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(* The overhead sword slash seems buggy...most of the time I get the body hitzone of the training dummy even when unambiguously hitting the head. I think it might pick its hitzone at the wrong part of the animation or something.)
Element Discharge -- 108 over 9 hits, plus 100 (ignores physical hitzones)
Element Discharge Early Release -- 50 (ignores physical hitzones)
Zero Sum Discharge -- 194 over 13 hits, plus 90 (ignores physical hitzones)
Zero Sum Discharge Early Release -- 40 (ignores physical hitzones)
Compressed Discharge -- 14 + 14 + 14 + 50 (ignores physical hitzones) + 80
Some notes on the ins and outs of how the different phials and phial explosions work:
PHIALS
-Phial bursts are affected by raw and sharpness, but not affinity. As a ballpark estimate, I'd say that affinity affects Switch Axe's overall amped physical DPS at approximately 75% efficiency, depending on which attacks you're doing. Still pretty good, but maybe prioritize Attack 7 over Weakness Exploit.
-Amped phial bursts respect physical hitzones, but larger bursts do not.
-Phial bursts include your elemental damage as well. All of them respect element hitzone, but large bursts get an elemental damage multiplier (probably around 1.5-3x, varying by type; elemental damage is a royal pain to calculate due to how much rounding happens).
-All phial bursts get all the bonuses associated with your phial type, even amped phial bursts in axe mode.
-The Artillery skill does not apply to any type of phial burst.
Phial types:
-Power – 15% higher physical damage from swords and phial bursts. Amped state takes 30 sword X hits to charge.
-Element – Applies listed elemental damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Sword attacks and phial bursts do around 50-60% more elemental damage (hard to determine exactly). Amped state takes 14 sword X hits to charge.
-Paralyze – Applies listed status damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Same odds of application as normal (~1/3). Amped state takes 20 sword X hits to charge.
-Poison – Applies listed status damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Same odds of application as normal (~1/3). Amped state takes 10 sword X hits to charge.
-Exhaust – Applies listed exhaust damage on sword attacks and phial bursts. Applies on every hit, not just a third. Can KO when applying to head. Amped state takes 14 X hits to charge.
-Dragon Phial – Applies listed dragon damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Amped state takes 10 sword X hits to charge.
Maximum Potency (from performing the Overhead Slam out of a 3+ length Wild Swing) increases the amped charge rate by about 20% (i.e. Power Phial will get amped in 26 X attacks instead of 30). Not as strong an effect as I thought.
Overall, I would say that Paralyze, Poison, and Dragon phials aren't of much use, because they don't apply to axe hits. If you can get a weapon with Element phial which just has a similar amount of status or dragon damage on it normally it's strictly better. Exhaust at least does something unique; I haven't tested it in real hunts yet. Power improves your sword damage more than Element does, but the boost is smaller than the amped state is, and it takes twice as long for Power to hit the amped state, which hurts your uptime a lot. There's not much difference between them if you're doing amped axe attacks.
Here's where I totally lost my marbles and started calculating the approximate DPS of every infinite combo you can do. I don't have any video capture software or anything, so I just timed myself with a stopwatch while I repeated the combo a large number of times, then divided the total time by the number of iterations to dilute the imprecision at the start and finish. Not perfect, but it should give a general idea. Results are represented in mvps (motion value per second) and ehps (elemental hits per second), and don't include the bonuses from either power or element phials.
The fastest way to get your amped state charged up. Pretty high-commitment, though. There's no reason to continue to do this once you're amped; it's too slow to do competitive damage.
Sword – Fast Double Slash – A-X (~2.9 second loop)
Status Phial: 33 mvps, 1.03 ehps
____Amped: 43.4 mvps, 2.07 ehps
The all-rounder for sword combos. Pretty good damage, pretty good amp charge, not super high-commitment. Amped X-X-X is a little weaker but also a little safer and hits higher up. Amped X-X-X-A for the triple slash is about equal for physical damage and a little higher for elemental, but it takes a lot longer to do and is less energy-efficient.
This move is extremely low-commitment. It's the lowest-commitment move for the weapon, and it's probably a contender for one of the lowest-commitment moves in the game period. You can dodge out of it the instant the hitbox on the first swing becomes active or at absolutely any point afterwards, no matter where you are in subsequent swing animations. It's great. The damage is pretty respectable when amped when you consider how safe it is. The followups on X and R are nothing special; they might have some merit as finishers or as links to sword mode if you decide to transition into a higher-commitment combo due to a flinch or something, but it's not worth going out of your way to force them into a combo. Mostly you squeeze these hits in during small openings and then dodge out at the last second.
It's not super competitive DPS-wise, but you're gonna use it sometimes when you need to reach something high up, so it's worth keeping in mind.
Hybrid – Morph Combo - (Sword) A-R-R (~4.5 second loop)
Amped Status Phial: 57.9 mvps, 2.22 ehps
Amped Power Phial: 62.9 mvps, 2.22 ehps
Amped Element Phial: 57.9 mvps, 3.11 ehps
If you have Rapid Morph in your build—and you should—this is your strongest infinite combo, no matter what your phial is. Around half of the damage comes from the axe morph, which is somewhat of an equalizer when it comes to phial type. I've tried more elaborate morph combos but they don't quite manage to win out.
i think i've mostly hunted what i'm going to hunt until the next update. a strange feeling, i've never really gotten here before.
i might get parts to tweak my builds a little to hit the meta, but mostly i've just been equipping whatever weapon i feel like and hitting random for a while.
if you haven't hit random, or didn't know about it, i would recommend it. it's fun! you could get SOS'd into anything!
i think i've mostly hunted what i'm going to hunt until the next update. a strange feeling, i've never really gotten here before.
i might get parts to tweak my builds a little to hit the meta, but mostly i've just been equipping whatever weapon i feel like and hitting random for a while.
if you haven't hit random, or didn't know about it, i would recommend it. it's fun! you could get SOS'd into anything!
i've still got decos to make, but short of doing a new weapon i think i'm good on gear, yeah
I've joined the bandwagon and swapped to the Anjanath bow over the Rath bow, and holy shit does this thing live up to the hype.
