MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
My point was pay people more money, small businesses have more significant issues that need to be addressed by regulation and starving out workers isn't the solution to even a single one of their real problems.
From experience, most restaurants operate at a loss for the first year, and barely a year out from that. So a sudden jump to $25 an hour would torch the fields.
The companies that could survive the jump are the ones who should be paying it already, regardless of what the government says. Walmart, Amazon, etc. Companies hiring at a massive scales.
people said this about fifteen bucks an hour and if you've been paying attention you know that was bullshit
don't know why it wouldn't still be bullshit
If you were paying attention, you would know i mean immediately jumping to 25 from 15 rather than phasing it in.
Can you please explain how an immediate change to a living wage would bankrupt a business, but a gradual rollout wouldn’t?
Wages are typically the largest expense in a business. Most businesses do not have large profits as a percentage of revenue. And businesses are run off budgeting and planning. It's easier to say we need to make some business changes to be making X profit in 5 years to cover our expected expenses than it is to say we need to be making X profit by tomorrow or we won't have enough funds to cover payroll.
Additionally that first year of businesses is operating at a loss to build up market share and a customer base.
Dropping a fast rollout changes all those calculations made in the runup to opening. A slow rollout allows time to adapt.
Disclaimer #1, amazon does not need a slow rollout and Seattle wrote execeptions into amazon tier companies in their pay chanhes
Disclaimer #2, slow rollout to $15 by 2030 is bullshit in a 2020 economy.
Disclaimer 3, Microsoft operated at a loss running the 1st xbox but could do so because they hade microsoft money.
So in conclusion, if you want minimum wage increases, support small businesses that will struggle to adapt.
Awesome, thanks for responding!
Stew, if a business was able to take significant money off their opex, they would be doing that already. That’s the nature of private business. These changes go through an announcement and commencement date. You would be looking at 6 to 12 months from announcement to implementation. If your business is not agile enough to respond to that sort of time frame, that’s your own fault. If we’re worried about small business here, that is especially true. If the government really wanted to throw business a bone, they could defer some sales tax/payroll tax/capex tax for a set period.
Royce no offence taken but that is a real pop culture understanding of how businesses tend to operate. Sure, it’s a strategy that’s in the public consciousness thanks Uber, Amazon and others, but it is not how your average business operates. Sure you may have an opening day sale or something, but we are talking days, maybe weeks at best, if at all.
If the tolerated price for your good/service is x, you are better served (at the scale we are taking here) maintaining that margin and leveraging your network or differentiating yourself through your service/product.
My father put food on the table by opening businesses in Seattle central district. The last years of his life was trying to do the same. This is not pop culture but my past.
What I am saying is that there is good reason most businesses fail in that first year. Dropping a change like this would fuck up a lot of business opening and preparing to open.
But that is the price to pay to bring American wages forward from their stagnation these last forty years.
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
I'm saying that businesses have other shit to sort out
I'm saying that whatever damage they might incur from paying people what they ought to be paid is inconsequential compared to the damage that mega corps have done to the marketplace
Paying people poverty wages is just an easy bandage on a seeping wound, because workers can't effectively fight back in this shithole country, while the huge businesses coming in an undercutting them don't have to worry about razor thin margins and the worst of the worst offenders can push the local government around for even further advantages under the guise of creating jobs
Literally there is zero excuse ever under any circumstances to pay people poverty wages, I don't care if a business closes, I don't care if a hundred or a thousand businesses close, paying a worker less than a living wage is unacceptable.
I'm saying that businesses have other shit to sort out
I'm saying that whatever damage they might incur from paying people what they ought to be paid is inconsequential compared to the damage that mega corps have done to the marketplace
Paying people poverty wages is just an easy bandage on a seeping wound, because workers can't effectively fight back in this shithole country, while the huge businesses coming in an undercutting them don't have to worry about razor thin margins and the worst of the worst offenders can push the local government around for even further advantages under the guise of creating jobs
Literally there is zero excuse ever under any circumstances to pay people poverty wages, I don't care if a business closes, I don't care if a hundred or a thousand businesses close, paying a worker less than a living wage is unacceptable.
In essence, low wages are silent infections in the economy. By the time you see and smell it, serious damage has already been done.
I'm saying that businesses have other shit to sort out
I'm saying that whatever damage they might incur from paying people what they ought to be paid is inconsequential compared to the damage that mega corps have done to the marketplace
Paying people poverty wages is just an easy bandage on a seeping wound, because workers can't effectively fight back in this shithole country, while the huge businesses coming in an undercutting them don't have to worry about razor thin margins and the worst of the worst offenders can push the local government around for even further advantages under the guise of creating jobs
Literally there is zero excuse ever under any circumstances to pay people poverty wages, I don't care if a business closes, I don't care if a hundred or a thousand businesses close, paying a worker less than a living wage is unacceptable.
