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[Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon] Some Must Choose
I also noticed the jousting tourney being excessively murderous and was annoyed by it. This isn't a gladiator event, it's noble sons knocking each other off horses for sport. They don't smash each other's faces in with hammers FFS. There are pleeenty of other places to put gratuitous violence that make more sense.
I enjoyed the rest of it other than the birthing scene though, and think I will greatly enjoy the series. I doubt they are going to make the same mistakes that so famously pissed off the fanbase the last couple seasons of GoT.
+2
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
+4
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Daemon probably gets away with a crowd cheer for targeting the horse on account of being who he is.
I'm not sure I would say any of the characters in LOTRs are particularly nuanced or flawed. Maybe Pippen and Merry show some of growth (no pun intended)?
Everybody else is basically just a one-dimension hero archetype. Even Boromir.
The characters in GoT are a lot more interesting imo.
A major theme (for middle school book reports) from the books is how the marginalized try to exercise power in an inherently unjust system and what that ends up looking like.
POV characters with multiple chapters:
Ned
Cat
Dany
Tyrion
Jon
Bran
Sansa
Arya
Theon
Davos
Jaime (post-maiming)
Sam
Cersei
Brienne
Aeron
Victarion
Arianne
Quentyn
Barristan
Connington
The vast majority of those characters are women or have a disability (in the eyes of Westeros). That's why the series is interesting, it's not an endless parade of stereotypical fantasy heroes without flaws like Aragorn.
even more than that, the marginalized/oppressed/less-than-men characters are regularly the best at what they're doing. Meanwhile the 'real men' are inevitably done in by their foibles.
a better finale might have neatly inverted this theme with Dany, but whoops
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
+4
MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
edited August 2022
GoT Book v Show:
Honestly I think the book ends with Dany still torching KL but it's after the White Walkers take it. Petty squabbles for the throne and lack of attention in the north brings the WW to Kings Landing, bypassing Winterfell, which is left relatively alone as long as there is a Stark there. KL gets sacked, Dany has to burn the city, etc.
It felt like all the pieces were there for that and then they jusy got abandoned for a big nothing.
Like, they said they knew how the books would end, they just... skipped a major part of the why.
MalReynolds on
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
+2
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
Honestly I think the book ends with Dany still torching KL but it's after the White Walkers take it. Petty squabbles for the throne and lack of attention in the north brings the WW to Kings Landing, bypassing Winterfell, which is left relatively alone as long as there is a Stark there. KL gets sacked, Dany has to burn the city, etc.
It felt like all the pieces were there for that and then they jusy got abandoned for a big nothing.
Like, they said they knew how the books would end, they just... skipped a major part of the why.
nah I do think Dany goes mad in the books also, but there will be lots of breathing room.
As weird as it is to say with an 8 season show, the final two seasons were painfully compressed.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Honestly I think the book ends with Dany still torching KL but it's after the White Walkers take it. Petty squabbles for the throne and lack of attention in the north brings the WW to Kings Landing, bypassing Winterfell, which is left relatively alone as long as there is a Stark there. KL gets sacked, Dany has to burn the city, etc.
It felt like all the pieces were there for that and then they jusy got abandoned for a big nothing.
Like, they said they knew how the books would end, they just... skipped a major part of the why.
nah I do think Dany goes mad in the books also, but there will be lots of breathing room.
As weird as it is to say with an 8 season show, the final two seasons were painfully compressed.
Ultimately it runs up against the same problem as in Kill Six Billion Demons - they who master the wheel cannot break it, and Dany mastered the wheel in order to wage her campaign. She was always just going to be another spin on it after a certain point.
Why are you using spoilers for regular GoT/ASoIaF stuff? Anyway, the whole 'breaking the wheel' thing that the show introduced was pretty stupid. For all of GRRM's talk about Aragorn's tax policies, ASoIaF has never been the kind of story to discuss the massive societal changes that are required to transition away from feudalism.
0
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I only meant tag F&B spoilers, the rest is fine.
0
MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
Preponderance of caution on my part, that's the only reason I spoilertagged that.
"A new take on the epic fantasy genre... Darkly comic, relatable characters... twisted storyline."
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
In the OG GOT tourney it was a huge scandal when the mountain went all aggro and wanted to fight the knight of flowers to the death.
Here it's like "sweep the legs? K"
I don't know when these books came out relative to the main GOT series but George clearly the lost the plot some time ago.