It hits so fucking hard, even vs monsters with no/small fire weakness (68 damage per arrow on Zinogre's head, wtf), plus it has the extra level 2 slot for another stamina management skill.
Highly recommended, if you only craft one bow in the game, make it the Anjanath bow.
What skills are you using with it? Brutal shot build or did you go with a normal crit build?
I've joined the bandwagon and swapped to the Anjanath bow over the Rath bow, and holy shit does this thing live up to the hype.
It hits so fucking hard, even vs monsters with no/small fire weakness (68 damage per arrow on Zinogre's head, wtf), plus it has the extra level 2 slot for another stamina management skill.
Highly recommended, if you only craft one bow in the game, make it the Anjanath bow.
What skills are you using with it? Brutal shot build or did you go with a normal crit build?
Just my standard rapid bow build with normal/rapid 3, WEX 3, con/stam surge to comfort (you have the slots to run either 4/2 or 3/3, haven't decided what I like more), and Fire Attack 5. Mighty bow feather, zinogre chest, vaik gloves, spio/skalda waist, rakna legs, charm is normal/rapid 1 with a 3 + 1 slot (can do the same thing with Tetranadon chest and a WEX charm instead).
The WEX is mostly just value since it's fairly easy to always be hitting the head/weakpoint with a rapid bow, and I'm pretty sure that having a 30% crit rate plus Fire Boost 3 is better than brutal strike. Of course, now I'm curious what the calcs look like for dropping WEX completely and going all in on attack boost + brutal strike. I don't think it wins out, especially vs fire weak matchups, but I'll math/test that out later. Maybe if you have a good attack boost charm with slots to let you hit AB7 with tetra chest + anja waist?
Ok, I went a bit deep in the weeds for this, but I was curious. According to this thread, Brutal Strike gives a 25% chance for your negative crits to deal double the damage they would normally do (so a 1.5 modifier instead of a .75 modifier).
Anja Bow (240) with power charm + power talon and Demon Petalace 3 has 275 raw attack (240 + 6 + 9 + 20). Attack Boost 7 bumps that up to an even 300 ((240 x 1.1) + 10 + 6 + 9 + 20). With Fire Attack 5 it has a fire ele of 15 (9 x 1.2 + 4), and has the option to take Fire Boost 3 for an extra 9 ele. From there we can figure out our effective raw with both WEX 3 + Fire Boost 3 ramp up and AB7 + Brutal Strike ramp up, like so:
WEX 3, Fire Boost 3 = (275 x 0.7) + (275 x 0.3 x 1.25) = 295.625 Raw, 24 elemental
AB7, Brutal Strike = (300 x 0.8) + (300 x .75 x 0.15) + (300 x 1.5 x 0.05) = 296.25 Raw, 15 Elemental
Oof
So AB7 + Brutal Strike only gains 1 point of effective raw (maybe not even that, depending on how the game handles rounding), but looses a whole 9 element. Someone feel free to check my math, because for some fucking reason I got 305.1375 raw for the Brutal Strike build the first time around, and did a whole bunch more calculations with bow motion values and charge levels and monster hitzones to show that even if those numbers were correct and you traded in 9 ele for 10 raw, the brutal strike build only barely breaks even on raw favored matchups like Zinogre, while getting consistently outdamaged by 1-2 points per arrow everywhere else. Even if they fixed the elemental charge values completely overriding the shot type ele modifiers, the WEX build still wins.
But uh, when I went to check the math one last time while writing this post I found out that, nah, I just pulled that 305 number out of my ass somewhere? Seriously, I have no idea how I got that and can't replicate it at all. WEX is just strictly better if you are hitting weakpoints, not loosing any raw at all and getting an extra 9 ele for free.
Any thoughts on Diablos Switch axe and Bludgeoner 3? That looks tempting with the high raw.
Well, let's do the math.
Diablos with Attack 7, Bludgeoner 3:
230 * 1.05 * 1.2 + 10 = 300
Diablos then loses 3.75% damage from negative affinity, which I'm mitigating to 2.8% due to phials not critting, so let's call it 291.6.
Ore 2 with Attack 7:
210 * 1.2 * 1.1 + 10 = 287
But that's hardly fair. The Ore 2 set has three empty slots that it didn't have to spend on Bludgeoner. Let's do the laziest possible thing and put Critical Eye 3 on there for a 2.8% damage boost and call it 295.
