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As was brought up before, I'm not sure how the shield+armour works out. Sure, if you can get a knife through a shield and the guy is wearing some fine noble tunic thats all peachy. But getting a knife through a shield and then bumping into armour? You can't just cut through armour, and any sort of concussive force is out of the question due to lack of speed. You're basically relegated to grappling and finding weakpoints (though with any half decent sci-fi suit, all the joins seem pretty reinforced anyways). At which point, I think any sort of knife-life weapon would be super thin stilettos or small flexible rapiers to find gaps and pierce. Or spring-loaded boltguns that you push through a shield and then activate to mechanically punch through armour at point blank.
But I get the themes of space stagnation and tradition.
When happens if something is half-inside a shield, but then it speeds up? Does the shield jam it up, or cut it off or something?
If I grab your shielded arm with my shielded hand, how do the shields interact with each other if they activate inside each other?
If something speeds up on the inside of the shield, does it stay locked inside the shields until its slow enough to pass out? Like if a gun muzzle gets inside and shoots a high velocity round, will the bullet just richochet around and turn the wearer to goo?
I know they didn't say anything specfically about lasguns vs shields in the movie (a missed opportunity) by boy oh boy were the Harkonnens and Sardaukar slinging some lasers around without much care in the world. Sure was lucky no one in the city happened to be wearing a sheild when they were (very slowly) chasing Duncan's thopter with a beam.
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
There's not a scrap of information to suggest the Fremen are cannibals. They have a whole tenet of "a man's flesh belongs to himself, his water to the tribe".
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies, but it's just water because they've got futuristic tech for doing that. They aren't cannibals any more than I'm a cannibal for having carbon in my body that, via the food chain, once belonged to another human being. Water is just... water, they don't drink human blood or anything like that.
This strikes me as a little "I'm vegan, I would never eat beef, I only fast food eat pink slime burgers. What they're processed" :P
They literally just reclaim the H2O from dead bodies. It's emotionally close to cannibalism, sure (and intentionally so on the part of the author) but it's difficult to logically cover the act of drinking water under the umbrella of 'cannibalism' in a way that makes it so that umbrella doesn't also cover all other human beings. All water you drink has been recycled from other living things, humans included. Hell, funeral homes pour the blood and fluids from bodies they process down the drain into the sewer, where it's processed through wastewater treatment. We're essentially doing the same thing as the fremen do every day, just less directly.
Regarding the shooting a laser at Duncan's ornithopter, that ship was very clearly shown to have a shield because you could see it activate blue at one point as it deflected something (I believe a projectile but I could be wrong), so if they had managed to hit him that would have been pretty catastrophic. I don't recall the exact mechanics from the books, but it was a definite reason that lasers were not typically used in combat from what I remember.
Regarding the shooting a laser at Duncan's ornithopter, that ship was very clearly shown to have a shield because you could see it activate blue at one point as it deflected something (I believe a projectile but I could be wrong), so if they had managed to hit him that would have been pretty catastrophic. I don't recall the exact mechanics from the books, but it was a definite reason that lasers were not typically used in combat from what I remember.
I want to say his thopter bumped into something and lost its shield? But yeah, the whole bombardment even before the laser seemed really like the Harkonnen did not give a flying eff if everything were obliterated
There's not a scrap of information to suggest the Fremen are cannibals. They have a whole tenet of "a man's flesh belongs to himself, his water to the tribe".
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies, but it's just water because they've got futuristic tech for doing that. They aren't cannibals any more than I'm a cannibal for having carbon in my body that, via the food chain, once belonged to another human being. Water is just... water, they don't drink human blood or anything like that.
This strikes me as a little "I'm vegan, I would never eat beef, I only fast food eat pink slime burgers. What they're processed" :P
They literally just reclaim the H2O from dead bodies. It's emotionally close to cannibalism, sure (and intentionally so on the part of the author) but it's difficult to logically cover the act of drinking water under the umbrella of 'cannibalism' in a way that makes it so that umbrella doesn't also cover all other human beings. All water you drink has been recycled from other living things, humans included. Hell, funeral homes pour the blood and fluids from bodies they process down the drain into the sewer, where it's processed through wastewater treatment. We're essentially doing the same thing as the fremen do every day, just less directly.
