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[D&D/d20 Discussion] The Everything Game
Denada
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For millions of years, humanity has relied on the humble d20 to resolve every manner of conflict imaginable. No other type of dice roll has the same kind of reliability, randomness, granularity, predictability, and probability as taking a single twenty-sided die, rolling it, and adding some other number to that number. Sometimes you subtract a number, but science has shown us that subtracting a number is actually the same thing as adding a negative number. Also, not adding anything is actually the same as adding zero, which is a number, so don't think you've found a loophole there. There's always adding.
Many companies and creators have come along over the years to harness the great and terrible power of the d20. There are probably as many d20-based games as there are atoms in the universe, but realistically there's no possible way to know that for sure. Anyway here are some d20 games:
In this thread we talk about D&D and all of the other games that are at least kinda like it. It's still mostly D&D discussion but it's all fair game here.
D&D/d20 Discussion Thread | Bread Space | One Eldritch Summer | I Want to Save the World but I'm Just a Level 1 Skeleton
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Thieves have their guilds, Clerics their temples and shrines, rangers can set up a network of rangers.
Each class in a high level game then has some odd tricks to play, whether it is charms, teleportation or scrying for the casters vs blackmail, feudal obligations and access or being the first person to learn of everything important happening out in the wilderness. It also really helps the DM build out the world and opens up a ton of quick one shots that can be slotted in whilst you're writing the next big chapter of the campaign and gives the PCs some stuff to spend money on without wanting magic item shops.
Game host: Okay Saria, it’s your turn, what do you do?
Saria: I go berserk, then I hit them with fire! Then I hit them with fire again!
Game host: Well I mean you’ve done that every turn so far, how about—
Saria: No. I hit them with fire two times.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Nice to see someone using Metamagic adept to reflavour Eldritch Blast
Been on an old school trip this month actually. I’m doodling away at a miniature roleplaying game I’m calling Hounskull (after the silly helmet).
My main through line is “What if abstract roleplaying skills switched to combat abilities when in combat?” How that works I have no idea. But it’d be nice to have +2 Acrobatics = Can move through occupied spaces.
They also introduced martial practices in one book, which were basically a non-magical counterpart to rituals, but they never expanded on them and they kind of stepped on the toes of skills.
That's not a very good solution for the same reason that long rests regaining resources aren't a very good solution. It's up to the DM to decide whether 8 hours pass for free and thus overpower those who refill on resources constantly, or whether there's a real penalty for resting and you risk crippling the players who need those resources (or force them to agonize over every spell cast and slow down your game).
A DM could just decide that the hour it takes to cast a ritual is glossed over in one sentence, or they could roll 6 times to see if wandering monsters stroll by, depending on what's codified or their own preferences.
EDIT: Unrelated, but very good:
Does it get a little funky when your character can teleport around the battlefield in tactical play, but cannot (strictly speaking - you can actually get narrative abilites that let you do it) do that in narrative play? Sure, a bit. But there's plenty of ways to hand wave it, and ICON is again super explicit on the fact it is not trying to simulate everything - It's instead trying to be a good, robust game.
You're never going to solve the martial/caster divide until you actually have good answers for why there's a divide in the first place (Tonally, it's somewhat incoherent). Something like ICON's chapter system, or 4E's Tiers, where each band of levels represents an active step up in capability, including that of skills would be a starting point.
The other problem is the spell system is trying to do too many things, and DnD feels like it tends to operate on a restrictive rather than permissive model (That is "You can only do this thing if the text explicitly says you can", rather than "Oh, that sounds cool, go for it")
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This has huge narrative problems and also doesn’t work. Like. Why does a fighter get this? We know why a mage gets spells. Buy why the fighter? Why isn’t the mage granted a keep for their troubles? What if the mage lives at the “fighters” keep?
If there are no magic item shop and the wizard isn’t spending money scribing scrolls* then they have the same amount of money.
*because it’s only the wizard who really has this problem to any degree. They’re the only ones who get the world bending spells in a way that matter and even then… it’s a lot of cost and prep
Because in that edition, it's an inherent part of what training up in that class means and is building towards.
