Could someone please (try to) explain the defense’s position that subpoenas prior to Halloween were somehow not authorized? I am failing to pick this up. And I heard “absolute immunity” WELL before Halloween so what is this nonsense?
It’s sovereign citizen bullshit. Basically arguing that because the impeachment investigation wasn’t voted on by the house floor until halloween anything from any investigation before then is invalid and fruit of the poisoned tree.
So by extension every investigation done by the house into any executive branch governmental matter between 1998 and 2019 was an invalid illegal procedure.
+9
Options
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Are we gonna get the Chewbacca defense? We're gonna get the Chewbacca defense, aren't we?
We're getting a fucking Choose Your Own Adventure defense.
If you think Trump would never have asked for a quid pro quo, because how stupid would he have to be, turn to page 46.
If you think Trump did every last thing the prosecution alleges, but it doesn't matter because nothing is impeachable, turn to page 85.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Could someone please (try to) explain the defense’s position that subpoenas prior to Halloween were somehow not authorized? I am failing to pick this up. And I heard “absolute immunity” WELL before Halloween so what is this nonsense?
It’s sovereign citizen bullshit. Basically arguing that because the impeachment investigation wasn’t voted on by the house floor until halloween anything from any investigation before then is invalid and fruit of the poisoned tree.
So by extension every investigation done by the house into any executive branch governmental matter between 1998 and 2019 was an invalid illegal procedure.
Pretty much every fruit of the poison tree argument that involves it being used to protect powerful rich white people is guaranteed to not actually be fruit of the poison tree.
The argument was that the subpoenas were invalid before an official vote so instructing people to ignore the subpoenas was procedural resistance, rather than Obstruction of Congress (Article 2).
Whether or not it provides cover is debatable, but it had some coherence (unlike other arguments).
0
Options
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
The argument was that the subpoenas were invalid before an official vote so instructing people to ignore the subpoenas was procedural resistance, rather than Obstruction of Congress (Article 2).
Whether or not it provides cover is debatable, but it had some coherence (unlike other arguments).
except that it's nonsense and there's no requirement to vote on impeachment before subpoenas can be issued
Oh totally. But unlike "these crimes aren't serious crimes" or "the President's interest is the national interest" it isn't total bonkers so sounds vaguely plausible compared to the other screeching of wraiths.
The argument was that the subpoenas were invalid before an official vote so instructing people to ignore the subpoenas was procedural resistance, rather than Obstruction of Congress (Article 2).
Whether or not it provides cover is debatable, but it had some coherence (unlike other arguments).
except that it's nonsense and there's no requirement to vote on impeachment before subpoenas can be issued
Also, investigations continued after Halloween and were subsequently obstructed.
Oh totally. But unlike "these crimes aren't serious crimes" or "the President's interest is the national interest" it isn't total bonkers so sounds vaguely plausible compared to the other screeching of wraiths.
The issue with the presidents interest is the national interest basically allows the president to nuke parts of the country that wouldn't vote for him. Like that's a pretty broad shield not granted in the constitution
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Oh totally. But unlike "these crimes aren't serious crimes" or "the President's interest is the national interest" it isn't total bonkers so sounds vaguely plausible compared to the other screeching of wraiths.
The issue with the presidents interest is the national interest basically allows the president to nuke parts of the country that wouldn't vote for him. Like that's a pretty broad shield not granted in the constitution
there's nothing in the constitution that says the president can't use nuclear weapons whenever he wants
Oh totally. But unlike "these crimes aren't serious crimes" or "the President's interest is the national interest" it isn't total bonkers so sounds vaguely plausible compared to the other screeching of wraiths.
The issue with the presidents interest is the national interest basically allows the president to nuke parts of the country that wouldn't vote for him. Like that's a pretty broad shield not granted in the constitution
there's nothing in the constitution that says the president can't use nuclear weapons whenever he wants
Right of course I forgot
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
A president's re-election campaign "being in the national interest" means that the individual and the state are inseparable. It's good for the president, ergo it's good for the state. It justifies any and all actions taken. Welcome to authoritarianism.
This is similar to Trump's discovery of "in the interest of national security" being magical words to bypass congress to apply tariffs and trade restrictions.
