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Russias war crimes will continue until they get tossed out of [Ukraine]

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  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Jasconius wrote: »
    i dont think there's any reason to be outraged at these faux peace discussions

    there's a reason these people on the US side are not official in any capacity

    it is useful to know exactly where russia stands and what they are willing to even put on the table

    knowing the way russia operates, the reality is probably like 10x worse than whatever it is they're willing to say to an american diplomat

    therefore the fact that they are even willing to say "you know what how about just a DMZ" is already a huge walkback from last year and a sign that things are probably pretty bad for russia right now

    intel acquired, we can move on

    Maybe I'm just a shill for democracy, but personally I don't think unofficial diplomats should be a thing and would prefer they leave the negotiating to people that do have official capacity.

    They aren't diplomats. They are private actors shilling for other private actors. Backdoor diplomacy such as it is accepted is conducted by the military and the IC both of which are authorized to do it. You won't ever hear about it and they will not talk about it. Where it does happen among "business leaders" or "think tanks" it's either completely above board it's very hush hush.

    This isn't any of that. These are morons trying to stay relevant.

    Isn't also a violation of the Logan Act?
    No one has ever been convicted of a Logan Act violation, it isn't real.

    XNnw6Gk.jpg
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Jasconius wrote: »
    i dont think there's any reason to be outraged at these faux peace discussions

    there's a reason these people on the US side are not official in any capacity

    it is useful to know exactly where russia stands and what they are willing to even put on the table

    knowing the way russia operates, the reality is probably like 10x worse than whatever it is they're willing to say to an american diplomat

    therefore the fact that they are even willing to say "you know what how about just a DMZ" is already a huge walkback from last year and a sign that things are probably pretty bad for russia right now

    intel acquired, we can move on

    Maybe I'm just a shill for democracy, but personally I don't think unofficial diplomats should be a thing and would prefer they leave the negotiating to people that do have official capacity.

    They aren't diplomats. They are private actors shilling for other private actors. Backdoor diplomacy such as it is accepted is conducted by the military and the IC both of which are authorized to do it. You won't ever hear about it and they will not talk about it. Where it does happen among "business leaders" or "think tanks" it's either completely above board it's very hush hush.

    This isn't any of that. These are morons trying to stay relevant.

    Isn't also a violation of the Logan Act?

    Its one of those "technically, yes, but legally, probably no" situations. The Logan act is about negotiating with a foreign power that is in a dispute with the United States, and any good lawyer could probably argue that Russia's dispute is with Ukraine, not the US, and convince at least a few members of the jury to vote not guilty.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • hiraethhiraeth SpaceRegistered User regular
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWA4Y2xGJM

    Starts out talking about the AMX10 but later shifts to experiences in the counter offensive.

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  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    Somehow I suspect they will be far less "generous" when all those people suddenly want back out.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    Retasking navy resources to help tourists be tourists says a lot about the state of Russia's military prioritizing as well. Like, the correct response there is "what? no! vacation literally anywhere else, you fools! argh!"

    Meanwhile BBC brings us a crossover with the social media thread, reporting on a big increase in bluecheck accounts spreading Russian propaganda. Glancing at Twitter now and then even despite my much-reduced use of the site, I've noticed any Ukraine-themed hashtags are absolutely overwhelmed with that kind of thing now, while only a few weeks ago there was a variety of positions being thrown around. I have no idea if it's because of more people bailing on the site with the latest fiascos, or if the propagandists are just getting worse.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Russian Embassy in Canada just lays it out, because they got pissy at the Canadian equivalent of the Department of State showing all their atrocities:
    🇷🇺Special Military Operation will continue until it reaches its goals. Among them - demilitarization, denazification, securing Russian language rights, respect for human rights (ethnic rights including) and rights of the people’s and regions of what is still called Ukraine to govern themselves and choose their own future.

    #denaZification

    "What is still called Ukraine". And people wonder why the so-called negotiation tables keep failing.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    Love how they limited replies to the (zero) people mentioned in their tweet.

    Even there they're cowards.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Strikor wrote: »
    Somehow I suspect they will be far less "generous" when all those people suddenly want back out.

    When Ukraine eventually blows up the Kerch bridge and the siege starts, because that's the most likely way this is going to play out, Putin is going to milk those morons to try to get pity points. That's more of a long term plan though, the short term is that Putin cannot affort to admit (more) weakness, specially after the mutiny, so that's the largest priority of the Russian military.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Russia has a solution for the kilometers-long queues of cars trying to cross the Kerch Strait...

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/4/7409800/
    During the meeting, which was also attended by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Saveliev said that in the morning, he spoke with the Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation, Sergei Shoigu, and he promised "to provide, if necessary, 2 large landing craft, each of which can carry 40 cars".

