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[Star Trek] Keep On Trekkin' (Lower Decks stuff in SPOILERS)

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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    I do wonder, though, whether they'd have positive speculative fiction about, like, "What if the Borg...but good?" or similar.

    sure, if you want to get your teeth knocked out by Sisco...

    One of the rare interesting ideas Voyager had was the Borg who were split from the Collective and made their own Collective. Except it wasn't really a Collective, because they were all individuals and could dip in and out the link at will while also being able to use it to help others and be helped themselves.

    I could definitely see the Federation looking at something like that with interest. Anybody connected can share or keep whatever they want and even heal each other, but over an FTL link that is very difficult to block. And if you don't want the link, you don't have it put in.

    It would be the polar opposite of the Borg use of the tech where it serves as nothing but a way to turn bodies and minds into meat puppets and processors, respectively. It would certainly make a head-scratcher for the Collective to roll up on the Federation en masse and suddenly all the drones who come in contact with citizens start joining up with the Federation of their own newfound free will. Not even fighting, just sort of walking off the job like it's a union strike.

  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Jake Sisko was an author and in the Visitor is the author of the book Anslem. Its supposed to be very good, but part of it is written under the influence of Energy being that feeds on creativity. As you do.

    Its always been my headcanon that Jake is successful author after the series ends. And that Tom Paris settles down and becomes a Holo-novel Author.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Also, "science experiment gets out of hand" and "colony in the middle of nowhere has bad thing happen" are kind of reoccurring themes in Star Trek. A zombie movie in the Federation probably starts with "so, this research output was studying this weird fungus...".

    so it's not so much SCi-fi as "that thing that happened last week"

    Yeah, "tiny brain bugs that mind controlled Star Fleet" isn't fiction, it's a documentary in Trek.

    What does Science Fiction look like when you're living in science fiction? Is it all cheesy Captain Proton recreations stuff?

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Jake Sisko was an author and in the Visitor is the author of the book Anslem. Its supposed to be very good, but part of it is written under the influence of Energy being that feeds on creativity. As you do.

    Its always been my headcanon that Jake is successful author after the series ends. And that Tom Paris settles down and becomes a Holo-novel Author.

    Well there was also that alternate future episode where Jake is a successful author, i don't think the change in the timeline affects that outcome.

    As for Tom... I think he took up grounds keeping at the Academy after retiring (my head canon)

  • TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    I do wonder, though, whether they'd have positive speculative fiction about, like, "What if the Borg...but good?" or similar.

    sure, if you want to get your teeth knocked out by Sisco...

    One of the rare interesting ideas Voyager had was the Borg who were split from the Collective and made their own Collective. Except it wasn't really a Collective, because they were all individuals and could dip in and out the link at will while also being able to use it to help others and be helped themselves.

    I could definitely see the Federation looking at something like that with interest. Anybody connected can share or keep whatever they want and even heal each other, but over an FTL link that is very difficult to block. And if you don't want the link, you don't have it put in.

    It would be the polar opposite of the Borg use of the tech where it serves as nothing but a way to turn bodies and minds into meat puppets and processors, respectively. It would certainly make a head-scratcher for the Collective to roll up on the Federation en masse and suddenly all the drones who come in contact with citizens start joining up with the Federation of their own newfound free will. Not even fighting, just sort of walking off the job like it's a union strike.

    That's going to be where the Borg come from, with it being a lot harder to keep your own thoughts separate from the hive the smaller a component you are of it. Or you find that you spend less time in your own head and more time in the collective conciousness experiencing more than you would otherwise do in a thousand life times - occasionally just pressing continue when the Matrix pauses, to let the collective use your drone body for something it needed to do.

    DanHibiki
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    There's also an aspect in zombie fiction about the fantasy of society collapsing, as opposed to just the fear of it. I imagine people could still key into that in the safety of the Federation, perhaps even more so because of the omnipresence of that safety.

