyone thought it would, were hardly unanimous. But the media, through weasel words and the usual headline telephone, seemed absolutely certain that someone would be shooting up a theatre in response to this film.

    I think most notably Phoenix walked out of an interview where he was asked about the film promoting violence.

    The only thing I can't make up my mind about was whether Disney was behind such a blatantly astroturfed media campaign to try to hurt a competitor, or WB was behind it because controversy moves tickets.

  • JeedanJeedan Registered User regular
    edited October 9
    The thing I found interesting about this movie is that while Taxi Driver As a Comic Book Movie isn't as good as Taxi Driver, as a comic book movie its still pretty unique.

    I mean origin stories are done to death, but there aren't really any supervillian ones or many ones at all where the villain is portrayed as anything other than a confident genius.

    As evidenced by the amount of horrible fanart about him The Joker in popular culture is supposed to be "cool", and at some points when the makeup is on and the cameras are on him and he's in full flow talking weird nonsense he almost reaches it- but its kind of a performance on Arthurs part. His laughter is a medical thing, but hey if you're an outside observer you could see it as a full on evil cackle. Arthurs just kind of bumbling his way into supervillainy, even if to the eyes of the crowd he becomes elevated to kind of mythical figure.

    Jeedan on
    Kristmas Kthulhu
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