Similar to the unlawful delay in withholding congressional approved Ukraine funds without notifying congress, turns out theres a legal obligation for the Executive to justify their use of "national security" restrictions on trade - which they are, of course, violating. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/opinion/trump-auto-tariff.html
Trump keeps looking to expand his power as President, and its unsurprising that a bunch of those actions focus on his personal power rather than that of the office itself.
Just another example of obstructing congress to add to the pile.
Didn't the WH get a manuscript of the book to review to make sure it didn't contain any classified information?
Yes. They've likely recieved copies of all the books written about the goings on in there
And probably never read any of them.
Alternate option: they did read it, saw that there was damaging info about Trump in it, but didn't say anything to him because it had to stay secret during the trial and they knew he wouldn't be able to keep his damn mouth shut about it. The plan was to secretly armtwist Bolton into softening his language (ha ha i know) or at least delay notifying Trump until after the trial was over, but then whoever leaked the damaging info to NYT blew that plan right up.
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
edited January 2020
Oh man, that Dershowitz quote..
Every public official, Dershowitz said, “believes that his election is in the public interest. If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Dershowitz said it shouldn’t be impeachable for a president to think, “I’m a great president; I think I’m the greatest president there ever was; if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly,” and act accordingly.
That's literally Caesar's justification for declaring war on the state and becoming dictator for life. At least Republicans back then weren't into dictatorship, like that's the opposite of a Republic. But America literally becoming an imperial dictatorship isn't too surprising, just shocking to see it actually try to take place. Although if it's like Roman history, we'd be stuck with Don Jr. as emperor for the next 60 years https://youtu.be/5PeN1k9AAMg
Every public official, Dershowitz said, “believes that his election is in the public interest. If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Dershowitz said it shouldn’t be impeachable for a president to think, “I’m a great president; I think I’m the greatest president there ever was; if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly,” and act accordingly.
That's literally Caesar's justification for declaring war on the state and becoming dictator for life. At least Republicans back then weren't into dictatorship, like that's the opposite of a Republic. But America literally becoming an imperial dictatorship isn't too surprising, just shocking to see it actually try to take place. Although if it's like Roman history, we'd be stuck with Don Jr. as emperor for the next 60 years https://youtu.be/5PeN1k9AAMg
I've thought the parallels between America and the fall of the Roman Republic have been way too on the nose for awhile now.
Trump's impeachment is gonna be roughly the same spot in the descent as Clodius becoming a Tribune. The moment that everyone stopped pretending laws or traditions mattered as anything but the thinnest veneer over the machinations of power.
+12
Options
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I don’t really do social media, so I never know what’s trending unless someone posts it here on PA. I just follow a few different news feeds on various topics like foreign policy, economics, US politics, etc, but I have never been bombarded so hard with such a plethora of single focused news items in one day before.
Damn near all of my feed is either talking about Bolton, or Dershowitz’s comments on Trump essentially being a dictator.
I hope the McConnell goes fucking nuts trying to control the fallout from this week.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Every public official, Dershowitz said, “believes that his election is in the public interest. If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Dershowitz said it shouldn’t be impeachable for a president to think, “I’m a great president; I think I’m the greatest president there ever was; if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly,” and act accordingly.
That's literally Caesar's justification for declaring war on the state and becoming dictator for life. At least Republicans back then weren't into dictatorship, like that's the opposite of a Republic. But America literally becoming an imperial dictatorship isn't too surprising, just shocking to see it actually try to take place. Although if it's like Roman history, we'd be stuck with Don Jr. as emperor for the next 60 years https://youtu.be/5PeN1k9AAMg
I've thought the parallels between America and the fall of the Roman Republic have been way too on the nose for awhile now.
Trump's impeachment is gonna be roughly the same spot in the descent as Clodius becoming a Tribune. The moment that everyone stopped pretending laws or traditions mattered as anything but the thinnest veneer over the machinations of power.
Romans could, with enough money, raise their own military. And not in the sense of Blackwater. In the sense of, "I purchased the 82nd Airborne."
We are not ancient Rome. We're early-mid 20th century Europe. Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the paths we tread.
That's the kind of defense team you get when you've driven away or fired everyone even remotely competent around you, and all that's left are opportunists with no shame.
In a sane world, it wouldn't work. Sadly, it still might.