Oh yes I agree with you! Anti-trust and anti-capture regulations, as just two examples, hugely fucked!
For me personally there’s sort of two progressions I want to we happen. One is fixing the basics like what we’re talking about, the other is a complete abolition of the capitalist mode of production because it is fundamentally against the idea of universal human dignity and decency
imagine taking a picture of today and threatening it as the future
that's like... 50% of pro-capitalist arguments
there's an entire genre of twitter posts that's like a picture of run-down buildings with the words "here's what america would look like under socialism!!!" and then you do a reverse image search and it's a month-old photo of detroit
It's like how during the BLM protests people were saying "this is what a Biden/Warren/Sanders presidency will look like" despite that being what Trump's presidency looking like already.
+25
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
I legit forgot McD's installed those because I haven't been inside a fast food restaurant since March.
imagine taking a picture of today and threatening it as the future
that's like... 50% of pro-capitalist arguments
there's an entire genre of twitter posts that's like a picture of run-down buildings with the words "here's what america would look like under socialism!!!" and then you do a reverse image search and it's a month-old photo of detroit
do you want to live in a place where everybody works themselves to death for the benefit of a tiny elite and you are never able to realize the full value of your own work and you can't even get basic shit necessary for life without jumping through draconian hoops?
imagine taking a picture of today and threatening it as the future
Yeah, those exist for like half a decade now or longer.
Taco Bell has these too, but that doesn't mean there's no one at the actual register, or at the grill, or the window, etc. Because they know even if people want to use the electronic kiosk to order, there's people who only want to deal with other people. There's a reason Japan is focused so much on humanizing their robots.
+15
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
I actually hate the McD's that give you the number and someone brings you the food. Fuck that noise, you employees don't get paid enough to bring it to me, just say my number and I'll pick up my own junk.
I actually hate the McD's that give you the number and someone brings you the food. Fuck that noise, you employees don't get paid enough to bring it to me, just say my number and I'll pick up my own junk.
I'd also be shocked if these machines actually appreciably increase efficiency in any way
Making customers look at a ton of panes of options strikes me as being slower than just walking up and saying your order to somebody
Like, you end up with two split queues between the humans and the screens, but they end up serving the same number of people and you need the same amount of folks in the kitchen/at the counters I'd expect
I actually hate the McD's that give you the number and someone brings you the food. Fuck that noise, you employees don't get paid enough to bring it to me, just say my number and I'll pick up my own junk.
I'd also be shocked if these machines actually appreciably increase efficiency in any way
Making customers look at a ton of panes of options strikes me as being slower than just walking up and saying your order to somebody
Like, you end up with two split queues between the humans and the screens, but they end up serving the same number of people and you need the same amount of folks in the kitchen/at the counters I'd expect
They just have a big old pad of buttons for all the items and know where it is, so yeah - much easier to use language. Human brain OP pls no nerf.
My hunch would be those screens that McDonald’s installed didn’t lead to less employees, but just more orders per hour etc. also worrying that raising the minimum wage will get people replaced by automation is insane. If a company can replace its workers with automation it will, unless those workers can work for the cost or less of the automation. So saying that raising the minimum wage will get workers replaced is like arguing “we need to lower the minimum wage so we can be attractive to companies seeking to replace us with automation”
It’s a backwards argument and reinforces how our entire perspective on work and wage is warped
Are the self service kiosks big in grocery stores in the USA? They are everywhere here.
Most McDs here in NZ just straight up will not serve you from the counter and I’m sure they were doing that before the virus
Depends on the chain but if they have them they usually have 6 or 12 around here. Course in my state you can't buy booze at them so there's always a couple registers open.
0
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Are the self service kiosks big in grocery stores in the USA? They are everywhere here.
Most McDs here in NZ just straight up will not serve you from the counter and I’m sure they were doing that before the virus
Self-checkouts? They're pretty common here in grocery stores and Target/Walmart etc. (though not in Whole Foods yet, as far as I've seen - I guess Bezos is waiting until he can implement that Amazon store "take shit off the shelves and walk out and our all-seeing Brother Eye will charge your Prime account" tech). I imagine it's a regional thing though, they're probably less common in lower-income areas?