    Auralynxoverride367JacobkoshNightslyr
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Nah, the point of that redesigned link is that you're only involved up to the point that you want to be. People, singular or collective, can't force their way in to make you do things. The Betazoid are full telepathy and they have zero problems with the collective will forcing the hand of individuals, even though their rules are simply cultural rather than hardwired. Similarly, the Vulcan are not at all consumed by a species group mind despite also possessing telepathy. It's thoroughly established in Star Trek that mind to mind connections do NOT inevitably result in individuals being completely lost to the species gestalt mind.

    Further, the Borg definitely have something way more fucked going on in terms of philosophy. It's a semi organic entity with an overriding programmed directive. Assimilation isn't what the Collective wants, it's what the Collective HAS to do. It's a compulsion, a built-in overriding order for the Collective. Otherwise, the Collective would have long ago abandoned that drive due simply to assimilating people who don't want "vote" that way. The Borg didn't develop from a benign society, they were clearly and intentionally warped by something else.

  • ReynoldsReynolds Gone Fishin'Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Jake Sisko was an author and in the Visitor is the author of the book Anslem. Its supposed to be very good, but part of it is written under the influence of Energy being that feeds on creativity. As you do.

    Its always been my headcanon that Jake is successful author after the series ends. And that Tom Paris settles down and becomes a Holo-novel Author.

    Well there was also that alternate future episode where Jake is a successful author, i don't think the change in the timeline affects that outcome.

    As for Tom... I think he took up grounds keeping at the Academy after retiring (my head canon)

    It's the same book in both instances, I remember catching this on my recent rewatch.

    uyvfOQy.png
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    Nah, the point of that redesigned link is that you're only involved up to the point that you want to be. People, singular or collective, can't force their way in to make you do things. The Betazoid are full telepathy and they have zero problems with the collective will forcing the hand of individuals, even though their rules are simply cultural rather than hardwired. Similarly, the Vulcan are not at all consumed by a species group mind despite also possessing telepathy. It's thoroughly established in Star Trek that mind to mind connections do NOT inevitably result in individuals being completely lost to the species gestalt mind.

    Further, the Borg definitely have something way more fucked going on in terms of philosophy. It's a semi organic entity with an overriding programmed directive. Assimilation isn't what the Collective wants, it's what the Collective HAS to do. It's a compulsion, a built-in overriding order for the Collective. Otherwise, the Collective would have long ago abandoned that drive due simply to assimilating people who don't want "vote" that way. The Borg didn't develop from a benign society, they were clearly and intentionally warped by something else.

    The Federation has outlawed all transhumanism though, they don't do cybernetic implants beyond correcting medical handicap.

    The only instance to the contrary I remember is a hacker woman Odo had a brief affair with on DS9 who had some kind of datajack / cyberbrain implant, but IIRC she lived outside the law, etc. etc.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Ah, that's a good point, though the likes of Geordi is a clear indicator that the Federation doesn't have an iron-clad ruling on the topic, at least where it relates to cybernetics or prosthetics. I agree that they probably would never allow that link as a permanent device to surgically install, though. The tech does sound dangerously close to trying to upgrade humans permanently instead of letting them develop naturally.

    But like I said, I could see the Federation at least being interested in the tech, even if they don't allow it as a permanent enhancement. People being able to, say, pop on something at home to help out the injured or work on research I could see them doing for sure. Sort of like a VR headset or something.

  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    The Federation: Fixing genetic defects bad! They could become superhuman and try to take over the galaxy!

    Also The Federation: Your eyes don't work so here is a tech thing that is absolutely superior to real eyes. Oh and later on you can get artificial eyes that are still superior in every way.

    I was killing Thresher Maws on foot before I knew it was a Krogan rite of passage.
    Happy Little Machine
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    The Federation allows genetic alterations to correct defects, just not to improve upon people

    which is splitting hairs, culture's got the right idea, gimme a buncha drug glands so I can slow time and rewatch the entire lotr trilogy in my head in perfect accuracy in 20 minutes

    override367 on
    CambiataWinkyCasualautono-wally, erotibot300ShadowenNightslyrHappy Little Machine
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I can't remember the Federation frowning on fixing actual genetic defects, just tooling with genetics in ways to boost people beyond the current development of humanity.