One of the criticisms of the first Dunk & Egg novella that I had seen was that there was a lot of "boring accurate jousting" to read through (like a story that takes place during a well detailed baseball game when the reader doesn't know or care about baseball). I think it's something that GRRM cares about, so I assume the dodgier stuff in this episode would be down to other creatives.
It's wild to me that people think it's boring. Jousting when done right is just as riveting as any other tournament arc, and in Westeros you get the extra politicking and intrigues on the side to add extra stakes and side plots for people who aren't the knights out on the pitch.
"Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
It's wild to me that people think it's boring. Jousting when done right is just as riveting as any other tournament arc, and in Westeros you get the extra politicking and intrigues on the side to add extra stakes and side plots for people who aren't the knights out on the pitch.
Listen, I didn't see Heath Ledger or Paul Bettany out there, it was pretty boring besides the single dismounted fight between Smith and future Mr. Fuckboy. But that's on the show runners, not the tournament.
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
+1
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
Still more introspection than book Faramir.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
He also refuses the ring, which is kinda a big deal
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
He also refuses the ring, which is kinda a big deal
Pfft like 5 people refuse the Ring. More people refuse to take the Ring from frodo than try to take it from him.
+7
Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
I don't think if we are doing GOT characters to LOTR movie, GOT are any more interesting or complex. They are just sort of shittier and selfish and mostly unable to put their personal needs to the side. Book LOTR and ASOIAF characters, then you got a case, but then the focus for those works are completely different, plot versus character
0
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Aragorn isn’t flawless, he’s just aware of his flaws and wisely avoids putting himself in situations where those would be a liability
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
He also refuses the ring, which is kinda a big deal
Pfft like 5 people refuse the Ring. More people refuse to take the Ring from frodo than try to take it from him.
That scene where Viserys warns Rhaenyra about Aegon's prophecy of the Long Night kind of soured me a little. Was that dagger on his hip supposed to be the one that Arya eventually uses to kill the Night King?
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
okay what you gotta know is that the long night will be one long night and that there will be a guy named the night man and if you kill him all the wights explode like he was a mario boss, so we need a child soldier to do a mario 64 triple jump and poke him in the tummy
That scene where Viserys warns Rhaenyra about Aegon's prophecy of the Long Night kind of soured me a little. Was that dagger on his hip supposed to be the one that Arya eventually uses to kill the Night King?
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
Yes.
They put that there, while he had the knife on him, specifically to tie to GoT. They were pretty proud of it in the BtS at the end of the ep.
That scene where Viserys warns Rhaenyra about Aegon's prophecy of the Long Night kind of soured me a little. Was that dagger on his hip supposed to be the one that Arya eventually uses to kill the Night King?
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
Yes.
They put that there, while he had the knife on him, specifically to tie to GoT. They were pretty proud of it in the BtS at the end of the ep.
Frankly, that’s the energy that makes me hesitant to buy in on the show. What an unnecessary way to immediately make this story feel smaller.
That scene where Viserys warns Rhaenyra about Aegon's prophecy of the Long Night kind of soured me a little. Was that dagger on his hip supposed to be the one that Arya eventually uses to kill the Night King?
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
Yes.
They put that there, while he had the knife on him, specifically to tie to GoT. They were pretty proud of it in the BtS at the end of the ep.
Frankly, that’s the energy that makes me hesitant to buy in on the show. What an unnecessary way to immediately make this story feel smaller.
I'm hoping that it's the beginning and end to the references, placed only to bridge the audience. I don't remember much of that sort of thing in the book.
It makes the Dance even more tragic because at some point the prophecy is lost, maybe then or maybe with rhaegar, who knows, all because this family is too busy fucking around and finding out
the end result of the prophecy being the night man sucks but I can separate the two concepts enough to enjoy it on its own terms
+2
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
That scene where Viserys warns Rhaenyra about Aegon's prophecy of the Long Night kind of soured me a little. Was that dagger on his hip supposed to be the one that Arya eventually uses to kill the Night King?
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
Yes.
They put that there, while he had the knife on him, specifically to tie to GoT. They were pretty proud of it in the BtS at the end of the ep.
Frankly, that’s the energy that makes me hesitant to buy in on the show. What an unnecessary way to immediately make this story feel smaller.
I'm hoping that it's the beginning and end to the references, placed only to bridge the audience. I don't remember much of that sort of thing in the book.
Yeah, the Previously On... segments in GoT did tend to beat you over the head with stuff that was going to be relevant to that episode.
If Viserys is right that Aegon had a dream about the White Walkers and that's why he did the conquest, that feels pretty week, given how prophecies have been handled elsewhere in the series. And makes Aegon more noble than feels right given stuff like the Field of Fire.
