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[The Expanse] let's just stay here for a moment

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    SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited January 20
    The ship designs as shown are basically physically impossible. Even with extreme efficiency, for the thrust output described you'd instantly melt the ship if the fusion reaction were occuring wholly within the ship as shown, radiators or not.

    https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-drive.html?m=1

    This is the best math and physics deep dive I've seen into how a "real" fusion powered ship with near Epstein Drive-level performance and without giant radiator fins could work. Engineering practicalities aside.

    The general point being that it doesn't look much like the Expanse ships. You need to launch and ignite the fuel pellets several hundred meters behind the actual ship to reduce the area the x-ray radiation and neutrons can hit to reduce the heat absorbed to just a fraction of a percent of the total output to even survive. And you'd still need a heat shield that would cover the entire rear of the ship which would be glowing white hot while absorbing over 2 gigawatts of heat. You couldn't run the drive within many, many kilometers of another ship or station without destroying the other ship or at least killing the crew. Any interruption of the magnetic field would cause a heat spike that would instantly vaporize the heat shield and the rest of the ship. You'd also run out of fuel even at minimal thrust in about 40 days, not the show's claimed "fuel supplies for 30 years". And if you ran a ship the size of the Roci at 12 g's, you burn through its entire 48 tons of fusion fuel in just 106 minutes.

    SiliconStew on
    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Is that blog’s thing about ejecting the pellets 300 meters to the rear their own thing? For some reason I thought in the show version they were igniting pellets within the Roci

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
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    Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    Heatsinks were mentioned at least once, regarding the Amun-Ra Stealth Ships from the first book / season. One of the main things that made them stealthy was that they did not vent anything. They could only run in stealth mode for so long before cooking the crew.

    Oh brilliant
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    ThawmusThawmus +Jackface Registered User regular
    I guess I'm hoping that at some level everyone's agreed that some handwaving has to happen, otherwise we're tasking sci-fi writers with actually inventing the future.

    I'm much happier with where the authors thought humanity could end up politically, in terms of realism. Humanity never tired of making Others out if itself.

    Twitch: Thawmus83
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Is that blog’s thing about ejecting the pellets 300 meters to the rear their own thing? For some reason I thought in the show version they were igniting pellets within the Roci

    They do, the blog is doing it behind the ship instead to reduce heat buildup.

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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    Oh, sorry, I was mostly setting up an argument for creating liquid H2 on a spaceship, at any sort of scale, was a slightly nightmarish concept, because one way or the other you're doing the hot side of an AC unit into the ship to compress/cool it to a liquid, with the second worst material possible.

    Like, all of the entropy in there has to go somewhere, and that is the rest of your ship until it is radiated away by the outward facing surface area of your ship.

    then noticed nobody was actually suggesting it.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    I always find a good stopping point in the books whenever I get to one of "the dreamer" chapters

    And then when I finally decide to read the dreamer chapters, I mostly just skim it because it's repetitive word salad and it kinda sucks?

    I'm glad it was only in 2 or 3 of the books, but I wish it was in less

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    President RexPresident Rex Registered User regular
    That was also my process for the occasional character dreams in earlier books as well. I don't think I've ever encountered a compelling dream description in a book. And the Expanse is not on the good end of that spectrum to me.

    Maybe it is the fact that the basic premise of imagining the story is akin to dreaming and imagining someone's imaginary dream feels inutile. Or it's the tendency for book dreams to be premonitions and purple prose instead of somewhat universal manifestations of stressors and everyday activities.


    But I also wonder if that's just an author trope thing that I just can't connect with. I have memorable dreams every few days; I basically never have nightmares regardless of stress or daily activities (maybe it's a superpower; I don't know). I have a couple friends who basically only have uncomfortable dreams bordering on nightmares that get progressively worse in high-stress situations. And I feel like a lot of authors seem to write from a basis of bad dreams emanating from bad situations.

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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    I had some Quorn today. Delicious, delicious, mushroom nuggets.

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    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I always find a good stopping point in the books whenever I get to one of "the dreamer" chapters

    And then when I finally decide to read the dreamer chapters, I mostly just skim it because it's repetitive word salad and it kinda sucks?

    I'm glad it was only in 2 or 3 of the books, but I wish it was in less

    I sort of agree but how else are you supposed to write from the perspective of a light-bound hive mind species?!

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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    MonwynMonwyn Apathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime. A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I always find a good stopping point in the books whenever I get to one of "the dreamer" chapters

    And then when I finally decide to read the dreamer chapters, I mostly just skim it because it's repetitive word salad and it kinda sucks?

