K, I'm jumping onboard kinda late so forgive me if these points have already been iterated.
As for Harry being a horcrux, I think it's extremely likely. I've seen alot of things pointed out and wanted to mention his being able to speak parseltongue as well. OR it could just be that his scar is the horcrux.
As for either Sirious or Dumbeledore coming back it's highly unlikely. It wouldn't fit with the development of myth that the stories have been following. Traditionally myths require the apprentice to have to separate from his mentors to grow and it's usually a painful experience. Of course there have been exceptions; Gandalf and Obi-Wan but neither were really 100% the same person and in the case of Galdalf, Frodo still thought he was dead until after the ring was destroyed.
I dunno. I really can't get into the idea of an accidental horcrux, given that the description of the Horcrux creation process as described by Slughorn said that there is a spell that has to be cast. /shrug.
The second time I read through HBP I had the theory in mind and Slughorns exact words are something like "Theres a spell or something, dont ask me I dont know exactly" so we dont really know. If the spell has to be cast before avada kedavra, or at the same time its very possible Harry is an accidental horcrux, if after, then no.
Regardless or whether Harry is or not I'm pretty certain Nagini isnt. Before Dumbledore says thats what he's speculating he goes out of his way to state "But bear in mind I might be really, really wrong" throwing in that kind of disclaimer when Dumbledore can typically be taken to be right about most things is a big alarm bell. Ithink Nagini is a red herring.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
edited June 2007
I would really like Snape to have double-crossed Dumbledore. It would be nice for the infallable uberwizard to have made a critical mistake.
But it ain't gonna happen. Rowlings has gone out of her way to write the encounter between Snape and Dumbledore to appear as if Snape was evil. Yes, it's obvious, but it's a book for kids. To us, Snape being a good guy, and that whole conversation being misinterpreted, is obvious and expected. But if you view it from the POV of a not-too-observant kid, Snape really being good would be the "major twist". Him being evil would be the expected and obvious route.
In the end, Snape being evil would only be cool and unexpected in an extremely metaliterary sort of way, and as such it would actually be fairly dumb. It would detract heavily from the literary integrity of the series - good fiction isn't deliberately written ham-fistedly in order to fool your audience, and while Rowlings isn't a brilliant author, I think she's good enough to not pull of something that stupid.
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I would really like Snape to have double-crossed Dumbledore. It would be nice for the infallable uberwizard to have made a critical mistake.
But it ain't gonna happen. Rowlings has gone out of her way to write the encounter between Snape and Dumbledore to appear as if Snape was evil. Yes, it's obvious, but it's a book for kids. To us, Snape being a good guy, and that whole conversation being misinterpreted, is obvious and expected. But if you view it from the POV of a not-too-observant kid, Snape really being good would be the "major twist". Him being evil would be the expected and obvious route.
In the end, Snape being evil would only be cool and unexpected in an extremely metaliterary sort of way, and as such it would actually be fairly dumb. It would detract heavily from the literary integrity of the series - good fiction isn't deliberately written ham-fistedly in order to fool your audience, and while Rowlings isn't a brilliant author, I think she's good enough to not pull of something that stupid.
If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Thinking about it, Dumbledore is probably the most innocent character in the book; his greatest weakness is that he wants to believe that humanity is fundamentally good, and that there is some worth within everyone. It seems like he had no real reason to trust Snape, apparent betrayal of the Death Eaters or not; he trusted him simply because he couldn't bring himself not to. Up to this point, the series was training us to think like Dumbledore, which was what made Snape's betrayal so shocking, even though we were warned about it at the beginning of the book.
So yes, it's cool in an extremely metaliterary sort of way. I don't necessarily think that's dumb. Having him turn out to have been good all along would not only be yanking our chains even further without any good literary purpose, it would completely remove the power of the HBP's ending.
When I was reading HBP, I was saying to myself over and over "Please let Snape be good, please let Dumbledor be right and Harry wrong."
For Dumbledor to be so acutely wrong about one of his trusted associates, undermines all of his wisdom.
I had given up hope that Snape could be anything other than an evil character by the end of the book.
But if he does turn out to be good.. well.. it had better be a fucking good explanation and he'd better have a key role in the final defeat of Voldemort.
