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Tales of Final Dragon Ocean: A JRPG Thread

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    My problem with Gacha is just let me buy the heroes I want.

    Main reason I haven't bothered with Genshin

    They absolutely let you buy the heroes you want.

    They're super expensive, but you can definitely buy what you want in Genshin.

    Oh...I may have to look at it again then.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    My problem with Gacha is just let me buy the heroes I want.

    Main reason I haven't bothered with Genshin

    They absolutely let you buy the heroes you want.

    They're super expensive, but you can definitely buy what you want in Genshin.

    Oh...I may have to look at it again then.

    i don't know what you parsed "super expensive" as, but i promise you, the number you have in your head is significantly lower than reality

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    *looks up*
    Over $400!?

  • DelzhandDelzhand Registered User, Transition Team regular
    Sounds like they went "how much would the hardest-core whale spend on currency to get this at the absolute worst drop rate?"

  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Lucedes wrote: »
    All Gacha Is Bad Gacha

    there are some good games that are also gachas.

    all of them would be immediately improved if they removed the gacha parts.

    No doubt! I'm sure they exist. The idea of gacha is basically removing portion of gameplay that many people would normally find part of the draw and replacing it with the real money gambling. Remove that real money gambling and add back in that normal part of gameplay and the improvement is gigantic.

    Not to mention the fact that the game will always need to be built around the gacha aspect means, despite what some gacha folks may try and tell you, you can't actually just ignore the gacha. Whether you interact with it or not it's built into the game.

  • turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    Genshin's drop rates and the rate you earn in game resources is egregiously bad too, even by gacha standards.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    My problem with Gacha is just let me buy the heroes I want.

    Main reason I haven't bothered with Genshin

    They absolutely let you buy the heroes you want.

    They're super expensive, but you can definitely buy what you want in Genshin.

    Oh...I may have to look at it again then.

    i don't know what you parsed "super expensive" as, but i promise you, the number you have in your head is significantly lower than reality

    Yeah I looked it up so my initial impression of it being glorified gambling still stands.

  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    a lot of gachas have a "pity" or "spark" system where if you pull X times on a banner, you can choose a drop to get anyway. they are all, at a minimum, hundreds of dollars if you start from 0. now, strictly speaking, these are designed with the assumption that most players have free currency that stacks up over time. i play granblue, never put a dime in, and have done it like 10 times

    but also, if you want to start spending money to do that pull from 0, they're not gonna say no

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    I feel like on average that sort of pity system is six hundred bucks on the low end

  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    MOST Gacha pity systems are ridiculous. Example, the Nier gacha game, which people will describe as relatively generous with gacha currency, will have banners with 3 desirable characters. Getting pity for ONE of them is twenty 10 pulls. It's less "pity" and more so "to prevent our highest spending players from coming to the office to attack us physically."

    Edit: Bad math misspeaking here on my first try, but just to correct the sense of scale, completing an entire event and getting all the currency rewards from it might be good for say, 3 10 pulls in this game. There MIGHT be two events in a month, maybe only one. So saving for twenty 10 pulls through just playing would be in the neighborhood of 6 months+. There's good rewards from playing the main story, but those are one off, so you could easily deplete the entire campaign of the game on ONE banner and then never have that resource again.

    shoeboxjeddy on
  • FremFrem Registered User regular
    turtleant wrote: »
    Genshin's drop rates and the rate you earn in game resources is egregiously bad too, even by gacha standards.

    I give Genshin Impact a lot of grace here just because it has actual gameplay. Maybe there's stuff at the high end raids where I’d need a fully speced out team. But rolling with the default characters and my c0 and c1 free pulls has been fine for my dozens of hours of open world exploration.

    It’s an incredible game with a scammy gambling mechanic bolted on the side.

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    a lot of gachas have a "pity" or "spark" system where if you pull X times on a banner, you can choose a drop to get anyway. they are all, at a minimum, hundreds of dollars if you start from 0. now, strictly speaking, these are designed with the assumption that most players have free currency that stacks up over time. i play granblue, never put a dime in, and have done it like 10 times

    but also, if you want to start spending money to do that pull from 0, they're not gonna say no

    A lot of them don't include free currency in the pity system too

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  • TcheldorTcheldor Registered User regular
    My big Gacha for a long time was Epic 7, and you could easily save up enough free currency to pity most units. That game was relatively generous with the stuff for characters because its gearing was much more random.