Bludgeoner builds aren't competitive on Switch Axe. If Bludgeoner's gonna be good on anything it'll be Charge Blade, since Impact Phial explosions aren't affected by affinity or sharpness, and they can also plausibly run Offensive Guard to really take your raw to Stupid Town. I haven't had a chance to really mess with Charge Blade yet, though.
yeah brutal strike is not as good as a wex+affinity, the main value is that it's cheap as shit to run
i could not even begin to understand the interaction with something like bow, but in the case of big raw based weapons like hammer or GS my understanding is that it more or less cancels out the negative affinity, and with itemization and slots as they currently are, AB7 on high raw with effectively 0% is still fairly competitive with a loaded out crit set with lower raw, though definitely not winning. with how limited the options for wex and crit boost are atm i can get running it anyway.
so i ran longsword for a bit and honestly i'm kinda over it? i haven't had any itch to play it since i wrapped up low rank hub with it. now i'm looking at maybe gunlance and charge blade. my understanding is gunlance, like the switch axe got a nice glow up in this game, and i love the animation on the full burst combo, so that's pretty appealing. meanwhile the charge blade is a weapon i really dig on papaer but bounced off when i tried to pick it up in world since it seemed a little too flow chart focused. based on what i heard there might be more flexibility on that now, with load shells reducing the need to charge up to red phials, and SAED apparently doesn't eat shield charge or something now?
on the other hand, i've also heard it's kind of a mixed bag, with a lot of people who played it in world not loving it as much in rise so i dunno
+1
BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Does brutal work with crit element?
I guess, what is the MV per arrow of a typical bow hit, vs the flat damage of elemental (is it divided among arrows per attack?). It might be better ignoring affinity entirely and going hard on element and defensive/utility skills.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
so i ran longsword for a bit and honestly i'm kinda over it? i haven't had any itch to play it since i wrapped up low rank hub with it. now i'm looking at maybe gunlance and charge blade. my understanding is gunlance, like the switch axe got a nice glow up in this game, and i love the animation on the full burst combo, so that's pretty appealing. meanwhile the charge blade is a weapon i really dig on papaer but bounced off when i tried to pick it up in world since it seemed a little too flow chart focused. based on what i heard there might be more flexibility on that now, with load shells reducing the need to charge up to red phials, and SAED apparently doesn't eat shield charge or something now?
on the other hand, i've also heard it's kind of a mixed bag, with a lot of people who played it in world not loving it as much in rise so i dunno
SAED doesn't consume shield charge, no. Also, the counter silkbind is nice since it instantly fills your phials and you can cancel out of it into sword charge, axe mode, or SAED based on input.
I guess, what is the MV per arrow of a typical bow hit, vs the flat damage of elemental (is it divided among arrows per attack?). It might be better ignoring affinity entirely and going hard on element and defensive/utility skills.
Everything I can find says that both elemental damage isn't effected by negative critical hits, and also that crit boosting skills like crit boost/crit ele do not effect negative crits in any way, the game treats them as a completely separate event. I can't imagine that being changed for brutal strike, but I guess you would have to test to be 100% sure.
The shot type of a specific bow determines both the raw motion value of each arrow, elemental modifier of each arrow (applied to the flat ele attack), as well as the total number of arrows fired. Anjanath Bow, for example, has a shot type of Rapid 4 at charge levels 3 and 4. Rapid 4 shoots out 4 arrows, each with a raw mv of 10 and an elemental modifier of 0.8. However, each charge level also has a modifier that gets applied to the motion value (raw is 0.4 / 1.0 / 1.5 / 1.7 for each charge level, ele is 0.7 / 0.85 / 1 / 1.125, note that negative modifier on charge level 1 that makes dash dancing to build charge so desirable), and that's where things get a bit buggy in Rise. Basically, bow ele damage is ignoring the shot type modifier completely, and using just the charge level mv modifier by itself. So for the Anjanath Bow with Fire Boost 3 for 24 fire, for example, a charge level 4 shot against a 30 fire hitzone should be adding 6.48 damage per arrow (24 x 0.8 x 1.125 x 0.3), but is instead adding 8.1 damage per arrow (24 x 1.125 x 0.3). It is possible to probable that this gets fixed in an upcoming patch, so ele bows should be loosing 1-2 damage per arrow, possible more for higher ele values. Not really a big deal, but good to keep in mind.
As for raw/affinity vs elemental, I think this thread has a pretty good overview. Basically, the charge level modifiers for raw damage are bonkers (1.5 to 1.7 in charge levels 3 and 4, which you should be at most of the time), and WEX scales raw better than attack boost with the limited slots that Bow currently has available.
I was just wondering how competitive the Diablos SA was as it's the only one with Exhaust and Exhaust is freaking good. Thanks for the math.
Ore 2, the Switch Axe line I was using as a blue-sharpness comparison, is also Exhaust. In fact it's Exhaust 30, which is way higher than Diablos. I think there was a third Exhaust SA too, but it's also worse than Ore 2, so Conqueress is the way to go if that's the phial you want to play around with.
Thankfully I was still able to get the carve in time, but it was close.
Incidentally I was doing that to test how I feel about helm breaker vs sakura slash when playing solo, and I think I actually prefer sakura slash. The damage potential is significantly lower, since helm breaker's damage is just stupid with a red gauge, but not having to care about gauge color at all just makes life infinitely easier. That being said, I am relatively new to longsword still, so maybe I'm just not good enough yet at finding opportunities to do the full spirit combo or hit the iai counter.
I crafted a x4 Spread Rampage Bow with Fire Element earlier, to help specifically with Almudron hunts. I haven't found them difficult with other Bows, necessarily, just frustrating: it's a big target but it writhes around so quickly that it's challenging to keep a bead on his head / face at times. I'm constantly finding myself on the opposite side to where I need to be, or that it's tail is actively blocking my Rapid shots. I tried swapping over to Pierce Bows, to blast through the tail or the backside when necessary and into the weak spots, but it's such a slender monster that a lot of the overall damage from Pierce tends to go to waste unless I'm hitting him straight on.
And if I'm able to hit him straight on, shit, I don't need the Pierce, lol.
The Spread Bow has been awesome, though; gotta get in there pretty close, but then you just broadside the motherfucker over and over. Even when he's thrashing around and jumping all over the place, I can't hardly miss him. Not every shot goes into its weak points, obviously, but it feels so much better than the other weapons I've hunted him with.