When I was reading HBP, I was saying to myself over and over "Please let Snape be good, please let Dumbledor be right and Harry wrong."
For Dumbledor to be so acutely wrong about one of his trusted associates, undermines all of his wisdom.
I had given up hope that Snape could be anything other than an evil character by the end of the book.
But if he does turn out to be good.. well.. it had better be a fucking good explanation and he'd better have a key role in the final defeat of Voldemort.
It's been gone into a couple times in the thread already, so I won't repeat it. Suffice to say I will be very surprised if Snape turns out evil.
What if...Neville finds out about the prophecy and then he dissapears and decides he has to be
the one to kill Voldemort or die trying? Then Neville catches up to the Death Eaters somehow
and Snape gets him alone and manages to convince Neville that the prophecy means that Neville
must die so Snape can kill Voldemort, so Neville lets snape kill him. (of course he has lied at this point)
And now Snape believes he has destroyed the last obstacle to Voldemort.
How awesomely evil would this make snape?
It won't happen but it sounds cool
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ResIpsaLoquiturNot a grammar nazi, just alt-write.Registered Userregular
I would really like Snape to have double-crossed Dumbledore. It would be nice for the infallable uberwizard to have made a critical mistake.
But it ain't gonna happen. Rowlings has gone out of her way to write the encounter between Snape and Dumbledore to appear as if Snape was evil. Yes, it's obvious, but it's a book for kids. To us, Snape being a good guy, and that whole conversation being misinterpreted, is obvious and expected. But if you view it from the POV of a not-too-observant kid, Snape really being good would be the "major twist". Him being evil would be the expected and obvious route.
In the end, Snape being evil would only be cool and unexpected in an extremely metaliterary sort of way, and as such it would actually be fairly dumb. It would detract heavily from the literary integrity of the series - good fiction isn't deliberately written ham-fistedly in order to fool your audience, and while Rowlings isn't a brilliant author, I think she's good enough to not pull of something that stupid.
The predictible ending, which if this is ultimately a kid's book is what we will see, should be that Harry defeats Voldy and that Dumbledore's wisdom re: Snape will be borne out.
JKR leaves the door open, technically, for Snape to come out evil, but as an underling of Voldy, it just seems unsatisfying in a great many ways. I maintain that the "Snape ends evil" twist that keeps our excitement and wonder up would be
if the great confrontation at the end was not Harry vs. Voldy, but Harry (or Draco, who is ripe for redemption) vs. Snape (with Snape performing the ulitmate double cross against Voldy).
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I would really like Snape to have double-crossed Dumbledore. It would be nice for the infallable uberwizard to have made a critical mistake.
But it ain't gonna happen. Rowlings has gone out of her way to write the encounter between Snape and Dumbledore to appear as if Snape was evil. Yes, it's obvious, but it's a book for kids. To us, Snape being a good guy, and that whole conversation being misinterpreted, is obvious and expected. But if you view it from the POV of a not-too-observant kid, Snape really being good would be the "major twist". Him being evil would be the expected and obvious route.
In the end, Snape being evil would only be cool and unexpected in an extremely metaliterary sort of way, and as such it would actually be fairly dumb. It would detract heavily from the literary integrity of the series - good fiction isn't deliberately written ham-fistedly in order to fool your audience, and while Rowlings isn't a brilliant author, I think she's good enough to not pull of something that stupid.
The predictible ending, which if this is ultimately a kid's book is what we will see, should be that Harry defeats Voldy and that Dumbledore's wisdom re: Snape will be borne out.
JKR leaves the door open, technically, for Snape to come out evil, but as an underling of Voldy, it just seems unsatisfying in a great many ways. I maintain that the "Snape ends evil" twist that keeps our excitement and wonder up would be
if the great confrontation at the end was not Harry vs. Voldy, but Harry (or Draco, who is ripe for redemption) vs. Snape (with Snape performing the ulitmate double cross against Voldy).
Look at the cover of the damn book.
Harry and Voldemort on the same side facing what seems to be a common enemy. Hmmm...who could that be?
The covers for all of the books thus far show important spoiler-tastic scenes from the book. Just look at the cover of the last book and you already know what happens.