    If I remember right, Geordi was a very rare edge case it was an outright physical problem, not just a genetic issue. As opposed to Julian, whose asshole parents decided for him that he wasn't smart enough and thus needed a reshuffling of the genetic cards. For all they knew, they could've made someone to deal a hundred times the atrocities of Khan, or destroyed the most artistic mind in centuries.

    As a molecular biologist, I completely agree with the Federation policy of not fucking around with germline human genetics. The potential for damage is virtually infinite.

  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    All this tells me is that we need a crossover story featuring Steve Rogers vs Khan.

  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    Have you heard who is back in season 2 of Picard? Watch this.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It is best to not try and pull any sort of coherent philosophy on transhumanism from Star Trek because there isn't one.

    Honestly I think DS9's entire idea to address the issue was silly. Both for Bashir's character and for the setting in general. It left more weird questions hanging then it resolved.

    mrondeauDoodmannCptHamiltonLanlaornDonnictonCasualJacobkoshNightslyrDark_Side
  • ComahawkComahawk Registered User regular
    Having a series that explores the eugenics wars would be very interesting I think. It always seemed like a good story hook that was underutilized. My favourite episodes of Enterprise were the augment ones.

  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Also, "science experiment gets out of hand" and "colony in the middle of nowhere has bad thing happen" are kind of reoccurring themes in Star Trek. A zombie movie in the Federation probably starts with "so, this research output was studying this weird fungus...".

    so it's not so much SCi-fi as "that thing that happened last week"

    Yeah, "tiny brain bugs that mind controlled Star Fleet" isn't fiction, it's a documentary in Trek.

    What does Science Fiction look like when you're living in science fiction? Is it all cheesy Captain Proton recreations stuff?

    I mean, we're currently living in science fiction for a former period. We had to update our Star Treks because modern technology made the older series look pretty antiquated. It's not hard to imagine "Black Mirror, but in the 24th century".

    Sci-Fi is generally more about the culture from which it arises than it is about the specific sciences being imagined. What do people (not just Star Fleet members) of the 24th century fear? What do they hope for? What aspects of their daily lives irritate them, stress them out, worry them? I don't think we ever get a good enough look at the life of ordinary people in the Federation to really predict what their sci-fi would look like.

    But I bet "Trapped in the Holodeck" is a popular subgenre. And probably tons of stuff about AIs, both positive and negative.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
    Commander ZoomMancingtomNightslyr
  • KrathoonKrathoon Registered User regular
    For Star Trek to really work, it has to have a feeling of danger to it. Space has to be wonderous and horrifying. That was a core element way back to the original series. You always had red shirts dying.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Krathoon wrote: »
    For Star Trek to really work, it has to have a feeling of danger to it. Space has to be wonderous and horrifying. That was a core element way back to the original series. You always had red shirts dying.

    also the subject of one of my very favorite speeches from Q, using almost those exact words.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    Krathoon wrote: »
    For Star Trek to really work, it has to have a feeling of danger to it. Space has to be wonderous and horrifying. That was a core element way back to the original series. You always had red shirts dying.

    also the subject of one of my very favorite speeches from Q, using almost those exact words.

    One of my favorite, too. As often as the show demonstrates that this is Q's true nature, it's all too rare that the writers let him drop the imp routine and give Picard back in kind.

    Hevach on
    Commander ZoomNightslyroverride367Happy Little MachineMatev
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    shryke wrote: »
    It is best to not try and pull any sort of coherent philosophy on transhumanism from Star Trek because there isn't one.

    Honestly I think DS9's entire idea to address the issue was silly. Both for Bashir's character and for the setting in general. It left more weird questions hanging then it resolved.

    Yeah, this is something that's bothered me about The Discourse around Star Trek for a long time.

    The nerd religion of transhumanism didn't exist in the 1960s. TOS was against eugenics, because it was written and made by, and starred, a bunch of people who had been shot at by eugenicists.

