Escaping the USA?

DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
edited April 20 in Help / Advice Forum
Hi everyone,

I've been around the boards for years, lurking in various threads and I know some of ya'll from various games and whatnot, so I know you're a bunch of kind and helpful people.

My wife (T) and I are at a crossroads, and we could use some advice.

T and I were both born and raised in the Central Valley of California - her father is a Dutch immigrant, her mother was a member of the US Air force (the met in The Netherlands, both of them were in marching band). My parents are from San Jose, and moved to the Valley when they had my brother and I because the cost of living was far cheaper. While the area was decent when we were kids, the Valley has become a fairly unfriendly place. We have a huge drug and gang problem, homelessness is a massive issue in our area, we have large amounts of white supremacy and racism, and due to real estate investment we can't afford to go anywhere else in California. Honestly, we don't want to - the societal issues that have become highly apparent in the US have been bothering us for years now, and the government's (failed) response to COVID-19 was really the last nail in the coffin - we want out.

We took a trip to The Netherlands last year to see her family, and also spent time in Belgium (Bruges & Brussels) and Luxembourg. We very much enjoyed our time in Europe, and started to consider moving. We did reach out to the Dutch Embassy to check if T still had dual citizenship, but unfortunately her EU passport had expired after 10 years (it had been renewed for her 18th birthday, but she'd forgotten about it); the real irony is that we were only a few months too late - her birthday is in the fall, and we reached out to the Dutch government early this year. If we had been smart enough to think about this before our trip last year, it would have been a breeze to renew her passport and EU citizenship.

Our parents aren't rich, and neither are we; I'd say we're comfortably middle class, but only because we don't have (or want, at this point anyway) any children. We do have a quite comfortable "rainy day" fund, which will continue to grow if we don't change anything major in our standard of living. We own our home, which we purchased back in 2016. Current market estimates say that we would have approximately $70,000 in equity at this point, though I'd have to double check that as we did refinance recently to drop the PMI from our mortgage. I do have approximately $6000 in student loans at the moment, but we're aiming to have those paid off by summer - we've already paid off around $10,000 this school year. We have no other outstanding debts.

We have three cats, who are the only family we'd be taking with us. Taking our cats is non-negotiable; my wife and I view pet ownership as adoption, and we have a duty to our kitties to take care of them and give them long, full, lovely lives.

So, the question is: Where in the world should we move?

The Netherlands is our #1 choice - the culture, government, public transportation, cost of living, and the fact that T has family there are all points in it's favor. We visited Amsterdam, Utrecht, Delft, and some other smaller towns that I can't remember the names of. We really loved Delft, but Amsterdam and Utrecht were very interesting cities, and much nicer than the large cities we're used to (Sacramento, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and so on). Plus, living in Europe would be dope as hell, and would make traveling very easy (we love to travel). The problem is I'm not exactly sure if I'd be able to get a job there as a teacher of English - so far I haven't been able to get a definitive answer from the government (it's not like there's a pandemic happening or anything).

We're absolutely open to suggestions though, and I'd appreciate any input you may have. Also, if you've taken a huge leap like we're considering, how did that go? How did you line up a job in a new country, and move?

Some specific details that may be useful:
  • I'm a fully credentialed Single Subject (English Language Arts) Teacher in California. This school year is my 4th as a teacher; I've worked in education for 6 years though, and love the field.
  • I currently teach at a high school - I prefer working with students who are a bit older.
  • I have a Bachelors degree in Philosophy, with a focus on logic and rhetoric.
  • I am 30 years old (in May, but it's close enough); T will be 29 this year.
  • I don't have any particular connections left at home; my Grandmother was the last family I was really close to, and she died a few years back.
  • My wife has a Bachelors degree in Criminal Justice, with a focus on legal studies
  • She has a background in corrections, but wants out - she's recently finished up studying to be qualified as Veterinary Technician, and she has started applying for various legal clerk positions, but she's open to other ideas as well.
  • We are both fully fluent in English (duh), and we both understand some Spanish due to living in the Valley. I am working on learning Dutch - it's pretty fun, honestly.
  • I'm considered a "hardcore lefty," in the USA. T is slightly more conservative than I in a few issues (criminal justice, mostly) but is also quite far left for the US.
  • We would like to live somewhere that is more aligned with our ideals: strong social programs, universal healthcare, a movement toward green energy, strong public transportation systems, and a lack of corporate welfare are some issues that are important to us.
  • We're tired of the heat - somewhere a bit cooler would be nice. The average temperature during the summer is 114 F (45 C), which is goddamn absurd. Also maybe rain? We've lived in drought pretty much our entire lives.
  • We are willing to literally sell everything and move to start a new life.
  • I really like lists, apparently.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and for any help or advice you might be able to give. Let me know if any other details are needed.

<3

PSN: decatus90
Decatus on
Zilla360RingoArmoroc
«1

Posts

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Each country's immigration, residence, and naturalization laws are different, including within the EU itself. From what little I know based on moving to Australia for work and going to university in the UK, you may have issues getting work permits and resident status depending upon where you choose to go. Because you're coming from the United States, you may be put "to the back of the line" when compared against others based on need, such as refugees. Similarly, you may not meet certain wealth or business ownership criteria to "skip the queue". Your best bet is likely some form of "professional need", where you have skills that are in high demand in your target country. Based on your description of you and your wife's skills, I'm not sure you would fit the bill (generally these are reserved for high tech skills or specialized trades). Typically the people getting those visas are also being sponsored by employers and therefore can prove that they have a job waiting for them, too.

    A lot of this is generalization, though. It really does depend upon where you intend to go and what you have to bring to the table. A lawyer who specializes in such things can also help you navigate this decision and figure out how to make the process as painless as possible. Ultimately you will need one on the other side to get through all the associated paperwork even if you manage to get to your destination without help (and I would caution against doing so since showing up with a tourist visa while intending to stay longer is a HUGE no-no in most circumstances and will actively work against your case).