I mean I'm not bothered by it or anything, it's an apparently 100% desert planet after all. If anything that it's a 100% desert planet with a breathable atmosphere and complex life bothers me more (which is to say not really at all, it's sci-fi and it's cool so just shut up and enjoy it).
But it's not cannibalism because hey all water is recycled so what's the big deal skips over the "They have a special process specifically for sucking the precious fluid out of corpses and will kill people specifically to do so" part which is where things get a little iffy for me on the "It's not really cannibalism" front :P
+1
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
The Fremen are universally perceived as a desperate people. They live in a harsh place and make harsh, quick choices for the sake of survival, but they have thrived in that harsh environment. They're always prepared such that food is never the issue, it's only ever water. And even then (some book spoilers)
their water discipline is incredibly strict because they work to store as much of it as they can in order to terraform the planet. Fremen will die from dehydration rather than drink water for that project because that's one of their huge unifying beliefs.
And after dessicating a body, they bury the remains because part of the whole point of the Fremen is that they're absolutely as human as anybody else and still respect the dead. They survive just fine without having to consider eating people, alive or dead.
And drinking water that came from a body is definitely not cannibalism. Water is just water, just a simple molecule. It's pretty unlikely anybody on the planet doesn't have water in them right now that hasn't cycled through dozens of other people, that doesn't make us all cannibals in the slightest.
There's not a scrap of information to suggest the Fremen are cannibals. They have a whole tenet of "a man's flesh belongs to himself, his water to the tribe".
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies, but it's just water because they've got futuristic tech for doing that. They aren't cannibals any more than I'm a cannibal for having carbon in my body that, via the food chain, once belonged to another human being. Water is just... water, they don't drink human blood or anything like that.
This strikes me as a little "I'm vegan, I would never eat beef, I only fast food eat pink slime burgers. What they're processed" :P
They literally just reclaim the H2O from dead bodies. It's emotionally close to cannibalism, sure (and intentionally so on the part of the author) but it's difficult to logically cover the act of drinking water under the umbrella of 'cannibalism' in a way that makes it so that umbrella doesn't also cover all other human beings. All water you drink has been recycled from other living things, humans included. Hell, funeral homes pour the blood and fluids from bodies they process down the drain into the sewer, where it's processed through wastewater treatment. We're essentially doing the same thing as the fremen do every day, just less directly.
I mean I'm not bothered by it or anything, it's an apparently 100% desert planet after all. If anything that it's a 100% desert planet with a breathable atmosphere and complex life bothers me more (which is to say not really at all, it's sci-fi and it's cool so just shut up and enjoy it).
But it's not cannibalism because hey all water is recycled so what's the big deal skips over the "They have a special process specifically for sucking the precious fluid out of corpses and will kill people specifically to do so" part which is where things get a little iffy for me on the "It's not really cannibalism" front :P
To the latter point, again, funeral homes do that. I mean, not the killing people part (I should hope ) that's the fremen's thing. But we specifically have machines that suck the precious fluids out of human corpses, and then we treat those fluids and return them to municipal water supplies. We just don't do it very well.
To the former point, Dune is a little more thoughtful about it than most sci-fi stories that have desert planets with life and breathable atmospheres. I'm not sure how much the movies will get into it, but "where is Arrakis' water?" is an ongoing question that is asked very early on and is gradually dealt with in the novels.
Shields are pretty much a plot contrivance. We never really get any real explanation on how they work and in what circumstances.
But two things: fast things get stopped from entering, only from entering. once inside its normal. The bodies inside can move as fast as they want, after all your heart moves faster than 10 cm a second if its beating fast(not to mention nerve impulsess) and if it slowed you down, then somebody without a shield could just shove a knife in there without you being able to react in defense.
The other thing is that if a Shield is hit with a Lasgun, then both the Shield and the Lasgun explode. If the shield is large enough it looks like an atomic bomb exploded. Since Atomics are banned due to being no fun, Lasguns are rare.
The reason for the lack of info is that not only are shields a plot device, but Arrakis is specifically designated as the one place where Shields are considered a bad idea due to worms going crazy angry nuts for them. So its a plot device we don't get any really insight into.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I always found it super interesting that the Fremen have this millenia long plan to gather up all the water on the planet to terraform it, but they also worship Shai Hulud as their god and their plan will kill said god. It's not something you really see in many stories, where the grand plan of the sympathetic faction will have such unintended consequences.
