Preach made a video reviewing the interview, not much to say that hasn't been discussed, but a big thing is what players are doing. Numbers are coming in, from Raider.io and the like and....M+ is stagnant, since most players are switching to PvP since you can actually get loot there.
At this point it’s clear they have a developed idea of how much time players should spend running content to get gear; making you spend time in game is core to the business model after all.
Previously they did this by having relatively rare titanforges provide the ‘stretch’ toward max ilvl; you got a base set of gear quickly and titanforges over time. Players evidently provided enough bad feedback on this that they were convinced to just make drops the bottleneck.
The part that (imo) players largely don’t get is that it’s always gonna work this way; they will find a way to make you spend time running content because that’s how the game makes money.
I do agree the current system kinda sucks when you specifically need a certain trinket or similar, though
I'm curious. Are the people who chase the best gear actually the ones they have retention problems with? Aren't they sticking around for all the new tiers/ilevel increases of an expansion anyway to go further on the treadmill? I could see it more for the last tier of an expansion, since that always runs long until the next expansion and probably sees the most drop off.
Even if I somehow magically had best in slot gear 2 months into this expansion, there is so much optional and side content this time around I'd still feel like there are plenty of things to do.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Just remove M+ from the game already, mode fuckin' sucks.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
That's largely a joke but I do think M+ is the least interesting version of Content they've ever added to the game. It's just a worse version of Diablo Rifts.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
i've come all the way on the Jailer and think he's a total dweeb now. he's just sitting there every day trying to do bad guy things and then he hears someone's beat up beth-gorr again and he yells. he's out there like hmm yes no one ever escapes from my super prison and then his dudes can't even contain a dog
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I don't think mythic+ is for me but I totally see the appeal. Pushing skill to the limit with 4 other people is a lot more accessible than trying to push things with a raid of at least 9 other people.
Plus finding new ways to speed through it and setting the bar must be pretty awesome.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I'm just not a big fan of strictly timed content in general, but in a rando PUG setting? Ugh.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
M+ is absolutely required because before they added it, dungeons were legit DEAD. There were likely many people who played WoD and never saw half the dungeons, because for most of the expansion there was never a reason to do them. M+ made and kept dungeons relevant. I just think there should be a way to do it without having to fully engage with the time aspect. Like if you could maintain a key level per week without timing?
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
M+ is absolutely required because before they added it, dungeons were legit DEAD. There were likely many people who played WoD and never saw half the dungeons, because for most of the expansion there was never a reason to do them. M+ made and kept dungeons relevant. I just think there should be a way to do it without having to fully engage with the time aspect. Like if you could maintain a key level per week without timing?
You do maintain your key level without timing, it just doesn't increase.
I think people are making too much of a deal out of the timing aspect. M+ isn't about rushing through, for the most part. You want to know your routes and not kill too many mobs, but the % clear requirement means you actually do significantly less skips in M+ than M0s. The "speed" almost entirely has to do with your DPS and ability to avoid wipes as enemies and affixes get tougher and tougher. It's basically just "do damage and do mechanics," which, I get if people find it stressful to be "on" for 30 minutes but you can always push lower than your ilvl would normally allow for and end up with a much chiller experience.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
You don’t maintain the key level the next week. If all you do is complete a run YOUR key will alway go down one level each week.
I mean maybe there could be an option to get a key of equal level the next week that was incapable of having its level increase. So you push the main key, but could acquire one for the week that is equal to your highest completion the last week just to run for fun.
M+ is great, because I can do it with friends without having to PUG.
Raids are going to be a nightmare because no one in my friend group is willing to recruit, so it's somehow fallen to me, the most irresponsible and anxious of us all.
My best solution is 'PUG normals at our raid times and try to recruit for heroic from that' which means pugging and engaging with pugs, which is, to be clear, the worst.
M+ is not my thing. It makes me grind my teeth to have to do some of it for vault reward options, but it's kind of necessary because, as previously mentioned, loot is pants right now, and it's the only reasonably reliable way - outside of PvP - to get gear.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Doing raids gets you an option too.
