You have to weigh the fact that those Colonels are living and fighting in an active war zone. Getting paid to desert is surely better than deserting for nothing, especially if you have family you want to take with you. Russia has made Ukraine into a little slice of hell and while I admire those who fight back, I empathize with those who want to run
A traitor is traitor.
Occasionally I prefer nuanced views about the choices humans make, even if said choices are ones I don't approve of
The missile strike they would be helping direct in would've killed Zelensky, aides who work for him, his security detail, and any of the local frontline soldiers who were assisting in escort and protection for the region he was in.
Might as well have just shot a fellow soldier in the back.
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
There's running, and there's selling out your nation and its defenders to the enemy. Not only those who would have died directly, but also those who would have suffered from the blow to morale.
Just deserting because afraid or traumatized and want to escape with family. Morally ok. Anyone might make that choice.
Accepting money to arrange the killing of your comrades at arms and leader? He's lucky Ukraine abolished the death penalty.
I'm also not sure murdering Zelensky would have the effect the FSB thinks it would... They may be lucky they are incompetent criminals in terms of the resulting effects on worldwide anger against Russia.
fedaykin666 on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
well in this case, you're not going on a shitlist. you're going on dead, i am guessing
I distinctly recall comments from Ukrainian sources that efforts were already underway to identify individual Russian soldiers who have been involved in war crimes.
When this conflict ends (or at least simmers down to a tolerable tension), it shouldn't be controversial to say that the Ukrainians will hold 'a grudge' to put it so mildly that we'll need new forms of science to truly understand the scope and scale.
Yes, I'm sure the goal will be to find justice however they might, but also, that's going to be a LONG list, and the reality is that some folks will just be left waiting for years if not decades, in part because it'll be much easier to trim the low hanging fruit, and everyone slips up now and then.
Which isn't to disagree, but more to build on the notion. Yeah, these two guys would've been idiots to take them up on it, the I cannot begin to imagine the data Ukrainian military/intelligence services have been collating, nor what it will look like when they choose to act on it.
You have to weigh the fact that those Colonels are living and fighting in an active war zone. Getting paid to desert is surely better than deserting for nothing, especially if you have family you want to take with you. Russia has made Ukraine into a little slice of hell and while I admire those who fight back, I empathize with those who want to run
A traitor is traitor.
Occasionally I prefer nuanced views about the choices humans make, even if said choices are ones I don't approve of
The missile strike they would be helping direct in would've killed Zelensky, aides who work for him, his security detail, and any of the local frontline soldiers who were assisting in escort and protection for the region he was in.
Might as well have just shot a fellow soldier in the back.
Sure, but you are entirely missing the point. If these are people who feel that it's that dangerous for them and their families to remain in Ukraine on the Ukrainian side, there is some logic to saying "sucks to be you, but I got my priorities in order." I happen to think they are wrong, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that I would sacrifice lots of people to protect my family. That's Ringos point. Someone who will happily sacrifice themself can make an entirely different decision when family members or kids are involved. You don't have to agree with it, but ignoring it is fallacy for sure, and I guarantee you that no modern security service is ignoring it.
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Grudgeblessed is the mind too small for doubtRegistered Userregular
edited May 8
I'm supporting the genocidal invader because I'm afraid that the genocidal invader will hurt my family?
In total, the enemy employed 55 missiles and 21 attack drones, including:
a Kh-47M2 Kinzhal aeroballistic missile (launched from Tambov region);
two Iskander-M ballistic missiles (from the temporarily occupied Crimea);
four Kalibr cruise missiles (from the Black Sea);
45 Kh-101/Kh-555 cruise missiles launched by Tu-95 MS strategic aviation aircraft (from Saratov Region and Caspian Sea water area);
an Iskander-K cruise missile (from Crimea);
two Kh-59/Kh-69 guided air missiles (from the temporarily captured part of Zaporizhzhia region); and
21 attack UAVs of the Shahed-131/136 type (from Primorsko-Akhtarsk region, Kursk region).