    Retasking a couple LSTs to serve as ferries says a lot about the state of Russia's civilian infrastructure.

    It's the Russian Navy. It's not like they were gonna be doing anything else in the Black Sea.

  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Russia has a solution for the kilometers-long queues of cars trying to cross the Kerch Strait...

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/4/7409800/
    During the meeting, which was also attended by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Saveliev said that in the morning, he spoke with the Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation, Sergei Shoigu, and he promised "to provide, if necessary, 2 large landing craft, each of which can carry 40 cars".

    Retasking a couple LSTs to serve as ferries says a lot about the state of Russia's civilian infrastructure.

    It's the Russian Navy. It's not like they were gonna be doing anything else in the Black Sea.

    Catching fire and sinking isn't *nothing*!

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    El Skid wrote: »
    The very best thing the international community can do is tell Russia to leave Ukraine (all of it) and return all Ukrainian citizens… and when that’s done talks to end sanctions can begin.

    No throwing Russia a bone, no negotiating to keep any of the territory they’ve seized, no cease fires or treaties until the above is done.

    Russia started this and has the means to stop it, force them to come out of this with nothing so they don’t ever try this again.

    This.

    Russia can not under any circumstances come out of this with anything. Not Kherson, not Zhaporisia. not Donbas, not Luhansk, not crimea and not the countless thousands abducted.

    The eat their shitty losses and have it both clearly communicated to them and internalized that they are the sick man of europe.

    Well, they can have some things. They can have every single person who either immigrated to eastern Ukraine from Russia, lives in Ukraine and likes Russia, or supported the Russian invasion in any way. They can all go back to Putin.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited July 2023
    Edit: Regrettable!

    OneAngryPossum on
  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWA4Y2xGJM

    Starts out talking about the AMX10 but later shifts to experiences in the counter offensive.

    I'm not as familiar with this particular area of things, but how does the AMX10 compare to the M1128 version of the Stryker? I know the US is phasing them out but on paper they seem similar. Only asking as if we're largely going to start getting rid of them, I know a place that could use them.

  • NumiNumi Registered User regular
    At this point I fully expect the FSB to try and pull off a false flag attack on the landing craft only to have it foiled by the incompetence of the russian navy.

  • SpectrumSpectrum Archer of Inferno Chaldea Rec RoomRegistered User regular
    7/8 Ukrainian milvlogging. Day 500 of the invasion. tl;dw Ukraine continued making noticeable gains in the southeast. After outflanking the Russian defensive line and forcing a withdrawl south of Rivnopil, they feint towards Staromairske to fix reinforcements, then attacked from the other direction and are close to forcing a withdrawal from Pryyutne. They managed to push back the Russian armored counterattack and hold onto their gains.

    XNnw6Gk.jpg
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  • HydropoloHydropolo Registered User regular
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWA4Y2xGJM

    Starts out talking about the AMX10 but later shifts to experiences in the counter offensive.

    I'm not as familiar with this particular area of things, but how does the AMX10 compare to the M1128 version of the Stryker? I know the US is phasing them out but on paper they seem similar. Only asking as if we're largely going to start getting rid of them, I know a place that could use them.

    Their kinda similar, I guess?

    But the M1128 is being phased out because it's to much of a maintenance hog. The autoloader turret was a pain to service.

    So idk if they would be of any good to Ukraine.

    Sure, I just meant, we know for sure they'll be available and we know they operate. More than can be said apparently for some countries militaries.

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    edited July 2023
    Hydropolo wrote: »
    hiraeth wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaWA4Y2xGJM

    Starts out talking about the AMX10 but later shifts to experiences in the counter offensive.

    I'm not as familiar with this particular area of things, but how does the AMX10 compare to the M1128 version of the Stryker? I know the US is phasing them out but on paper they seem similar. Only asking as if we're largely going to start getting rid of them, I know a place that could use them.

    The AMX10 has better frontal armor (capable of taking on russian 30mm autocannons), lower center of mass and better weight distribution (the turret is mounted in the center instead of at the rear of the vehicle) and is better designed for hot climates.
    It also has the advantage/disadvantage that it doesn't use NATO 105mm, and rather uses a proprietary medium pressure gun. This gives it less power with its Sabot rounds, but the recoil is much more appropriate for its weight (especially when firing towards the sides).
    It does have a less powerful engine, but the main difference here is about 5km road speed and slightly less "oomph" when climbing hills, but the better weight distribution means that it's a toss-up in off-road terrain. The AMX10s armor upgrades does mean (as is common) that its gearbox is slightly under-dimensioned. Not unreliable, but reports from Ukraine implies that there is a lot of wear and tear even after just a few months.

    Overall it's the difference between being designed from the ground up as a mobile gun system and having mobile gun system capability bolted on as an afterthought. The M1128s 105mm gun really belongs on something at least 10 tons heavier.