I mean, I think the point is M+ is the only way to get loot ahead of the difficulty level you are completing. Which is the point and the best thing they have done this expansion. People shouldn't have been EXPECTING Mythic level gear regularly when they are only doing normal raids.
I'm very aware that doing raids gives me options. But I need to maximize the number of options so that I don't end up getting options for slots I already have filled.
Also M+ is not the only way to get loot ahead of your difficulty, because PvP offers even better, targetable progression.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I would not consider getting loot from pvp going ahead of your difficulty. Ilvl scaling is gone from pvp. Gear makes a huuuuuuuuuge difference in that. And if you don’t do anything to get pvp rating the best you can get is ilvl 200. The best part of pvp is that if you get a ton of that ilvl 200 stuff then get higher rating later, you can upgrade every slot rather easily. But I would say outside of being a glad and highly outskilling your opponents, you won’t even be hitting 1400 without at least an average ilvl of 200.
Just got an Eternally Preserved Scarab off a rare. Is this just a vendor trash item? If so, why can't they stick to keeping them as gray?
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
So last time I played in legion I was working on some pain in the ass engineering thing on my engi and it involved getting rare part drops from the Ulduar raid in wrath. Anyone know what that was for? I can't remember at all.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
So last time I played in legion I was working on some pain in the ass engineering thing on my engi and it involved getting rare part drops from the Ulduar raid in wrath. Anyone know what that was for? I can't remember at all.
That's just the thing. What I'm asking for (a properly informative UI and abilities that behave correctly) would literally reduce the incentive to rely on a guide or addon. The fact that the game frequently doesn't give you the right information to make informed decisions is a total failure. I think having to lose via trial and error because the game misleads you is terrible design. Then you have to hope you remember what caused you to fail that specific mission in the past by the next time you can attempt it, which could be a day or two later. For an unlimited lives, fast respawn platformer game? Sure, go ahead. Trial and error away! For a game where attempts cost resources, resolutions play out hours or a day after you set them up, and retries take a significant amount of time or resources (i.e., health regen), I think precision should be a priority.
You don't have to lose though, you can observe through the trivial stuff. There's enough enemy variety in there that you'll get an idea of how targeting and ability descriptions work. Resources are eh, it's anime. You get more than enough through doing everything else, you'd be hard pressed to burn through it on just missions. If there's a tough mission, I'd just schedule it to end in the late evening so your mans can heal overnight. IIRC they will heal even though the mission hasn't been cleared from the list by you.
And I feel like there's this underlying drive to go go must succeed every mission push to the top. What's the rush? Take your time and learn the ins and outs! There's nothing mission critical in there.
Again, there are ability descriptions that are literally wrong, along with no way to verify auto attack targeting in the game UI. Seeing completely different abilities on trivial stuff does nothing to prepare you for new abilities in challenging fights that may or may not behave as advertised. Anima is used for a million things in Shadowlands, so personally I'd appreciate having less of it wasted. I highly doubt I'm the only one who feels like I have "more than enough."
I am glad you are enjoying the defect-laden adventures. I just would have liked to see it actually released as a finished product.
Oh and hell, even cooldowns don't work as advertised.
Can you provide some of the wrong ability/cooldown descriptions? Not saying you're wrong or anything, just curious which ones you've encountered.
Bonesmith Heirmir's "thorns" passive literally does nothing, which makes her absolutely terrible in missions. I'm curious if there's a worse adventurer that's a Soulbind.
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Dyshow am I even using this gunRegistered Userregular
That's just the thing. What I'm asking for (a properly informative UI and abilities that behave correctly) would literally reduce the incentive to rely on a guide or addon. The fact that the game frequently doesn't give you the right information to make informed decisions is a total failure. I think having to lose via trial and error because the game misleads you is terrible design. Then you have to hope you remember what caused you to fail that specific mission in the past by the next time you can attempt it, which could be a day or two later. For an unlimited lives, fast respawn platformer game? Sure, go ahead. Trial and error away! For a game where attempts cost resources, resolutions play out hours or a day after you set them up, and retries take a significant amount of time or resources (i.e., health regen), I think precision should be a priority.