Thankfully I was still able to get the carve in time, but it was close.
Incidentally I was doing that to test how I feel about helm breaker vs sakura slash when playing solo, and I think I actually prefer sakura slash. The damage potential is significantly lower, since helm breaker's damage is just stupid with a red gauge, but not having to care about gauge color at all just makes life infinitely easier. That being said, I am relatively new to longsword still, so maybe I'm just not good enough yet at finding opportunities to do the full spirit combo or hit the iai counter.
I prefer Sakura slash, with the other kind of spirit comb. So I'm basically making gauge easier one way and way harder the other.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Hmmmm. I'm trying to make a general purpose dual blades set that, crucially, has evade extender.
What I mean by general purpose is one with some good base skills and a bunch of free single slots to add in the element of the day.
This brings me to my question:
The best I have is a WEX2 Charm with no slots. I can easily use Narga Waist + Deco for Evade Extender 3, or use that slot for something else and get Evade Extender 2.
Now, what I can't remember is the math on Critical Boost. Is it worth to chase it, or should I just focus on WEX3, getting at least Attack Boost 4, and taking whatever Critical Eye and Razor Sharp I can grab, or is Critical Boost rank 2 worth giving up some points in either attack boost, critical eye, razor sharp, or WEX?
It's a tough call- a lot of builds open up if I ditch Rajang Pants, but I don't know if it's worth it to drop Crit Boost 2 for something else.
Crit boost 2 is... +10% of raw on a crit, so it's worth 10%*affinity*raw.
...which, typing it out, seems really easy to beat.
Hmmm. That's the missing piece in my brain. I run WEX3 easily, so at minimum that's 50%affinity, so CB is adding like..10 raw if I'm using a weapon with 190 raw. You're right, that does seem pretty easy to beat, plus I'm not perfect and always hitting weakpoints.
Thanks for the sanity check and reminding me of the damage formula that my brain just shorted out on. I'll take a look at some of my weapon sets, but I'm pretty sure I feel comfortable dropping CB it it allows me to fit in some ranks of evade extender on dual blades specifically.
with zinogre in world with switch axe, you could throw on a mantle, weaken both front limbs and more or less dance around in front of him, maybe tossing the odd ZSD into his face. you'd get trips pretty often, when he'd enrage he'd do the multi-dive that was fairly easy to dodge and had a big punish after. about 80% of the time the tail spin would miss due to your positioning.
zinogre in rise is all kinds of fucked, his front legs are shitzones now, you either have to hit the head directly or go for hind legs. go by the hind legs, you're constantly getting harassed by tail slams and spins. his punish windows are absolutely minimal and when he does the charge up, he'll always try and get as far away as possible. the only way i can figure out to get reliable damage on him is playing hammer like a crit draw GS, only doing moving charged level 2s and 3s, evading back out and waiting outside his range for another shot. you can pile on damage during stuns and downs, but those are the only two moves you're gonna land outside of it, because he's aggressive as all hell and even things like the paw swipes have insane tracking and range.
Consequently, if you ever want to just murder the hell out of rise Zinogre, uh, I highly recommend bow with absolute power shot.
Typical hunt goes Zinogre does maybe 2-3 hip checks, pounces, or tail slams, then eventually stops to howl and charge up.
Then you just shoot him in the face until he flinches, then go for aerial aim or dash dash absolute power shot spam. After he recovers from the flinch (assuming you haven't gotten the knockdown yet), 90% of the time he will just howl again, or maybe do one paw swipe into a howl. So you just constantly loop flinches, knockdowns, and stuns by just constantly hitting him in the face and going for aerial shot whenever the flinch happens to get the quick mount (which of course leads into another knockdown and follow up flinch).
It is probably the easiest bow matchup in the entire game? Shit honestly feels completely unfair, the poor puppy makes himself into a target dummy for 75% of the fight.
Did I mention that his head is a 70 shot hitzone? It's dumb as hell
I feel like I got pretty good at killing Zinogre back in 3U, but over the years he's changed all his timings and now I'm back to embarrassing myself. I'm sure I'll get it back eventually while I'm farming for jaspers.
I had a fun moment the other day where I was getting absolutely murdered by Rajang and couldn't figure out why. Like, I farmed him a bunch early for attack decos and his armor set and found it fairly easy, but then I went back to get the parts I need for the Rajang charge blade and turned into a potion chugging moron, carting multiple times per hunt.
Eventually figured out that since I had updated my bow set to drop Evade Extender 1, the way I was trying to dodge certain moves while staying in my normal "right in front of his face and shoot the head" position didn't actually work anymore, or at least had much stricter timing.
Put EE1 back on and, yep, suddenly could magically avoid all his attacks again... only my muscle memory for aiming out of a sidestep was completely fucked and I kept whiffing shots, good times, good times. Also had a few fun moments where I misjudged how far my charging sidestep would take me and I dash dashed into his beam, those were some embarrassing carts.
Posts
For starters, here are the motion values:
Forward Slash -- 19
Forward Overhead Slash -- 56
Overhead Slash -- 50
Side Slash -- 23
Rising Slash -- 32
Wild Swing -- 22
Overhead Slam -- 15 + 55
Wide Sweep -- 25 + 30 + 40
Fade Slash -- 40
Morph Slash -- 23
Morph Double Slash -- 30 + 60
SWORD
Overhead Slash (X) -- 32*
Right Rising Slash (XX) -- 25
Left Rising Slash (XXX) -- 25
Double Slash (A) -- 28 + 36
Triple Slash (XXXA) -- 20 + 28 + 36
Heavensward Flurry (AA) -- 30 + 38
Morph Slash -- 32*
Rising Double Slash -- 25 + 30
(* The overhead sword slash seems buggy...most of the time I get the body hitzone of the training dummy even when unambiguously hitting the head. I think it might pick its hitzone at the wrong part of the animation or something.)
