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Starter Firearms
Cycophant
Registered User regular
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Big initial heads up: I'm in Canada, and would prefer relevant advice. Keep in mind that a lot of firearms are restricted or prohibited here that aren't in the US or elsewhere, and the licensing is a fair bit different too.
So, I'm going to be moving out to the middle of nowhere in a few weeks (yay Yellowknife!), and this coupled with a well-paying job means I want to start taking up target shooting. Ever since shooting in the military, I've always really enjoyed it. Now I finally have the means and place to do it.
For starters, I'm going to take all the appropriate firearms safety courses. I'm well-versed enough in them from my time in the military, but I could certainly use a refresher and besides, it's pretty much a requirement to get a license here in Canada anyway. Once I find the local range, and get my license sorted out, I'm looking to purchase my first rifle.
All the (basic) research I've done points me towards a .22 to start off with. They're cheap, good starters, and a decent rifle is accurate enough I hear. Can anyone confirm or refute this, or perhaps have better suggestions? The accuracy is my biggest concern; I know there's no way I'll enjoy it if there's no sense of skill or accuracy. If a 22 is the way to go, can anyone suggest some better makes of rifles or ammunition to begin with? Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind of availability I'll have in Yellowknife, but if I have some ideas before I get up there, it'll help.
So, I'm going to be moving out to the middle of nowhere in a few weeks (yay Yellowknife!), and this coupled with a well-paying job means I want to start taking up target shooting. Ever since shooting in the military, I've always really enjoyed it. Now I finally have the means and place to do it.
For starters, I'm going to take all the appropriate firearms safety courses. I'm well-versed enough in them from my time in the military, but I could certainly use a refresher and besides, it's pretty much a requirement to get a license here in Canada anyway. Once I find the local range, and get my license sorted out, I'm looking to purchase my first rifle.
All the (basic) research I've done points me towards a .22 to start off with. They're cheap, good starters, and a decent rifle is accurate enough I hear. Can anyone confirm or refute this, or perhaps have better suggestions? The accuracy is my biggest concern; I know there's no way I'll enjoy it if there's no sense of skill or accuracy. If a 22 is the way to go, can anyone suggest some better makes of rifles or ammunition to begin with? Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind of availability I'll have in Yellowknife, but if I have some ideas before I get up there, it'll help.
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Wikipedia has a pretty good article about the .22 LR cartridge.
Beyond that, I'd say that once you get your PAL you should swing by a hunting/outdoor sports store (I'm sure Yellowknife has a few) and talk to one of the guys there. Personally, I like SIR Mail Order, but that's because they actually have a retail location here in Winnipeg.
[edit] Also I should note that in the military, I assume you used NATO standard 5.56mm rounds, the approximate civilian equivalent in canada is the .223 Remington cartridge.
If you want a nice gun get a .22 Remmington or old established American manufacturer you can't go wrong. Don't get a Mag by accident. They are loud and have too much kick for such a small caliber. Way too loud.
After you get comfy with the .22 get a 12 gauge shotgun. It's just as useful as a rifle and probably a lot more fun. i.e. bird hunting and skeet shooting
edit: after you become a man go 30.06 (commonly called the 30 aught 6) or a .230 (if you don't want your shoulder knocked off with the 30.06). with those two ~ they go boom things fall down.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
Some things to consider, though:
If you ever shoot outside the range (Hunting small game or whatever), be very, very careful about the background. .22 rounds do not have penetrating power and so if they hit a rock or whatever, they ricochet more than any other rifle I've ever used. Thankfully, in 20 years of shooting I've never been involved in or witnessed an injury accident, so they're safe as long as you aren't stupid. I would guess that having been in the military, you have a good idea as to rifle safety anyway.
As for the risk of ricochets, thanks for the heads up, it's not something I thought about. I'm not too worried, mind you - I imagine most of my shooting will be at a range. I'm not picking this up to hunt, I really don't have any desire to. But it doesn't mean I won't take the rifle outside the range at times for better practice, so it's something to be wary of.