Lots of different covers for different regions. Jacket for UK kids edition has what looks like Harry busting into a vault with treasure and what may possibly be a Stargate in the background. Perhaps JK is considering a crossover? The point here is the covers have always been ambiguous, and only after they have been read could you make sense of them.
The UK Adult edition is even less helpful. It just shows the locket.
I think that, as a character, Snape is about three billion times more interesting as someone who does bad things for good reasons then as someone who does bad things for bad reasons. I always thought that Snape was by far the most interesting character in the books. It would be a shame if he turned out to be Generic Bad Guy #1366.
If you really want to say, "ZOMG HARRY AND VOLDEMORT FIGHTING THE SAME ENEMY" then I want to know what exactly gives you that idea. Their hands are both raise, Harry looks like he's about to fucking giver service in a volleyball game; OR about to smash the last fucking Horcrux. If you look at Voldemort it looks like he's holding his hand out to stop something.
If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Only if you consider "the twist is that there is no twist!" to be anything other than lame.
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If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Only if you consider "the twist is that there is no twist!" to be anything other than lame.
It's still a bit of a twist, if not purely because his allignment really isn't known. It's not like he's been made out to be evil through the whole series, he just really doesn't like Harry, but seems willing to begrudgingly protect him, which is most clear when -
- he's running away after having killed Dumbledore. He has an opportunity to actually kill Harry, but just fucks with him and tells him about the significance of Half-Blood Prince.
At least, that's how I remember it going. It's been a while, I'm only on #4 in my reread in preperation for Deathly Hallows.
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ResIpsaLoquiturNot a grammar nazi, just alt-write.Registered Userregular
It's still a bit of a twist, if not purely because his allignment really isn't known. It's not like he's been made out to be evil through the whole series, he just really doesn't like Harry, but seems willing to begrudgingly protect him, which is most clear when -
- he's running away after having killed Dumbledore. He has an opportunity to actually kill Harry, but just fucks with him and tells him about the significance of Half-Blood Prince.
At least, that's how I remember it going. It's been a while, I'm only on #4 in my reread in preperation for Deathly Hallows.
Watch your spoiler tags, you used a /quote by accident.
And I agree with you,
the interaction between harry and snape points very strongly toward snape not being on Voldy's side.
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Shit, yeah, thanks. I do that all the time, but I usually catch myself.
Anyways -
- that could be construed two ways. Either Snape's going to use Harry, which would make sense given Snape's been in a position of lackey or second banana most of his life. When he's not in that role, he's taking the brunt end of the stick from people like James and Sirius. If he uses Harry, we're back to the whole Snape-betrays-Voldemort theory where he tries to become the paragon of evil. If he doesn't use Harry, and instead helps him and the MoM and the good folks, well, it means that I'll have had a reason for liking Snap all this time other than, "Hey, it's Alan Rickman!"
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Only if you consider "the twist is that there is no twist!" to be anything other than lame.
So you feel that a plot twist (and not just any plot twist, one involving Snape being good) is mandatory? Plot twists just don't work like that.
As others have pointed out, Snape has been painted as being ostensibly evil, with enough "subtle" clues here and there - his faux-pursuit of Harry at the end of HBP, for example - to illustrate that he's not really evil. None of those clues make any sense if he actually is evil. They're just random stupid bits. If he's evil and is working for Voldy, why the fuck doesn't he just waste Harry? Suddenly, we have plot holes big enough to pilot a flying mugglemobile through.
Which is why I referred to Snape being evil only being a sensible twist in a meta-literary fashion. Rowling's handling of the character has been hamfisted, but it's been cohesive and sensical. If suddenly Snape really is evil, then events like the above make no sense, the work becomes largely inconsistent, and the integrity of the entire character arc falls apart. All so Rowling can pull a massive "Gotcha!" on the internet's Harry Potter community. It would be retarded. Telegraphing a twist and then having the twist be the lack of a twist is dumb.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Only if you consider "the twist is that there is no twist!" to be anything other than lame.
So you feel that a plot twist (and not just any plot twist, one involving Snape being good) is mandatory? Plot twists just don't work like that.