    I'm glad it was only in 2 or 3 of the books, but I wish it was in less

    This is madness, the "it reaches out" scenes were some of the best bits of Cibola Burn

    Not fantastic in Leviathan's End though

    uH3IcEi.png
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited February 6
    The only problem with the Leviathans End dreamer bits is that its then immediately explained by characters.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Holden just dropped a "Miller, we need to talk" and I'm kinda not ready for the books to end yet

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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Well,

    fuck

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The ship designs as shown are basically physically impossible. Even with extreme efficiency, for the thrust output described you'd instantly melt the ship if the fusion reaction were occuring wholly within the ship as shown, radiators or not.

    https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-drive.html?m=1

    This is the best math and physics deep dive I've seen into how a "real" fusion powered ship with near Epstein Drive-level performance and without giant radiator fins could work. Engineering practicalities aside.

    The general point being that it doesn't look much like the Expanse ships. You need to launch and ignite the fuel pellets several hundred meters behind the actual ship to reduce the area the x-ray radiation and neutrons can hit to reduce the heat absorbed to just a fraction of a percent of the total output to even survive. And you'd still need a heat shield that would cover the entire rear of the ship which would be glowing white hot while absorbing over 2 gigawatts of heat. You couldn't run the drive within many, many kilometers of another ship or station without destroying the other ship or at least killing the crew. Any interruption of the magnetic field would cause a heat spike that would instantly vaporize the heat shield and the rest of the ship. You'd also run out of fuel even at minimal thrust in about 40 days, not the show's claimed "fuel supplies for 30 years". And if you ran a ship the size of the Roci at 12 g's, you burn through its entire 48 tons of fusion fuel in just 106 minutes.

    Discovery One from 2001 and Venture Star from Avatar are what a non-technobabble based 'fast' spaceship would look like. A drive section full of angry stuff and covered with radiators with a lot of empty space between it and the payload section up front. Or in back in the case of the Venture Star, preventing buckling is heavy.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    God, when Avatar started and I saw that starship I was so happy. Thank you to whatever technology consultant was working with the artists.

    That and when the super special ore was explained as being a room temperature supderconductor (yep, that'll definitely be worth the effort of interstellar mining operations) were my favorite moments of what's otherwise a fairly typical Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves/Last of the Mohicans/Last Samurai -in Space kinda thing. lol

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    SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    God, when Avatar started and I saw that starship I was so happy. Thank you to whatever technology consultant was working with the artists.

    That and when the super special ore was explained as being a room temperature supderconductor (yep, that'll definitely be worth the effort of interstellar mining operations) were my favorite moments of what's otherwise a fairly typical Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves/Last of the Mohicans/Last Samurai -in Space kinda thing. lol

    I did like their ship design in 1. Remember when they apparently fired that consultant and had the interstellar ships with their massive radioactive torch drives enter atmosphere in Avatar 2? The atmospheric shockwaves from those engines would have torn the ships apart. The exhaust temperatures should have turned the landing zone to lava making it impossible to set the pods down. And the whole region would be a radioactive hellscape for who knows how many years afterwards making it a really stupid place to build their base. Not that they'd get that far because the reflected and reemitted radiation from running the engines in atmosphere would have cooked the crew before they made landfall.

    SiliconStew on
    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    I had such mixed feelings about unobtanium because on the one hand, did you seriously have people in universe decide to name the fancy substance that enables all their sci-fi gizmos after the jokey placeholder name used to describe a substance with impossible properties that enable sci-fi gizmos?
    And on the other hand, we live in a reality where physicists named the subatomic particle that holds stuff together gluons and the Sonic Hedgehog gene is a thing.

    steam_sig.png
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    mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I had such mixed feelings about unobtanium because on the one hand, did you seriously have people in universe decide to name the fancy substance that enables all their sci-fi gizmos after the jokey placeholder name used to describe a substance with impossible properties that enable sci-fi gizmos?
    And on the other hand, we live in a reality where physicists named the subatomic particle that holds stuff together gluons and the Sonic Hedgehog gene is a thing.

    The name is the only believable property of the substance. There's someone, somewhere, working on material discovery who's main concern is getting that name through lawyers, peer review, and whatever organization keep track of names.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    On the plus side, the ship's name was Manifest Destiny, because subtext is for losers.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    I haven't seen the second movie but we also heard this name from the guys out in the field mining it, not a professor reading from a textbook. For all we know it's got a super serious proper name and this is just the industry jargon.

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    x-rays, dark matter, dark energy, the entire naming system for quarks..yep.

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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    I haven't seen the second movie but we also heard this name from the guys out in the field mining it, not a professor reading from a textbook. For all we know it's got a super serious proper name and this is just the industry jargon.