    Speaking of Revived Witch, I saw an ad for it a little bit ago. Is that game actually good?

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  • turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    I am gonna try that Shining Force gacha when it comes out. I hope it is manageable

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  • Fig-DFig-D SoCalRegistered User regular
    Dissidia is my gatcha of choice and fortunately it's not super stingy with giving away the premium currency, gems.

    Don't buy gems though. Never buy gems. The real world currency to in game currency conversion is fucking awful.

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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    It chafes, but I think I'm going to have to bust the difficulty down to Normal for Riku mode in Chain of Memories. Aside from the game's already-irritating trump-card mechanic*, you have this super mode that fills up and activates as you outplay the enemy's cards. The problem is that whatever card you play when you finally fill up the bar gets cancelled... and if that card happens to be one of the all-important healing cards that you're only afforded at random intervals, well, sucks to be you, try the battle again.

    * I'm totally on-board with the premise that a 0 card beats everything, and that the enemy is allowed to cancel a super move already in progress by playing one. The same option is available to you; fair's fair. What I take issue with is the fact that most boss characters' 0-value card is a combo move, and you're not allowed to play anything while in hitstun. Meanwhile, your 0 cards are all single-hit slappers. So on your end you can cancel boss specials with a slap on the wrist, and on their end they can not only cancel your supers but also blow away half your health or more, because they basically start their combo for free when you're reeling from the card-break. Insofar as the game takes pains to make the player and the enemy play by the same rules, that's infuriating.

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  • LarsLars Registered User regular
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    I'm surprised we don't see gacha adoption elsewhere. buy 100 funbucks and spend it on our sports gambling website

  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    There are (or were, I haven't paid attention to them in a while) a bunch of gambling apps that escape(d) being considered "gambling" because you bought funbux and gambled them away with 0% chance of monetary return.

  • MalReynoldsMalReynolds The Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicines Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    When I was like, 8, I went to an amusement park in North Carolina called Dowdys, and they had token slots. You could only put in and win tokens.

    How do you get tokens?

    Buy em' at the counter. 4 for a dollar.

    I left with $20, going in with like $10, and proceeded to celebrate by riding a wooden coaster. On the first hill a dragonfly flew into my mouth on the way down.

    I spit the wings out but that baby was gooooone.

    Since then, I've had the strength of a typical adult person plus one wingless dragonfly

    MalReynolds on
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  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

    This isn't really the big thing you'd think it was.

    What would they have to adapt? Required age gating which phone makers would have to enforce. Which means those phone makers would need a system to regulate and control this. Which means loss of privacy for all users because it'd become a store default.

    I guess they'd get code checked to see that their odds are correct but that's easy.

    Gambling ain't actually regulated much at all once it's allowed legally. Especially with no expected payout mechanic.

    All that would happen is the 'Protect the children!' (Who shouldn't have access to money if their parents had an iota of personal responsibility. Phones and such already have a myriad ways to stop a child if you somehow cant control your credit card personally. I dunno maybe your kid beats you up.) strawman would be well and truly dead and Apple/Google would have a new valid excuse to find out and verify your age/identity. Woo.

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  • DelzhandDelzhand Registered User, Transition Team regular
    edited November 2021
    When I was like, 8, I went to an amusement park in North Carolina called Dowdys, and they had token slots. You could only put in and win tokens.

    How do you get tokens?

    Buy em' at the counter. 4 for a dollar.

    I left with $20, going in with like $10, and proceeded to celebrate by riding a wooden coaster. On the first hill a dragonfly flew into my mouth on the way down.

    I spit the wings out but that baby was gooooone.

    Since then, I've had the strength of a typical adult person plus one wingless dragonfly

    Yeah, but was the dragonfly SR, SSR, or UR?

    Delzhand on
  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

    Well, I know that Final Fantasy Record Keeper is shutting down in some countries because of lootbox-as-gambling regulations possibly happening.

  • LarsLars Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

    This isn't really the big thing you'd think it was.

    What would they have to adapt? Required age gating which phone makers would have to enforce. Which means those phone makers would need a system to regulate and control this. Which means loss of privacy for all users because it'd become a store default.

    I guess they'd get code checked to see that their odds are correct but that's easy.

    Gambling ain't actually regulated much at all once it's allowed legally. Especially with no expected payout mechanic.