Fighter aircraft, anti-aircraft warfare units of the Ukrainian Air Force, mobile air defense groups, and electronic warfare units were involved in repelling the massive attack.
As a result of anti-aircraft combat, 59 air targets were destroyed, including:
33 Kh-101/Kh-555 cruise missiles;
four Kalibr cruise missiles;
two Kh-59/Kh-69 guided air missiles; and
20 attack UAVs of the Shahed-131/136 type.
I honestly wonder what kind of response nato would have to Russia actually succesfully assassinating zelensky so brazenly. I mean it’s not like he hasn’t tried to kill ukranian leaders before but Jesus Christ europe can’t have this kind of shit Putin is fucking out of control
In total, the enemy employed 55 missiles and 21 attack drones, including:
a Kh-47M2 Kinzhal aeroballistic missile (launched from Tambov region);
two Iskander-M ballistic missiles (from the temporarily occupied Crimea);
four Kalibr cruise missiles (from the Black Sea);
45 Kh-101/Kh-555 cruise missiles launched by Tu-95 MS strategic aviation aircraft (from Saratov Region and Caspian Sea water area);
an Iskander-K cruise missile (from Crimea);
two Kh-59/Kh-69 guided air missiles (from the temporarily captured part of Zaporizhzhia region); and
21 attack UAVs of the Shahed-131/136 type (from Primorsko-Akhtarsk region, Kursk region).
Fighter aircraft, anti-aircraft warfare units of the Ukrainian Air Force, mobile air defense groups, and electronic warfare units were involved in repelling the massive attack.
As a result of anti-aircraft combat, 59 air targets were destroyed, including:
33 Kh-101/Kh-555 cruise missiles;
four Kalibr cruise missiles;
two Kh-59/Kh-69 guided air missiles; and
20 attack UAVs of the Shahed-131/136 type.
Seems like that attack on the shaheed factory did put a dent in their supply. Waves like this would usually have 50-100 shaheeds mixed in.
"The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Just deserting because afraid or traumatized and want to escape with family. Morally ok. Anyone might make that choice.
Accepting money to arrange the killing of your comrades at arms and leader? He's lucky Ukraine abolished the death penalty.
I'm also not sure murdering Zelensky would have the effect the FSB thinks it would... They may be lucky they are incompetent criminals in terms of the resulting effects on worldwide anger against Russia.
Yeah killing Zelensky now would be fucking moronic. If he stays alive there's a chance he becomes a lightning rod for discontent that the war is locked in stalemate. If he died tomorrow in a Russian missile strike he becomes a martyr, an unkillable icon of the idea of Ukrainian nationhood and anti-russian resistance.
If the Russians actually think killing him would help their situation then the self proclaimed world champions of propaganda have seriously lost their touch.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
You have to weigh the fact that those Colonels are living and fighting in an active war zone. Getting paid to desert is surely better than deserting for nothing, especially if you have family you want to take with you. Russia has made Ukraine into a little slice of hell and while I admire those who fight back, I empathize with those who want to run
A traitor is traitor.
Occasionally I prefer nuanced views about the choices humans make, even if said choices are ones I don't approve of
A nuanced view like "conspiring to assassinate your president is basically just spicy desertion"??
You have to weigh the fact that those Colonels are living and fighting in an active war zone. Getting paid to desert is surely better than deserting for nothing, especially if you have family you want to take with you. Russia has made Ukraine into a little slice of hell and while I admire those who fight back, I empathize with those who want to run
A traitor is traitor.
Occasionally I prefer nuanced views about the choices humans make, even if said choices are ones I don't approve of
A nuanced view like "conspiring to assassinate your president is basically just spicy desertion"??
It's only traïson when it comes from a certain region of France.