You don't have to lose though, you can observe through the trivial stuff. There's enough enemy variety in there that you'll get an idea of how targeting and ability descriptions work. Resources are eh, it's anime. You get more than enough through doing everything else, you'd be hard pressed to burn through it on just missions. If there's a tough mission, I'd just schedule it to end in the late evening so your mans can heal overnight. IIRC they will heal even though the mission hasn't been cleared from the list by you.
And I feel like there's this underlying drive to go go must succeed every mission push to the top. What's the rush? Take your time and learn the ins and outs! There's nothing mission critical in there.
Again, there are ability descriptions that are literally wrong, along with no way to verify auto attack targeting in the game UI. Seeing completely different abilities on trivial stuff does nothing to prepare you for new abilities in challenging fights that may or may not behave as advertised. Anima is used for a million things in Shadowlands, so personally I'd appreciate having less of it wasted. I highly doubt I'm the only one who feels like I have "more than enough."
I am glad you are enjoying the defect-laden adventures. I just would have liked to see it actually released as a finished product.
Oh and hell, even cooldowns don't work as advertised.
Can you provide some of the wrong ability/cooldown descriptions? Not saying you're wrong or anything, just curious which ones you've encountered.
Bonesmith Heirmir's "thorns" passive literally does nothing, which makes her absolutely terrible in missions. I'm curious if there's a worse adventurer that's a Soulbind.
She also has loads of health and heals herself for a bit every other round. Gunn Gorgebone does the same thing, and putting him in a spot that is going to get a lot of direct attacks has won me a good deal of missions. It winds up giving your other dudes enough time to start taking out troublesome enemies, before they themselves all start getting attacked and killed.
I would not consider getting loot from pvp going ahead of your difficulty. Ilvl scaling is gone from pvp. Gear makes a huuuuuuuuuge difference in that. And if you don’t do anything to get pvp rating the best you can get is ilvl 200. The best part of pvp is that if you get a ton of that ilvl 200 stuff then get higher rating later, you can upgrade every slot rather easily. But I would say outside of being a glad and highly outskilling your opponents, you won’t even be hitting 1400 without at least an average ilvl of 200.
My point is that it's an incredibly superior method of gearing.
By contrast, in four raid clears I have gotten one upgrade from actual drops in the raid. Everything else has been from the vault and M+.
I mean hey, if the current system works for you, happy to hear it. But I mostly play this game to raid with some buddies that I've had since BC, and don't care for those other modes. So if this is Blizzard's new intent and not just a fuckup to be fixed with a badge system, I'll probably end up just playing something else, until the pendulum swings back to raids again.
That's just the thing. What I'm asking for (a properly informative UI and abilities that behave correctly) would literally reduce the incentive to rely on a guide or addon. The fact that the game frequently doesn't give you the right information to make informed decisions is a total failure. I think having to lose via trial and error because the game misleads you is terrible design. Then you have to hope you remember what caused you to fail that specific mission in the past by the next time you can attempt it, which could be a day or two later. For an unlimited lives, fast respawn platformer game? Sure, go ahead. Trial and error away! For a game where attempts cost resources, resolutions play out hours or a day after you set them up, and retries take a significant amount of time or resources (i.e., health regen), I think precision should be a priority.
You don't have to lose though, you can observe through the trivial stuff. There's enough enemy variety in there that you'll get an idea of how targeting and ability descriptions work. Resources are eh, it's anime. You get more than enough through doing everything else, you'd be hard pressed to burn through it on just missions. If there's a tough mission, I'd just schedule it to end in the late evening so your mans can heal overnight. IIRC they will heal even though the mission hasn't been cleared from the list by you.