I've been looking at a few rifles, and they all seem pretty reasonably priced, which is nice. The single-action ones seem a bit cheaper yet rugged, which is fine by me, I think I'd prefer a bolt action to start off with anyway.
I'll definitely remember the thirty-ought-six and the .223 Remington in the future, once I get a little more proficient. I'll admit, I'm not sure what to expect in terms of kick of the larger rounds. 5.56 rounds don't give much kick, especially when fired through a rifle with a honking spring in the butt, like I'm used to.
For your first 'real' rifle, I'd suggest a .308 Win over the 30-06. I was going to pick up an ought-six myself, but a friend of mine talked me into the 308 for a number of reasons, but the main ones are:
1) Less kick for something that will handle the same game.
2) Cheap military surplus ammo (7.62x51 aka 7.62 NATO) which around here is about half price.
3) The rifles tend to be a little bit cheaper.
The main downside pretty much comes down to the fact that you can handload the 30-06 in ways that you can't do for the 308. Factory ammo choices are about the same.
Some of the more popular hunting rifles are the Remington 700 line and the Winchester Model 70s. Used is probably a better choice and you'll pretty much have to go that way if you want a M70. For a few more dollars, the Tikka T3s are very accurate right out of the box.
Also, if you can find a course that does the non-restricted and restricted at the same time, take that one instead. It only costs $20 more to have the option of buying handguns in case you decide that you want to do so at some point in the next 5 years.
You might want to check out the biggest Canadian forum http://www.canadiangunnutz.com while you're at it and find some good advice and deals.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Think Ash in S-Mart from Bruce Campbell vs. The Army of Darkness
YES!!!!
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
Remember, if you're target shooting, the price of ammo will overtake the price of the rifle fairly quickly.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
If you want to shoot for accuracy, do not get a lever action rifle. Lever action or semi-auto rifles may look cool, but they can't hold a candle to the accuracy of a bolt-action gun. I've also found that the bolt action rifle is easier to take care of (but that's just me) .
People have already mentioned the .30-06 (which is the calibre of my rifle) which is a great calibre for any kind of hunting or shooting you could do, but it kicks pretty hard, so you may want to go with something else to start with. For instance, my father's rifle is chambered as a 7mm Magnum (Remington) - he loves it. It kicks less than my .30-06, shoots faster with less grain (since he hand-loads all of his rounds) and get take down the biggest game on the continent (Moose, big-ass bears) no problem. So, what I'm saying is that you should consider the 7mm along with the .30-06 and .308 - although they are all good calibres.
True mainly because it's not a particularily popular gun. Actually ones I like I've only seen at gun shows (which should be illegal lol). Great gun though. To me it shoots as smooth as a .22 but if you are a good shot you can bring down the same beast as a 30.06.
Range shooting .22 is best because the ammo is so cheap it might as well be free.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
7mm is a fairly uncommon round too. At least down here in Georgia it is. Sounds fun though I may have to find someone with one to give her a go.
You can look at the huge round bullet of a 30-30 and see its not that accurate. But for some reason I've always shot well with them. Probably because I'm not factoring in the kick like I do with the bigger rounds.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
yeh store it next to your stack of gold bars. :P
his very first gun and you are suggesting a Anchutz? okay...
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
Dont get it
Its only useful for making noise and shooting rats in your back yard. Nothing else. Its too innaccurate, and screws up too much for any fun target shooting.
A bolt action .22 can be good fun at a range though.
If you want a rifle designed to kill a man, you can get Mosin Nagant M-44's for about 100 bucks. They fire 7.62x54r a normal 308 wont work. However, a box of 50 of those babys runs about 10 bucks, assuming you can find them.
no offense but that gun is a piece of shit. There is a reason the Russians lost the cold war: their firearms.
Shooting moving targets like rats or still targets...which is harder...hmmm.