There's not a scrap of information to suggest the Fremen are cannibals. They have a whole tenet of "a man's flesh belongs to himself, his water to the tribe".
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies, but it's just water because they've got futuristic tech for doing that. They aren't cannibals any more than I'm a cannibal for having carbon in my body that, via the food chain, once belonged to another human being. Water is just... water, they don't drink human blood or anything like that.
This strikes me as a little "I'm vegan, I would never eat beef, I only fast food eat pink slime burgers. What they're processed" :P
They literally just reclaim the H2O from dead bodies. It's emotionally close to cannibalism, sure (and intentionally so on the part of the author) but it's difficult to logically cover the act of drinking water under the umbrella of 'cannibalism' in a way that makes it so that umbrella doesn't also cover all other human beings. All water you drink has been recycled from other living things, humans included. Hell, funeral homes pour the blood and fluids from bodies they process down the drain into the sewer, where it's processed through wastewater treatment. We're essentially doing the same thing as the fremen do every day, just less directly.
I mean I'm not bothered by it or anything, it's an apparently 100% desert planet after all. If anything that it's a 100% desert planet with a breathable atmosphere and complex life bothers me more (which is to say not really at all, it's sci-fi and it's cool so just shut up and enjoy it).
But it's not cannibalism because hey all water is recycled so what's the big deal skips over the "They have a special process specifically for sucking the precious fluid out of corpses and will kill people specifically to do so" part which is where things get a little iffy for me on the "It's not really cannibalism" front :P
To the latter point, again, funeral homes do that. I mean, not the killing people part (I should hope ) that's the fremen's thing. But we specifically have machines that suck the precious fluids out of human corpses, and then we treat those fluids and return them to municipal water supplies. We just don't do it very well.
To the former point, Dune is a little more thoughtful about it than most sci-fi stories that have desert planets with life and breathable atmospheres. I'm not sure how much the movies will get into it, but "where is Arrakis' water?" is an ongoing question that is asked very early on and is gradually dealt with in the novels.
Ok but to me the funeral home thing doesn't hold water because funeral homes don't do that to consume the fluids, they do it to prevent the corpse from rotting. The fact that some of the water included in all the fluids drained may theoretically end up in the water supply is an unintended consequence not the desired result.
The Fremen don't do it to prevent the corpse from rotting they quite literally do it to consume the fluid.
I think this is more book spoilerish but I haven't seen the movie yet so going to put it in spoilers just in case. But about Arrakis as a planet/biosystem.
In the book the planet never felt sterile. Deserts are not dead zones but instead a place with a very different life cycle than a forest or a plain. And Herbert went to length to make the planet not feel sterile. Muad'Dib aka Paul's name is the name of a desert mouse that the Fremen also see on the moon. There are descriptions of stuff like birds that hunt for water via blood. There are plants not just in green houses. The active polar caps. The worms of course. I mean he even puts in a planetologist as a main character. A man studying the biosystem of Arrakis. It is kind of unique in limited biome planets that most sci-fi universes have.
+6
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
By that logic if I use you as long pig I'm not eating you I'm eating the sushi you had :P
It may not be the same as the pop-culture stereotype eating raw human flesh, but it's absolutely a form of cannibalism in definition. There's water locked up in squishy human meat, and they regularly render it down to get the water back out. This isn't like a 5 step byproduct of some other act, they're doing it deliberately for the express purpose of resource consumption.
And this is all semantics anyway? Yeah. The Fremen suck water out of dead people. They live on a planet with very little water, and there's a lot of water in dead people.
If this is some moral measuring stick, the Fremen are explicitly NOT the good guys either. They might be underdogs at the start of the series, but they're very much a society of fanatically militant zealots, primed to be exploited by engineered religion.
they sterilize like 100 planets, crush dozens of religions, and kill billions of people in the name of thier god. Drinking water from bodies isnt the worst thing they do by a galactic mile.
Regarding the shooting a laser at Duncan's ornithopter, that ship was very clearly shown to have a shield because you could see it activate blue at one point as it deflected something (I believe a projectile but I could be wrong), so if they had managed to hit him that would have been pretty catastrophic. I don't recall the exact mechanics from the books, but it was a definite reason that lasers were not typically used in combat from what I remember.
It basically can cause effectively an atomic explosion if I recall correctly which is why generally you don't use laser guns unless you are pretty certain the opponent is not shielded.