Also, like these are fucking Colonels. These are not some poor conscripted grunts stuck on the front lines, they are Senior officers, most likely at least moderately removed from actual combat because they're the ones developing strategy and giving orders. In the US military, they'd have literally thousands of people under their command.
in most other countries, officers are not quite as powerful or educated as they are in nato countries... although ukraine is a quasi-nato country they carry tons of soviet baggage, these guys would probably barely make officer in a US force structure
ive read that from a few sources but those lindybeige interviews from legion guys last year also spoke a lot about this... officers grow on trees there and none of them are particularly impressive
in most other countries, officers are not quite as powerful or educated as they are in nato countries... although ukraine is a quasi-nato country they carry tons of soviet baggage, these guys would probably barely make officer in a US force structure
ive read that from a few sources but those lindybeige interviews from legion guys last year also spoke a lot about this... officers grow on trees there and none of them are particularly impressive
Yeah I remember him saying in a NATO army a Major is a pretty big fucking deal, in the Ukrainian army these guys were everywhere and they were making the tea. Ukrainian colonel might be the equivalent of US or UK lieutenant.
E: also one of the reasons scores of Russian Generals were getting killed early on is soviet style armies are extremely officer heavy and even General is not that big a deal in the Russian army relatively speaking
"The Ukrainian parliament has approved a bill that would allow some categories of prisoners to serve in the country’s armed forces...Olena Shulyak, the head of Zelenskiy's party, said in a Facebook post that the 'draft law opens the possibility for certain categories of prisoners who expressed a desire to defend their country to join the defense forces.'" https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-prisoners-military-parliament-russia/32938380.html
Tweeter is a western expert on the Russian military and has done extensive on the ground interviews with Ukrainian forces during the comflict. They are quoting a Radio Free Europe Report.
2+ murders gets you excluded. Just one little murder is okay though.
i was reading a book by a geopolitics/strategy guy who used to work in the Pentagon and he quipped that something like a staff sergeant in the united states military has as much autonomy and power in the battlefield as most other countries 2-star generals.... (not necessarily Russia per se, but think like... China.. Vietnam.... any random middle eastern military)
this is because so many countries militaries serve a function that is almost exclusively political, they can't just decide to do this or that from a perspective of battlefield tactics, it always has to be run through High Command which in turn runs through the head of state..
we kind of do things the opposite. we let the soldiers do soldiering, trust them to follow the rules of engagement, and the generals and politicians clean up any messes that get made
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
US army doctrine places a lot of value on the power of initiative, as a result we train extensively on basic tactics and strategy, so that in a situation where events are moving rapidly we don't end up with units hunkering down and waiting for orders. This of course requires a well educated and motivated junior officer and nco cadre, and conscript armies like Russia struggle with having any NCOs. As a result you tend to see more officers because they need them around to do what in a US army a sergeant would do.
In my office we have a former Sergeant Major of the National Guard as a regular supervisor.
Like, they have ONE of them at any time. The top NCO of the organization. Being in the room with her has made former colonels and GS-15s nervous, because, even being a former Sergeant Major means that she probably has the loyalty of a larger contingent than they do. When asked about it she just smirks.
You've heard of the E4 mafia? They've got nothing on E9s.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
tl;dw Discussion of recent defenses west of Avdiivka. Umans'ke still anchors the southern part of the first defensive line and helps defend the open area west of Tonen'ke. Russia has suffered a lot of losses to vehicles in this area and are back to sending forward infantry waves, even though they have also been trying to soften up Ukrainian positions with artillery and air power. Because Russia is fielding mostly soft vehicles and infantry, local Ukrainian defenders have been experimenting with different drones that have guns on them instead of explosives.
An "undeclared" Russian military intelligence officer will be expelled from the UK, James Cleverly has said.
The home secretary also announced the closure of several Russian diplomatic premises and new restrictions on diplomatic visas.
The defence attache, named as Colonel Maxim Elovik, appears to have been in the UK since at least 2014.
The Russian embassy in London said restrictions had been imposed under a "groundless and ridiculous pretext".
Speaking in the Commons on Wednesday, Mr Cleverly told MPs: "Today, in conjunction with the foreign secretary, I am announcing a package of measures to make clear to Russia that we will not tolerate such apparent escalations.