There's no plan, there's no race to be run
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
That's the kind of defense team you get when you've driven away or fired everyone even remotely competent around you, and all that's left are opportunists with no shame.
In a sane world, it wouldn't work. Sadly, it still might.
The incompetent defense team working isn't the problem.
The problem is that the jury is rigged.
+53
Options
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
Every public official, Dershowitz said, “believes that his election is in the public interest. If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Dershowitz said it shouldn’t be impeachable for a president to think, “I’m a great president; I think I’m the greatest president there ever was; if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly,” and act accordingly.
That's literally Caesar's justification for declaring war on the state and becoming dictator for life. At least Republicans back then weren't into dictatorship, like that's the opposite of a Republic. But America literally becoming an imperial dictatorship isn't too surprising, just shocking to see it actually try to take place. Although if it's like Roman history, we'd be stuck with Don Jr. as emperor for the next 60 years https://youtu.be/5PeN1k9AAMg
I've thought the parallels between America and the fall of the Roman Republic have been way too on the nose for awhile now.
Trump's impeachment is gonna be roughly the same spot in the descent as Clodius becoming a Tribune. The moment that everyone stopped pretending laws or traditions mattered as anything but the thinnest veneer over the machinations of power.
Romans could, with enough money, raise their own military. And not in the sense of Blackwater. In the sense of, "I purchased the 82nd Airborne."
We are not ancient Rome. We're early-mid 20th century Europe. Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the paths we tread.
It wasn't that they could raise their own military, it was that they could bribe and coerce their way into important political offices which would give them command of whole armies, like Crassus with the governorship of Syria. I still think it's wrong that candidates can spend millions on Facebook ads trying to influence elections, and Super PACs doing the same with massive amounts of money. Auctioning off the imperial throne came later. Hopefully we won't reach that stage, but the role of money in politics is definitely heavy handed currently which is scary. It should be the best most qualified people that get elected regardless of their bank account or that of their friends
Seeing fascist rhetoric being trotted out in this trial is very surreal though
There was a question last night that was basically “Since Adam Schiff coordinated with the whistle blower and broke multiple laws isn’t this whole impeachment void?”
Every public official, Dershowitz said, “believes that his election is in the public interest. If a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Dershowitz said it shouldn’t be impeachable for a president to think, “I’m a great president; I think I’m the greatest president there ever was; if I’m not elected, the national interest will suffer greatly,” and act accordingly.
That's literally Caesar's justification for declaring war on the state and becoming dictator for life. At least Republicans back then weren't into dictatorship, like that's the opposite of a Republic. But America literally becoming an imperial dictatorship isn't too surprising, just shocking to see it actually try to take place. Although if it's like Roman history, we'd be stuck with Don Jr. as emperor for the next 60 years https://youtu.be/5PeN1k9AAMg
I've thought the parallels between America and the fall of the Roman Republic have been way too on the nose for awhile now.
Trump's impeachment is gonna be roughly the same spot in the descent as Clodius becoming a Tribune. The moment that everyone stopped pretending laws or traditions mattered as anything but the thinnest veneer over the machinations of power.
Romans could, with enough money, raise their own military. And not in the sense of Blackwater. In the sense of, "I purchased the 82nd Airborne."
We are not ancient Rome. We're early-mid 20th century Europe. Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the paths we tread.
It wasn't that they could raise their own military, it was that they could bribe and coerce their way into important political offices which would give them command of whole armies, like Crassus with the governorship of Syria. I still think it's wrong that candidates can spend millions on Facebook ads trying to influence elections, and Super PACs doing the same with massive amounts of money. Auctioning off the imperial throne came later. Hopefully we won't reach that stage, but the role of money in politics is definitely heavy handed currently which is scary. It should be the best most qualified people that get elected regardless of their bank account or that of their friends
Seeing fascist rhetoric being trotted out in this trial is very surreal though
I think Trump taking money and/or favors for partial military control is already happening, .e.g anything to do with Saudi Arabia or the Syria retreat or what the whole damn trial is about.
Lilnoobs on
+5
Options
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
There was a question last night that was basically “Since Adam Schiff coordinated with the whistle blower and broke multiple laws isn’t this whole impeachment void?”
I just had to stop watching.
They should pull examples from this trial and use them as examples in a textbook somewhere.