Element Discharge -- 108 over 9 hits, plus 100 (ignores physical hitzones)
Element Discharge Early Release -- 50 (ignores physical hitzones)
Zero Sum Discharge -- 194 over 13 hits, plus 90 (ignores physical hitzones)
Zero Sum Discharge Early Release -- 40 (ignores physical hitzones)
Compressed Discharge -- 14 + 14 + 14 + 50 (ignores physical hitzones) + 80
OTHER
Amped Phial Burst -- 10
Invincible Gambit -- 40 + 32 + 60
Soaring Wyvern Blade -- 30 (rising) + 33 (falling) + 70 (ignores physical hitzones)
Some notes on the ins and outs of how the different phials and phial explosions work:
-Phial bursts are affected by raw and sharpness, but not affinity. As a ballpark estimate, I'd say that affinity affects Switch Axe's overall amped physical DPS at approximately 75% efficiency, depending on which attacks you're doing. Still pretty good, but maybe prioritize Attack 7 over Weakness Exploit.
-Amped phial bursts respect physical hitzones, but larger bursts do not.
-Phial bursts include your elemental damage as well. All of them respect element hitzone, but large bursts get an elemental damage multiplier (probably around 1.5-3x, varying by type; elemental damage is a royal pain to calculate due to how much rounding happens).
-All phial bursts get all the bonuses associated with your phial type, even amped phial bursts in axe mode.
-The Artillery skill does not apply to any type of phial burst.
Phial types:
-Power – 15% higher physical damage from swords and phial bursts. Amped state takes 30 sword X hits to charge.
-Element – Applies listed elemental damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Sword attacks and phial bursts do around 50-60% more elemental damage (hard to determine exactly). Amped state takes 14 sword X hits to charge.
-Paralyze – Applies listed status damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Same odds of application as normal (~1/3). Amped state takes 20 sword X hits to charge.
-Poison – Applies listed status damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Same odds of application as normal (~1/3). Amped state takes 10 sword X hits to charge.
-Exhaust – Applies listed exhaust damage on sword attacks and phial bursts. Applies on every hit, not just a third. Can KO when applying to head. Amped state takes 14 X hits to charge.
-Dragon Phial – Applies listed dragon damage to sword attacks and phial bursts. Amped state takes 10 sword X hits to charge.
Maximum Potency (from performing the Overhead Slam out of a 3+ length Wild Swing) increases the amped charge rate by about 20% (i.e. Power Phial will get amped in 26 X attacks instead of 30). Not as strong an effect as I thought.
Overall, I would say that Paralyze, Poison, and Dragon phials aren't of much use, because they don't apply to axe hits. If you can get a weapon with Element phial which just has a similar amount of status or dragon damage on it normally it's strictly better. Exhaust at least does something unique; I haven't tested it in real hunts yet. Power improves your sword damage more than Element does, but the boost is smaller than the amped state is, and it takes twice as long for Power to hit the amped state, which hurts your uptime a lot. There's not much difference between them if you're doing amped axe attacks.
Here's where I totally lost my marbles and started calculating the approximate DPS of every infinite combo you can do. I don't have any video capture software or anything, so I just timed myself with a stopwatch while I repeated the combo a large number of times, then divided the total time by the number of iterations to dilute the imprecision at the start and finish. Not perfect, but it should give a general idea. Results are represented in mvps (motion value per second) and ehps (elemental hits per second), and don't include the bonuses from either power or element phials.
Sword:
Non-Amped
A-A-X-Repeat
28 + 36 → 30 + 38 → 25
~5.3 seconds
30 mvps, .94 ehps
A-X-Repeat
28 + 36 → 32
~2.9 seconds
33 mvps, 1.03 ehps
X-X-X-Repeat
32 → 25 → 25
~2.75 seconds
29.8 mvps, 1.09 ehps
X-X-X-A-Repeat
32 → 25 → 25 → 20 + 28 + 36
~5.2 seconds
31.9 mvps, 1.15 ehps
Amped
A-A-X-Repeat
28 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 30 +10 + 38 +10 → 25 + 10
~5.3 seconds
39 mvps, 1.88 ehps
A-X-Repeat
28 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 32 + 10
~2.9 seconds
43.4 mvps, 2.07 ehps
X-X-X-Repeat
32 + 10 → 25 + 10 → 25 + 10
~2.75 seconds
40.7 mvps, 2.18 ehps
X-X-X-A-Repeat
32 + 10 → 25 + 10 → 25 + 10 → 20 + 10 + 28 + 10 + 36 + 10
~5.2 seconds
43.5 mvps, 2.31 ehps
Non-Amped
X-X-X-Repeat
50 → 23 → 32
~3.85 seconds
27.3 mvps, 0.78 ehps
X-XA-Repeat (vertical combo)
50 → 32
~2.82 seconds
29.1 mvps, 0.71 ehps
Overhead Fade Combo (Forward Overhead Slash → Overhead Slash → Fade Slash → Repeat)
56 → 50 → 40