If it just happens out of nowhere, that's a fault of the roleplaying to take into account your own class features. It'd be the same as saying "I don't know why my rogue can backstab, my character has never trained in such underhanded tactics." It means whatever you're envisioning doesn't match with the core concept of "rogue" in that edition.
A wizard gets spells because they have spent a significant part of their life studying, at the exclusion of other pursuits. If their backstory doesn't support that, then they'll need to come up with a different rationalization. Likewise, a fighter gets a keep because they have spent a significant part of their life building connections and doing favors that will eventually result in getting a keep and a selection of loyal underlings. If their backstory doesn't support that...y'know.
Presumably, a wizard does not pursue a keep by default because as part of their study they've learned that it will not be necessary, since they will be able to cast Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion daily. Of course a player might go out of their way to accumulate wealth and buy one for themselves anyway, but that's outside of the scope of what is built into the class by design.
Putting this another way: there's an officially-licensed Alien horror RPG. Logically, the world of Alien should be much bigger than the subject matter of the films. You ought to be able to go and live a long and fruitful life on some far-flung world using all of the technology of the era. But because this game is about Alien, you're probably gonna play as a colonial marine or a Weyland stooge, and you're probably gonna encounter a xenomorph.
But why? How does it make sense that any stories told in this system will inevitably end up as a first or early encounter with something as rare as a xenomorph? Because the fiction bends to suit what the parameters of the setting require. Everyone at the table is buying in to this premise.
I feel like fighters getting keeps as a core class feature is similar to that. I think if it becomes hard to rationalize when the time comes, then you haven't properly laid the groundwork for what everyone has known would be coming for 8 levels.
It definitely supposed a pre-determined career path and had little concern for character specifics (to the point that Gygax's own thief character, Gord the Rogue, didn't feature his own guild in the fiction despite being "fights gods" powerful by the end of his career).
Yes but "i have a skill" is an integral part of a character. "i have money" is not.
So sorcerers should get keeps?
So your wizard can roleplay away your fighter bonuses?
This is, quite exactly, my point. If you're playing DnD then it does not make sense that fighters get keeps and that wizards are poor. This is not what you do in DnD. That is neither how the fluff nor the system works. You're over here saying "well this is an alien game but you can't play as a marine and there are no xenomorphs"
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The thing is that very few games i have actually played, including multiple games above 15 level feature situations in which the wizard (if we have one) "solved" the situation with a spell. And most of the times this happens this it isn't even a spell that you would write as being one of those.
"I have money" can absolutely be a defining factor of a character. Lots of games have explicit backgrounds for being poor or being rich. I liked the Noble talent in Star Wars Saga where every time you leveled up, you straight up got 5,000 credits x your level, due to ongoing long-term investments. That's a resource like any other, and it implies something about your character as codified by the rules. Bethesda's upcoming game Starfield has a trait to have living parents and a nice home you can go back and visit, but a portion of your money is deducted from what you earn that you send back to them. Even so, that's a mild form of wealth/value which defines part of your character. That's perfectly fine.
Having any resources your character can draw upon represents something you've invested your time in for a personal benefit. That doesn't have to be represented as a physical skill.
If the game designers believe a keep ought to be offered to sorcerers as a resource/balancing factor, then yes. If instead they think a sorcerer is roughly equivalent to a wizard in resources they can already draw on, then they can design the class in such a way to imply other pursuits that any representative sorc has invested their time in instead.
I mean, I assume you would agree with this. If you truly believe that all sorcs have been handed their magic on a silver platter and have therefore been able to spend their time doing whatever they want, then why would that be limited to social investments? Why aren't they all trained to backstab? Why haven't they picked up a bunch of martial training with various weapons? In the interest of balance, the fiction must dictate that no sorcerers spent their time picking up other classes' skills. Whether you like it or not, part of your backstory was decided for you. If you got your magic for free and have done no training, then inherently you must've wasted a lot of your time on frivolous pursuits, or been indisposed/languished, or lived a basic subsistence life, etc.
As much as any class can roleplay away others' bonuses. A fighter could "roleplay away" the wizard's bonuses by murdering him, or burning his spellbook, or stealing his component pouch, or asking the DM for permission to train in cantrips, or learn to cast from scrolls, etc. None of that is a good idea. Likewise, if it's not codified by the rules that the wizard attracts followers, then they're going to have to ask the DM's permission, and they're able to say no.