As others have pointed out, Snape has been painted as being ostensibly evil, with enough "subtle" clues here and there - his faux-pursuit of Harry at the end of HBP, for example - to illustrate that he's not really evil. None of those clues make any sense if he actually is evil. They're just random stupid bits. If he's evil and is working for Voldy, why the fuck doesn't he just waste Harry? Suddenly, we have plot holes big enough to pilot a flying mugglemobile through.
Which is why I referred to Snape being evil only being a sensible twist in a meta-literary fashion. Rowling's handling of the character has been hamfisted, but it's been cohesive and sensical. If suddenly Snape really is evil, then events like the above make no sense, the work becomes largely inconsistent, and the integrity of the entire character arc falls apart. All so Rowling can pull a massive "Gotcha!" on the internet's Harry Potter community. It would be retarded. Telegraphing a twist and then having the twist be the lack of a twist is dumb.
Thats... really not how the Snape thing is playing out. It's not supposed to be a "twist." Snape had done things that imply that he's a badguy and he's done things that imply that he's a good guy. Both answers are possible. It isn't supposed to be a twist so much as it'll be a revelation that sheds light into his past actions in the book, and possibly how he will help/hinder Harry in his quest.
yea what if we never find out if hes evil or not. that could be awesome.
I think these are the best possible outcomes, from a literary perspective.
We have a twist in the first that can be made sensible, even with everything from the first six books. With the second, such an outcome is probable; if Snape dies in a battle where Harry isn't sure who Snape was helping, or if Snape was the victim of a trap set up by Voldy to protect a Horcrux, it could be left utterly unclear whose side Snape was on.
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Yeah, I absolutely agree that the best outcome would either be Snape betraying both sides, or his loyalty being left ambiguous. You could say he's good, evil, or a lone wolf and you'd have a solid argument. I just can't believe this hadn't occurred to me until someone brought it up. It's my new favorite theory.
Gentlemen, please humor me for a moment and consider a proposition.
Severus Snape is the one foretold by the prophecy.
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Now allow me to break this down:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
When I think of prophecy in literature I think of Macbeth and Oedipus. What happened in Macbeth? There was a prophecy that clearly meant one thing (Harry) but actually meant something entirely different (Snape).
At the time those very words were being spoken by Trelawney there happened to be two people approaching her and Dumbledore. Snape was at the door listening to the revelation while the barman (Dumbledore's brother) was after him trying to chase him off. So there we have people fast approaching a not so obvious interpretation of the prophecy.
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
I believe it was said at one point that Voldemort did look upon Snape as his equal. This I can't verify. And I do know that he has a power that the dark lord knows not: occlemacy. Or whatever that was called.
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies
Now this bit is said to specifically target Harry (Or Neville) but I find it is also open to interpretation. Why does the seventh month have to literally mean the end of the seventh month? It doesn't. That month is July. And from some googling I found that the flower of july is the lily. The lily? Lilly. As Lilly dies the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be "born." Again not literally born but it is at this point that Snape shifted alliances from Voldy to Dumbledore and co.
And anyone who paid attention to the flashbacks in the books can tell Snape wanted in Lilly's pants.
I admit this is unlikely but it could all be correct. I find the interpretation of the "approaching" part of the prophecy to be the most convincing. However, that means either Snape could be The One or Dumbledore's brother could be The One.
Gentlemen, please humor me for a moment and consider a proposition.
Severus Snape is the one foretold by the prophecy.
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Now allow me to break this down:
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
When I think of prophecy in literature I think of Macbeth and Oedipus. What happened in Macbeth? There was a prophecy that clearly meant one thing (Harry) but actually meant something entirely different (Snape).
At the time those very words were being spoken by Trelawney there happened to be two people approaching her and Dumbledore. Snape was at the door listening to the revelation while the barman (Dumbledore's brother) was after him trying to chase him off. So there we have people fast approaching a not so obvious interpretation of the prophecy.
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
I believe it was said at one point that Voldemort did look upon Snape as his equal. This I can't verify. And I do know that he has a power that the dark lord knows not: occlemacy. Or whatever that was called.
Well, 1. Voldemort doesn't consider anyone his equal, with the possible exception of Dumbledore (But even then, I bet he considers himself ultimately superior). Certainly not any of his Death Eaters. Marking Harry was a complete accident.