And I feel like there's this underlying drive to go go must succeed every mission push to the top. What's the rush? Take your time and learn the ins and outs! There's nothing mission critical in there.
Again, there are ability descriptions that are literally wrong, along with no way to verify auto attack targeting in the game UI. Seeing completely different abilities on trivial stuff does nothing to prepare you for new abilities in challenging fights that may or may not behave as advertised. Anima is used for a million things in Shadowlands, so personally I'd appreciate having less of it wasted. I highly doubt I'm the only one who feels like I have "more than enough."
I am glad you are enjoying the defect-laden adventures. I just would have liked to see it actually released as a finished product.
Oh and hell, even cooldowns don't work as advertised.
Can you provide some of the wrong ability/cooldown descriptions? Not saying you're wrong or anything, just curious which ones you've encountered.
Bonesmith Heirmir's "thorns" passive literally does nothing, which makes her absolutely terrible in missions. I'm curious if there's a worse adventurer that's a Soulbind.
She also has loads of health and heals herself for a bit every other round. Gunn Gorgebone does the same thing, and putting him in a spot that is going to get a lot of direct attacks has won me a good deal of missions. It winds up giving your other dudes enough time to start taking out troublesome enemies, before they themselves all start getting attacked and killed.
Yeah Heirmir is a tank, not a DPSer. Stick her on the front with Emeni next to or behind her.
That's just the thing. What I'm asking for (a properly informative UI and abilities that behave correctly) would literally reduce the incentive to rely on a guide or addon. The fact that the game frequently doesn't give you the right information to make informed decisions is a total failure. I think having to lose via trial and error because the game misleads you is terrible design. Then you have to hope you remember what caused you to fail that specific mission in the past by the next time you can attempt it, which could be a day or two later. For an unlimited lives, fast respawn platformer game? Sure, go ahead. Trial and error away! For a game where attempts cost resources, resolutions play out hours or a day after you set them up, and retries take a significant amount of time or resources (i.e., health regen), I think precision should be a priority.
You don't have to lose though, you can observe through the trivial stuff. There's enough enemy variety in there that you'll get an idea of how targeting and ability descriptions work. Resources are eh, it's anime. You get more than enough through doing everything else, you'd be hard pressed to burn through it on just missions. If there's a tough mission, I'd just schedule it to end in the late evening so your mans can heal overnight. IIRC they will heal even though the mission hasn't been cleared from the list by you.
And I feel like there's this underlying drive to go go must succeed every mission push to the top. What's the rush? Take your time and learn the ins and outs! There's nothing mission critical in there.
Again, there are ability descriptions that are literally wrong, along with no way to verify auto attack targeting in the game UI. Seeing completely different abilities on trivial stuff does nothing to prepare you for new abilities in challenging fights that may or may not behave as advertised. Anima is used for a million things in Shadowlands, so personally I'd appreciate having less of it wasted. I highly doubt I'm the only one who feels like I have "more than enough."
I am glad you are enjoying the defect-laden adventures. I just would have liked to see it actually released as a finished product.
Oh and hell, even cooldowns don't work as advertised.
Can you provide some of the wrong ability/cooldown descriptions? Not saying you're wrong or anything, just curious which ones you've encountered.
Bonesmith Heirmir's "thorns" passive literally does nothing, which makes her absolutely terrible in missions. I'm curious if there's a worse adventurer that's a Soulbind.
She also has loads of health and heals herself for a bit every other round. Gunn Gorgebone does the same thing, and putting him in a spot that is going to get a lot of direct attacks has won me a good deal of missions. It winds up giving your other dudes enough time to start taking out troublesome enemies, before they themselves all start getting attacked and killed.
In my experience there are very few missions where one spot takes most the damage. Enemy attacks are usually spread out amongst the front and sometimes back line, and their abilities are often AoEs that are hitting half your team, so bursting down 1 or 2 targets to significantly reduce incoming damage seems to be the more effective strategy. Occasionally a tank is useful, but not that often.