~4.9 seconds
29.7 mvps, 0.61 mvps
A-Repeat
22
~0.8 seconds per hit
27.5 mvps, 1.25 ehps
A-A-A-X-XA-Repeat
22 → 22 → 22 → 15 + 55 → 32
~5.8 seconds
29.0 mvps, 1.03 ehps
A-R-X-Repeat (Wide Sweep Combo)
22 → 25 + 30 + 40 → 32
~5.08 seconds
29.3 mvps, 0.98 ehps
Amped
X-X-X-Repeat
50 + 10 → 23 + 10 → 32 + 10
~3.85 seconds
35.1 mvps, 1.56 ehps
X-XA-Repeat (vertical combo)
50 + 10 → 32 + 10
~2.82 seconds
36.2 mvps, 1.42 ehps
A-Repeat
22 + 10
~0.8 seconds per hit
40 mvps, 2.5 ehps
A-A-A-X-XA-Repeat
22 + 10 → 22 + 10 → 22 + 10 → 15 + 10 + 55 + 10 → 32 + 10
~5.8 seconds
39.3 mvps, 2.07 ehps
A-R-X-Repeat (Wide Sweep Combo)
22 + 10 → 25 + 10 + 30 + 10 + 40 + 10 → 32 + 10
~5.08 seconds
39.2 mvps, 1.96 ehps
R-R-Repeat (Stupid Morph Combo)
38.4 + 10 → 22.8 + 10
~1.86 seconds
41.7 mvps, 2.15 ehps
(From Sword) A → R → R → Repeat (Axe Double Slash Morph Combo)
28 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 36 + 10 + 72 + 10 → 38.4 + 10
~4.5 seconds
57.87 mvps, 2.22 ehps
(From Axe) X → R → A → R → A → Repeat (Double Double Slash Morph Combo)
50 + 10 → 30 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 20 + 10 + 28 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 36 + 10 + 72 + 10 → 22 + 10
~7.65 seconds
54.6 mvps, 2.35 ehps
(From Sword) A → R → A → R → R → Repeat (Wide Sweep Morph Combo)
28 + 10 + 36 + 10 → 36 + 10 + 72 + 10 → 22 + 10 → 25 + 10 + 30 + 10 + 40 + 10 → 38.4 + 10
~8 seconds
52.2 mvps, 2.25 ehps
And that leaves me with this as a summary for the overall best combos to go for:
Sword – Max Charge - A-A-X (~5.3 second loop)
Status phial: 30 mvps, .94 ehps
____Amped: 39 mvps, 1.88 ehps
Power Phial: 34.1 mvps, .94 ehps
____Amped: 44.9 mvps, 1.88 ehps
Element Phial: 30 mvps, 1.41 ehps
_____Amped: 39 mvps, 2.82 ehps
The fastest way to get your amped state charged up. Pretty high-commitment, though. There's no reason to continue to do this once you're amped; it's too slow to do competitive damage.
Sword – Fast Double Slash – A-X (~2.9 second loop)
Status Phial: 33 mvps, 1.03 ehps
____Amped: 43.4 mvps, 2.07 ehps
Power Phial: 38.1 mvps, 1.03 ehps
____Amped: 50.0 mvps, 2.07 ehps
Element Phial: 33 mvps, 1.55 ehps
_____Amped: 43.4 mvps, 3.11 ehps
The all-rounder for sword combos. Pretty good damage, pretty good amp charge, not super high-commitment. Amped X-X-X is a little weaker but also a little safer and hits higher up. Amped X-X-X-A for the triple slash is about equal for physical damage and a little higher for elemental, but it takes a lot longer to do and is less energy-efficient.
Axe – Wild Swing – A (~0.8 seconds per hit)
Status Phial: 27.3 mvps, 0.78 ehps
____Amped: 40 mvps, 2.5 ehps
Power Phial: 27.3 mvps, 0.78 ehps
____Amped: 41.88 mvps, 2.5 ehps
Element Phial: 27.3 mvps, 0.78 ehps
Amped: 40 mvps, 3.13 ehps
This move is extremely low-commitment. It's the lowest-commitment move for the weapon, and it's probably a contender for one of the lowest-commitment moves in the game period. You can dodge out of it the instant the hitbox on the first swing becomes active or at absolutely any point afterwards, no matter where you are in subsequent swing animations. It's great. The damage is pretty respectable when amped when you consider how safe it is. The followups on X and R are nothing special; they might have some merit as finishers or as links to sword mode if you decide to transition into a higher-commitment combo due to a flinch or something, but it's not worth going out of your way to force them into a combo. Mostly you squeeze these hits in during small openings and then dodge out at the last second.
Axe – Vertical Combo – X-XA (~2.82 second loop)
Status Phial: 29.1 mvps, 0.71 ehps
____Amped: 36.2 mvps, 1.42 ehps
Power Phial: 29.1 mvps, 0.71 ehps
____Amped: 37.2 mvps, 1.42 ehps
Element Phial: 29.1 mvps, 0.71 ehps
_____Amped: 36.2 mvps, 1.77 ehps
It's not super competitive DPS-wise, but you're gonna use it sometimes when you need to reach something high up, so it's worth keeping in mind.
Hybrid – Morph Combo - (Sword) A-R-R (~4.5 second loop)
Amped Status Phial: 57.9 mvps, 2.22 ehps
Amped Power Phial: 62.9 mvps, 2.22 ehps
Amped Element Phial: 57.9 mvps, 3.11 ehps
If you have Rapid Morph in your build—and you should—this is your strongest infinite combo, no matter what your phial is. Around half of the damage comes from the axe morph, which is somewhat of an equalizer when it comes to phial type. I've tried more elaborate morph combos but they don't quite manage to win out.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
i might get parts to tweak my builds a little to hit the meta, but mostly i've just been equipping whatever weapon i feel like and hitting random for a while.
if you haven't hit random, or didn't know about it, i would recommend it. it's fun! you could get SOS'd into anything!