Also, Voldemort is an accomplished Occlumancer, as mentioned by Dumbledore near the beginnign of the six book that he suspects Voldemort was using it so Harry wouldn't be able to tap into his mind anymore.
I would kinda prefer that Snape isn't really good or evil- he's just a guy trying to do what he can in the world. It's really a better moral than anything else, because there isn't a lot of true good vs. evil in the world, with many more shades of gray.
Ok, enough of being reasonable, time for a crazy theory.
Did anyone else notice how Snape never really demonstrated the type of non-potion related magical prowess he shows at the end of HBP until that very moment?
Which happens to have been just seconds after the most powerful wizard in the world has died?
There's two ways I can think of this being relevant- One, somehow Dumbledore and Snape switch bodies at the last moment. This way, Snape makes the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good, and Dumbledore is in a position of trust, all the better from which to foil Voldy's plans.
Two, Dumbledore's figured out a way to transfer power Highlander style, and had this contingency plan in order to give Snape the ability to save the day.
The first idea was the one that occurred to me first, but the second is probably more likely (as likely as these kinda things are going to get) because of the portrait in the office.
I would kinda prefer that Snape isn't really good or evil- he's just a guy trying to do what he can in the world. It's really a better moral than anything else, because there isn't a lot of true good vs. evil in the world, with many more shades of gray.
Ok, enough of being reasonable, time for a crazy theory.
Did anyone else notice how Snape never really demonstrated the type of non-potion related magical prowess he shows at the end of HBP until that very moment?
Which happens to have been just seconds after the most powerful wizard in the world has died?
There's two ways I can think of this being relevant- One, somehow Dumbledore and Snape switch bodies at the last moment. This way, Snape makes the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good, and Dumbledore is in a position of trust, all the better from which to foil Voldy's plans.
Two, Dumbledore's figured out a way to transfer power Highlander style, and had this contingency plan in order to give Snape the ability to save the day.
The first idea was the one that occurred to me first, but the second is probably more likely (as likely as these kinda things are going to get) because of the portrait in the office.
As far as I can tell magical power doesent really seem to work the way in Harry Potter as it does in some fantasy worlds. Magic seems to be a lot more about how much you know and how fast you can think on your feet and apply it than anything else, theres no Dragonball z/comic book type power levels thing going on. The fact that Snape, a Professor at a magical college could whip Harry in a duel doesnt really speak anything about the power of either involved.
Well, 1. Voldemort doesn't consider anyone his equal, with the possible exception of Dumbledore (But even then, I bet he considers himself ultimately superior). Certainly not any of his Death Eaters. Marking Harry was a complete accident.
Also, Voldemort is an accomplished Occlumancer, as mentioned by Dumbledore near the beginnign of the six book that he suspects Voldemort was using it so Harry wouldn't be able to tap into his mind anymore.
Sir, yes he has that power. That has nothing to do with what I said. It is stated that he does not know Snape also has that power. Also, having only read each book one time I can't quote it or anything here. But I am almost certain in the sixth book there was a moment where Voldemort and Snape had a circle jerk. He saw Snape above all his other death eaters, etc.
This would especially be reinforced after Snape killing Dumbledore. Something Voldemort could never do.
Would the black mark that the Death Eaters get on their wrists count as Voldy marking his equal? Maybe not necessarily his equal, but close enough? It's not like he intended to scar Harry, although he did mark Snape on purpose. And they call it His mark, so it's not like it's just some random symbol they adopted.
I'm not so sure I believe this theory, but that might lend more credence to it.
I would kinda prefer that Snape isn't really good or evil- he's just a guy trying to do what he can in the world. It's really a better moral than anything else, because there isn't a lot of true good vs. evil in the world, with many more shades of gray.
Ok, enough of being reasonable, time for a crazy theory.
Did anyone else notice how Snape never really demonstrated the type of non-potion related magical prowess he shows at the end of HBP until that very moment?