There's still a chance however that his dream was pretty vague, and it just gave him an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway. Like maybe he could have allied with the seven kingdoms to rally against them, but nope, ambition won out, his family had to have the glory. And then a few generations of Yitish whisper have distorted it into internal familial propaganda. We'll see.
Idk I just figured the norms and rules of tournies were different 200 years ago
The implication I took away was that after more than a half century of peace folks in westeros are ready to bash each other’s brains out at the slightest inducement
Also who says the world of ice and fire needs to reflect real world medieval history in every minute detail? Between the erratic seasons the dragons the blood magic the shape shifting assassins and ravens conveying information across the continent in days it’d be weird if things didn’t diverge here and there
It’s official: Game of Thrones is a bona fide franchise. HBO has just renewed House of the Dragon for a second season.
The move came relatively quickly following the series premiere of Dragon on Sunday, which delivered 10 million viewers overnight — an HBO record for a series opener and roughly on par with the premiere of Game of Thrones season six. Now HBO reports that in the days since the show’s premiere, the first episode’s viewership has climbed to 20 million viewers in the U.S. across linear, on demand and HBO Max platforms.
The renewal may not just be important for Dragon‘s future. HBO has at least seven Game of Thrones spinoff projects in development (four scripted, at least three animated). Dragon opening well enough to warrant a speedy second-season renewal could bode well for at least one other project getting an eventual series order.
“We are beyond proud of what the entire House of the Dragon team has accomplished with season one,” says Francesca Orsi, executive vp, HBO programming.
"I can’t get over just how much it looks like Matt Smith in a blonde wig," noted Honk when reached for comment.
"Matt Smith looks like a total dork," MegaMan001 added.
"Matt Smith has always looked like a total dork," Monwyn confirmed.
I feel like almost everyone that i saw recap the c section scene has it wrong. The scene was not "we can try to save only one, choose". It was "we can try to save one, or let them both die". He didnt really choose the baby over the wife, he made a difficult and non consensual call in the moment to perform a very painful and dangerous procedure likely to result in her death, instead of doing nothing with the likely result being both of their deaths.
I feel like almost everyone that i saw recap the c section scene has it wrong. The scene was not "we can try to save only one, choose". It was "we can try to save one, or let them both die". He didnt really choose the baby over the wife, he made a difficult and non consensual call in the moment to perform a very painful and dangerous procedure likely to result in her death, instead of doing nothing with the likely result being both of their deaths.
But that's exactly what the point was. It was "choose one or let them both die" and he chose the baby without even consulting the wife. He sacrificed her without her consent.
The implied alternative was to sacrifice the baby and save the wife. And since babies are already fragile as fuck and she was a grown adult, her chances of survival were probably much better.
RT800 on
0
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products, Transition Teamregular
I feel like almost everyone that i saw recap the c section scene has it wrong. The scene was not "we can try to save only one, choose". It was "we can try to save one, or let them both die". He didnt really choose the baby over the wife, he made a difficult and non consensual call in the moment to perform a very painful and dangerous procedure likely to result in her death, instead of doing nothing with the likely result being both of their deaths.
But that's exactly what the point was. It was "choose one or let them both die" and he chose the baby without even consulting the wife. He sacrificed her without her consent.
The implied alternative was to sacrifice the baby and save the wife. And since babies are already fragile as fuck and she was a grown adult, her chances of survival were probably much better.
If that was an option the Maester did not present it as such.
It really seemed like the Maester said the wife was already dead / on her way. The only one who could maybe get saved was the child but it would be an extreme act.
Might need to watch the conversation again but I really do not think anyone in the room was saying there was anything they could do for the queen.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
+4
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
It seemed like all the other failed pregnancies had already taken a toll on her, so she wasn't expected to survive, regardless.
Maester: "During a difficult birth, it sometimes becomes necessary for the father to make an impossible choice."
Viserys: "Well, speak it."
Maester: "To sacrifice one... or to lose them both. There is a chance that we can save the child. A technique is taught at the Citadel which involves cutting directly into the womb to free the infant. But the resulting blood loss..."
Viserys: "Seven hells, Melos! ...you can save the child?"
Maester: "We must either act now, or leave it with the gods."
I can see how the transcript might leave some wiggle room for interpretation, but the way it was presented seemed far more sinister than "she was going to die anyway". His intense desire for a male heir and the fact that he didn't even bother to tell his wife what was going on make is pretty clear that they could've done more for her. If she was dead either way, why keep it from her?