    I don't want to diminish your desire to move or make you feel as though it's an insurmountable challenge - but I do think you need to go in with your eyes open. The types of countries that you have expressed a desire to move to are seeing a massive surge in interest in U.S. emigration ever since the results of the 2016 election, and I don't think recent events have done anything to tamper those desires. At one point, the Canadian immigration site went down due to too much traffic. And perhaps rightly so, most such nations don't think that U.S. citizens are in desperate need of special immigration status but are themselves interested in prioritizing the less fortunate who didn't have the bad luck of living in an unbelievably wealthy democracy full of absolute dumbfuck morons.

    U.S. citizens generally have an easier time moving to countries with (perhaps, arguably) less "progressive" governments/cultures but a significantly lower cost of living. This usually comes with a corresponding increase in the amount of poverty and socioeconomic disparity (e.g., the Philippines).

    Just so this post doesn't end in a Debbie Downer thought - look up Costa Rica. I think you may find it interesting.

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudzepherintynicSmrtnikSkeithchromdom
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud my moons are good moons Registered User regular
    The easiest way to immigrate to a new country is to have a company support you in moving to their country for work. The firm you select should be big enough that they can assist you with visa paperwork and relocation. NL is a great place to live but their immigration is a bit more strict than Germany. Many people move to Germany and then later move to NL once they have established residency in the EU for a period of time. I should tell you: moving overseas is incredibly incredibly hard and it is not something to be thought about lightly. It can take years to recover financially and establish yourself. Wherever you move, you are going to be a square zero. Housing is scarce. Jobs are scarce.

    I would recommend selecting countries where teaching is a high need profession. But again if you don't teach in the native language you'll will be limited to English teaching jobs or working at international / expat schools which actually might be a good avenue to look at.

    Many EU countries require certifications and papers that are required for each profession so you will need those as well. Also neither of you hold a professional degree so you may be on very strict working visas. Are you prepared to drop everything and move back to the US if you lose your job? Do you have the finances to support that?

    There are a lot of hard decisions to think about. It isn't impossible but it's challenging in your situation.

    Zilla360tynicFiendishrabbit
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud my moons are good moons Registered User regular
    Oh I didn't see the cat thing. Applying for housing as an immigrant couple with three cats will put you at the very end of the line for housing. Housing is fiercely competitive. Trust me. I did it with two gays and a dog and it took me over a year to find permanent housing here.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I don’t see why you are considering anywhere apart from the Netherlands. It should be possible for an immigration lawyer to fix the expired passport problem, and it checks the rest of your boxes. Just do it! If you hate it you can always return.

    Just because a passport expires doesn’t mean you are no longer a citizen, unless the Netherlands has some very strange laws.

    KetBraZilla360zepherinMulysaSemproniusMoridin889BloodySlothJansonAldoMidniteBrodyThegreatcowSolvent
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Not all countries treat citizenship the same. America is actually one of the most liberal nations when it comes to naturalization and loss of status ("liberal" depending upon your view of whether or not you want to continue to be subject to American laws).

    Per https://www.dualcitizenship.com/countries/netherlands.html
    From April 1, 2003
    Since April 1, 2003, Dutch citizens with dual citizenship will lose their Dutch citizenship if they hold a foreign citizenship and reside outside the Kingdom of the Netherlands or the European Union for 10 years.

    Dutch citizens who have dual citizenship and reside abroad may keep their Dutch citizenship by having a principal place of residence in the Netherlands or another EU member state for at least a year, or applying for a Dutch passport of proof of Dutch citizenship before April 1, 2013, before the end of the 10 year period. A new 10 year period starts on the day the person is issued with a passport or proof of citizenship.

  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    If I'm completely honest, yeah, the Netherlands is really where we'd love to live. We're just trying to keep options open at this point though because of how horrid things have gotten here in the last few years. Honestly at this point, I really can't see us living in the US for another 10 years no matter what happens. Really, assuming we're able to get out...I don't see us ever coming back. I'd also note that we're trying to be realistic about this; both of us are planners, so we're looking to figure this out now so we can work on the process over at least the next year or so.

    I did look into Costa Rica a bit though, and it seems very interesting. The sources I found did mention that they do seem to need and want natively fluent English teachers, which is great news for my career. I'm not entirely sold on the idea of living somewhere tropical though - I'm really more of a gloomy weather person and I've lived in the heat for 30 years.

    Like Inquisitor said, one of the reasons we're mainly looking at the Netherlands is because my wife can pretty easily regain her citizenship as long as we can actually live there for a year, and that would give me a much easier road to citizenship as well. I'll speak with her about possibly reaching out to an immigration lawyer to look into the issue of her passport expiration, but from what I've been able to find the Dutch government is unlikely to budge due to it being so easy for her to regain citizenship should we move.

    I do know that it would be extremely difficult to move, though, and I do appreciate ya'll trying to make sure we'd be going into this with our eyes open.

    Basically, the first step is my being able to find a job - none of this will get off the ground unless I can land a contract for at least a year. Then, I'd likely move first and find a home to buy - the laws surrounding foreigners buying homes in the Netherlands are really fairly lax and property prices aren't outrageous at all (though maybe that's just because I'm used to CA prices for everything?). I've been doing a lot of looking online, and I've been able to find plenty of places we would be able to afford in the smaller towns that are close enough to Amsterdam, the Hague, or Rotterdam which seem to be the places I might be able to find a job.
    • I'm fully aware that we wouldn't be moving into anything like the home we live in now, but we've talked it over and we're both completely fine with downsizing - honestly we'd be thrilled not to need cars any longer and to be able to commute via bike or public transport, and neither of us really have any desire for a large home, yard, or land, so typical American style homes are somewhat of a waste on us.
    While I'd be working to secure housing, she'd be working on selling our house and other large items here in CA - honestly, even in a "meh" marker our house would likely sell within a few weeks, properties in our area at this price range go VERY quickly. We've looked into several services that could help us move our pets, though we aren't exactly sure how they work or what they'd charge (it's on the list of things to look into). Once our house and large items sold, she'd fly over with her clothes and whatnot. We aren't planning on bringing any large items with us, so we'll have to have enough money to at least somewhat comfortably outfit a new house. If I'm able to land a year contract, she could get a job doing just about anything really for that year, and move into a more professional setting once she regains her citizenship.