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Self checkouts have also seen a surge recently because of COVID. Like, even Publix has some now. Publix, whose entire thing is “we pay our staff more so they are nicer to you” has self checkouts.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+1
facetiousa wit so dryit shits sandRegistered Userregular
we should be celebrating increased automation and freeing up humans from the drudgery of work so that they can pursue more useful pursuits, which would increase happiness and health for the individual, and lead to major breakthroughs in science, medicine, arts, etc. for all of society
but because we think people have to work to justify living (and even that's not enough these days!) we can't conceive of such a thing
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
The amount of labor that some working class people will put into defending capitalists and tearing down their fellow workers is depressing
my last job was in a factory. after a couple years there i low-key tried to start a union which never got off the ground, but it was incredible how the dudes i worked with would twist themselves into knots defending the people exploiting us which no one even disagreed was what was happening. there's some heavy psychology and incredibly effective propagandizing at work there that for the life of me i don't know how to fight against
you can lay out all the indisputable facts about wage labor being inherently exploitative and unfair and people will mostly agree, but if you start talking about solutions to that exploitation everyone looks at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears. it's really disheartening
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The amount of labor that some working class people will put into defending capitalists and tearing down their fellow workers is depressing
my last job was in a factory. after a couple years there i low-key tried to start a union which never got off the ground, but it was incredible how the dudes i worked with would twist themselves into knots defending the people exploiting us which no one even disagreed was what was happening. there's some heavy psychology and incredibly effective propagandizing at work there that for the life of me i don't know how to fight against
you can lay out all the indisputable facts about wage labor being inherently exploitative and unfair and people will mostly agree, but if you start talking about solutions to that exploitation everyone looks at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears. it's really disheartening
Admitting that you have been conned is one of the hardest things for people to admit.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The amount of labor that some working class people will put into defending capitalists and tearing down their fellow workers is depressing
my last job was in a factory. after a couple years there i low-key tried to start a union which never got off the ground, but it was incredible how the dudes i worked with would twist themselves into knots defending the people exploiting us which no one even disagreed was what was happening. there's some heavy psychology and incredibly effective propagandizing at work there that for the life of me i don't know how to fight against
you can lay out all the indisputable facts about wage labor being inherently exploitative and unfair and people will mostly agree, but if you start talking about solutions to that exploitation everyone looks at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears. it's really disheartening
When I was first writing the post I had "I don't understand why...", but deleted it because unfortunately I do understand why. People have just full accepted what the capitalists say as truisms, and it's easier to accept your lot in life when you can say you're at least doing better than that guy over there then it is to try and fight back against the people with true power.
So instead I settled for "it's depressing". Just have to keep hoping that more and more people get fed up with the bullshit
The amount of labor that some working class people will put into defending capitalists and tearing down their fellow workers is depressing
my last job was in a factory. after a couple years there i low-key tried to start a union which never got off the ground, but it was incredible how the dudes i worked with would twist themselves into knots defending the people exploiting us which no one even disagreed was what was happening. there's some heavy psychology and incredibly effective propagandizing at work there that for the life of me i don't know how to fight against
you can lay out all the indisputable facts about wage labor being inherently exploitative and unfair and people will mostly agree, but if you start talking about solutions to that exploitation everyone looks at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears. it's really disheartening
When I was first writing the post I had "I don't understand why...", but deleted it because unfortunately I do understand why. People have just full accepted what the capitalists say as truisms, and it's easier to accept your lot in life when you can say you're at least doing better than that guy over there then it is to try and fight back against the people with true power.
So instead I settled for "it's depressing". Just have to keep hoping that more and more people get fed up with the bullshit
I think one of the very few positives from our annus horribilis was that more people were pushed over into the fed up zone
i hate that small business owners have become a holy class when they are generally among the worst people on earth
yeah at least immense corporations will generally fuck you within the generous bounds of the law and not in every single way the petty tyrant that owns the place can think of and won't pay a lawyer to tell them it's illegal
of course it's not like the law really matters when penalties for labor violations almost certainly cost less than the money the company makes violating labor laws. there's no downside for them, the fuckers
it's tough because small business owners can be bigtime sacks of shit, but on the flipside they can also be people that regularly work 15+ hour days to keep their business afloat
my mom used to own a flower shop and anytime a big flower holiday hit she basically lived at the shop for the week. The schoolbus used to drop me off there instead of at home.
it's tough to, for example, convince her that workers are somehow cheated or exploited by their bosses when she has first-hand experience working twice as hard as anyone she ever hired
Posts
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
My father put food on the table by opening businesses in Seattle central district. The last years of his life was trying to do the same. This is not pop culture but my past.
What I am saying is that there is good reason most businesses fail in that first year. Dropping a change like this would fuck up a lot of business opening and preparing to open.
But that is the price to pay to bring American wages forward from their stagnation these last forty years.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I'm saying that whatever damage they might incur from paying people what they ought to be paid is inconsequential compared to the damage that mega corps have done to the marketplace
Paying people poverty wages is just an easy bandage on a seeping wound, because workers can't effectively fight back in this shithole country, while the huge businesses coming in an undercutting them don't have to worry about razor thin margins and the worst of the worst offenders can push the local government around for even further advantages under the guise of creating jobs
Literally there is zero excuse ever under any circumstances to pay people poverty wages, I don't care if a business closes, I don't care if a hundred or a thousand businesses close, paying a worker less than a living wage is unacceptable.