And her weariness of pregnancy was because she was just tired of being pregnant and losing babies, not because she was definitely going to die if she gave birth again.
Idk I just figured the norms and rules of tournies were different 200 years ago
The show can differ from history, or course, but it also needs to make some sense.
You can’t have the very finite resource of noble’s children murdering one another on the regular at tournaments, it’s a pretty limited resource.
Like, if murdering people at tournaments is the norm, then the hand of the king’s son (from a hand of a king that is very interested in consolidating power under themself) doesn’t enter the tournament.
Posts
I enjoyed the rest of it other than the birthing scene though, and think I will greatly enjoy the series. I doubt they are going to make the same mistakes that so famously pissed off the fanbase the last couple seasons of GoT.
Everybody else is basically just a one-dimension hero archetype. Even Boromir.
The characters in GoT are a lot more interesting imo.
even more than that, the marginalized/oppressed/less-than-men characters are regularly the best at what they're doing. Meanwhile the 'real men' are inevitably done in by their foibles.
a better finale might have neatly inverted this theme with Dany, but whoops
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It felt like all the pieces were there for that and then they jusy got abandoned for a big nothing.
Like, they said they knew how the books would end, they just... skipped a major part of the why.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
As weird as it is to say with an 8 season show, the final two seasons were painfully compressed.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
//
One of the criticisms of the first Dunk & Egg novella that I had seen was that there was a lot of "boring accurate jousting" to read through (like a story that takes place during a well detailed baseball game when the reader doesn't know or care about baseball). I think it's something that GRRM cares about, so I assume the dodgier stuff in this episode would be down to other creatives.
Listen, I didn't see Heath Ledger or Paul Bettany out there, it was pretty boring besides the single dismounted fight between Smith and future Mr. Fuckboy. But that's on the show runners, not the tournament.
The only flaw he recognizes in the book is failed leadership of the fellowship after Moria and yet he still attempts to establish an absolute monarchy under his rule.
Still more introspection than book Faramir.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
He also refuses the ring, which is kinda a big deal
Pfft like 5 people refuse the Ring. More people refuse to take the Ring from frodo than try to take it from him.
Just such epic portends for a battle-to-come that reminds me of how badly said battle was adapted.
Yes.
Frankly, that’s the energy that makes me hesitant to buy in on the show. What an unnecessary way to immediately make this story feel smaller.
I'm hoping that it's the beginning and end to the references, placed only to bridge the audience. I don't remember much of that sort of thing in the book.
the end result of the prophecy being the night man sucks but I can separate the two concepts enough to enjoy it on its own terms
Yeah, the Previously On... segments in GoT did tend to beat you over the head with stuff that was going to be relevant to that episode.
There's still a chance however that his dream was pretty vague, and it just gave him an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway. Like maybe he could have allied with the seven kingdoms to rally against them, but nope, ambition won out, his family had to have the glory. And then a few generations of Yitish whisper have distorted it into internal familial propaganda. We'll see.
Also who says the world of ice and fire needs to reflect real world medieval history in every minute detail? Between the erratic seasons the dragons the blood magic the shape shifting assassins and ravens conveying information across the continent in days it’d be weird if things didn’t diverge here and there
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/house-of-the-dragon-season-2-1235199922/
But that's exactly what the point was. It was "choose one or let them both die" and he chose the baby without even consulting the wife. He sacrificed her without her consent.
The implied alternative was to sacrifice the baby and save the wife. And since babies are already fragile as fuck and she was a grown adult, her chances of survival were probably much better.
If that was an option the Maester did not present it as such.
It really seemed like the Maester said the wife was already dead / on her way. The only one who could maybe get saved was the child but it would be an extreme act.
Might need to watch the conversation again but I really do not think anyone in the room was saying there was anything they could do for the queen.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Viserys: "Well, speak it."
Maester: "To sacrifice one... or to lose them both. There is a chance that we can save the child. A technique is taught at the Citadel which involves cutting directly into the womb to free the infant. But the resulting blood loss..."
Viserys: "Seven hells, Melos! ...you can save the child?"
Maester: "We must either act now, or leave it with the gods."
And her weariness of pregnancy was because she was just tired of being pregnant and losing babies, not because she was definitely going to die if she gave birth again.
The show can differ from history, or course, but it also needs to make some sense.
You can’t have the very finite resource of noble’s children murdering one another on the regular at tournaments, it’s a pretty limited resource.
Like, if murdering people at tournaments is the norm, then the hand of the king’s son (from a hand of a king that is very interested in consolidating power under themself) doesn’t enter the tournament.