What skills are you using with it? Brutal shot build or did you go with a normal crit build?
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Just my standard rapid bow build with normal/rapid 3, WEX 3, con/stam surge to comfort (you have the slots to run either 4/2 or 3/3, haven't decided what I like more), and Fire Attack 5. Mighty bow feather, zinogre chest, vaik gloves, spio/skalda waist, rakna legs, charm is normal/rapid 1 with a 3 + 1 slot (can do the same thing with Tetranadon chest and a WEX charm instead).
The WEX is mostly just value since it's fairly easy to always be hitting the head/weakpoint with a rapid bow, and I'm pretty sure that having a 30% crit rate plus Fire Boost 3 is better than brutal strike. Of course, now I'm curious what the calcs look like for dropping WEX completely and going all in on attack boost + brutal strike. I don't think it wins out, especially vs fire weak matchups, but I'll math/test that out later. Maybe if you have a good attack boost charm with slots to let you hit AB7 with tetra chest + anja waist?
Anja Bow (240) with power charm + power talon and Demon Petalace 3 has 275 raw attack (240 + 6 + 9 + 20). Attack Boost 7 bumps that up to an even 300 ((240 x 1.1) + 10 + 6 + 9 + 20). With Fire Attack 5 it has a fire ele of 15 (9 x 1.2 + 4), and has the option to take Fire Boost 3 for an extra 9 ele. From there we can figure out our effective raw with both WEX 3 + Fire Boost 3 ramp up and AB7 + Brutal Strike ramp up, like so:
WEX 3, Fire Boost 3 = (275 x 0.7) + (275 x 0.3 x 1.25) = 295.625 Raw, 24 elemental
AB7, Brutal Strike = (300 x 0.8) + (300 x .75 x 0.15) + (300 x 1.5 x 0.05) = 296.25 Raw, 15 Elemental
Oof
So AB7 + Brutal Strike only gains 1 point of effective raw (maybe not even that, depending on how the game handles rounding), but looses a whole 9 element. Someone feel free to check my math, because for some fucking reason I got 305.1375 raw for the Brutal Strike build the first time around, and did a whole bunch more calculations with bow motion values and charge levels and monster hitzones to show that even if those numbers were correct and you traded in 9 ele for 10 raw, the brutal strike build only barely breaks even on raw favored matchups like Zinogre, while getting consistently outdamaged by 1-2 points per arrow everywhere else. Even if they fixed the elemental charge values completely overriding the shot type ele modifiers, the WEX build still wins.
But uh, when I went to check the math one last time while writing this post I found out that, nah, I just pulled that 305 number out of my ass somewhere? Seriously, I have no idea how I got that and can't replicate it at all. WEX is just strictly better if you are hitting weakpoints, not loosing any raw at all and getting an extra 9 ele for free.
Diablos with Attack 7, Bludgeoner 3:
230 * 1.05 * 1.2 + 10 = 300
Diablos then loses 3.75% damage from negative affinity, which I'm mitigating to 2.8% due to phials not critting, so let's call it 291.6.
Ore 2 with Attack 7:
210 * 1.2 * 1.1 + 10 = 287
But that's hardly fair. The Ore 2 set has three empty slots that it didn't have to spend on Bludgeoner. Let's do the laziest possible thing and put Critical Eye 3 on there for a 2.8% damage boost and call it 295.
Bludgeoner builds aren't competitive on Switch Axe. If Bludgeoner's gonna be good on anything it'll be Charge Blade, since Impact Phial explosions aren't affected by affinity or sharpness, and they can also plausibly run Offensive Guard to really take your raw to Stupid Town. I haven't had a chance to really mess with Charge Blade yet, though.
i could not even begin to understand the interaction with something like bow, but in the case of big raw based weapons like hammer or GS my understanding is that it more or less cancels out the negative affinity, and with itemization and slots as they currently are, AB7 on high raw with effectively 0% is still fairly competitive with a loaded out crit set with lower raw, though definitely not winning. with how limited the options for wex and crit boost are atm i can get running it anyway.
on the other hand, i've also heard it's kind of a mixed bag, with a lot of people who played it in world not loving it as much in rise so i dunno
I guess, what is the MV per arrow of a typical bow hit, vs the flat damage of elemental (is it divided among arrows per attack?). It might be better ignoring affinity entirely and going hard on element and defensive/utility skills.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
SAED doesn't consume shield charge, no. Also, the counter silkbind is nice since it instantly fills your phials and you can cancel out of it into sword charge, axe mode, or SAED based on input.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Everything I can find says that both elemental damage isn't effected by negative critical hits, and also that crit boosting skills like crit boost/crit ele do not effect negative crits in any way, the game treats them as a completely separate event. I can't imagine that being changed for brutal strike, but I guess you would have to test to be 100% sure.
The shot type of a specific bow determines both the raw motion value of each arrow, elemental modifier of each arrow (applied to the flat ele attack), as well as the total number of arrows fired. Anjanath Bow, for example, has a shot type of Rapid 4 at charge levels 3 and 4. Rapid 4 shoots out 4 arrows, each with a raw mv of 10 and an elemental modifier of 0.8. However, each charge level also has a modifier that gets applied to the motion value (raw is 0.4 / 1.0 / 1.5 / 1.7 for each charge level, ele is 0.7 / 0.85 / 1 / 1.125, note that negative modifier on charge level 1 that makes dash dancing to build charge so desirable), and that's where things get a bit buggy in Rise. Basically, bow ele damage is ignoring the shot type modifier completely, and using just the charge level mv modifier by itself. So for the Anjanath Bow with Fire Boost 3 for 24 fire, for example, a charge level 4 shot against a 30 fire hitzone should be adding 6.48 damage per arrow (24 x 0.8 x 1.125 x 0.3), but is instead adding 8.1 damage per arrow (24 x 1.125 x 0.3). It is possible to probable that this gets fixed in an upcoming patch, so ele bows should be loosing 1-2 damage per arrow, possible more for higher ele values. Not really a big deal, but good to keep in mind.