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
"The Ukrainian parliament has approved a bill that would allow some categories of prisoners to serve in the country’s armed forces...Olena Shulyak, the head of Zelenskiy's party, said in a Facebook post that the 'draft law opens the possibility for certain categories of prisoners who expressed a desire to defend their country to join the defense forces.'" https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-prisoners-military-parliament-russia/32938380.html
Tweeter is a western expert on the Russian military and has done extensive on the ground interviews with Ukrainian forces during the comflict. They are quoting a Radio Free Europe Report.
2+ murders gets you excluded. Just one little murder is okay though.
My head cannon for that policy decision is hilarious.
“We don’t want murderers in the military?”
“What if my mistress is unfaithful or I hate Sergei for sleeping with my mistress?
“You can have one.”
“But…”
“You can only get one!”
“Now I want 3 because I hate my boss.”
v0v there's a long history of armies recruiting from prisons, not just in Russia either. When your back is against the wall, you do what you have to.
Also, it presupposes that these people aren't capable of, or aren't seeking redemption.
To be clear, I'm not saying all are. Some people are irredeemable. But I'm sure at least a portion of those were people who sincerely regret what they did.
I'm not sure what the Ukrainian justice system is like, but some places, "murder" can mean wilful negligence or similar. Some places It's manslaughter, others it just counts as murder.
It's why the "one murder" thing isn't some weird thing. Making a mistake could be an issue. Repeating it, isn't.
There is this one great image I remember seeing years ago from a crossover that DC and marvel did where joker is realizing that red skull is unironically a nazi and his response is to immediately fight him because as much of a monster as he might be, he is still an American and he isn't going to put up with that shit.
I imagine for a lot of these prisoners, it's the same deal.
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
There is this one great image I remember seeing years ago from a crossover that DC and marvel did where joker is realizing that red skull is unironically a nazi and his response is to immediately fight him because as much of a monster as he might be, he is still an American and he isn't going to put up with that shit.
I imagine for a lot of these prisoners, it's the same deal.
The CSTO's members also understood that the Ukraine war was something that had no benefit to them either way, was started by Russia because putin is on a nostalgia trip (and if he goes down it far enough he's going to remember that their countries are no more "real" then Ukraine) and that Russian war planners would be making them ablative armor for their own troops.
Beyond that, Russia getting weaker can only benefit them since it means that it has less capability to interfere in their business or push uneven diplomatic agreements on them.
And this isn't even getting into how the whole thing was always Russia just wanting their own NATO without understanding what it represents
Sakhalin island produces rather a lot of oil and gas, and is probably out of range of any Ukrainian strikes but easily accessible by anyone with experience covertly infiltrating by sea. For example.
Christ, if you got a truck that can go off road and an angle grinder you can utterly wreak havoc on russia's ability to function, to say nothing of what happens if you blow a pipeline.
When Russia, that represents like 90% of the military might of the alliance, gets bogged down in a war, it shows how hollow the alliance is.
There is this one great image I remember seeing years ago from a crossover that DC and marvel did where joker is realizing that red skull is unironically a nazi and his response is to immediately fight him because as much of a monster as he might be, he is still an American and he isn't going to put up with that shit.
I imagine for a lot of these prisoners, it's the same deal.
In spoilers because of image size bug:
Damn, Marvel just straight up ripping off The Rocketeer here.
"The Ukrainian parliament has approved a bill that would allow some categories of prisoners to serve in the country’s armed forces...Olena Shulyak, the head of Zelenskiy's party, said in a Facebook post that the 'draft law opens the possibility for certain categories of prisoners who expressed a desire to defend their country to join the defense forces.'" https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-prisoners-military-parliament-russia/32938380.html
Tweeter is a western expert on the Russian military and has done extensive on the ground interviews with Ukrainian forces during the comflict. They are quoting a Radio Free Europe Report.
2+ murders gets you excluded. Just one little murder is okay though.