    I'm also curious about trying to apply for various graduate level programs at Dutch universities, but my wife isn't sure if we'd be able to afford to move as students - has anyone done something like that, or does it sound completely insane for what we'd need to do?

    PSN: decatus90
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I think we are probably about to enter a "terrible" market for housing, rather than "meh" because people are going to be racking up debts while out of work and end up losing their homes.

    zepherinZilla360JaysonFour
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 21
    Decatus wrote: »
    I'm also curious about trying to apply for various graduate level programs at Dutch universities, but my wife isn't sure if we'd be able to afford to move as students - has anyone done something like that, or does it sound completely insane for what we'd need to do?

    This was actually what I was about to recommend - most EU universities give PhD students a stipend, which is usually enough to live on comfortably outside the more expensive areas. It's not like the US where graduate school often means massive debt.

    Pros:
    - you will need to be accepted by a lab or institute as a grad student, but this is a much lower bar than getting a company to sponsor you for a visa.
    - you will gain additional credentials which will then make you more employable locally once you graduate.

    Cons:
    - there may be language requirements for the program (though most places in NL/DE will teach in English, they sometimes require local language proficiency, depending on the department or university)
    - transferring from a student visa to a work visa may require you to return to the US for a period, but not if your wife has sorted her citizenship by then.

    (sources: I am an Australian citizen who has worked in Germany, the UK, and now the US, mostly in universities. I have several friends who moved from the US to Germany to do graduate degrees and they were comfortable financially even with small children. I also have other friends who used their undergrad credentials to teach English at local language schools - this worked out ok for most of them but could be more of a hassle w.r.t. visas and they were dependent on the school having their shit together, a lot of them only stuck it out for a year or two, or transitioned to teaching at a university instead).

    tynic on
    Zilla360Mortal Sky
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    ...I don't know why I hadn't considered trying for a PhD. I guess because I'm used to the university system here, that squeezes for every penny it can get. Honestly though it does sound like a very interesting option - any rough advice on how or where to start looking into programs?

    PSN: decatus90
    CelestialBadger
  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 21
    Most grant-funded PhD openings are advertised via academic job boards and mailing lists, which will often be discipline-specific. So if you have a particular research interest already in mind, you could hunt around and see what resources there are for your field. PhD portal will also let you hunt for openings via region and discipline (I have no idea how comprehensive it is): https://www.phdportal.com/

    If you already know roughly where you want to go, then a more targeted method is to look at department and research websites of the universities in the region - often there will be easily accessible lists of current vacancies (eg Utrecht https://www.uu.nl/en/organisation/phd-programmes) , though other times you might have to dig a little to look at the pages of individual professors and groups. As a heads up, because people don't always realise - it's perfectly normal to write to the faculty member responsible for a particular PhD opening and ask for more info, what they expect in terms of background, etc.

    tynic on
    Satanic JesusRingo
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    edited April 22
    That's extremely helpful info tynic, thanks.

    Also - looking at some of the postings, is it generally a requirement to have a Masters before applying for a Doctoral position? I guess that makes sense, but for some reason I was under the (mistaken?) impression that you could go from a Bachleors into a PhD.

    I'm also assuming that postings are going to be somewhat rare this time of year, at least if it's anything like working in lower levels of education. Are openings usually posted during one particular time of year, or does it just depend on the university?

    Decatus on
    PSN: decatus90
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud my moons are good moons Registered User regular
    Decatus wrote: »
    That's extremely helpful info tynic, thanks.

    Also - looking at some of the postings, is it generally a requirement to have a Masters before applying for a Doctoral position? I guess that makes sense, but for some reason I was under the (mistaken?) impression that you could go from a Bachleors into a PhD.

    I'm also assuming that postings are going to be somewhat rare this time of year, at least if it's anything like working in lower levels of education. Are openings usually posted during one particular time of year, or does it just depend on the university?
    EU doesn't do Bachelor to PhD typically. Masters programs you will most likely not be paid. But NL has really good universities. In the US you can go Bachelor to PhD and it's fairly common in the sciences but not in the EU.

    Inquisitor77caligynefob
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud my moons are good moons Registered User regular
    Also depending on your visa it may not allow a spouse to work so you need to be really careful which visa you get.

  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    Yeah, you'll typically go from a masters to a phd. And depending on field, it is quite a lot of work to even apply. Your mileage may vary here, of course!

    As for teaching, you'll also probably need a masters/equivalent to teach at a high school level. If you are going for international schools (which may be a good choice) teaching, look into whether you need TEFL certification, or stuff like that.

    It will probably be pretty tricky to find work at high school+ level without a masters in English, though. But again, it will depend on the country, and is worth looking into.

    This post was sponsored by Goop.

    'Get your fucking finger on the wookie'
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    Yeah, looking into it a bit more and it seems like if I want to go the student visa route, I should probably get my master's here. Unfortunately that means at least two more years stuck here - my local university does offer a Masters in Education, focused on Curriculum and Instruction, so that's nice.

    I'm not exactly sure how that would translate into further graduate work though, but it could be interesting to move into the research side of the world of education, instead of working with proto-humans and their parents.

    I'll have to contact them and see about application deadlines - it would be ideal to start this fall if possible.

    PSN: decatus90
  • BlindZenDriverBlindZenDriver Registered User regular
    I don’t see why you are considering anywhere apart from the Netherlands. It should be possible for an immigration lawyer to fix the expired passport problem, and it checks the rest of your boxes. Just do it! If you hate it you can always return.

    Just because a passport expires doesn’t mean you are no longer a citizen, unless the Netherlands has some very strange laws.

    I agree on this. While the rules seem pretty clear as quoted by Inquisitor77 the possible upside is too good to ignore, at the very least contact the Dutch embassy and talk to them. Not only would a Dutch passport making many things easier right away, but it would also help open doors should you find that maybe somewhere else in the EU desirable (EU citizens are free to go where ever in the EU, one can even bring unemployment pay into another country).