As for raw/affinity vs elemental, I think this thread has a pretty good overview. Basically, the charge level modifiers for raw damage are bonkers (1.5 to 1.7 in charge levels 3 and 4, which you should be at most of the time), and WEX scales raw better than attack boost with the limited slots that Bow currently has available.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I want the money one but it's constantly being replaced with the point one in my quick dango
Nope, the daily dango is totally RNG. Every other dango is fixed and always available.
Upgrading and crafting every armor set is expensive but what can you do when you're a crazy person.
Thankfully I was still able to get the carve in time, but it was close.
Incidentally I was doing that to test how I feel about helm breaker vs sakura slash when playing solo, and I think I actually prefer sakura slash. The damage potential is significantly lower, since helm breaker's damage is just stupid with a red gauge, but not having to care about gauge color at all just makes life infinitely easier. That being said, I am relatively new to longsword still, so maybe I'm just not good enough yet at finding opportunities to do the full spirit combo or hit the iai counter.
Make HR leather armor, do mining runs for 250k+ a trip.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
And if I'm able to hit him straight on, shit, I don't need the Pierce, lol.
The Spread Bow has been awesome, though; gotta get in there pretty close, but then you just broadside the motherfucker over and over. Even when he's thrashing around and jumping all over the place, I can't hardly miss him. Not every shot goes into its weak points, obviously, but it feels so much better than the other weapons I've hunted him with.
I prefer Sakura slash, with the other kind of spirit comb. So I'm basically making gauge easier one way and way harder the other.
pleasepaypreacher.net
What I mean by general purpose is one with some good base skills and a bunch of free single slots to add in the element of the day.
This brings me to my question:
The best I have is a WEX2 Charm with no slots. I can easily use Narga Waist + Deco for Evade Extender 3, or use that slot for something else and get Evade Extender 2.
Now, what I can't remember is the math on Critical Boost. Is it worth to chase it, or should I just focus on WEX3, getting at least Attack Boost 4, and taking whatever Critical Eye and Razor Sharp I can grab, or is Critical Boost rank 2 worth giving up some points in either attack boost, critical eye, razor sharp, or WEX?
It's a tough call- a lot of builds open up if I ditch Rajang Pants, but I don't know if it's worth it to drop Crit Boost 2 for something else.
...which, typing it out, seems really easy to beat.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Hmmm. That's the missing piece in my brain. I run WEX3 easily, so at minimum that's 50%affinity, so CB is adding like..10 raw if I'm using a weapon with 190 raw. You're right, that does seem pretty easy to beat, plus I'm not perfect and always hitting weakpoints.
Thanks for the sanity check and reminding me of the damage formula that my brain just shorted out on. I'll take a look at some of my weapon sets, but I'm pretty sure I feel comfortable dropping CB it it allows me to fit in some ranks of evade extender on dual blades specifically.
spoiler: you can't put that shit in your pouch the right way to begin with
that shit rules
switch axe? lol fuck no
In fact, I haven't fought anything more aggressive than an Aknosom with swaxe, I really should get back to that weapon at some point.
Been on a bit of a dual blades kick myself recently, it's pretty fun to just naruto run all over the place.
zinogre in rise is all kinds of fucked, his front legs are shitzones now, you either have to hit the head directly or go for hind legs. go by the hind legs, you're constantly getting harassed by tail slams and spins. his punish windows are absolutely minimal and when he does the charge up, he'll always try and get as far away as possible. the only way i can figure out to get reliable damage on him is playing hammer like a crit draw GS, only doing moving charged level 2s and 3s, evading back out and waiting outside his range for another shot. you can pile on damage during stuns and downs, but those are the only two moves you're gonna land outside of it, because he's aggressive as all hell and even things like the paw swipes have insane tracking and range.
Typical hunt goes Zinogre does maybe 2-3 hip checks, pounces, or tail slams, then eventually stops to howl and charge up.
Then you just shoot him in the face until he flinches, then go for aerial aim or dash dash absolute power shot spam. After he recovers from the flinch (assuming you haven't gotten the knockdown yet), 90% of the time he will just howl again, or maybe do one paw swipe into a howl. So you just constantly loop flinches, knockdowns, and stuns by just constantly hitting him in the face and going for aerial shot whenever the flinch happens to get the quick mount (which of course leads into another knockdown and follow up flinch).
It is probably the easiest bow matchup in the entire game? Shit honestly feels completely unfair, the poor puppy makes himself into a target dummy for 75% of the fight.
Did I mention that his head is a 70 shot hitzone? It's dumb as hell
Eventually figured out that since I had updated my bow set to drop Evade Extender 1, the way I was trying to dodge certain moves while staying in my normal "right in front of his face and shoot the head" position didn't actually work anymore, or at least had much stricter timing.
Put EE1 back on and, yep, suddenly could magically avoid all his attacks again... only my muscle memory for aiming out of a sidestep was completely fucked and I kept whiffing shots, good times, good times. Also had a few fun moments where I misjudged how far my charging sidestep would take me and I dash dashed into his beam, those were some embarrassing carts.