And the point you seem to have missed is that the Soulbind followers are supposed to be significantly better adventurers since they have two abilities, but she is basically no better than Gunn since one of her two abilities doesn't work.
I like that as a paladin and a maldraxian you can ask the bonesmith about Alexandros's "not ashbringer" and learn its called fatebringer and the skull is not apparently of the shadowlands.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
In my experience there are very few missions where one spot takes most the damage. Enemy attacks are usually spread out amongst the front and sometimes back line, and their abilities are often AoEs that are hitting half your team, so bursting down 1 or 2 targets to significantly reduce incoming damage seems to be the more effective strategy. Occasionally a tank is useful, but not that often.
I often find tank types very useful! The left most front line position will often take a LOT of attacks in many board configurations, and having someone self sufficient in there helps everyone else freely DPS and can also make it so they're healthy for a new deployment straight after that one.
And the point you seem to have missed is that the Soulbind followers are supposed to be significantly better adventurers since they have two abilities, but she is basically no better than Gunn since one of her two abilities doesn't work.
It seems to be the design that Blizzard adopted for the mission table (annoyingly) - some covenants have great companions straight off the bat and weaker ones later, whereas others are the opposite. Kyrian was extremely painful in missions up until what seems to be now, as our latest follower, Mikanikos, brings some much needed damage reduction abilities to the table.
Dunno about Venthyr though, nothing really stands out as much as some of the others from what I've seen unlocked.
I kind of hate the adventures at this point. The UI is at the same time too simple and too fiddly, with important information not present or present in inconvenient ways making it increasingly difficult to manage the level of strategy it seems to want you to employ. More to the point it makes it difficult for me to judge whether I'm doing things right or not. I find it really hard to tell whether I'm losing missions because I did it wrong with the placement, or my units are too weak, or my covenant is just fucked for this activity.
The ways the levels scale makes it feel like the more interesting missions are permanently beyond my reach, so I continue to do the 4hr missions in a vain hope that eventually my units will level up to be able to engage more with this aspect of the game. But it feels like an interminable grind. Anything beyond the basic missions is such a crapshoot as to whether I might be lucky enough to win that it just feels like a massive waste of already limited resources.
And given how meagre the table scraps of rewards these missions present it hardly feels worth the effort to engage with it further. I'll just take my 5-10 anima every 4 hours and wait until either my units outlevel everything and I can start doing the real missions or the system gets overhauled to actually be fun and worthwhile instead of a button that generates disappointment on a 12hr delay. Although I'm starting to get tired of dealing with the anima smugglers, catastrophic skeleton invasions and fugitive ash ghouls...
-SPI- on
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anoffdayTo be changed whenever Anoffday gets around to it.Registered Userregular
I just impulse bought the shadowlands epic edition last night. I haven't spent that much on a game in a long time, so I'm hoping I don't have buyer's remorse, but it seems to be a pretty big hit so far?
I just impulse bought the shadowlands epic edition last night. I haven't spent that much on a game in a long time, so I'm hoping I don't have buyer's remorse, but it seems to be a pretty big hit so far?
Everyone's mileage is going to vary of course, and there are issues, but yeah it seems to be a lot of fun so far and there's more than enough good to outweigh the bad imo.
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Powerlevling it is then...sigh. Thanks.
Even if I somehow magically had best in slot gear 2 months into this expansion, there is so much optional and side content this time around I'd still feel like there are plenty of things to do.
Plus finding new ways to speed through it and setting the bar must be pretty awesome.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Mostly cause I already raid way too much in FF14, so committing to a whole new raid group sounds like hell.
You do maintain your key level without timing, it just doesn't increase.