    P.S: The M1128 though is afaik slightly less prone to killing its crew when the armor is penetrated as the autoloader means that the ammunition is isolated from the crew compartment.

    Fiendishrabbit on
    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Strikor wrote: »
    Somehow I suspect they will be far less "generous" when all those people suddenly want back out.

    When Ukraine eventually blows up the Kerch bridge and the siege starts, because that's the most likely way this is going to play out, Putin is going to milk those morons to try to get pity points. That's more of a long term plan though, the short term is that Putin cannot affort to admit (more) weakness, specially after the mutiny, so that's the largest priority of the Russian military.

    And to that goal, can you persuade me that he will not absolutely use them as human shields for important locations, and even have the more able-bodied pressed into service as emergency recruits. Talk about an easy way to get a few tens of thousands of chumps to bring themselves to be conscripted to fight in Ukraine...

  • DrascinDrascin Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Russia has a solution for the kilometers-long queues of cars trying to cross the Kerch Strait...

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/4/7409800/
    During the meeting, which was also attended by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Saveliev said that in the morning, he spoke with the Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation, Sergei Shoigu, and he promised "to provide, if necessary, 2 large landing craft, each of which can carry 40 cars".

    Retasking a couple LSTs to serve as ferries says a lot about the state of Russia's civilian infrastructure.

    It's the Russian Navy. It's not like they were gonna be doing anything else in the Black Sea.

    Catching fire and sinking isn't *nothing*!

    Honestly it's the best safety for those boats money could ever buy, Ukraine isn't going to blow them up while they're carrying a thousand civilians.

    The fact these people are basically consenting to being human shields tells me they probably don't actually know the facts on the ground, though!

    Steam ID: Right here.
  • hiraethhiraeth SpaceRegistered User regular
    Another long article translated by ChrisO interviewing Russians about the Wagner event.

    https://mastodon.social/@ChrisO_wiki/110679070598575740
    1/ Many ordinary Russians reached with eagerness and excitement to the Wagner Group's mutiny – from the woman who cancelled sex to await the Wagnerites' arrival, to the many people who went out on the streets to take selfies with them. It indicates a widespread desire for change. ⬇️

    2/ The independent Russian media outlet Verstka has been interviewing people in Rostov, Voronezh, Lipetsk, Moscow and Simferopol who followed Yevgeny Prigozhin's "March for Justice", and in some cases saw it first-hand.

    Their accounts reveal a widespread impression of Prigozhin as a straight-talking 'man of the people' and of his fighters as being honourable and polite people. Many interviewees also described him as an agent of long overdue change.

    They interview quite a lot of people from all walks of life, including some family members of Wagner.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    hiraeth wrote: »
    Another long article translated by ChrisO interviewing Russians about the Wagner event.

    https://mastodon.social/@ChrisO_wiki/110679070598575740
    1/ Many ordinary Russians reached with eagerness and excitement to the Wagner Group's mutiny – from the woman who cancelled sex to await the Wagnerites' arrival, to the many people who went out on the streets to take selfies with them. It indicates a widespread desire for change. ⬇️

    2/ The independent Russian media outlet Verstka has been interviewing people in Rostov, Voronezh, Lipetsk, Moscow and Simferopol who followed Yevgeny Prigozhin's "March for Justice", and in some cases saw it first-hand.

    Their accounts reveal a widespread impression of Prigozhin as a straight-talking 'man of the people' and of his fighters as being honourable and polite people. Many interviewees also described him as an agent of long overdue change.

    They interview quite a lot of people from all walks of life, including some family members of Wagner.

    The fact that people were openly admitting weeks after the fact that they wanted a glorified thug running a nazi goon squad (that Cannon films would have said was too many stereotypes mashed together to be credible) to overthrow putin (or at least part of his government) should be filling Putin with pant's shitting terror.

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited July 2023
    Man Russia is just a mess. I mean I suppose the worlds a mess but Jesus. Man of the people, the nazi thug maniac who would basically be a more bizarre and cruel Putin is the leading opposition to Putin. I’m sure a lot of that sentiment is just the hope for any change whatsoever, but Jesus.

    Prohass on
  • TynnanTynnan seldom correct, never unsure Registered User regular
    Sumy blacksmith takes the barrel from a destroyed Russian tank (T-72?) and makes a pair of knives from it. No layering on these, so it's a quicker video than his other ones.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQA0YPmjKOo

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    Man Russia is just a mess. I mean I suppose the worlds a mess but Jesus. Man of the people, the nazi thug maniac who would basically be a more bizarre and cruel Putin is the leading opposition to Putin. I’m sure a lot of that sentiment is just the hope for any change whatsoever, but Jesus.