    I found this text on on a government website (the bold is high light is mine):
    "Do you hold another nationality besides Dutch? If so, you could risk losing your Dutch nationality if you do not apply for a new Dutch passport or identity card or a Dutch nationality certificate before the validity period (10 years) expires."
    https://government.nl/topics/identification-documents/passports-identity-cards-and-dutch-nationality-certificates/applying-for-a-dutch-passport-abroad
    Also see this - note there is link to a contact form for questions.
    https://netherlandsworldwide.nl/countries/united-states/living-and-working/renewing-your-dutch-nationality-certificate


    Now generally on getting work. Right now there is chaos, but if we ignore that then things was pretty great in most of the Northern part of the EU ie. pretty much the Netherlands and northwards. It is still really early to call anything for sure and this is just based on Denmark where I live, but it does start to look like we will come out the other side fairly okay with the big question really being what is gonna go down when it comes to exports. Like fx. our biggest customer in value is the US with Germany a close second, if the US is in a bad way it will hurt exports for sure which then will cost jobs...
    Now I am not in the know of details, but I would expect the Netherlands to also come out one the other side okay. Only again it is still really early to say what it all means.


    PS. Just as the Netherlands we also have lots of bicycles and a funny language, so we might be an alternative to look into.



    Bones heal, glory is forever.
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    edited April 23
    Thanks for the tips, Blind. I've always heard that Denmark is gorgeous and a lovely place to live, and every Dane I've spoken to has reinforced that idea.

    My wife is going to reach out to the embassy again this week; looking at the email she sent in last time she was strictly asking about the status of her passport and, knowing how literal many Dutch folks are, I'm not surprised they addressed that question and simply moved on.

    However! We found some information that says, basically, she should 100% have Dutch citizenship as her father was a Dutch citizen when she was born. So, she's going to check in on that. Interestingly, if she IS in fact a Dutch citizen already then my path to citizenship is very simple - the laws we were able to find on the government websites say all I have to do is be married to a Dutch citizen for 3 years, and the country of residence doesn't matter at all.

    So, that's the current plan. I'm looking into various Masters programs here (with our current income we can very comfortably afford the tuition, so I won't have to take out any additional loans) in order to become a more qualified candidate for either graduate level work, or to keep teaching at the high school level in the EU. T is looking into the question of her citizenship status, and we'll hopefully be on the road to immigration sometime soon. Assuming the USA doesn't implode soon, anyway. Which...well, is more likely than it should be, but I guess we'll find out.

    Decatus on
    PSN: decatus90
    tynicInquisitor77CaedwyrZilla360CelestialBadgerJaysonFourJazzAbdhyiusSkeithThegreatcowRingo
  • chromdomchromdom Who? Where?Registered User regular
    edited April 27
    I have a couple of thoughts, based mostly on my own imagination:
    Have you considered a kid of half-way step? Moving to a Dutch territory for period of time to establish citizenship and Dutch work history? Might be an easier, smaller move, but could also incur the cost of another move down the line should you choose to go on to the Netherlands.
    Also, I know there are restrictions on getting universal healthcare as an immigrant; my own health conditions preclude me from joining Dutch healthcare as an immigrant (which is the point where I stopped looking -- I've had similar thoughts as you two), but as you research, be prepared to buy private insurance for some period of time.
    Finally, as I understand it, Germany has some very good academic programs, many are taught largely in English, and... there was a third thing that now I'm drawing a blank on. But someone else mentioned Germany upthread, so so just consider this as a second to their advice. Oh! The third thing was that German universities are free! That was it! I'm not sure that would pertain to people who are still foreign citizens, or in all cases, but if you all can work the timing, it's possible to move forward with your academics without it breaking your bank any further.

    EDIT:
    https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/immigration-germany/
    Germany Immigration for Education
    Many people are not aware of this, but Germany, offers free education. This means that unlike places like the U.S, which have enormous tuition fees, universities in Germany either have very low fees or do not charge anything at all. Because of this, Germany is a popular place to immigrate for education purposes.

    To immigrate to Germany for completing a university degree, you must obtain a visa to study in Germany. The article outlines the requirements that you need to meet and the process of applying to get such a visa.

    If you get your education visa for Germany and complete your degree, you can remain in Germany to search for a job for a limited period of time. If you can find a job during that time, you are allowed to stay in Germany. It is reported that up to 54% of students who complete a degree in Germany stay in the country and find a job.

    chromdom on
    Why do bad things keep happening to me?
    Oh yeah, because of the things I've done.
    Ringo
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    Dutch territories aren't really feasible, unfortunately. Mainly because moving continents is probably something we'll really only be willing to do once, and while the territories are lovely they aren't really places we'd love to live.

    Germany is certainly an interesting idea though, and something we'll definitely have to look into. I'm not sure if moving as a student is feasible though - we're probably going to have to buy a home because of our pets, so not having a steady income when moving would be very difficult.

    PSN: decatus90
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    Am Dutch. Would love to have more PAers around, so if you end up here lemme know. We live pretty central.

    --

    Just a few observations:the prices you see on houses on Funda are currently not what they're going for. It is a very competitive market with a terrible shortage of homes, so treat the listed price as the starting point of an auction. Renting is also weird with some pretty big price hikes in the last years and is also very competitive. If your wife has family here that you can stay with then that would really give you a leg up.

    Work for an international School can be good, I have met a bunch of teachers of the American School in Wassenaar and it is honestly one of the most beautiful and best schools in the world with students who get a lot of opportunities to excel. They pay well too, so they have no trouble finding teachers. There are more international schools and bilingual schools out there that are maybe easier to get into. I think previous experience with International Baccalaureate would be great in order to get in. I did find the culture in international schools a bit awkward, a lot of expat kids from the international upper class and families who are disinterested in the country they live in.

  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    edited April 28
    Hi Aldo - thanks for the heads up on Funda being a starting point, instead of an end point. Would you say that the housing market is highly competitive everywhere, or is it mostly in the larger cities? I know Amsterdam is nuts, and I assume Utrecht, Rotterdam, and the Hague are also pretty crazy, but would you say somewhere outside the cities would be just as difficult?