    All that would happen is the 'Protect the children!' (Who shouldn't have access to money if their parents had an iota of personal responsibility. Phones and such already have a myriad ways to stop a child if you somehow cant control your credit card personally. I dunno maybe your kid beats you up.) strawman would be well and truly dead and Apple/Google would have a new valid excuse to find out and verify your age/identity. Woo.

    The thing is, getting it allowed legally across many different regions is a big hurdle in itself.

    Additionally, gachas prey on people with gambling addictions far more than they do children. And they prey pretty viciously.

    It's not good for children, as it contributes to turning them into future gambling addicts (even if they aren't currently spending money on them), but they're making their money on the current gambling addicts and that needs to be addressed.

    Gachas are gambling, and gachas are bullshit, and they should be better regulated.

    And if you don't want Apple/Google collecting information on your identity...well, there's not much you can do because they're going to do that anyways but that's a different topic entirely.

  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Lars wrote: »
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

    This isn't really the big thing you'd think it was.

    What would they have to adapt? Required age gating which phone makers would have to enforce. Which means those phone makers would need a system to regulate and control this. Which means loss of privacy for all users because it'd become a store default.

    I guess they'd get code checked to see that their odds are correct but that's easy.

    Gambling ain't actually regulated much at all once it's allowed legally. Especially with no expected payout mechanic.

    All that would happen is the 'Protect the children!' (Who shouldn't have access to money if their parents had an iota of personal responsibility. Phones and such already have a myriad ways to stop a child if you somehow cant control your credit card personally. I dunno maybe your kid beats you up.) strawman would be well and truly dead and Apple/Google would have a new valid excuse to find out and verify your age/identity. Woo.

    I think certain odds can be so bad, they are literally illegal under many regulations, so no I don't agree with this. Also the idea that Google and Apple don't already know all the details of your identity from your phone use is ridiculous on its face AND your statement that kids spending tons of money is a strawman instead of a terrible thing that has actually happened to MANY people leads me to believe you need to do a LOT more reading.

    shoeboxjeddy on
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Lars wrote: »
    If gacha was rightly classified as gambling and subject to all the applicable gambling laws, how many gachas would adapt and how many would cease to exist?

    This isn't really the big thing you'd think it was.

    What would they have to adapt? Required age gating which phone makers would have to enforce. Which means those phone makers would need a system to regulate and control this. Which means loss of privacy for all users because it'd become a store default.

    I guess they'd get code checked to see that their odds are correct but that's easy.

    Gambling ain't actually regulated much at all once it's allowed legally. Especially with no expected payout mechanic.

    All that would happen is the 'Protect the children!' (Who shouldn't have access to money if their parents had an iota of personal responsibility. Phones and such already have a myriad ways to stop a child if you somehow cant control your credit card personally. I dunno maybe your kid beats you up.) strawman would be well and truly dead and Apple/Google would have a new valid excuse to find out and verify your age/identity. Woo.

    I think certain odds can be so bad, they are literally illegal under many regulations, so no I don't agree with this. Also the idea that Google and Apple don't already know all the details of your identity from your phone use is ridiculous on its face AND your statement that kids spending tons of money is a strawman instead of a terrible thing that has actually happened to MANY people leads me to believe you need to do a LOT more reading.

    Japan actually has banned some gacha practices and has some minimum rate regulations in place iirc?

    At the very least, properly classifying gacha as gambling would be a starting point to more tailored regulation. Though even just getting the basic stuff about age limits and such would be good.

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  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    we can't even classify gambling and gambling and you think we're about to classify gacha as gambling????

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Nevada requires slot machines have a minimum theoretical payout of "75% for each wager available for play on the device." They also provide monthly statistics for slot machines organized by various stuff like district and denomination

    Nevada also prohibits gambling devices with a theme "derived from or based on a product that is currently and primarily intended or marketed for use by persons under 21 years of age"

  • BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User regular
    Konami is very sad about that I'm sure

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    People often assume Japan has more regulations about gacha than it does

    As far as I'm aware, you just have to show your rates including the rate of getting any one specific pull, and it cannot have "kompugacha'" mechanics (Pull this set of things to trade in for the rarer thing)

  • chocoboliciouschocobolicious Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Maddoc wrote: »
    People often assume Japan has more regulations about gacha than it does

    As far as I'm aware, you just have to show your rates including the rate of getting any one specific pull, and it cannot have "kompugacha'" mechanics (Pull this set of things to trade in for the rarer thing)

    Rates isn't a law, it's simply an internal regulation, least the last time I looked it up.