In essence, low wages are silent infections in the economy. By the time you see and smell it, serious damage has already been done.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Oh yes I agree with you! Anti-trust and anti-capture regulations, as just two examples, hugely fucked!
For me personally there’s sort of two progressions I want to we happen. One is fixing the basics like what we’re talking about, the other is a complete abolition of the capitalist mode of production because it is fundamentally against the idea of universal human dignity and decency
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
imagine taking a picture of today and threatening it as the future
that's like... 50% of pro-capitalist arguments
there's an entire genre of twitter posts that's like a picture of run-down buildings with the words "here's what america would look like under socialism!!!" and then you do a reverse image search and it's a month-old photo of detroit
Yeah, those exist for like half a decade now or longer.
They also thought they were documenting something analogous to the boston tea party
do you want to live in a place where everybody works themselves to death for the benefit of a tiny elite and you are never able to realize the full value of your own work and you can't even get basic shit necessary for life without jumping through draconian hoops?
because that's socialism, apparently
hitting hot metal with hammers
the government not giving people the means to stay alive is the same as killing them itself
hitting hot metal with hammers
Taco Bell has these too, but that doesn't mean there's no one at the actual register, or at the grill, or the window, etc. Because they know even if people want to use the electronic kiosk to order, there's people who only want to deal with other people. There's a reason Japan is focused so much on humanizing their robots.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I'd also be shocked if these machines actually appreciably increase efficiency in any way
Making customers look at a ton of panes of options strikes me as being slower than just walking up and saying your order to somebody
Like, you end up with two split queues between the humans and the screens, but they end up serving the same number of people and you need the same amount of folks in the kitchen/at the counters I'd expect
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
They just have a big old pad of buttons for all the items and know where it is, so yeah - much easier to use language. Human brain OP pls no nerf.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
It’s a backwards argument and reinforces how our entire perspective on work and wage is warped
Most McDs here in NZ just straight up will not serve you from the counter and I’m sure they were doing that before the virus
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Depends on the chain but if they have them they usually have 6 or 12 around here. Course in my state you can't buy booze at them so there's always a couple registers open.
Self-checkouts? They're pretty common here in grocery stores and Target/Walmart etc. (though not in Whole Foods yet, as far as I've seen - I guess Bezos is waiting until he can implement that Amazon store "take shit off the shelves and walk out and our all-seeing Brother Eye will charge your Prime account" tech). I imagine it's a regional thing though, they're probably less common in lower-income areas?
but because we think people have to work to justify living (and even that's not enough these days!) we can't conceive of such a thing
Steam: Chagrin LoL: Bonhomie
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
my last job was in a factory. after a couple years there i low-key tried to start a union which never got off the ground, but it was incredible how the dudes i worked with would twist themselves into knots defending the people exploiting us which no one even disagreed was what was happening. there's some heavy psychology and incredibly effective propagandizing at work there that for the life of me i don't know how to fight against
you can lay out all the indisputable facts about wage labor being inherently exploitative and unfair and people will mostly agree, but if you start talking about solutions to that exploitation everyone looks at you like you have lobsters crawling out of your ears. it's really disheartening
hitting hot metal with hammers
Abusive relationships are a helluva thing.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Admitting that you have been conned is one of the hardest things for people to admit.
When I was first writing the post I had "I don't understand why...", but deleted it because unfortunately I do understand why. People have just full accepted what the capitalists say as truisms, and it's easier to accept your lot in life when you can say you're at least doing better than that guy over there then it is to try and fight back against the people with true power.
So instead I settled for "it's depressing". Just have to keep hoping that more and more people get fed up with the bullshit
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I think one of the very few positives from our annus horribilis was that more people were pushed over into the fed up zone
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
yeah at least immense corporations will generally fuck you within the generous bounds of the law and not in every single way the petty tyrant that owns the place can think of and won't pay a lawyer to tell them it's illegal
hitting hot metal with hammers
hitting hot metal with hammers
Imagine if we lived in a world where companies did not force workers to accept that their labour would be paid for in arrears
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
They're like some sort of... small and petty bourgeoisie. If only some sort of political philosopher had explored this sort of thing
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
my mom used to own a flower shop and anytime a big flower holiday hit she basically lived at the shop for the week. The schoolbus used to drop me off there instead of at home.
it's tough to, for example, convince her that workers are somehow cheated or exploited by their bosses when she has first-hand experience working twice as hard as anyone she ever hired
http://www.audioentropy.com/