A good DM will work toward keeping any player from overshadowing another, and as discussed, the ability to automatically attract followers and form an organization for everyone but wizards is a powerful resource to draw on. If those rules go ignored by the DM or the player because they consider it too much of a headache to manage, then of course the martials will be lacking even more than they ought to be.
There are entire games built around the idea of having contacts and an organization you can draw on. If the rules don't say you get access to an organization, then good luck. If the DM gives you one anyway, then expect the other players to feel a bit miffed.
It is what happens in D&D if that's what's codified by the system. If the rules say that fighters get keeps and the wizards don't, then the fiction necessarily bends to support that. For the same reason the fiction bends to make sure xenomorphs show up in Alien, or all rogues know how to backstab, or all clerics serve a god, or all monks must maintain a vow of poverty. You can try to play as a greedy monk if you want, but that's not what the rules say.
When you say it's not how it works, that comes from a flawed understanding that the rules somehow promise that the DM won't be required to generate NPCs whole cloth to support a class feature. But they don't say that anywhere. You can look right under the fighter entry and see the class feature right there. That means that all fighters have been building up those connections in the course of their lives, whether it happened explicitly at the table or not, like every other class feature.
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Those dumb fuckers
- come up with a better term for the nonmagical counterpart of the spell attack (the ranged spell attack and melee spell attack), so that melee weapon attack and attack with a melee weapon will no longer be confusing.
- make the advantage / disadvantage situation with darkness spells better / more intuitive.
- make Surprise more easily grokked.
It's D&D so it'll come with a hefty dose of "you do what you want", but with a 'generic fantasy' setting the obvious thing is that it's easier to train fighters than wizards (even more so with Sorcerors). Again going back to the older editions once you start to make a name for yourself you're likely to get people seeking you out (students and scholars for the Wizards, smiths, squires and mercenaries for the Fighters).
It's up to the players to decide what they want to pursue this path, but the higher ranking NPCs will be taking note of this increasingly famous warrior, especially if they start to accumulate an armed company with them (even if the PCs are just happy to have these guys carry stuff and guard the camp/wagon whilst they go into the dungeon). They might not even care if the PCs turn the guys away, all the local noble needs to hear is that peasants are leaving the farm or foreign mercenaries have been seen crossing their lands to join this band the Party is now an issue they need to get out in front of.
Wizards and Sorcerers are a concern, you want them on your side but the threat of alchemical accidents, summoning gone awry and experimental magical mishaps. Give them a grant of land at the edge of your domain, away from the more valuable parts, appoint them 'Royal Astronomer' and send some peasants to build their tower/observatory like Tycho Brahe's island. By magic item shop I mean places that sell items, not jewellers and alchemists that sell components. Nothing wrong with the latter joining the observatory/academy to take the headache out of more common and some rarer components - but the books definitely work from the idea that you generally can't just buy items from a conventional trader and need to be earned through quests.
Clerics should hopefully be kept in check by their Order (who hopefully speak on the side of the Establishment), but if they're a new religion best get those heretics out from under the local's noses and treat them like wizards.
Rogues by nature don't attract as much attention, and we're not worried so much about them training up peasants with the basic weapons they likely know how to use already. The people who are interested in them are the thieves guilds and underground networks, or if they are a little more flashy and more swashbuckler than thief, then spymasters and nobles wanting to use their burgling talents against rivals. Their own version of the fighters stuff, but slightly different - more specialist goods and knowledge from outside the realm, rather than things from within.
Warriors however, can turn basic peasants into soldiers, perhaps even rivals to your knights. And the hero himself might be a rival to your champion. Grant of land and title makes them your man instead, and focuses their attention where you want it (the frontier perhaps). There's no problem with this being the party's base (near the tower and temple perhaps), but it's the fighter's fief so the bulk of the vassals, hirelings and useful craftsmen answer to the Fighter.
In short: as far as special non-combat abilities go for higher level characters
Wizards/Sorcerors/Warlocks: Spells
Clerics/Druids: Divine assistance, resurrection and healing.
Fighters/Barbarians: Anything available in your kingdom, connections with the local rulers.