If this untrue thing is true, doesn't that mean this other untrue thing is true?
But let's even pretend that it's true. So you're saying the person who revealed the crimes broke the law/protocol/procedure. So that means the crimes don't count, even though they happened?
That's the kind of defense team you get when you've driven away or fired everyone even remotely competent around you, and all that's left are opportunists with no shame.
In a sane world, it wouldn't work. Sadly, it still might.
Eh. I'd really say this is about the complete lack of control of the client. If Trump had hired, lets say Dershowitz, over the summer and followed his advice we would be nowhere near where we are now. Half of these guys know enough to protect a wealthy powerful client that would listen to them. Trump is doing his best to talk himself into an impeachment. With the jury being over half GOP and their current lack of ethics it probably won't work but damn if Trump isn't trying just as hard as he can.
Their performance is for Trump and Trump alone. The jury is rigged they know that. Keeping their client happy and telling him how awesome he is is their only goal.
Wrote both my Senators to ask them to join Romney and vote for witnesses... shouting into the wind, feels like, but NC is a battleground and somebody needs to tell these guys that moderates exist.
There was a question last night that was basically “Since Adam Schiff coordinated with the whistle blower and broke multiple laws isn’t this whole impeachment void?”
I just had to stop watching.
They should pull examples from this trial and use them as examples in a textbook somewhere.
If this untrue thing is true, doesn't that mean this other untrue thing is true?
But let's even pretend that it's true. So you're saying the person who revealed the crimes broke the law/protocol/procedure. So that means the crimes don't count, even though they happened?
Evidence collected improperly is inadmissible in Court and that is a good thing (this is not a court nor a criminal/ civil trial) but, okay, take those four pages off of the pile of papers on the House Manager's table and oh look still a mountain of evidence.
But let's even pretend that it's true. So you're saying the person who revealed the crimes broke the law/protocol/procedure. So that means the crimes don't count, even though they happened?
Oh no, they're explicitly arguing they never happened (or aren't crimes), and it's all a conspiracy by those evil tricksey Democrats, who are the real criminals.
And anecdotally, it works. All my relatives who were on the "Hillary is a crook" train have lapped it right up and think Trump is a warrior against corruption being attacked by the machine of entrenched liberal corruption. To these people, that liberals are criminals and the real bad guys is practically religion. They don't need any facts, just an authority figure shouting at them that Democrats are bad for "reasons", which becomes their new truth.
Posts
Jesus fucking Christ they're not even trying to hide it anymore.
It’s sovereign citizen bullshit. Basically arguing that because the impeachment investigation wasn’t voted on by the house floor until halloween anything from any investigation before then is invalid and fruit of the poisoned tree.
So by extension every investigation done by the house into any executive branch governmental matter between 1998 and 2019 was an invalid illegal procedure.
We're getting a fucking Choose Your Own Adventure defense.
If you think Trump would never have asked for a quid pro quo, because how stupid would he have to be, turn to page 46.
If you think Trump did every last thing the prosecution alleges, but it doesn't matter because nothing is impeachable, turn to page 85.
Eventually they all lead to page 274: “People see through your bullshit, turn to page 1.”
Pretty much every fruit of the poison tree argument that involves it being used to protect powerful rich white people is guaranteed to not actually be fruit of the poison tree.
Whether or not it provides cover is debatable, but it had some coherence (unlike other arguments).
except that it's nonsense and there's no requirement to vote on impeachment before subpoenas can be issued
Also, investigations continued after Halloween and were subsequently obstructed.
The issue with the presidents interest is the national interest basically allows the president to nuke parts of the country that wouldn't vote for him. Like that's a pretty broad shield not granted in the constitution
pleasepaypreacher.net
there's nothing in the constitution that says the president can't use nuclear weapons whenever he wants
Right of course I forgot
pleasepaypreacher.net
I tried that once. Results were mixed.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Vox reporter:
What the actual fuck
Is this a Tim and Eric sketch?
Like, did she write “April” on one page and “2019” two pages over?