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yup.
Shields block nearly everything fast moving well, but create a nuclear explosion if shot with a laser. Which is why hunter killers seek to push through shields, and why nobody uses laser rifles.
Really it was just an excuse to get them to fight hand to hand.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
Tigers? What? Here, maybe a parallel will help you understand.
A tribe of cannibals finds an explorer at the edge of their territory. They kill the explorer.
They throw the explorer's arms and legs and guts in a stew pot and eat them = considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's arms and legs in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the guts = still considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's guts in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the limbs = still considered cannibalism
They process the arms and legs and guts and extract water from them and put that water in a canteen and drink it = still considered cannibalism
Yeah the fremen are deliberately meant to be people with an alien set of moral values that both the great houses and the viewer are supposed to have a hard time understanding because they conform to a very different environment and set of needs, which is the entire point. They are deliberately meant to make the audience consider the moral relativism of their actions and customs, because the things they do all make a fair amount of sense given the world they inhabit and the harsh realities of what they need to do to survive. They're not supposed to be 'good', they're supposed to be people who live in accordance with the ecological realities of their world and thus to have a very special set of strengths that the empire is simply incapable of accounting for. They are neither brutish hordes nor noble savages, they're just people with a fundamentally unique way of living.
Paul's not really a 'good' guy either; he's got a set of moral values and a sense of justice that he derives from his father that is uncommon for the universe he lives in, but he's also put in a position where attempting to enact any sort of change he might desire requires exploiting people utterly in a way he was essentially designed to along a path that was created for him and then bringing about untold amounts of unavoidable slaughter and suffering as a consequence. And the path he does end up following is largely motivated by revenge.
And in the end he shrinks away from it and it destroys him because it's a fate he can't bear even if he knows he already put all the gears in motion for someone else to.
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
There aren’t really good guys and bad guys in Dune.
There are Colonizers, Victims, and Perpetrators. And each person can wear multiple hats.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
There aren’t really good guys and bad guys in Dune.
There are Colonizers, Victims, and Perpetrators. And each person can wear multiple hats.
Right, the story overall is very much about the evils of what it means to exercise power and control over other people.
+1
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Except the Harkonens.
Those are bad guys.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
Tigers? What? Here, maybe a parallel will help you understand.
A tribe of cannibals finds an explorer at the edge of their territory. They kill the explorer.
They throw the explorer's arms and legs and guts in a stew pot and eat them = considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's arms and legs in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the guts = still considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's guts in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the limbs = still considered cannibalism
They process the arms and legs and guts and extract water from them and put that water in a canteen and drink it = still considered cannibalism
Your end statement is wrong. Cannibalism is eating human tissue. Water isn't human tissue, water is just the solution all our human goo floats in. The Fremen don't walk around drinking flasks of human blood or chowing on people jerky, they suck out the water from your body and bury everything that would make them cannibals if they ate it.
No idea what the point is for pushing a literally incorrect definition of cannibalism.
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
Tigers? What? Here, maybe a parallel will help you understand.
A tribe of cannibals finds an explorer at the edge of their territory. They kill the explorer.
They throw the explorer's arms and legs and guts in a stew pot and eat them = considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's arms and legs in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the guts = still considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's guts in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the limbs = still considered cannibalism
They process the arms and legs and guts and extract water from them and put that water in a canteen and drink it = still considered cannibalism
Your end statement is wrong. Cannibalism is eating human tissue. Water isn't human tissue, water is just the solution all our human goo floats in. The Fremen don't walk around drinking flasks of human blood or chowing on people jerky, they suck out the water from your body and bury everything that would make them cannibals if they ate it.
No idea what the point is for pushing a literally incorrect definition of cannibalism.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
+1
SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Yes, they will kill people and take the water from their bodies,
Process the carcass, you mean.
And if you're saying they don't eat the rest of the dried out body but instead discard it, they're not just cannibals, they're wasteful cannibals.
That is such a weird battle to pick
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
Tigers? What? Here, maybe a parallel will help you understand.
A tribe of cannibals finds an explorer at the edge of their territory. They kill the explorer.