    TNG did an episode about a planned society where Picard's objection wasn't some kind of biological puritanism but the idea that a society would dictate a person's future from birth; giving you twenty fingers and telling you YOU WILL BE A CONCERT PIANIST or whatever. It's about the way that purpose-breeding people to task eradicates their autonomy. TNG also had a difficult tightrope to walk because it wanted to have some disability representation but disabilities kind of inherently clash with science fiction, and the producers made the choice to err on the side of hopefully not offending actual blind people by having a character who reps blindness, and who is put at a disadvantage by that in certain circumstances, but has the option to correct the blindness but chooses not to for fairly vague identity reasons and who is able to function in the story without it being an issue 90% of the time. People can agree or disagree with that choice - me, as a visually impaired person, I would take prosthetics/surgery/etc in a heartbeat and I don't see myself as being on Team Blind, but I also recognize that for other people their disability is their culture and it's very important to them - but ultimately it's down to a complicated mix of real-world factors.

    The nature of sci-fi plotting for an hour long adventure series also means that you're going to get stories about experiments gone wrong, mad scientists filled with hubris, etc etc. Furthermore, it's a TV show starring actual human beings who aren't half-robot or sentient clouds of alien spores or whatever, because that is the reality of how TV is made. Someone who does nothing but reads transhumanist sci-fi could decide to make a federal case about that and be like WOW I GUESS STAR TREK HATES PROGRESS or whatever but I kind of think that's dumb tbh.

    It was DS9 that decided to make this a whole thing and I agree, it was a mistake and it's not really clear what end it served. I was always perfectly happy thinking that Star Trek had lots of cyborgs and people who'd had genetic alterations and whatnot - just offscreen, the way we know there are cat aliens but we'll only ever see them in live-action in the background of movie shots because realistic cat aliens aren't feasible on a TV budget.

    rRwz9.gif
    Commander ZoomNightslyrhlprmnky
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    Krathoon wrote: »
    For Star Trek to really work, it has to have a feeling of danger to it. Space has to be wonderous and horrifying. That was a core element way back to the original series. You always had red shirts dying.

    also the subject of one of my very favorite speeches from Q, using almost those exact words.

    One of the best moments of the Abrams movie was McCoy's speech about space being "disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence." It was a great, iconic McCoy line and sentiment. Of course, neither it nor the second movie ever actually reflected that sentiment since it turned out space is mostly Romulans wrapped in CGI and Dolby loudness, but, oh well, it was a good thought.

    rRwz9.gif
    autono-wally, erotibot300shrykeCommander ZoomReynoldsAbsoluteZeroDoodmannDonnictonSnicketysnickNightslyroverride367hlprmnkyMsAnthropy
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    It's an easy choice in our world to say you'd take the prosthetic. But Geordi's already got a solution that lets him see, which he's lived with his entire life.

    A better analogy might be lasik vs. glasses for somebody who always had glasses but only recently became a candidate for lasik because of newer advancements (or was already an adult when it became available to begin with). They now have a "superior" solution that will let them "look normal" but it's not going to give them better vision than the face attachment. They've lived with the downsides of glasses for a lifetime and internalized all the little routines involved with them - it might just be as much a matter of not wanting to adapt their routine more than feeling like they're changing their identity, people in Star Trek definitely have shown the "too old to change" attitude plenty of other times, both large and petty.

    Hevach on
    JacobkoshNightslyr
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    TNG also had a difficult tightrope to walk because it wanted to have some disability representation but disabilities kind of inherently clash with science fiction, and the producers made the choice to err on the side of hopefully not offending actual blind people by having a character who reps blindness, and who is put at a disadvantage by that in certain circumstances, but has the option to correct the blindness but chooses not to for fairly vague identity reasons and who is able to function in the story without it being an issue 90% of the time. People can agree or disagree with that choice - me, as a visually impaired person, I would take prosthetics/surgery/etc in a heartbeat and I don't see myself as being on Team Blind, but I also recognize that for other people their disability is their culture and it's very important to them - but ultimately it's down to a complicated mix of real-world factors.