What, besides inventing a new spell that cuts dudes open? I'd say that's pretty slick. Certainly he was best with potions, but it's stated in the books that skill with potions really only requires you to be meticulous and a logical thinker, which most wizards aren't. Snape obviously is, and those qualities would carry over into his other spell abilities.
so i think most of the subtle clues hint at nape being good. at the end of GOF, when dumbledore is telling everyone what to do, he asks snape if he is ready to tackle the hardships of his role.
a couple other times he argues with dumbledore about not wanting to continue which he is told to get over it and do his role which he agreed to. it all makes him look like he needs to do something terrible, ie kill the man who trusted him and got him working again after being a death eater. it all goes with harry needing dumbledore to die so he can proceed and fulfil his life goal. ala star wars etc.
i personally think it will be hagrid or weasley parents dying. harry always seems to lose his father figures.
i think the best arguement for harry being a horcrux is if you were voldermort and heard this kid was going to be your downfall, what would you do, put a little bit of your soul into your foe so even if he defeats you, you will still survive. no one knows what curse was used on harry, every one assumes it was the killing curse, maybe it was the one to make a horcrux.
i like the theory of the amulet being in the black house as the one they found but couldn't open, i missed that reading it recently
I believe the person that JK is going to kill is going to hit the heart, I think she is going for a tear-jerker here. So I agree with either Hagrid or Weasley parents dying.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited June 2007
All of the following are True Facts of which you must all become aware:
OK, first;
Snape isn't even in the last book; his loyalty will remain permanently ambiguous for all time (JKR is laughing at you right now).
Second;
Voldemort is actually the Master in disguise; he's been on Earth looking for a way to gain back his lost regenerations all this time. Also, the reason Snape isn't in the book is that VoldeMaster shrunk him to the size of a doll and put him on a shelf somewhere, then forgot he was there.
Actually (random speculation time), wouldn't it be awesome if Harry's wand were the last Horcrux?
That's like a totally free cinematic moment as Harry breaks his wand over the smoking corpse of Voldemort-clone number six.
Either that or he runs into the problem that he can't kill Voldemort using his own wand 'cause then he'd just pop out of the wand again.
Or, just for fun, make Fawkes a Horcrux; nothing quite like having an unkillable creature as the last repository of your soul...
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As for Harry being a horcrux, I think it's extremely likely. I've seen alot of things pointed out and wanted to mention his being able to speak parseltongue as well. OR it could just be that his scar is the horcrux.
As for either Sirious or Dumbeledore coming back it's highly unlikely. It wouldn't fit with the development of myth that the stories have been following. Traditionally myths require the apprentice to have to separate from his mentors to grow and it's usually a painful experience. Of course there have been exceptions; Gandalf and Obi-Wan but neither were really 100% the same person and in the case of Galdalf, Frodo still thought he was dead until after the ring was destroyed.
The second time I read through HBP I had the theory in mind and Slughorns exact words are something like "Theres a spell or something, dont ask me I dont know exactly" so we dont really know. If the spell has to be cast before avada kedavra, or at the same time its very possible Harry is an accidental horcrux, if after, then no.
Regardless or whether Harry is or not I'm pretty certain Nagini isnt. Before Dumbledore says thats what he's speculating he goes out of his way to state "But bear in mind I might be really, really wrong" throwing in that kind of disclaimer when Dumbledore can typically be taken to be right about most things is a big alarm bell. Ithink Nagini is a red herring.
But it ain't gonna happen. Rowlings has gone out of her way to write the encounter between Snape and Dumbledore to appear as if Snape was evil. Yes, it's obvious, but it's a book for kids. To us, Snape being a good guy, and that whole conversation being misinterpreted, is obvious and expected. But if you view it from the POV of a not-too-observant kid, Snape really being good would be the "major twist". Him being evil would be the expected and obvious route.
In the end, Snape being evil would only be cool and unexpected in an extremely metaliterary sort of way, and as such it would actually be fairly dumb. It would detract heavily from the literary integrity of the series - good fiction isn't deliberately written ham-fistedly in order to fool your audience, and while Rowlings isn't a brilliant author, I think she's good enough to not pull of something that stupid.
If Snape actually being evil is dumb and him being good would be the correct way to write the book, then isn't him being evil then a legitimate twist?
Thinking about it, Dumbledore is probably the most innocent character in the book; his greatest weakness is that he wants to believe that humanity is fundamentally good, and that there is some worth within everyone. It seems like he had no real reason to trust Snape, apparent betrayal of the Death Eaters or not; he trusted him simply because he couldn't bring himself not to. Up to this point, the series was training us to think like Dumbledore, which was what made Snape's betrayal so shocking, even though we were warned about it at the beginning of the book.