    I'm not sure if any of her family would have a room we could crash in for a while - we're mostly keeping the idea of moving to ourselves (at her request) until we can get more of the details ironed out. From what I remember, the family we visited lived around Maartensdijk, Nederhorst den Berg, and her cousin has a small apartment in Amsterdam with her boyfriend.

    While Maartensdijk and Nederhorst den Berg were beautiful, they weren't the most practical places - we had to get rides from family to go out that way, from what they said the public transit wasn't great in their particular areas. Or they didn't trust us to not get lost on the bus, that could also be it.

    I've been looking into the international schools - it seems like they're mostly in Amsterdam, the Hague, and Rotterdam, which is fine, but then we'd run into the housing problem. They all generally require a Masters degree as well, at least from what I've been able to see, which is going to be much easier to obtain here in the States compared to moving as a student.

    Edit: Oh, this is probably a silly question but I'm super curious. Is there any rhyme or reason for a word to be "de" or "het"? I'm mostly just trying to memorize at this point, but I can't remember de/het for anything.

    Decatus on
    PSN: decatus90
  • Ark EvensongArk Evensong The NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    edited April 29
    Decatus wrote: »
    Edit: Oh, this is probably a silly question but I'm super curious. Is there any rhyme or reason for a word to be "de" or "het"? I'm mostly just trying to memorize at this point, but I can't remember de/het for anything.

    Haha, no not really.
    If it's a gendered word, it's de - if it's grammatically neuter, het. So if a word refers to a person, it's usually gendered and thus de. For other words that explanation doesn't really help, because the way we tell those apart is by asking if it's a de/het word. There may be some etymological sense to it, but ehh, I wouldn't know it.

    Fork, spoon (vork, lepel): de
    Knife (mes): het
    ???

    Some exceptions to the lol, randomness:
    - Plural is always de.
    - The diminutive suffix (-je or -tje) makes it a het word. (A little boy or girl is neuter. Grammatically anyway.)

    Ark Evensong on
    Aldo
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    It is easier outside of the big cities, cities with universities and well-connected cities. So basically if you think it's an attractive place then there's probably a housing shortage. It sucks. It becomes easier when you already live here or can afford someone to handle all affairs for you. Then you can respond quickly and talk to the seller in person.

    If neither one of you can find a decent paying job here then I'm not even sure you can get a rental place, landlords ask for proof of income (usually 3x monthly rent) and racist jerks are everywhere who wouldn't want to rent to foreigners. Buying a home often requires a loan (hypotheek), but you can't get one without a steady income. I'm sorry, The Netherlands is not an easy place to migrate to at all. I think most expats moved here with their company sponsoring them and only decided to stay after working for a few years.

  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited April 29
    Disclaimer: I'm norwegian, not dutch, so take stuff with a grain of salt, but from reading the dutch rules for citizenship and immigration they seem to very closely mirror our own, only differing in specific number of years for X and such

    So as I understand it, your wife held dual citizenship, but lost her netherlands citizenship due to not renewing her passport within 10 years (which seems to be the main way the dutch government handles dual citizens not living in the netherlands declaring they still wish to remain a citizen - most EU/EEC countries have alike rules, where you have to in some way assert you still wish to remain a citizen after x amount of years, when you're not living in the country)

    https://ind.nl/en/dutch-citizenship/Pages/Loss-and-the-revoking-of-Dutch-nationality.aspx
    As a former Dutch citizen, you can regain Dutch nationality in 2 ways:

    By making use of the option procedure, in which you make a statement saying that you want to become a Dutch citizen again.

    By submitting an application for naturalisation as a Dutch citizen.

    The latter seems by far the easiest and shortest, as one year of residency is very short, as these things go:
    You are a former Dutch citizen and you have been legally resident in the Kingdom for at least 1 year, holding a valid residence permit for a non-temporary purpose such as family reunification or re-entry.

    (the wording is deliberate; this is not the same as a permanent residency permit)

    the most relevant "non-temporary purpose" is simply having paid employment.


    And it's important to note that student permits are temporary. Generally speaking across the EU, student permits don't count for permanent residency and/or citizenship.

    Abdhyius on
    ftOqU21.png
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited April 29
    I talked to my partner who has one coworker who did what you want. She's Australian and just moved here without a job and hasn't finished her bachelors in English Literature yet. She just rented a room somewhere and started applying with international companies for whatever job she could argue she would be a good fit for. She now works for a logistics company writing proposals (bid and tender) as one of the very few native English speakers in her office. She had to learn a lot about the industry, but her boss gave her a chance because she could show she was a good professional writer.

    Her backup plan was to just move back in with her parents if it wouldn't work out. Really great people's person and very confident despite growing up in rural Oz and being bullied by the local farm kids.

    Obviously didn't come with 3 cats and she was willing to take big risks with her savings and with her career.

    Aldo on
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited April 29
    Hi there

    Since you're an english teacher I would recommend keeping an eye on International schools in Europe. There is always at least some demand for english teachers with english as their native language.
    Here in Sweden for example we have IES (Internationella Engelska Skolan/International English School) who are actively recruiting teachers from US and Commonwealth countries.

    https://engelska.se/careers/introduction-ies


    Sweden isn't the Netherlands, but it's:
    • Cold. A climate very much influenced by the gulfstream the majority of the country has cool summers (with temperature topping out at 30C/85F and more commonly around 18-25 C/65-75F). The winter has a greater temperature variance, with up to -30C in the far north (and basically 4-6 hours of sunlight) and the south having more of a "We get like 3 days of snow/slush and the rest are irritatingly just a few degrees above freezing" climate.
    • So far left that US media frequently uses Sweden as an example of "dangerous socialism!". Universal healthcare, public transportation, green energy movement. We got it.
    • You can manage so well using the english language that a lot of english language immigrants complain that they don't get enough opportunities to practice their swedish.

    It's MUCH easier to get your foot inside Fortress Europe on a work visa, and your "I teach English language and it's my native language" is one of your strongest cards. The other being your wifes native roots in the Netherlands.