    I pity anyone trying to deal with this aspect of sci-fi. On TV, in a movie, in a book. You can imagine a ton of ways to deal with this or that thing in the modern world with futuristic technology in a way that would solve whatever problems exist or you think exist. And I can't imagine any of them not generating someone somewhere screaming at you on social media about how you are the worst and erasing "x group" or something. You are trying to navigate a public relations morass as much if not more then you are trying to write a sci-fi TV show.

    I can't imagine anyone looking at something like, say, the politics around cochlear implants and not thinking:

    when it comes to a lot of this stuff.

    JacobkoshNightslyr
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    would have been neat if they did a small eugenics arms race, like Romulans and Cardassian finding out that Federation keeps a think tank of Augmented humans around they'll want to make their own and the ensuing horror show that failed experiments that assholes with no morals would create.

    Klingons would probably the only ones, other than Federation, to hold out on modifying their soldiers.

    DanHibiki on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited April 13
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Commander Zoom on
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    Doodmann
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    JacobkoshStrikorCambiataautono-wally, erotibot300honovereNightslyr
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Krathoon wrote: »
    For Star Trek to really work, it has to have a feeling of danger to it. Space has to be wonderous and horrifying. That was a core element way back to the original series. You always had red shirts dying.

    also the subject of one of my very favorite speeches from Q, using almost those exact words.

    One of the best moments of the Abrams movie was McCoy's speech about space being "disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence." It was a great, iconic McCoy line and sentiment. Of course, neither it nor the second movie ever actually reflected that sentiment since it turned out space is mostly Romulans wrapped in CGI and Dolby loudness, but, oh well, it was a good thought.

    Pike's speech to Kirk in the bar is still one of my favourite things from any of the movies. Beyond just the fantastic cast there's some gems buried in those messy stupid movies.

    Commander ZoomJacobkoshMancingtomAuralynxCambiataAbsoluteZeroShadowenNightslyr
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    TNG also had a difficult tightrope to walk because it wanted to have some disability representation but disabilities kind of inherently clash with science fiction, and the producers made the choice to err on the side of hopefully not offending actual blind people by having a character who reps blindness, and who is put at a disadvantage by that in certain circumstances, but has the option to correct the blindness but chooses not to for fairly vague identity reasons and who is able to function in the story without it being an issue 90% of the time. People can agree or disagree with that choice - me, as a visually impaired person, I would take prosthetics/surgery/etc in a heartbeat and I don't see myself as being on Team Blind, but I also recognize that for other people their disability is their culture and it's very important to them - but ultimately it's down to a complicated mix of real-world factors.

    I pity anyone trying to deal with this aspect of sci-fi. On TV, in a movie, in a book. You can imagine a ton of ways to deal with this or that thing in the modern world with futuristic technology in a way that would solve whatever problems exist or you think exist. And I can't imagine any of them not generating someone somewhere screaming at you on social media about how you are the worst and erasing "x group" or something. You are trying to navigate a public relations morass as much if not more then you are trying to write a sci-fi TV show.

    I can't imagine anyone looking at something like, say, the politics around cochlear implants and not thinking:
    when it comes to a lot of this stuff.

    Not to derail the thread, as someone who will live his entire life with hearing aids, I've always found the "cultural genocide" or "child abuse" argument to be particularly infuriating, if only for the complete lack of empathy or nuance in the use of such an egregious analogy. But also because of how much implied selfishness very quickly becomes readily apparent every time that argument has been raised to me.

    Agreed that from a Trek context, the argument was clearly against eugenics rather than, say, addressing a genetic disease that will kill you before you reach the age of 5.

    Nightslyr
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    "What was the best old Trek movie?"
    "Everyone says 'Wrath of Khan'."
    "Okay, let's just copy that."

    over and over and over. Into Darkness was just the most blatant about it.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    JacobkoshCambiataCasualNightslyroverride367
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    "What was the best old Trek movie?"
    "Everyone says 'Wrath of Khan'."
    "Okay, let's just copy that."

    over and over and over. Into Darkness was just the most blatant about it.

    ironically TMP and the one with the whales were a lot more successful.