So yes, it's cool in an extremely metaliterary sort of way. I don't necessarily think that's dumb. Having him turn out to have been good all along would not only be yanking our chains even further without any good literary purpose, it would completely remove the power of the HBP's ending.
For Dumbledor to be so acutely wrong about one of his trusted associates, undermines all of his wisdom.
I had given up hope that Snape could be anything other than an evil character by the end of the book.
But if he does turn out to be good.. well.. it had better be a fucking good explanation and he'd better have a key role in the final defeat of Voldemort.
One mistake is make all mistake...apparently?
It's been gone into a couple times in the thread already, so I won't repeat it. Suffice to say I will be very surprised if Snape turns out evil.
the one to kill Voldemort or die trying? Then Neville catches up to the Death Eaters somehow
and Snape gets him alone and manages to convince Neville that the prophecy means that Neville
must die so Snape can kill Voldemort, so Neville lets snape kill him. (of course he has lied at this point)
And now Snape believes he has destroyed the last obstacle to Voldemort.
How awesomely evil would this make snape?
It won't happen but it sounds cool
The predictible ending, which if this is ultimately a kid's book is what we will see, should be that Harry defeats Voldy and that Dumbledore's wisdom re: Snape will be borne out.
JKR leaves the door open, technically, for Snape to come out evil, but as an underling of Voldy, it just seems unsatisfying in a great many ways. I maintain that the "Snape ends evil" twist that keeps our excitement and wonder up would be
Look at the cover of the damn book.
The covers for all of the books thus far show important spoiler-tastic scenes from the book. Just look at the cover of the last book and you already know what happens.
Looks more like
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The UK Adult edition is even less helpful. It just shows the locket.
All covers: http://gallery.leakynews.com/dh
Also, according to Wikipedia, the US and UK editions have over a 100 page difference. WTF. Anyone know why this should be the case?
Only if you consider "the twist is that there is no twist!" to be anything other than lame.
So you feel that a plot twist (and not just any plot twist, one involving Snape being good) is mandatory? Plot twists just don't work like that.
It's still a bit of a twist, if not purely because his allignment really isn't known. It's not like he's been made out to be evil through the whole series, he just really doesn't like Harry, but seems willing to begrudgingly protect him, which is most clear when -
At least, that's how I remember it going. It's been a while, I'm only on #4 in my reread in preperation for Deathly Hallows.
Watch your spoiler tags, you used a /quote by accident.
And I agree with you,
Anyways -
As others have pointed out, Snape has been painted as being ostensibly evil, with enough "subtle" clues here and there - his faux-pursuit of Harry at the end of HBP, for example - to illustrate that he's not really evil. None of those clues make any sense if he actually is evil. They're just random stupid bits. If he's evil and is working for Voldy, why the fuck doesn't he just waste Harry? Suddenly, we have plot holes big enough to pilot a flying mugglemobile through.
Which is why I referred to Snape being evil only being a sensible twist in a meta-literary fashion. Rowling's handling of the character has been hamfisted, but it's been cohesive and sensical. If suddenly Snape really is evil, then events like the above make no sense, the work becomes largely inconsistent, and the integrity of the entire character arc falls apart. All so Rowling can pull a massive "Gotcha!" on the internet's Harry Potter community. It would be retarded. Telegraphing a twist and then having the twist be the lack of a twist is dumb.
Dumber than Shamylan.
I think these are the best possible outcomes, from a literary perspective.
Severus Snape is the one foretold by the prophecy.
Now allow me to break this down:
When I think of prophecy in literature I think of Macbeth and Oedipus. What happened in Macbeth? There was a prophecy that clearly meant one thing (Harry) but actually meant something entirely different (Snape).
At the time those very words were being spoken by Trelawney there happened to be two people approaching her and Dumbledore. Snape was at the door listening to the revelation while the barman (Dumbledore's brother) was after him trying to chase him off. So there we have people fast approaching a not so obvious interpretation of the prophecy.
I believe it was said at one point that Voldemort did look upon Snape as his equal. This I can't verify. And I do know that he has a power that the dark lord knows not: occlemacy. Or whatever that was called.