They throw the explorer's arms and legs and guts in a stew pot and eat them = considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's arms and legs in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the guts = still considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's guts in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the limbs = still considered cannibalism
They process the arms and legs and guts and extract water from them and put that water in a canteen and drink it = still considered cannibalism
Your end statement is wrong. Cannibalism is eating human tissue. Water isn't human tissue, water is just the solution all our human goo floats in. The Fremen don't walk around drinking flasks of human blood or chowing on people jerky, they suck out the water from your body and bury everything that would make them cannibals if they ate it.
No idea what the point is for pushing a literally incorrect definition of cannibalism.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I think the fremen's situation was a lot more morally gray here; they literally can't support adding a person to their sietch who can't carry their own weight, anyone who can't carry their own weight is essentially a death sentence for someone else given how harsh day-to-day life is. This woman is also one of the outworlders who have been oppressing their people for centuries (why would a fremen believe there was really a difference between the Atreides and a Harkonnen, and even if Stilgar had reason to respect Leto he doesn't know if this woman is as trustworthy as Leto), so even if she could survive by herself in the desert (she cannot) it would be unsafe to let her wander around on her own where she might discover things that would compromise the safety of the sietch. They would've had to kill her anyway. Really taking her water in the process would be the least wasteful. And hey, it's giving her an opportunity to provide for her son in death. Win-win, really.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I can't even.
Do you really not see any difference between a plot to eradicate the house Atreides, with no regard for civilian casualties, treating those prisoners as fuckmeat, reveling in cruelty etc etc and "yeah we live in the desert and can't possibly carry people who are not capable of surviving here, but we are in constant need for water, sooo..."
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I can't even.
Do you really not see any difference between a plot to eradicate the house Atreides, with no regard for civilian casualties, treating those prisoners as fuckmeat, reveling in cruelty etc etc and "yeah we live in the desert and can't possibly carry people who are not capable of surviving here, but we are in constant need for water, sooo..."
The first scene of the movie is a Fremen jumping up from the sands and gutting a Harkonen. Duncan vouched for the Fremen but he also said they attacked him on sight and nearly killed him. And we all know Paul is going to ride on the back of a sand worm in the next movie (a very iconic image in sci-fi) and he and the Fremen are going to steer a bunch of those giants into the base to smite all enemies. We'll see how it plays out in 2023 but I'm convinced the Fremen are bad dudes, too.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I can't even.
Do you really not see any difference between a plot to eradicate the house Atreides, with no regard for civilian casualties, treating those prisoners as fuckmeat, reveling in cruelty etc etc and "yeah we live in the desert and can't possibly carry people who are not capable of surviving here, but we are in constant need for water, sooo..."
The first scene of the movie is a Fremen jumping up from the sands and gutting a Harkonen. Duncan vouched for the Fremen but he also said they attacked him on sight and nearly killed him. And we all know Paul is going to ride on the back of a sand worm in the next movie (a very iconic image in sci-fi) and he and the Fremen are going to steer a bunch of those giants into the base to smite all enemies. We'll see how it plays out in 2023 but I'm convinced the Fremen are bad dudes, too.
The fremen are hostile towards outsiders because they have been killed and oppressed by outsiders for centuries. It's kill first and ask questions later, because if they didn't do that they'd be dead already.
I mean I don't see what the moral relevance of whether you label it cannibalism or not is. These outworlders lost in the desert were just gonna get eaten by Shai-Hulud anyway why let them waste their water.
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
I can't even.
Do you really not see any difference between a plot to eradicate the house Atreides, with no regard for civilian casualties, treating those prisoners as fuckmeat, reveling in cruelty etc etc and "yeah we live in the desert and can't possibly carry people who are not capable of surviving here, but we are in constant need for water, sooo..."
The first scene of the movie is a Fremen jumping up from the sands and gutting a Harkonen. Duncan vouched for the Fremen but he also said they attacked him on sight and nearly killed him. And we all know Paul is going to ride on the back of a sand worm in the next movie (a very iconic image in sci-fi) and he and the Fremen are going to steer a bunch of those giants into the base to smite all enemies. We'll see how it plays out in 2023 but I'm convinced the Fremen are bad dudes, too.
The fremen are hostile towards outsiders because they have been killed and oppressed by outsiders for centuries. It's kill first and ask questions later, because if they didn't do that they'd be dead already.
Yes, generations of oppression have twisted a people into bad dudes.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Is a blood transfusion cannibalism
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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But I get the themes of space stagnation and tradition.
When happens if something is half-inside a shield, but then it speeds up? Does the shield jam it up, or cut it off or something?