    The 2nd avatar movie is fucking hilarious, but they never mention unobtainium and instead are killing whales to steal their brains

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    Zilla360Zilla360 21st Century. |She/Her| Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    x-rays, dark matter, dark energy, the entire naming system for quarks..yep.
    I am a huge dork, so yup.

    Although dark energy/matter has already been named & described/modelled by me (modified LQGP/VEC), other physicists disagree with my conclusions in peer review as their jobs would be threatened by the solution.

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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    NO. Just no. NO. No.

    Nothing will ever be called unobtainium.

    "But it's a real term" has been used an incredible amount and completely fails to understand that in that context it has a specific meaning that vanishes once you actually have a substance in hand.

    If a guy named Myers Julian discovers a room temperature super conductor, it's going to be called "Julinium". Or if he's feeling particularly patriotic and is Danish then it might get called "Danium".

    I want all writers, everywhere to do the tiniest fucking bit of actual world building and realize that it isn't clever or interesting to call something "unobtainium".

    And while they're at it, scrub "ISDN" from your vocabulary about computers.

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    LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited February 25
    Tired: Calling your fictional material Unobtainium, missing the point of the term’s usag, and making it so you have to make up a new term to replace Unobtainium’s original use case
    Wired: Calling your fictional material Obtainedium, because now you obtained a heretofore theoretical exotic material with fantastic properties

    Lanz on
    waNkm4k.jpg?1
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    GilgaronGilgaron Registered User regular
    Or if the element is named using social media voting it'll be mcelementfacium.

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    GrudgeGrudge blessed is the mind too small for doubtRegistered User regular
    edited February 25
    That's Element McElementface to you, sir, thank you very much.

    Grudge on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Tired: Calling your fictional material Unobtainium, missing the point of the term’s usag, and making it so you have to make up a new term to replace Unobtainium’s original use case
    Wired: Calling your fictional material Obtainedium, because now you obtained a heretofore theoretical exotic material with fantastic properties

    Then in the sequel set a few years in the future, it's now called Commonium.

    sig.gif
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    NO. Just no. NO. No.

    Nothing will ever be called unobtainium.

    "But it's a real term" has been used an incredible amount and completely fails to understand that in that context it has a specific meaning that vanishes once you actually have a substance in hand.

    If a guy named Myers Julian discovers a room temperature super conductor, it's going to be called "Julinium". Or if he's feeling particularly patriotic and is Danish then it might get called "Danium".

    I want all writers, everywhere to do the tiniest fucking bit of actual world building and realize that it isn't clever or interesting to call something "unobtainium".

    And while they're at it, scrub "ISDN" from your vocabulary about computers.

    Myers Julian would call it "unobtainium" in the hope that the rest of the academic world would switch to calling it "Julinium", but presumably he's enough of a dick that they're going to keep using his original term rather than replacing the intentional awful name with the latinised "Julian's element".

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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    unobtainium is a "real" (tongue-in-cheek) term used in the real world to refer to things like materials with exceptional properties we haven't yet discovered, so i am totally sure were we to actually discover such a material that's what it would be called because physicists are dorks

    NO. Just no. NO. No.

    Nothing will ever be called unobtainium.

    "But it's a real term" has been used an incredible amount and completely fails to understand that in that context it has a specific meaning that vanishes once you actually have a substance in hand.

    If a guy named Myers Julian discovers a room temperature super conductor, it's going to be called "Julinium". Or if he's feeling particularly patriotic and is Danish then it might get called "Danium".

    I want all writers, everywhere to do the tiniest fucking bit of actual world building and realize that it isn't clever or interesting to call something "unobtainium".

    And while they're at it, scrub "ISDN" from your vocabulary about computers.

    Myers Julian would call it "unobtainium" in the hope that the rest of the academic world would switch to calling it "Julinium", but presumably he's enough of a dick that they're going to keep using his original term rather than replacing the intentional awful name with the latinised "Julian's element".

    not to mention the long history of physicists adopting the name meant to be a joke about the thing

    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    So, it's been kind of a whirlwind, but I started the books early September last year, and finished the short stories in early January, so 10 novels in ~4 months?

    Then my fiancee and I started watching the show in mid January, and finished it off last week, so that was quite a ride.

    I decided to get my own copy, and while I love the paperbacks my buddy has, I've chosen to force myself to slow down a little by getting the collector's editions. Well, the first one at least, though I'll get the second and third shortly.

    Has anyone seen any hints as to when further CE's will release?

    At least according to Google, it seems Leviathan Wakes was Sept 2021, with Caliban's War and Abaddon's Gate in Dec 2023, so I'm not expecting more anytime soon, more of an idle curiosity.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    Slightly awkward absence of Alex.

    Good job being a creep, Anvar. You got bumped by the nameless CGI monster who was only in like 4 episodes.