Now this bit is said to specifically target Harry (Or Neville) but I find it is also open to interpretation. Why does the seventh month have to literally mean the end of the seventh month? It doesn't. That month is July. And from some googling I found that the flower of july is the lily. The lily? Lilly. As Lilly dies the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be "born." Again not literally born but it is at this point that Snape shifted alliances from Voldy to Dumbledore and co.
And anyone who paid attention to the flashbacks in the books can tell Snape wanted in Lilly's pants.
I admit this is unlikely but it could all be correct. I find the interpretation of the "approaching" part of the prophecy to be the most convincing. However, that means either Snape could be The One or Dumbledore's brother could be The One.
I could be insane.
Well, 1. Voldemort doesn't consider anyone his equal, with the possible exception of Dumbledore (But even then, I bet he considers himself ultimately superior). Certainly not any of his Death Eaters. Marking Harry was a complete accident.
Also, Voldemort is an accomplished Occlumancer, as mentioned by Dumbledore near the beginnign of the six book that he suspects Voldemort was using it so Harry wouldn't be able to tap into his mind anymore.
Yes.
Ok, enough of being reasonable, time for a crazy theory.
Did anyone else notice how Snape never really demonstrated the type of non-potion related magical prowess he shows at the end of HBP until that very moment?
Which happens to have been just seconds after the most powerful wizard in the world has died?
There's two ways I can think of this being relevant- One, somehow Dumbledore and Snape switch bodies at the last moment. This way, Snape makes the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good, and Dumbledore is in a position of trust, all the better from which to foil Voldy's plans.
Two, Dumbledore's figured out a way to transfer power Highlander style, and had this contingency plan in order to give Snape the ability to save the day.
The first idea was the one that occurred to me first, but the second is probably more likely (as likely as these kinda things are going to get) because of the portrait in the office.
As far as I can tell magical power doesent really seem to work the way in Harry Potter as it does in some fantasy worlds. Magic seems to be a lot more about how much you know and how fast you can think on your feet and apply it than anything else, theres no Dragonball z/comic book type power levels thing going on. The fact that Snape, a Professor at a magical college could whip Harry in a duel doesnt really speak anything about the power of either involved.
Sir, yes he has that power. That has nothing to do with what I said. It is stated that he does not know Snape also has that power. Also, having only read each book one time I can't quote it or anything here. But I am almost certain in the sixth book there was a moment where Voldemort and Snape had a circle jerk. He saw Snape above all his other death eaters, etc.
This would especially be reinforced after Snape killing Dumbledore. Something Voldemort could never do.
I'm not so sure I believe this theory, but that might lend more credence to it.
What, besides inventing a new spell that cuts dudes open? I'd say that's pretty slick. Certainly he was best with potions, but it's stated in the books that skill with potions really only requires you to be meticulous and a logical thinker, which most wizards aren't. Snape obviously is, and those qualities would carry over into his other spell abilities.
a couple other times he argues with dumbledore about not wanting to continue which he is told to get over it and do his role which he agreed to. it all makes him look like he needs to do something terrible, ie kill the man who trusted him and got him working again after being a death eater. it all goes with harry needing dumbledore to die so he can proceed and fulfil his life goal. ala star wars etc.
i personally think it will be hagrid or weasley parents dying. harry always seems to lose his father figures.
i think the best arguement for harry being a horcrux is if you were voldermort and heard this kid was going to be your downfall, what would you do, put a little bit of your soul into your foe so even if he defeats you, you will still survive. no one knows what curse was used on harry, every one assumes it was the killing curse, maybe it was the one to make a horcrux.
i like the theory of the amulet being in the black house as the one they found but couldn't open, i missed that reading it recently
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OK, first;
Actually (random speculation time), wouldn't it be awesome if Harry's wand were the last Horcrux?
That's like a totally free cinematic moment as Harry breaks his wand over the smoking corpse of Voldemort-clone number six.
Either that or he runs into the problem that he can't kill Voldemort using his own wand 'cause then he'd just pop out of the wand again.
Or, just for fun, make Fawkes a Horcrux; nothing quite like having an unkillable creature as the last repository of your soul...
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