Buy an american .22 if you sight it in correctly it's always the best, most useful gun made.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
It's actually not bad at 100 yards - most of the accuracy is my problem, from trying to hold the heavy rifle steady. But, when I keep the barrel clean, I can print a 4" group over iron sights. Not great for rodents, but it's nice and satisfying to shoot.
I think my next will be a .22 Magnum - good long range performance.
Just a note on accuracy, I shot two groups with a friend's brand new Tikka T3 in .270 Win last night and my second group was right around 1" at 100 yards. I'm not sure where the first group was, but we were sighting it in.
As far as which "something to shoot while the guns I like are cooling down" gun to get, I like the Norinco (Chinese) SKS. The accuracy is pretty bad, but it goes for around $150 and you can buy milsurp ammo for about $30/100 or around 22-25 cents a round if you get a case. I would never hunt with it, but it's fun and cheap to shoot.
CangoFett, what model is your Remington?
Cycophant, you'll get a lot of advice when it comes to firearms and gun guys do have a lot of 'interesting' opinions so take each, mine included, with a grain of salt. Also, any comments on price or availability by Americans is pretty much useless. They totally don't know how good they have it. Also, you'll have plenty of time to read every review ever written about any particular firearm between the time you pass your CFSC course and actually get your PAL.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
like I said earlier the mag is loud. really loud for such a small gun. I bought one for an 20 acre area somewhat near other homes and a public road and it simply didn't work. a regular .22 I can shoot all day long without alarming anyone.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiS_bT6PE-E
That's my friend's video, who is really into Battlefield 2, but I am the cameraman referred to in the video. Note that I was just given that rifle to me by my dad and I rarely used it while it was in his possession.
heh i enjoyed that looked fun. you owned your pal hard good shot. I noticed he was only holding the gun with one hand on a few of those shots.
and is really into B2 ;-)
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
About the best advice I've seen so far in this thread. Especially if you are looking for an accurate, factory .22 without spending too much money. Quite a lot of the top benchrest shooters still use Anschutz actions on custom rifles for competition rimfire BR.
All depends on what sort of target shooting you are interested in, and exectly whay you mean by accurate. I'll throw a barrel out or sell it to somebody for a hunting rifle if it isn't capable of shooting less than .100" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. You wont get that with a factory built rifle, but you can get something that you can have fun with. Also, if you are looking to shoot some longer ranges, a standard .22LR wont be much use, and you might want to look at something like the .223.
Since you've stated your after accuracy, that rules out a few things. As others have said, an out of the box Ruger 10/22 isn't very accurate and requires significant cash to make it very accurate.
Lever actions are not as accurate as bolt actions, but some can still be accurate. The Marlin 39 has a lot of fans, is a proven design, and was accurate enough for Annie Oakley so it would probably meet your needs.
Bolt action wise, Savage .22s with Accu-triggers have gotten love and respect for being a great value. Ones without the Accu-trigger get complaints about the trigger.
Moving up a little bit in price, the CZ-452 is very loved and usually gets a lot of recommendations when this question is asked. The trainer model uses less fancy wood than some of the other variations and can be had for a lower price than the other variations. The step beyond this for new firearms gets into much more expensive stuff like Anschutz (I can't spell it either), though some people are fans of Ruger's bolt action .22s (which are more expensive than the CZ stuff but I've never heard anyone say they were more accurate).
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I'll just throw this out there, but have you considered an air rifle? Good ones like Feinwerkbaus go for like 3k or so, but they are fun to shoot and crazy accurate. And you don't even need ear protection.
Oh, on that note, dont always assume the guy behind the counter at a gun shop has a clue what he is talking about. That rifle I got was worth almost $1000 brand new.
Just make sure to check everything slides in an out well (bolt, magazine).
And go low velocity bullets.
Less bang but they are still perfectly lethal.
For a specific gun i have to recomend a BRNO Mk.2
Everything about it is smooth and polite.
I shot a plastic thumbtack from 50 meters, and I am no legend.
If you have half a brain you can find an Anchutz .22 for about $300 used. You may even find one with sights for that much, and even if you don't, if you keep an eye on ebay and search around you can probably get a set of Anchutz target sights for around $100 used.