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudZilla360tynicRingo
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Yeah, in addition to the Netherlands, any of the Nordic countries would probably be good choices if you can bear the long and dark winters. As a hardcore lefty American you'd probably feel right at home here (I'm Finnish, and a pretty hardcore lefty even by our standards). I have some Americans and Canadians in my circle of friends, and from their experiences I have the impression that finding work here is easy if you have a marketable skill, even if you don't speak a word of the local language.

    MSL59.jpg
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    ...I hadn't really considered the Nordic countries because I've always read they're very difficult to get into, but I will admit that I idolize them to an extent because of how progressive they can be. Honestly, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are pretty much my "top 5" places to live, at least from what I've read and been told from people I've met who live in those places. I'm sure the weather would eventually get old, but considering the fact that we're hitting the high 90's this week (32+ C) and it's only April, I think the cold would be lovely for at least a few years. Plus, I can always put more clothes on...the public tends to get annoyed when you take everything off though, haha.

    Looking at the IES schools, their requirements seem to be quite reasonable - a Bachelors with a teaching certification is "good enough" for them, though I'm sure a Masters degree won't hurt at all. @Fiendishrabbit - I've spoken to a few Swedes before, but never extensively. Do you have any recommendations for resources I could take a look at to get an idea of a "typical" life in Sweden?

    @Bliss 101 - I don't really know anything about Finland, to be honest. As far as I'm aware, you're actually the first Finn I've had the pleasure of speaking with. I have the same basic question for you as I did Fiendish, if you don't mind - could you point me toward some resources to look into regarding "typical" Finnish life?

    PSN: decatus90
  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    Teaching in Denmark at a high school (or equivalent level) requires a master's in whatever subject you want to teach (but, once you have a master's, a secondary subject only requires a bachelor's, so your philosophy bachelor would be useful, for example). Being a native speaker won't hurt, of course, but it doesn't qualify you to teach English, a subject that is focused on grammar, literature and culture/history. You'd specifically need a master's in English, or an equivalent (some educations will give you credit).

    That will also be true for international schools. The international baccalaureate, for example, will be part of a typical high school and pull from their pool of teachers.

    This may wary from country to country, so I don't know specifically what international schools in Sweden require. Though, the younger the students, the less likely it will be that you can realistically teach without speaking the language. They'll all be quite good at English, but it would be super tricky to make it work realistically. So, the best bet is still to actually check whether your particular education gives you access to anything, and if not, to consider a master's in a subject - while keeping in mind that it will be hard without speaking the language (easier depending on international schools, but you'll still meet student there that aren't fluent in English, from experience).

    When you settle on a country, like the Netherlands, it would be useful to have someone check up on actual hiring needs for teachers. Denmark has a massive surplus of teachers, and some parts of the country are basically at a "fuck you" level of hiring unless you have a particularly desirable combination of subjects

    This post was sponsored by Goop.

    'Get your fucking finger on the wookie'
    AbdhyiusZilla360
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited April 29
    Decatus wrote: »
    ...I hadn't really considered the Nordic countries because I've always read they're very difficult to get into, but I will admit that I idolize them to an extent because of how progressive they can be. Honestly, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland are pretty much my "top 5" places to live, at least from what I've read and been told from people I've met who live in those places. I'm sure the weather would eventually get old, but considering the fact that we're hitting the high 90's this week (32+ C) and it's only April, I think the cold would be lovely for at least a few years. Plus, I can always put more clothes on...the public tends to get annoyed when you take everything off though, haha.

    Looking at the IES schools, their requirements seem to be quite reasonable - a Bachelors with a teaching certification is "good enough" for them, though I'm sure a Masters degree won't hurt at all. @Fiendishrabbit - I've spoken to a few Swedes before, but never extensively. Do you have any recommendations for resources I could take a look at to get an idea of a "typical" life in Sweden?

    @Bliss 101 - I don't really know anything about Finland, to be honest. As far as I'm aware, you're actually the first Finn I've had the pleasure of speaking with. I have the same basic question for you as I did Fiendish, if you don't mind - could you point me toward some resources to look into regarding "typical" Finnish life?

    GETTING IN
    Getting into Scandinavia
    Getting into Scandinavia can be tough, but getting a work-VISA if you have special skills (like you do) if you have a company that wants you to come to sweden and work. Super easy. And since you have a work, then your wife will have an easy time getting in as well. But if you didn't have particular skills, like if you were a welder with no rare specialities. Much tougher.

    CULTURE
    How do I Swede
    https://sweden.se/ is a pretty good resource.
    Note that if you search for "working in Sweden" you might find https://workinginsweden.se. It's generally useful, but if you look at Teacher and see the requirements...don't get discouraged. Only some of those apply to teachers working with IES (who are working under a Swiss educational charter if I remember it right), and if you apply to an IES school they will help you with the necessary paperwork, including work permits, appliyng for a social security number etc.
    You can also look up "living in sweden" on youtube. Most of it is pretty accurate, but the intervieweees are mostly university students and their experiences are based on university life.

    Da Government
    Note that Sweden is superbureaucratic (you'll be registered, have a personal identification number that pretty much every authority or bank will ask you for etc), but it's also pretty chill about it. Government agencies are helpful and interacting with a government agency is generally quite painless (except the Unemployment agency. Fuck those guys).

    The people
    Swedish culture is at the same time both very casual* and very reserved. If you want to know people and not be a stranger in a strange land you need to do something that requires socialization (because socializing just because is very un-swedish). Typicly over social hobbies or stuff like bicycle clubs or something like that (WARNING: Being a member of a bicycle club requires the ability to wear neon and tight pants and not die from shame. Bicycle clubs are also slightly cult-like in Sweden. A lot of social activities can get kinda cult-like, although not as cult-like as Bicycle clubs, because when Swedish people do stuff we tend to get serious).