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Similar to the unlawful delay in withholding congressional approved Ukraine funds without notifying congress, turns out theres a legal obligation for the Executive to justify their use of "national security" restrictions on trade - which they are, of course, violating.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/opinion/trump-auto-tariff.html
It's especially egregious given Trump's alleged threat of trade sanctions against the EU of they didn't warn Iran for nuclear deal violations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/days-before-europeans-warned-iran-of-nuclear-deal-violations-trump-secretly-threatened-to-impose-25percent-tariff-on-european-autos-if-they-didnt/2020/01/15/0a3ea8ce-37a9-11ea-a01d-b7cc8ec1a85d_story.html
Trump keeps looking to expand his power as President, and its unsurprising that a bunch of those actions focus on his personal power rather than that of the office itself.
Just another example of obstructing congress to add to the pile.
Alternate option: they did read it, saw that there was damaging info about Trump in it, but didn't say anything to him because it had to stay secret during the trial and they knew he wouldn't be able to keep his damn mouth shut about it. The plan was to secretly armtwist Bolton into softening his language (ha ha i know) or at least delay notifying Trump until after the trial was over, but then whoever leaked the damaging info to NYT blew that plan right up.
Trump overbribed this person. She probably would have bungled the investigation into Trump University on her own.
I've thought the parallels between America and the fall of the Roman Republic have been way too on the nose for awhile now.
Trump's impeachment is gonna be roughly the same spot in the descent as Clodius becoming a Tribune. The moment that everyone stopped pretending laws or traditions mattered as anything but the thinnest veneer over the machinations of power.
Never pay someone for a job they'd do for free.
this is a silly question
there's nothing written on those pages
Oh my god, I figured it out. She's as blind as Trump and refuses to wear glasses.
There's literally only like 2 numbers per page.
"APR" /flips page "IL" /flips page "20" /flips page "19"
They saw the tweets making fun of how their table is practically spotless and the Houses’ table is covered with stacks of evidence.
So she tried to make it look like they had stuff.
Damn near all of my feed is either talking about Bolton, or Dershowitz’s comments on Trump essentially being a dictator.
I hope the McConnell goes fucking nuts trying to control the fallout from this week.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Romans could, with enough money, raise their own military. And not in the sense of Blackwater. In the sense of, "I purchased the 82nd Airborne."
We are not ancient Rome. We're early-mid 20th century Europe. Spain, Italy, Germany. These are the paths we tread.
In a sane world, it wouldn't work. Sadly, it still might.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
The incompetent defense team working isn't the problem.
The problem is that the jury is rigged.
It wasn't that they could raise their own military, it was that they could bribe and coerce their way into important political offices which would give them command of whole armies, like Crassus with the governorship of Syria. I still think it's wrong that candidates can spend millions on Facebook ads trying to influence elections, and Super PACs doing the same with massive amounts of money. Auctioning off the imperial throne came later. Hopefully we won't reach that stage, but the role of money in politics is definitely heavy handed currently which is scary. It should be the best most qualified people that get elected regardless of their bank account or that of their friends
Seeing fascist rhetoric being trotted out in this trial is very surreal though
I just had to stop watching.
I think Trump taking money and/or favors for partial military control is already happening, .e.g anything to do with Saudi Arabia or the Syria retreat or what the whole damn trial is about.
They should pull examples from this trial and use them as examples in a textbook somewhere.
If this untrue thing is true, doesn't that mean this other untrue thing is true?
But let's even pretend that it's true. So you're saying the person who revealed the crimes broke the law/protocol/procedure. So that means the crimes don't count, even though they happened?
Eh. I'd really say this is about the complete lack of control of the client. If Trump had hired, lets say Dershowitz, over the summer and followed his advice we would be nowhere near where we are now. Half of these guys know enough to protect a wealthy powerful client that would listen to them. Trump is doing his best to talk himself into an impeachment. With the jury being over half GOP and their current lack of ethics it probably won't work but damn if Trump isn't trying just as hard as he can.
Evidence collected improperly is inadmissible in Court and that is a good thing (this is not a court nor a criminal/ civil trial) but, okay, take those four pages off of the pile of papers on the House Manager's table and oh look still a mountain of evidence.
And anecdotally, it works. All my relatives who were on the "Hillary is a crook" train have lapped it right up and think Trump is a warrior against corruption being attacked by the machine of entrenched liberal corruption. To these people, that liberals are criminals and the real bad guys is practically religion. They don't need any facts, just an authority figure shouting at them that Democrats are bad for "reasons", which becomes their new truth.