    Complete gacha is the one and only actual law and that's covers a lot of things not just mobile gacha. Though even this is easily bypassed by making the gacha just give currency to buy the things you need to compete. Ala Final Gear with it's 'pull for the pilot and use tokens from the gacha to buy the Mecha' mechanic.


    Also just to further highlight how kind of pointless it all is: China with it's strict ban on gambling doesn't consider Genshin gambling. Why? Because the guarantee makes it a raffle. Digital products can be very agile. If the market is big enough they'll make some minor change to slip right by and the markets that are too small will just close up.


    As for kids spending money: I've done plenty of reading. 100% of the time it is the fault of the parents.

    Every device has parental controls. Kids cannot own a credit card. Child accounts at banks can not only be limited to what they can spend but also alert the parent every time it is used. Stores can be setup to alert you every time a purchase is made or credit is added.

    So where are these kids getting all this money to spend? Is a bad man in the alley sharking them saint quartz?

    This think of the children bullshit is just a strawman for people being too lazy to take the five minutes to secure their account.


    Preying on people with a gambling addiction is a whole other thing I'm not as well versed in because I'm not even sure how you'd somehow control the choices of an adult.

    chocobolicious on
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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Putting a button that says "spend $100 instantly!" in your children's game is not the fault of parents for not realizing how absolutely scummy the video game business is right now. It's a lesson they will only need to learn once, but nothing about "Madden 2022" says "an international money smuggling ring" on its face. It's not like if you leave a kid alone with Netflix, they can spend hundreds of dollars in an hour. The video games the parents might remember from back in their day would also not be possible to do that with. Instead of saying "Well, parents should find out about the massively unethical behavior in today's videogames and then take protective steps to avoid letting that damage their family's finances," we could instead... ban that shit?

  • DaebunzDaebunz Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    finally started tales of arise, party member question
    i'm not sure I fully understand playing as rinwell, stacking charged spells seems slow and bad? does she get better later in the game when you can presumably just cast the higher level spells normally? or should i just not play as her

    Daebunz on
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  • StiltsStilts Registered User regular
    finally started tales of arise, party member question
    i'm not sure I fully understand playing as rinwell, stacking charged spells seems slow and bad? does she get better later in the game when you can presumably just cast the higher level spells normally? or should i just not play as her
    Rinwell was my favorite character in the game to play as.

    Once you start unlocking her passives, you can get ones that decrease your cast time when you use spells in a combo. That'll let you cast a couple fast spells, then cast more powerful ones (which you can unlock as hard-castable spells) much quicker.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Tales of arise side boss
    Who fucking thought this earth temple design was a good idea? Fuck this

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  • DaebunzDaebunz Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Stilts wrote: »
    finally started tales of arise, party member question
    i'm not sure I fully understand playing as rinwell, stacking charged spells seems slow and bad? does she get better later in the game when you can presumably just cast the higher level spells normally? or should i just not play as her
    Rinwell was my favorite character in the game to play as.

    Once you start unlocking her passives, you can get ones that decrease your cast time when you use spells in a combo. That'll let you cast a couple fast spells, then cast more powerful ones (which you can unlock as hard-castable spells) much quicker.
    hmm, ok. casting while moving also looked good. need more sp

    I put her in goofy sunglasses and I'm like "now we're cookin'"

    Daebunz on
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  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Yea rinwell gets super strong with time. And with enough cast speed dare I say completely busted as she chain casts the biggest spells like a boss?

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Anybody checked out Megaton Musashi as of yet (Japan only thus far).

    If the anime adaptation that started a couple months ago is any indicator, it's going to be bafflingly insane.

    It's Level 5, so I'd expect it to come west eventually.

    ArcTangent on
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  • FremFrem Registered User regular
    The video games the parents might remember from back in their day would also not be possible to do that with.

    “Back in the day” is on the cusp of being outdated.

    These video game gambling shenanigans started around the time Mass Effect 3 came out. A 13 year old who played ME3 on release is now old enough to have a few kids.

  • Andy JoeAndy Joe We claim the land for the highlord! The AdirondacksRegistered User regular
    Frem wrote: »
    The video games the parents might remember from back in their day would also not be possible to do that with.

    “Back in the day” is on the cusp of being outdated.

    These video game gambling shenanigans started around the time Mass Effect 3 came out. A 13 year old who played ME3 on release is now old enough to have a few kids.

    In this economy!?

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