    Being a teacher
    Swedish teachers are normally pretty casual (used to be different, although the last of the old guard retired around 30 years ago when I was a kid), although IES are way less casual than most. In IES usually teachers are adressed as Mr/Ms (although you can choose if you want to be adress by your first name or surname). Which is practically unheard of in a normal swedish school where everyone is on first name basis (although don't let the kids ever use a nickname. That's a level of familiarity that will backfire if you ever try it).
    Dressing to an appropriate level for an IES teacher can be a bit of a challenge the first time you visit.
    This is your average group of Swedish teachers
    This could be your IES collegues
    The inofficial dresscode at your IES school could be anywhere in between. When I substituted at an IES school I wore black jeans and very neat, stern and freshly ironed shirt. None of my collegues wore both jacket&tie (it was either tie&shirt, shirt&jacket or something more casual).

    ECONOMY
    Renting
    Swedish landlords are kinda pet friendly. On the downside, rental apartments are expensive. While a short term rental would be fine for the first year or so you'd be much better off looking for a "bostadsrätt" (apartments belonging to a housing cooperative) to buy yourself into for long-term investment. Owning a bostadsrätt is generally not much more complicated than renting an apartment, and the fees of a good bostadsrätt are MUCH lower. It does take capital though. By swedish law 15% comes out of your own pocket. Money that you do get back when you sell the bostadsrätt, and the fees+interest on loan are usually so much lower than a rental that within 2-3 years you'll have your 15% back AND value of owning your own bostadsrätt.

    Wife&Economy&"Can we live on a single wage?" info.
    Workinginsweden.se will probably be quite helpful for your wife, since while getting into sweden wouldn't be hard for her (with you having a job and the two of you being married), getting a job with a foreign criminal justice degree or a foreign vetrinarians assistant certification is...tougher.
    On the upside. Education, since she would have a temporary residence permit that's not a study permit, is free. Free in that there are no tuition fees. She'd have to get the necessary course literature (which range between $100-$500 USD for a term depending on the subject) and most certifications require a working knowledge in Swedish (but those classes are also free or free-ish)
    However, a teacher in Sweden usually makes enough money that you can live in a decent apartment (by Swedish standards) and still live comfortably as long as you work full time (which is a 45 hour workweek for a teacher. Normal workweek is 40 hours in Sweden, but teachers have longer workdays since they have a longer vacation. 3 months of paid vacation per year, although you have very limited rights to pick which weeks since they follow the school year).
    Living in a single-income household though would probably mean "no car" Owning a car is expensive. About 5 times as expensive per month as a 30-day public transportation pass (and public transportation is good over here) to the point that both you and your wife could have public transportation passes AND you could rent a car for a day every two weeks and it would still be cheaper. Generally you don't need a car if you live in the city. A bike on the other hand is often very necessary, and most cities are very bike friendly.

    Overall you would have to prioritize until you have a 2-income household (so if you want house, I know a lot of US people do, that would have to wait for a few years). But it's seriously a feasible plan.

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    tynicDecatusMoridin889chromdomHappylilElfSiskaRingoCommander ZoomSkeithZilla360
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    New Zealand?

  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited May 1
    Grislo wrote: »
    Teaching in Denmark at a high school (or equivalent level) requires a master's in whatever subject you want to teach (but, once you have a master's, a secondary subject only requires a bachelor's, so your philosophy bachelor would be useful, for example). Being a native speaker won't hurt, of course, but it doesn't qualify you to teach English, a subject that is focused on grammar, literature and culture/history. You'd specifically need a master's in English, or an equivalent (some educations will give you credit).

    That will also be true for international schools. The international baccalaureate, for example, will be part of a typical high school and pull from their pool of teachers.

    This may wary from country to country, so I don't know specifically what international schools in Sweden require. Though, the younger the students, the less likely it will be that you can realistically teach without speaking the language. They'll all be quite good at English, but it would be super tricky to make it work realistically. So, the best bet is still to actually check whether your particular education gives you access to anything, and if not, to consider a master's in a subject - while keeping in mind that it will be hard without speaking the language (easier depending on international schools, but you'll still meet student there that aren't fluent in English, from experience).

    When you settle on a country, like the Netherlands, it would be useful to have someone check up on actual hiring needs for teachers. Denmark has a massive surplus of teachers, and some parts of the country are basically at a "fuck you" level of hiring unless you have a particularly desirable combination of subjects

    International Baccalaureate works the same way in Norway - we had IB classes in my high school, and it was organizationally part of the public school system with all the same requirements for teachers - requiring a master's degree in specifically high school teaching, and norwegian fluency. I don't know what it's like getting a foreign education accepted, but I imagine it's complicated. Norwegian fluency is a hard requirement.

    But the International Schools are private high schools that don't require norwegian fluency, and looking at job postings, they usually demand "just" a master's degree in teaching from anywhere and usually a couple years of experience. And their turnaround for teachers is quite high, they say.

    Expats teaching expats, kind of thing.



    also, correction on what I said earlier about student permits: Student permits don't generally count for amount of years you need to stay to get permanent residency or citizenship - but I forgot to mention (both in the Netherlands and Norway) that you'll be able to get a permit to stay to look for work after completing your studies. So studying in the EU is an option to get in.


    EDIT: as an aside, ballpark measure for pay as a high school teacher is, starting year, 450'000 USD (Ballpark because International Schools aren't beholden to the public salary schemes so I couldn't tell you exactly what you'd be making, but.)

    Abdhyius on
    ftOqU21.png
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    almost everything that fiendishrabbit said mostly applies to being a teacher in Norway, too

    especially the thing about being on first names. I think I'm one of the last generations that remember ever calling their teacher Frøken, in third grade she just became Katrine. I don't know the surname of a single teacher I ever had.

    There is likewise no tuition, but international students don't get student loans so you need to find a way to finance your living expenses yourself. International students on student visas can have part time work.

    Anyway about international schools, these are the current job postings for one I pulled at semi-random just to look at their requirements (the international school of stavanger, where I'm from - the oil business is centered in Stavanger and so the amount of expats there is quite high)

    https://isstavanger.no/?page_id=368

    ftOqU21.png
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    @Decatus at the risk of slight derailment of the thread, keep in mind that if you decide to keep your US citizenship, you'll need to file taxes in the US even if you don't end up paying anything (which you shouldn't).