I think people are really underestimating just how close to a knife's edge Ukraine is at this point.
Also The Joker would have been a terrible Nazi, and Nazis would have despised the Joker. If there's one thing that fascists really can't stand it's being laughed at.
So yeah anyway, about the rapidly growing consensus that yeah European troops are going to be treading Ukrainian soil.
Also The Joker would have been a terrible Nazi, and Nazis would have despised the Joker. If there's one thing that fascists really can't stand it's being laughed at.
So yeah anyway, about the rapidly growing consensus that yeah European troops are going to be treading Ukrainian soil.
How is that going to work exactly?
I know Macron mentioned it, it just seems like the kind of thing you can’t do without going all in on, and going all in on would be a shooting war with Russia.
I feel like you don’t get European soldiers on the ground without Europe committing air forces, and a multinational European air force in direct conflict with Russia I feel like ends up in crazytown.
Like Europe would be fools to put ground troops in without a fully commited assault on Russian missile launch capacity and air defenses, and I think thats a battle Europe probably wins, but it would involve a shitton of NATO on Russia blowing shit up even if the US wasn’t involved directly.
Also The Joker would have been a terrible Nazi, and Nazis would have despised the Joker. If there's one thing that fascists really can't stand it's being laughed at.
So yeah anyway, about the rapidly growing consensus that yeah European troops are going to be treading Ukrainian soil.
How is that going to work exactly?
I know Macron mentioned it, it just seems like the kind of thing you can’t do without going all in on, and going all in on would be a shooting war with Russia.
I feel like you don’t get European soldiers on the ground without Europe committing air forces, and a multinational European air force in direct conflict with Russia I feel like ends up in crazytown.
Like Europe would be fools to put ground troops in without a fully commited assault on Russian missile launch capacity and air defenses, and I think thats a battle Europe probably wins, but it would involve a shitton of NATO on Russia blowing shit up even if the US wasn’t involved directly.
ISW had a paragraph about this yesterday, drawing from an FT article. Lithuania says they've approved soldiers going to Ukraine as trainers. That's the closest we've gotten to an actual commitment, but Ukraine hasn't requested those trainers so it's moot for now. Macron's statements have all been along the lines of "It's possible, under certain circumstances, that if Ukraine requested boots on the ground, we would consider discussions about it." Which feels a lot more like strategic ambiguity than a policy they're actually looking at in the short term.
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The missile strike they would be helping direct in would've killed Zelensky, aides who work for him, his security detail, and any of the local frontline soldiers who were assisting in escort and protection for the region he was in.
Might as well have just shot a fellow soldier in the back.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Accepting money to arrange the killing of your comrades at arms and leader? He's lucky Ukraine abolished the death penalty.
I'm also not sure murdering Zelensky would have the effect the FSB thinks it would... They may be lucky they are incompetent criminals in terms of the resulting effects on worldwide anger against Russia.
Thorgrim will start speaking Ukrainian.
Sure, but you are entirely missing the point. If these are people who feel that it's that dangerous for them and their families to remain in Ukraine on the Ukrainian side, there is some logic to saying "sucks to be you, but I got my priorities in order." I happen to think they are wrong, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that I would sacrifice lots of people to protect my family. That's Ringos point. Someone who will happily sacrifice themself can make an entirely different decision when family members or kids are involved. You don't have to agree with it, but ignoring it is fallacy for sure, and I guarantee you that no modern security service is ignoring it.
Why are they even in the military to begin with?
https://www.facebook.com/kpszsu/posts/pfbid0oMLmvgF649oPmR13CVZy14S6XCnsjE7aHK7uM5YPfSMfzV74R3ug5awwXm96LZLil
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3861258-air-defense-forces-down-59-russian-missiles-drones-overnight-wed.html
Seems like that attack on the shaheed factory did put a dent in their supply. Waves like this would usually have 50-100 shaheeds mixed in.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Yeah killing Zelensky now would be fucking moronic. If he stays alive there's a chance he becomes a lightning rod for discontent that the war is locked in stalemate. If he died tomorrow in a Russian missile strike he becomes a martyr, an unkillable icon of the idea of Ukrainian nationhood and anti-russian resistance.