So, $400 for a very accurate, reliable and proven target rifle.
Meanwhile, you can get a new Ruger or Reminton .22 for probably $500 at least with no sights and it won't be nearly as accurate.
Tough choice.
First off, its 100 bucks. Seriously man, 100. For a high power rifle.
100.
Also, you complain about the noise, that sounds like a personal issue. Me? Unless I'm hunting zombies, when I fire a weapon, I want 3 feet of flames to come out, and for the clouds to part at the sound of the shot.
well whatever. a remmington looks cooler and will score chicks.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
I only just noticed this post, and you almost made me spit coffee all over my monitor. You actually know what the cold war was by any chance?
Anyway, just had a thought. Maybe try the .22 magnum or .22 hornet? A bit more range on them, and ammo is still cheap as hell.
Also, TBH, a factory rifle is only going to be so accurate until you have the action trued and bedded properly. Doesn't really matter which brand. If you go for one of the well known brands (Remington, CZ, Ruger etc), they will all perform about the same until you have a gunsmith do some work to them. They are going to be accurate enough for most peoples use anyway. If you start shooting competition Benchrest or something, then start to concern yourself with the stuff I'm talking about (and get a 6ppc). Otherwise just go buy something and shoot it, because you'll have fun regardless.
What can I do to make this thing into a tack-driver? It has a factory-mounted scope that I'm going to sight in the next time I'm at the range - any after-market parts that make it more accurate, or should I just get a gunsmith to poke around with it? How do I find a competent gun-smith? What's a reasonable fee?
Simple. Easy. Itll' get you on paper right away.
And I didn't actually get an Anchutz (if I did, I'd hope it'd be accurate right away!) I got a Marlin 60 - with a synthetic body, and was basically asking about mods.
If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
Depending on how much you are looking to spend, you could also get the action trued, and have a gunsmith check the barrel crown. I've seen several brand new rifles with shitty crowning jobs.
Finding a gunsmith shouldn't be too hard, but finding a really good one in your area might be. You could go and ask on somewhere like benchrest.com forums or on 6mmbr.com. The people on there are pretty helpful, and only use the best gunsmiths, so any reccomendation from them is a pretty safe bet.
On topic: I am buying a gun (with the other wedding party members) for the fellow getting married. Whats a good gun $500-1000 for a guy who already has every hunting firearm well represented? He doesn't have a decent pistol. Whats a good pistol (brand not caliber) for critters but can also kill a 200lb boar if needs be? Taurus makes pretty good affordable guns but I've almost killed my dog once with their hair triggers. Too touchy for my tastes.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
We have lots of guns, an estimated 8 million or so firearms for our (approx) 32 million population, probably because we have a shit-ton of wildlands up here, and Canada was originally explored by hunter/trappers.
We do have heavier restrictions on firearms though, to legally aquire a rifle or shotgun you are required to pass a government firearm safety course and aquire a license to possess and aquire, plus all firearms are supposed to be registered as well. To get a handgun you have to pass a different restricted weapon safety course and have a special license to possess restricted firearms. And pretty much the only people allowed to carry firearms in public (concealed or otherwise) are police.
Also, I had to re-read your On Topic part three times before I could get all the Shotgun Wedding jokes to stop.
How much should I be looking to spend for the gunsmith to bed my action?
There's a 'that's what she said' joke in here somewhere.
Lol. But I was being serious. It's a tradition in my group of friends to buy the groom a firearm as a present instead of stupid shit they dont want and their wife does like flatware. And generally speaking it has always been a shotgun. I am embarrassed now that we never used that as a public joke to humiliate said groom. Next time.
In the states we having to take a hunter's safety course to get a hunting license. another more stringent license for a concealed weapon. to get a gun to shoot another human you need no license. just a background check. it is legal to carry a sidearm here but no one does it as it makes people very understandably nervous.
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748
PokeCode: 3952 3495 1748