    H3Knuckles
  • DecatusDecatus Registered User regular
    Thanks for all the info about the IB and International schools, guys, you've really given me quite a bit more to consider. They may be a good way for me to move forward as well if they require a Masters in Teaching/Education; I'd have a bit of a hard time getting a Masters in English because my BA is in Philosophy (if I could go back in time...) but I'm in the process of reaching out to a few MA in Teaching/Education programs and so far they've all said they'd be happy to have me. At this point, I'm probably looking at 1.5 - 2 years to get my MA depending on the program, and then I'd have 5-7 years of teaching under my belt as well, which could help to make me a more desirable candidate.

    Honestly, if we're able to immigrate somewhere that we can live on my salary and that has free tuition for colleges, I'd be 100% happy to have T go back to school and earn a new degree so she could get a job she'd be happy with in our new home.

    @chrishallett83 Things I know about New Zealand: It's beautiful. It is, in fact, a place that exists and stupid map makers sometimes forget to put it on the map. It's kinda by Australia. The government seems to respond well when something horrid happens to it's people. I want to say they passed more stringent gun control last year because of a mass shooting? That's...really it, honestly. Oh, wait, no - it's relatively sparsely populated, according to Wikipedia. From five minutes of research, housing would be an issue - the internet says foreigners can't buy homes in New Zealand, so we'd have to try and rent with our animals. =(

    PSN: decatus90
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Decatus wrote: »
    Thanks for all the info about the IB and International schools, guys, you've really given me quite a bit more to consider. They may be a good way for me to move forward as well if they require a Masters in Teaching/Education; I'd have a bit of a hard time getting a Masters in English because my BA is in Philosophy (if I could go back in time...) but I'm in the process of reaching out to a few MA in Teaching/Education programs and so far they've all said they'd be happy to have me. At this point, I'm probably looking at 1.5 - 2 years to get my MA depending on the program, and then I'd have 5-7 years of teaching under my belt as well, which could help to make me a more desirable candidate.

    Honestly, if we're able to immigrate somewhere that we can live on my salary and that has free tuition for colleges, I'd be 100% happy to have T go back to school and earn a new degree so she could get a job she'd be happy with in our new home.

    @chrishallett83 Things I know about New Zealand: It's beautiful. It is, in fact, a place that exists and stupid map makers sometimes forget to put it on the map. It's kinda by Australia. The government seems to respond well when something horrid happens to it's people. I want to say they passed more stringent gun control last year because of a mass shooting? That's...really it, honestly. Oh, wait, no - it's relatively sparsely populated, according to Wikipedia. From five minutes of research, housing would be an issue - the internet says foreigners can't buy homes in New Zealand, so we'd have to try and rent with our animals. =(

    The path to citizenship in NZ is nowhere near as draconian and punitive as it is in the US, and you don't even have to go that far, permanent residents can buy property.

  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Still NZ rental laws are much stricter on pets than is actually legal in scandinavia.
    Rental laws are slightly different across scandinavia, but in Sweden landlords are actually not allowed to put "no pets" on the contract unless the entire building is allergenic-rated (which most buildings aren't, because you have to fulfill some pretty harsh demands). Nuisance complaints are a thing though. So loud noises at night (which is generally defined as after 22.00 and before 06.00), the smell of cat urine in common areas (like the stairwell) etc. Luckily houses are also built pretty sturdy and double-pane windows is standard, so your cat would have to be pretty loud to generate a noise complaint. So generally for a cat owner odor-neutralization is generally the key.

    It's not until you get to "exotic pets" that Sweden becomes...more of a hassle. Most forms of exotic pets are not allowed, and those that are require a special license from the environmental agency.

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    Decatus wrote: »
    @Bliss 101 - I don't really know anything about Finland, to be honest. As far as I'm aware, you're actually the first Finn I've had the pleasure of speaking with. I have the same basic question for you as I did Fiendish, if you don't mind - could you point me toward some resources to look into regarding "typical" Finnish life?

    Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, I got busy and then kind of managed to forget.

    Generally everything Fiendishrabbit posted about Sweden also applies to The Socialist Utopia of Finland. The Finnish society has basically used Sweden as a template since World War II, and even before that, and today the societies are remarkably similar. Like Sweden, Finland relies heavily on regulations and bureaucracy, and I think we're slightly less chill about it, but it's all electronic and easy to navigate. The main differences are cultural. Compared to us, swedes are very social and outgoing. Finland is one of the few countries in the world where introversion is basically the social norm. So if you really like your personal space, come to Finland. Otherwise Sweden might be easier to adjust to. Most people I've met who have moved here from other countries have said that for a while they felt like their presence somehow offended everyone here, because we instinctively step back from anyone who approaches us, and we generally don't spontaneously talk to people for no reason. But eventually they adjusted, and those uncomfortable silences became comfortable silences.

    MSL59.jpg
    DecatusFiendishrabbitZilla360Janson
  • SkeithSkeith Registered User regular
    edited May 9
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but in the considered opinions of the Scandinavian contingent, how easy a time would I have finding work as a librarian in that part of the world?

    Skeith on
    mts wrote: »
    heres how i see it being a total win situation for you
    1. stay with your wife while she dog sits. this wins husband points since she knows its out of your comfort zone
    2. have sex all over her friends house so that the next time you see her friend look at you condescendingly, you can wink back knowing you did the freaky deaky where she eats her cheerios.
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited May 9
    Skeith wrote: »
    I don't want to hijack the thread, but in the considered opinions of the Scandinavian contingent, how easy a time would I have finding work as a librarian in that part of the world?

    For Sweden. Tough. Very tough. Like, near impossible to break into from outside the system. A masters degree in library and information science or the equivalent is practically mandatory. You're also pretty much required a secondary specialization in litterature, communication or pedagogy (librarian vs children's librarian) and some experience working with swedish library systems.

    P.S: Only a finn would call swedes "social and outgoing".

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
    Bliss 101EchoZilla360GrisloSiska
Sign In or Register to comment.