    DanHibiki on
    JacobkoshNightslyroverride367
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    would have been neat if they did a small eugenics arms race, like Romulans and Cardassian finding out that Federation keeps a think tank of Augmented humans around they'll want to make their own and the ensuing horror show that failed experiments that assholes with no morals would create.

    Klingons would probably the only ones, other than Federation, to hold out on modifying their soldiers.

    I mean the jem hadar were basically genetically engineered super soldiers

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    Reynolds
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    They should have done the entirety of Abrams Trek with Pike in command and Kirk leading away team type stuff, and then towards the end of movie #2 had Kirk start taking over. Then 3 could be basically what Beyond was. First, that Pike was good, as good possibly as Anson Mounts. Second, it would have felt like a much more natural progression than "cadet is now in charge of the ship for good".

    MancingtomStrikorJacobkoshUndead ScottsmanshrykeKetarDonnictonhonovereCasualSnicketysnickNightslyrCaedwyroverride367MsAnthropy
  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    "What was the best old Trek movie?"
    "Everyone says 'Wrath of Khan'."
    "Okay, let's just copy that."

    over and over and over. Into Darkness was just the most blatant about it.

    ironically TMP and the one with the whales were a lot more successful.

    It is still all about the whales nowadays, but perhaps not in quite the same way.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    "What was the best old Trek movie?"
    "Everyone says 'Wrath of Khan'."
    "Okay, let's just copy that."

    over and over and over. Into Darkness was just the most blatant about it.

    ironically TMP and the one with the whales were a lot more successful.

    Every franchise has an evolution of episode ranks. When I was young it was generally accepted that Empire Strikes Back was the weakest of the original trilogy and Return of the Jedi was the best. And box office would seem to agree.

    I don't think I've heard anyone rank Empire at the bottom or Jedi at the top since the late 90's at least, they're generally the other way around now. Just getting some distance from the release changes a lot, some things don't age well, the spectacle aspect fades from memory fastest. In the case of Empire, it was a tragedy with a planned sequel so a lot of context to it comes from a movie you wouldn't get to see another couple years.

    I don't know when Khan rose to the top, but it was about the time the convention circuit polling said First Contact was definitely the worst Trek movie ever and Generations was second best.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    I have seen Star Trek Nemesis.

    I didn't think it was atrocious, but it was definitely not awesome. I liked the wedding at the start, B-4 seemed really weirdly superfluous. The villain was very weird.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    I have seen Star Trek Nemesis.

    I didn't think it was atrocious, but it was definitely not awesome. I liked the wedding at the start, B-4 seemed really weirdly superfluous. The villain was very weird.
    It was frickin' Tom Hardy cosplaying as evil Picard. Yeah, it was weird.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    Like most of the Star Trek movies I've seen, it started out pretty strong and then kind of collapsed at the end. The meeting in the darkened room was cool, Picard having dinner with Shinzon was cool. Deanna getting mentally sexually assaulted was very not cool, but her revenge bit of sensing the enemy ship and firing while they were cloaked was neat. Once Shinzon started getting giant bulging veins and shouting a lot more it really collapsed.

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  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    edited April 14
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    As I might have said earlier in the thread:
    One thing that's shown up in the so-called beta canon/EU, expanding on what we've actually seen and heard of on screen, is that apparently everyone tries fucking around with their genome at some point and it never ever ends well.
    Whether you agree that this is reasonable, realistic, etc, it's one of those assumptions that's just baked into the setting. "YOU NO AM PLAY GODS" might as well be universal law.

    Just as long as it's not "Angry man want revenge" aka every star trek movie plot after Insurrection.

    "What was the best old Trek movie?"
    "Everyone says 'Wrath of Khan'."
    "Okay, let's just copy that."

    over and over and over. Into Darkness was just the most blatant about it.

    You left out the most important bit. You gotta copy Wrath of Khan while completely missing the point of every scene you copy.

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