Rogues/Bards: Exotics and things money can't normally buy
With the caveat that you can obviously shift things around if you're missing an archetype or split things up if you have multiples
edit: darkness and fog should just explicitly say that everyone attacks at normal unless they have a means to see through the effect. (or that everyone always attacks at disadvantage regardless of the mutual bonuses) Fog prevents enemies from seeing outside of it and casting targeted spells.
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Sailor-Drow-Warlock-Fathomless Patron = Underground pirate ship that can become a submarine
Urchin-Dragonborn-Fighter-Champion = Orphanage that is secretly a militia rebellion base
Courtesan-Warforged-Bard-College of Lore = Advisor to the king, work out of the castle but don’t own it
Edit: Though in any case if one player gets a fort while another gets a tower ten miles away that sounds more like retirement plans that something worth playing out. It’d be nicer to have the gang share one location, whatever that may be.
Myths and legends are replete with strong heroes, admittedly more than a few cunning ones too (but those guys are also often equally strong or good fighters).
Wizards and sorcerers are perhaps advisors or someone to be sought out for help on a quest, but rarely the main guy.
The common folk can imagine being a might hero, super strong with armour and weapons. They live a world of wolves, bandits and tax collectors where joining the army is a way out of that life. They're going to idolise the fighters rather than the wizards and lawyers as they understand how the former works and can see what they would do with that power. Peasants who dream of the latter are going to get shut down hard by elders who just need them to tend to the harvest and the temples that are keen a monopoly on miracles. Nobody wants more Warlocks.
The nobility almost certainly exist within some form of fuedalism, paying tribute to a larger power in goods or in soldiers. So more good soldiers is more of your own family you don't have to put in danger. Or if you dream of achieving glory and doing more than opening the village fete and judging pigs, you're probably going to see that pathway as earning it on the battlefield for the next rank up (or your father, if you are a prince). Again the clergy here are going to be on the look out for those more bookish scions to hoover up before they start flirting with becoming Warlocks to jump up a few ranks.
If you start letting magic users into governance, then that road only ends up with Sorcerer Kings, with half of the court turning into snakes any given day and with regular culls of children born any auspicious (or particularly and suspiciously inauspicious days).
And even if we take that to it's endgame, when the Undying King recognises our party for vanquishing the Red Queen and her Knights of Blood, the liche is going to give them a brief glimpse of the Last Remnant Of The Old Sun before charging the fighter to be his Arm and his Will over some part of his domain. Spell casters are a direct threat are thus assigned to the academy to teach, or to the temples to tend to the small folk. Fighters and Rogues are tasked with locating such gifted individuals and directing them to the suitable organisation.
The PCs will be on the clock to stop another world from being destroyed, plus I'm thinking of having one of the factions the PCs are supposed to recruit against the evil astral elf empire being there scavenging for anything useful, which will give them an additional reason to eventually leave unless they really want to let a world be destroyed.
Slot another convince or conquer ally faction in there perhaps, in case they decide that this world is the perfect rally point. Ticking clock vs last chance mechs etc
I also think I'm gonna have a giff bombard kitted-out with post apocalyptic tech randomly blow up during the final wildspace battle against the Astral elves, damaging whatever is within the blast.
Someone describing the way Dungeon World and other games from that ruleset work said something like "The game doesn't function based on the rules of reality. It functions on the rules of genre" and that struck me because I think that's largely true at least for the first version of d&d as well. Like when we modern people discuss why a fighter becomes a Lord and a wizard becomes the weird hermit or advisor we are kind of missing the point. The answer is that that is what you do. That dungeons and dragons is based on fantasy stories in which the gruff fighter is crowned king at the end. It's based on stories where a mysterious magical figure offers that king their support and strength. Fighters become Lords because that is what they do. Because those are the kinds of stories we were originally recreating.
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Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
From a rational perspective fighter are enemy number 1 to the peasants just because of how army logistics work.
You cannot March any army off logistics. You match an army off the production of the land and part of then job of the army is securing the production either via diplomacy(ideally for your own forces) or violence.
So the fighters are the ones who are quartered in your towns with kind of explicit warrant to take who and what they want when they’re on your side. And the violence to enforce it when they not