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So, rape.
Not Sarastro
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Please suggest a better title if you want.
Clearly the previous thread hadn't nearly run its course, but had totally derailed, so here's a new one.
Reply to something Amelius said inc. MT grab aggro!
Er. As far as I can see, men can only absolutely guarantee that they will avoid rape charges by abstaining from sex altogether, since as I think we established, false rape charges do exist. Though to be fair, if women locked themselves up in a box for their entire (probably rather short considering) lifespan and took the key with them, they could also avoid rape. These both seem like reasonable courses of action to me.
You aren't actually suggesting that men should abstain from sex in case they are falsely accused of rape, are you?
Clearly the previous thread hadn't nearly run its course, but had totally derailed, so here's a new one.
Reply to something Amelius said inc. MT grab aggro!
Aemilius wrote:Women cannot have any kind of guarantee that they will avoid rape. Men can absolutely guarantee that they will avoid rape charges.
Er. As far as I can see, men can only absolutely guarantee that they will avoid rape charges by abstaining from sex altogether, since as I think we established, false rape charges do exist. Though to be fair, if women locked themselves up in a box for their entire (probably rather short considering) lifespan and took the key with them, they could also avoid rape. These both seem like reasonable courses of action to me.
You aren't actually suggesting that men should abstain from sex in case they are falsely accused of rape, are you?
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but it's awesome how someone says "right to consensual sex" and two people say "brrrrrrr there's no right to sex!".
why don't we have the right, if it is consensual? do we not have the right? or did you just ignore the consensual part because it didn't fit your argument?
No one has the right to Sex! That doesn't mean you can't get it, it just means that you don't deserve it just because you're alive.
Why? It's a legit debate, only objection to the last thread was derailing.
It is a terrible thing to be accused of any crime, sexual or not, no matter who you are, and people around you will generally look at you funny as a result, no matter the outcome. You can't get around that, except by encouraging people not to be shitheads in your daily life and hoping cultural change comes sooner or later.
well, I agree with that.
I SAID THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is what I said in the very post where I said we can get sex. I knew that using the same word (right) would lead to confusion, but people don't care to acknowledge that, it wouldn't let them quote me and spill BS.
Thank you!
alright. alright. I'm using the word "right" in a different way than you are.
Exactly.
We don't need to change the fucking legal system over it.
To be fair, the current debate is only as absurd as it is because some people (Aemilius) made bizarre claims that men basically shouldn't have casual sex in case they rape someone.
Everyone who isn't mental pointed out a few pages ago that we're talking about the extremes here, but let's face it, it's more fun probing the minds of the mental people than the sane ones who agree with you.
EDIT: Cmon Aemilius, explain this please:
The notion that no one has the right to have sex is so fucking retarded. You are flinging shit in the face of the sexual revolution. Yes, we have a right to have sex. Having a right to something does not mean you are guaranteed that thing. Free speech doesn't guarantee you'll ever have anything to say. You could die without ever speaking a word, you still had free speech.
Yeah, you need a legally consenting partner first. You aren't guaranteed that. But you do have a right to have sex.
Actually, from a human rights standpoint, they totally have a right to sex. They just don't have a right to have it with other people.
Sounds absurd, but that's utterly serious.
No, but we seriously need to look at how we handle sex offenders who've served their time. The fact that you can be saddled with Sex Offender status for life and barred from coming anywhere near children, schools, or parks because you pissed in an alley while drunk is sort of problematic.
and I said it in my first post. do we not ahve the right to have consensual sex? because it seems like a yes or no situation.
I apologize if I'm being an idiot here, but it seem like we either have the right to consensual sex, or we don't. and I'm pretty damn sure we don't not have it.
i'm purposely saying that I might be wrong here because I don't want my argument thrown in my face on this particular point, but I'm not really clear on all this.
edit - alright, I'm not crazy. good.
So when in doubt, we assume that the guy is a rapist? Basically, guilty until proven innocent?
I see you've decided to stick with mischaracterisation and outright falsehood as a debate tactic. Good for you.
Well, that depends. It would mean that guys could accuse girls of rape if they don't want, for example, their GF to think they cheated on her, right?
I think what it would do culturally/legally whatever is that we'd finally have equality in court... and everyone would be afraid of having sex with anyone.
But then, couldn't one make the other one sign this paper, THEN, while having sex, brutalise him/her and force him/her to more than previously indicated? Also, I'd feel really weird telling a girl: "Here, sign this, so I can fuck you and you can't bitch afterwards".
Keeping rape trial proceedings closed until they're over would do a lot of good for both the victim and the accused, I think.
But we've had that discussion before.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Irony aside (see previous thread) I think there actually would be consent forms for kissing.
Good to know.
Are you asking if two people of legal age and capable of giving meaningful consent have the right to get it on if they want to? I think the answer is generally yes, though it gets weird in cases of incest.
yeah I am, bceause when I said they did ten minutes ago I had several people tell me I was wrong.
No, I've decided to stick with hyperbole and personal translation until he mans up and explains what that absurd & ambiguous statement in the first post meant.
If it's provoking, all the better, since I think he's trying to hide from it at the moment, because it was dumb.
This thread, and everyone in it, makes me want to put a gun to my head and end it all. I have never in my life seen such a clusterfuck of a discussion thread with so many different (and simultaneous) illogical, asanine and overall retarded arguments. As a result, I have not only lost faith in every one of you, but in humanity as a whole.
1) Rape is bad. Don't rape another person, please.
2) Sex is good. Sex with another consenting person can be fun! But don't forget, caveat emptor. Also, use protection.
3) 100 guilty people free is better than 1 innocent person in jail.
4) Posting pictures of some random girl on the internet, then talking in depth about all the things you'd like to do to her between the sheets is really, really, really scummy.
5) Stop posting here.
Yeah, really, that was an impressive strawman. Most people can't distort an argument that much and keep a straight face.
I'm just stating as a matter of fact that I don't think most people of either gender would really adopt it as a social norm, no matter how it was pushed through education or the legal system.
More important? That's arguable, I suppose, but the two being mutually exclusive is pretty much a given. I mean, I assume you're not talking about just casual sex, since you're big on the whole husbands-can-be-rapists-too thing. Which would mean that every act of sex between any two people, even a married couple of ten years who were desperately in love and really horny, would be expected to be prefaced by a formal declaration of consent. If you really don't see that as sort of breaking the mood, something is seriously wrong with your sense of romance.
You aren't taking it in the context of what he said previously, which was:
re: false rape accusations
you didn't say that a side effect of casual sex is a possible rape accusation? that it was something to be watched out for?
edit - oh shit there it is right above me
Of course, there are always going to be out of the blue, completely random accusations. Sometimes life's a bitch.
Which statement are we referring to? Mind quoting it? Then I can explain it for you.
Better? No.
Angrier? You bet your ass.