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    amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Yeah I mean on one hand you'd have to pay the actor license rights and this is a stance, on the other hand,

    I'm being told there is no other hand.

    I agree though, you coulda been an Action Figure! Anvar.

    Goddamn Space Texan

    are YOU on the beer list?
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    So, some thoughts on contrasting the two mediums.

    A few things that stood out for me as we chewed through it all;

    - for obvious reasons, the show's solar system feels smaller. The books aren't really shy about communications being hours or days apart, and while it's not all 'live' in the show, there were definitely some sections that allegedly had a 20 minute delay or something where it felt like in the books it wasn't nearly that swift a turnaround for a lot of it.

    But I did marathon a lot of novels and then a lot of shows, so maybe it's more of a feeling than a fact.

    - Similarly, while as noted pages ago, transit wasn't quite 'let's teleport over Westeros' levels of blatant, it did feel like crossing some large chunks of space really worked at the speed of plot. Which, again, I'm fine with. Especially for seasons this short, I'm not saying we needed to lose even a filler ep or two just to show them all gritting their teeth for an hour under medium/high G. The mag boots were a fine budget saver versus having everyone 'on the float' constantly, but while The Juice is called upon a few times, there weren't a lot of situations in the show (compared to the books where it feels pretty regular) that they seemed to spend extended times at mid/high G travel.

    - Martian power armour, at least early on, feels way more like body armour than I envisioned. I think Bobbie's gets closer to it (at least in performance), but describing it as barely able to squeeze through some areas as they do in one of the books, I'd had something a bit larger envisioned.

    - Similarly, I liked Frankie Adams, and I respect that even in the world of female body builders there aren't going to be many with the raw stature that Gunny Draper is described as having, sheer mountain of a woman that she is, but it was just something I had to do some reconciling all the same.

    - Wes was similarly not quite what I expected, but really grew on me.

    - As noted, ffs Anvar.

    - Holden was properly insufferable at times. Strait was good, and also like 'this guy is basically the default MaleShep from Mass Effect, in terms of being generically handsome short brown(ish) haired guy.

    - Dominique was great, though the books make a point of Naomi having mid/long'ish hair and hiding behind it constantly. I can adapt to change, I swear. Okay maybe I can't.

    It was a blast reading through the entire thread. I'm tempted to go hit a prior one for something fun to read.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    President RexPresident Rex Registered User regular
    Naomi (and belters in general) is supposed to be very tall. But I think the show's casting works well. They grabbed some unique-looking people. And also made Cara Gee into such a force that Drummer became a core part of the books (partially also because the writers were refining the book plot through the show).

    I also appreciate how often the show does try to imply their are comm delays and slow transit, but it doesn't dwell on it. Like Miller spent a decent chunk of time getting to Eros but they don't have a montage of his cruise talking to Mormons and being bored in a berth.

    The only weirdness there is so much of the combat being ridiculously close. But that's after they try to make it look visually spread apart. It's just hard to make space as big as space is (and still interesting for most viewers, apparently).

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    There is also that, but as is noted in the thread a few times, finding a ton of talented actors who also fit what they're looking for while being 6'6"+ is probably a bit of a tall ask, so I understood that was just how it was going to be.

    Cara Gee is a real standout performance for sure. I liked how they merged some storylines to make that happen, and that she got such a prominent role in the series. She's not Michio Pa, but next time I re-read the books, I imagine that'll be the baseline I'm working from all the same.

    The combat is also a fair point, but that's probably based on what viewers expect. Same way that Star Wars fights in 'space' are basically WW2 era dogfights (and I'm aware this is intentional), even though they can theoretically be happening at massive distances. Though I enjoyed one SW Extended Universe series that actually gave a good reason for ship to ship battles practically being knife fighting distance (the antagonist was intentionally setting them up that way).

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    obolon84obolon84 Good news, everyone! I just blue myself.Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    So, it's been kind of a whirlwind, but I started the books early September last year, and finished the short stories in early January, so 10 novels in ~4 months?

    Then my fiancee and I started watching the show in mid January, and finished it off last week, so that was quite a ride.

    I decided to get my own copy, and while I love the paperbacks my buddy has, I've chosen to force myself to slow down a little by getting the collector's editions. Well, the first one at least, though I'll get the second and third shortly.

    Has anyone seen any hints as to when further CE's will release?

    At least according to Google, it seems Leviathan Wakes was Sept 2021, with Caliban's War and Abaddon's Gate in Dec 2023, so I'm not expecting more anytime soon, more of an idle curiosity.

    I think the plan for the future releases is to have them come out on the 10th anniversary of each book.

    bJnuewi.jpg
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