If I grab your shielded arm with my shielded hand, how do the shields interact with each other if they activate inside each other?
If something speeds up on the inside of the shield, does it stay locked inside the shields until its slow enough to pass out? Like if a gun muzzle gets inside and shoots a high velocity round, will the bullet just richochet around and turn the wearer to goo?
I know they didn't say anything specfically about lasguns vs shields in the movie (a missed opportunity) by boy oh boy were the Harkonnens and Sardaukar slinging some lasers around without much care in the world. Sure was lucky no one in the city happened to be wearing a sheild when they were (very slowly) chasing Duncan's thopter with a beam.
There shouldn't even be a battle because it's so obvious. The Fremen are an oppressed and desperate people who would cut your throat if you walk near their caves and suck the moisture from your cooling corpse. They are also "the good guys".
They literally just reclaim the H2O from dead bodies. It's emotionally close to cannibalism, sure (and intentionally so on the part of the author) but it's difficult to logically cover the act of drinking water under the umbrella of 'cannibalism' in a way that makes it so that umbrella doesn't also cover all other human beings. All water you drink has been recycled from other living things, humans included. Hell, funeral homes pour the blood and fluids from bodies they process down the drain into the sewer, where it's processed through wastewater treatment. We're essentially doing the same thing as the fremen do every day, just less directly.
I want to say his thopter bumped into something and lost its shield? But yeah, the whole bombardment even before the laser seemed really like the Harkonnen did not give a flying eff if everything were obliterated
I mean I'm not bothered by it or anything, it's an apparently 100% desert planet after all. If anything that it's a 100% desert planet with a breathable atmosphere and complex life bothers me more (which is to say not really at all, it's sci-fi and it's cool so just shut up and enjoy it).
But it's not cannibalism because hey all water is recycled so what's the big deal skips over the "They have a special process specifically for sucking the precious fluid out of corpses and will kill people specifically to do so" part which is where things get a little iffy for me on the "It's not really cannibalism" front :P
The Fremen are universally perceived as a desperate people. They live in a harsh place and make harsh, quick choices for the sake of survival, but they have thrived in that harsh environment. They're always prepared such that food is never the issue, it's only ever water. And even then (some book spoilers)
And after dessicating a body, they bury the remains because part of the whole point of the Fremen is that they're absolutely as human as anybody else and still respect the dead. They survive just fine without having to consider eating people, alive or dead.
And drinking water that came from a body is definitely not cannibalism. Water is just water, just a simple molecule. It's pretty unlikely anybody on the planet doesn't have water in them right now that hasn't cycled through dozens of other people, that doesn't make us all cannibals in the slightest.
To the latter point, again, funeral homes do that. I mean, not the killing people part (I should hope
To the former point, Dune is a little more thoughtful about it than most sci-fi stories that have desert planets with life and breathable atmospheres. I'm not sure how much the movies will get into it, but "where is Arrakis' water?" is an ongoing question that is asked very early on and is gradually dealt with in the novels.
But two things: fast things get stopped from entering, only from entering. once inside its normal. The bodies inside can move as fast as they want, after all your heart moves faster than 10 cm a second if its beating fast(not to mention nerve impulsess) and if it slowed you down, then somebody without a shield could just shove a knife in there without you being able to react in defense.
The other thing is that if a Shield is hit with a Lasgun, then both the Shield and the Lasgun explode. If the shield is large enough it looks like an atomic bomb exploded. Since Atomics are banned due to being no fun, Lasguns are rare.
The reason for the lack of info is that not only are shields a plot device, but Arrakis is specifically designated as the one place where Shields are considered a bad idea due to worms going crazy angry nuts for them. So its a plot device we don't get any really insight into.
Ok but to me the funeral home thing doesn't hold water because funeral homes don't do that to consume the fluids, they do it to prevent the corpse from rotting. The fact that some of the water included in all the fluids drained may theoretically end up in the water supply is an unintended consequence not the desired result.
The Fremen don't do it to prevent the corpse from rotting they quite literally do it to consume the fluid.
I mean by your logic if I eat the tiger that ate you I’m a cannibal.
By that logic if I use you as long pig I'm not eating you I'm eating the sushi you had :P
And this is all semantics anyway? Yeah. The Fremen suck water out of dead people. They live on a planet with very little water, and there's a lot of water in dead people.