    Like in a way I can see the appeal of the man; he got wins under his belt and was saying what everyone was thinking. Things like the war was started for bullshit reasons, nukes were stupid and that the MoD was run by fucking idiots.

    Also russia has a very different interpretation of the word "nazi" then what most of us would have so the whole ethno-nationalist thing doesn't bother them to the same degree.

    But like I said earlier: this is a wake up call to putin that the situation is catastrophically bad.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    To put it another way: when someone like that actually is the voice of reason, relatively speaking, then there's a goddamb problem.

  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    Even if "reason" is a strong word, the real big phenomenon here is that someone's breaking the cycle of vranyo in a measured capacity

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    V1m wrote: »
    To put it another way: when someone like that actually is the voice of reason, relatively speaking, then there's a goddamb problem.

    Like that's the horrible catch 22 of this; Prghozin would be the main bad guy in one of Cannon's shitty direct to video movies back in the mid 80's (a russian business man with a criminal hisotry who has nazi russian mercenaries working for him), but a lot of what he said was rational and logical (IE that the MoD needed to focus on defensive positions and not just cities, that the casus belli with denazification was bullshit, that thousands of lives were being wasted) was spot on.

    Like... we've reached a point where putin has actually achieved a new level of horrible when nazi's are above him in terms of rational and logic.

  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    That nice Vlad Vexler fellow has some nuanced thoughts on the cluster muntions kerfuffle

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WdoAU4MGU

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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    He's probably been doing more of the actual real work than Gerasimov was, so overall not a positive change for Ukraine other than being rather embarrassing for the Russians.

  • Kane Red RobeKane Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    edited July 2023
    Is Russian Colonel a higher rank than our or did they run out of flag officers willing to take the job?

    Edit: Disregard that, reread it and saw "Colonel General" as his actual rank. Which a quick Google tells me is equivalent to a US Lieutenant General.

    Kane Red Robe on
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User, Moderator mod
    Is Russian Colonel a higher rank than our or did they run out of flag officers willing to take the job?

    Colonel-general is their three-star rank. They go major, lieutenant, colonel and army general, compared to the US military's brigadier-major-lieutenant-justgeneral progression.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    Tankie talk can be much more insidious because it almost always starts off as things a leftist can agree with. American capitalism: Bad. American Politics: Bad. American Culture: Bad. American foreign policy: Bad.

    But then you start noticing that they always shy away from criticism of certain other world powers who have the same, if not worse issues as the US.

    Tankism isn't really a thing and mostly when people are talking about it they are either talking about a caricature of what they think the criticisms are, or they're talking about a Campist, which is really a form of Maoist tbh

    I am perfectly happy to criticise the US for it's many and manifold failings (including let us not forget the illegal and violent invasion of sovereign countries leading to thousands upon thousands of deaths) while also saying that the Russian government are bastards, their invasion of Ukraine is entirely abhorrent, I hope Ukraine kicks the Russian military around and I think arming the Ukrianians is the right thing to do

    Incredibly, one can do both without engaging in performative cheerleading, snide sniping and at times frankly hysterical accusations and statements, all of which have been sadly seen on this forum many times

    "Campism" is a word made up because Tankie was correctly seen as an insult, though do agree on Maoist. .

    Campism predates the Hungarian Revolution by something like 25 years.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited July 2023
    They're related and overlapping but do describe separate things. Tankies are 'these (nominally) leftist governments are right to use violence to take over places, because their causes are just', while campists are 'The West And Its Capitalism=Bad, thus assume anything against The West=Good'.

    The latter can just be myopic and often just believes the negative things about non-Western nations are propaganda or that they're just doing their best against bullies even if it's ugly. Mostly because it's the failures of Western nations that have screwed them personally.

    That said, modern tankies and campists seem a bit more out there to me than their predecessors.

    At least back in the day you might reasonably think that something might come of the USSR or China thriving and the US taking lumps, even if they were a shameful mess in the moment. Pragmatic dedication to potentially leftist governments at least has some sort of logic to it. And you had far less access to information about what these places are actually like.

    Being either today is just naked stupidity.

    Kamar on
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited July 2023
    Ukranian milbloggers saying that Turkey and Ukraine agreed to keep the grain deal on, even if Russia disagrees, with security assurances handled by the Turkish Navy.

    If that's true, guess that Erdogan finally got fed up with Putin, and decided to just do as he pleases and dare the Kremlin to do something about it.

    TryCatcher on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Ukranian milbloggers saying that Turkey and Ukraine agreed to keep the grain deal on, even if Russia disagrees, with security assurances handled by the Turkish Navy.

    If that's true, guess that Erdogan finally got fed up with Putin, and decided to just do as he pleases and dare the Kremlin to do something about it.

    Erdoagn can see which way the wind is blowing.

    Also that said wind is being generated by russia collapsing in on itself.

This discussion has been closed.