I think people are making too much of a deal out of the timing aspect. M+ isn't about rushing through, for the most part. You want to know your routes and not kill too many mobs, but the % clear requirement means you actually do significantly less skips in M+ than M0s. The "speed" almost entirely has to do with your DPS and ability to avoid wipes as enemies and affixes get tougher and tougher. It's basically just "do damage and do mechanics," which, I get if people find it stressful to be "on" for 30 minutes but you can always push lower than your ilvl would normally allow for and end up with a much chiller experience.
The PUG problem is real, though.
you could just edit that to "lfr is wild because you have to do basically nothing but instead they fuck it up."
I mean maybe there could be an option to get a key of equal level the next week that was incapable of having its level increase. So you push the main key, but could acquire one for the week that is equal to your highest completion the last week just to run for fun.
that's a boring post though. do YOU wanna make a boring post? not me. i'm 24/7 bangers
r u tho
I haven't done a random pug M+ yet in SL, get a guild people!
Raids are going to be a nightmare because no one in my friend group is willing to recruit, so it's somehow fallen to me, the most irresponsible and anxious of us all.
My best solution is 'PUG normals at our raid times and try to recruit for heroic from that' which means pugging and engaging with pugs, which is, to be clear, the worst.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I mean, I think the point is M+ is the only way to get loot ahead of the difficulty level you are completing. Which is the point and the best thing they have done this expansion. People shouldn't have been EXPECTING Mythic level gear regularly when they are only doing normal raids.
Also M+ is not the only way to get loot ahead of your difficulty, because PvP offers even better, targetable progression.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
this is awesome
(looks like controller input but still)
Streaming 8PST on weeknights
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
https://www.wowhead.com/item=132531/reaves-module-piloted-combat-mode
She also has loads of health and heals herself for a bit every other round. Gunn Gorgebone does the same thing, and putting him in a spot that is going to get a lot of direct attacks has won me a good deal of missions. It winds up giving your other dudes enough time to start taking out troublesome enemies, before they themselves all start getting attacked and killed.
My point is that it's an incredibly superior method of gearing.
By contrast, in four raid clears I have gotten one upgrade from actual drops in the raid. Everything else has been from the vault and M+.
I mean hey, if the current system works for you, happy to hear it. But I mostly play this game to raid with some buddies that I've had since BC, and don't care for those other modes. So if this is Blizzard's new intent and not just a fuckup to be fixed with a badge system, I'll probably end up just playing something else, until the pendulum swings back to raids again.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Yeah Heirmir is a tank, not a DPSer. Stick her on the front with Emeni next to or behind her.
Phew made it. Now I can relax and gear up on my own time.
And the point you seem to have missed is that the Soulbind followers are supposed to be significantly better adventurers since they have two abilities, but she is basically no better than Gunn since one of her two abilities doesn't work.
pleasepaypreacher.net
It seems to be the design that Blizzard adopted for the mission table (annoyingly) - some covenants have great companions straight off the bat and weaker ones later, whereas others are the opposite. Kyrian was extremely painful in missions up until what seems to be now, as our latest follower, Mikanikos, brings some much needed damage reduction abilities to the table.
Dunno about Venthyr though, nothing really stands out as much as some of the others from what I've seen unlocked.
The ways the levels scale makes it feel like the more interesting missions are permanently beyond my reach, so I continue to do the 4hr missions in a vain hope that eventually my units will level up to be able to engage more with this aspect of the game. But it feels like an interminable grind. Anything beyond the basic missions is such a crapshoot as to whether I might be lucky enough to win that it just feels like a massive waste of already limited resources.
And given how meagre the table scraps of rewards these missions present it hardly feels worth the effort to engage with it further. I'll just take my 5-10 anima every 4 hours and wait until either my units outlevel everything and I can start doing the real missions or the system gets overhauled to actually be fun and worthwhile instead of a button that generates disappointment on a 12hr delay. Although I'm starting to get tired of dealing with the anima smugglers, catastrophic skeleton invasions and fugitive ash ghouls...
Everyone's mileage is going to vary of course, and there are issues, but yeah it seems to be a lot of fun so far and there's more than enough good to outweigh the bad imo.