If this is some moral measuring stick, the Fremen are explicitly NOT the good guys either. They might be underdogs at the start of the series, but they're very much a society of fanatically militant zealots, primed to be exploited by engineered religion.
It basically can cause effectively an atomic explosion if I recall correctly which is why generally you don't use laser guns unless you are pretty certain the opponent is not shielded.
Shields block nearly everything fast moving well, but create a nuclear explosion if shot with a laser. Which is why hunter killers seek to push through shields, and why nobody uses laser rifles.
Really it was just an excuse to get them to fight hand to hand.
Tigers? What? Here, maybe a parallel will help you understand.
A tribe of cannibals finds an explorer at the edge of their territory. They kill the explorer.
They throw the explorer's arms and legs and guts in a stew pot and eat them = considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's arms and legs in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the guts = still considered cannibalism
They throw the explorer's guts in a stew pot and eat them but respectfully bury the limbs = still considered cannibalism
They process the arms and legs and guts and extract water from them and put that water in a canteen and drink it = still considered cannibalism
There are Colonizers, Victims, and Perpetrators. And each person can wear multiple hats.
Right, the story overall is very much about the evils of what it means to exercise power and control over other people.
Those are bad guys.
Your end statement is wrong. Cannibalism is eating human tissue. Water isn't human tissue, water is just the solution all our human goo floats in. The Fremen don't walk around drinking flasks of human blood or chowing on people jerky, they suck out the water from your body and bury everything that would make them cannibals if they ate it.
No idea what the point is for pushing a literally incorrect definition of cannibalism.
The dead explorer vehemently disagrees with you.
Why is this so important to you
Paul was doing a good job of staring down that worm by himself.
The point of all my fussing is the Fremen are as bad as the Harkonens and I base that on how they treated the Wyrd royal chick in this movie. (I didn't catch her name.) As their prisoner, the Harkonens were going to rape her and leave her to die in the desert. As their prisoner, the Fremen were going to slit her throat and take her body to camp where it could be harvested. Like you said, it's a harsh universe and there are no good guys and so I guess I'm trying to sit in a corner and pout about it for a little while.
This is true: everyone is morally complex except the Harkonnens, who are absurdly ridiculously evil and have every derogatory label piled upon them.
Speaking of which, I'm glad that "the Baron is evil because he's a homosexual pedophile" was mercifully absent from the script.
I think the fremen's situation was a lot more morally gray here; they literally can't support adding a person to their sietch who can't carry their own weight, anyone who can't carry their own weight is essentially a death sentence for someone else given how harsh day-to-day life is. This woman is also one of the outworlders who have been oppressing their people for centuries (why would a fremen believe there was really a difference between the Atreides and a Harkonnen, and even if Stilgar had reason to respect Leto he doesn't know if this woman is as trustworthy as Leto), so even if she could survive by herself in the desert (she cannot) it would be unsafe to let her wander around on her own where she might discover things that would compromise the safety of the sietch. They would've had to kill her anyway. Really taking her water in the process would be the least wasteful. And hey, it's giving her an opportunity to provide for her son in death. Win-win, really.
I'm a Harkonen plant. The Baron paid me a barrel of spice to spread House Harkonen propaganda and slander his enemies on the internet.
I can't even.
Do you really not see any difference between a plot to eradicate the house Atreides, with no regard for civilian casualties, treating those prisoners as fuckmeat, reveling in cruelty etc etc and "yeah we live in the desert and can't possibly carry people who are not capable of surviving here, but we are in constant need for water, sooo..."
The first scene of the movie is a Fremen jumping up from the sands and gutting a Harkonen. Duncan vouched for the Fremen but he also said they attacked him on sight and nearly killed him. And we all know Paul is going to ride on the back of a sand worm in the next movie (a very iconic image in sci-fi) and he and the Fremen are going to steer a bunch of those giants into the base to smite all enemies. We'll see how it plays out in 2023 but I'm convinced the Fremen are bad dudes, too.
The fremen are hostile towards outsiders because they have been killed and oppressed by outsiders for centuries. It's kill first and ask questions later, because if they didn't do that they'd be dead already.
Yes, generations of oppression have twisted a people into bad dudes.
If you take one pint and the donor lives, no, of course not. If you take 9 pints and the donor is left looking like a desiccated mummy, yes.
My D&D manual says they're undead, not human, so they count as a different species.