If the Russians actually think killing him would help their situation then the self proclaimed world champions of propaganda have seriously lost their touch.
A nuanced view like "conspiring to assassinate your president is basically just spicy desertion"??
It's only traïson when it comes from a certain region of France.
ive read that from a few sources but those lindybeige interviews from legion guys last year also spoke a lot about this... officers grow on trees there and none of them are particularly impressive
Yeah I remember him saying in a NATO army a Major is a pretty big fucking deal, in the Ukrainian army these guys were everywhere and they were making the tea. Ukrainian colonel might be the equivalent of US or UK lieutenant.
E: also one of the reasons scores of Russian Generals were getting killed early on is soviet style armies are extremely officer heavy and even General is not that big a deal in the Russian army relatively speaking
Tweeter is a western expert on the Russian military and has done extensive on the ground interviews with Ukrainian forces during the comflict. They are quoting a Radio Free Europe Report.
2+ murders gets you excluded. Just one little murder is okay though.
I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.
Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
this is because so many countries militaries serve a function that is almost exclusively political, they can't just decide to do this or that from a perspective of battlefield tactics, it always has to be run through High Command which in turn runs through the head of state..
we kind of do things the opposite. we let the soldiers do soldiering, trust them to follow the rules of engagement, and the generals and politicians clean up any messes that get made
Can't join the EU with capital punishment.
Like, they have ONE of them at any time. The top NCO of the organization. Being in the room with her has made former colonels and GS-15s nervous, because, even being a former Sergeant Major means that she probably has the loyalty of a larger contingent than they do. When asked about it she just smirks.
You've heard of the E4 mafia? They've got nothing on E9s.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68978110
“We don’t want murderers in the military?”
“What if my mistress is unfaithful or I hate Sergei for sleeping with my mistress?
“You can have one.”
“But…”
“You can only get one!”
“Now I want 3 because I hate my boss.”
Also, it presupposes that these people aren't capable of, or aren't seeking redemption.
To be clear, I'm not saying all are. Some people are irredeemable. But I'm sure at least a portion of those were people who sincerely regret what they did.
I'm not sure what the Ukrainian justice system is like, but some places, "murder" can mean wilful negligence or similar. Some places It's manslaughter, others it just counts as murder.
It's why the "one murder" thing isn't some weird thing. Making a mistake could be an issue. Repeating it, isn't.
I imagine for a lot of these prisoners, it's the same deal.
In spoilers because of image size bug:
When Russia, that represents like 90% of the military might of the alliance, gets bogged down in a war, it shows how hollow the alliance is.
Damn, Marvel just straight up ripping off The Rocketeer here.
I think people are really underestimating just how close to a knife's edge Ukraine is at this point.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
So yeah anyway, about the rapidly growing consensus that yeah European troops are going to be treading Ukrainian soil.
How is that going to work exactly?
I know Macron mentioned it, it just seems like the kind of thing you can’t do without going all in on, and going all in on would be a shooting war with Russia.
I feel like you don’t get European soldiers on the ground without Europe committing air forces, and a multinational European air force in direct conflict with Russia I feel like ends up in crazytown.
Like Europe would be fools to put ground troops in without a fully commited assault on Russian missile launch capacity and air defenses, and I think thats a battle Europe probably wins, but it would involve a shitton of NATO on Russia blowing shit up even if the US wasn’t involved directly.
ISW had a paragraph about this yesterday, drawing from an FT article. Lithuania says they've approved soldiers going to Ukraine as trainers. That's the closest we've gotten to an actual commitment, but Ukraine hasn't requested those trainers so it's moot for now. Macron's statements have all been along the lines of "It's possible, under certain circumstances, that if Ukraine requested boots on the ground, we would consider discussions about it." Which feels a lot more like strategic ambiguity than a policy they're actually looking at in the short term.