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A Forum Civility PSA

RamiusRamius Joined: July 19, 2000Administrator, ClubPA admin
edited May 21 in Debate and/or Discourse
"Don't cut your nose off to spite your face".

It's a wierd saying, so let's get a full description from ChatGPT
"Cut off your nose to spite your face" is an idiomatic expression that means to take a drastic action that is intended to harm someone else but ultimately causes more harm to oneself. It often refers to a self-destructive act motivated by anger, revenge, or stubbornness, where the person inflicting the harm on themselves does so to make a point or to hurt another, but the action ends up being more detrimental to them than to the intended target.

For example, if someone quits their job in a fit of anger because they had a minor disagreement with their boss, they might be "cutting off their nose to spite their face." The intent is to show the boss that they won't tolerate the disagreement, but the result is that they lose their source of income and potentially harm their career more than they harm their boss.

The phrase emphasizes the irrationality and counterproductive nature of such actions.

I've seen some significant sniping and griping and wringing of hands and accusations and overall unproductive behavior oozing out of the seams of the forums in recent weeks. And having been through a few revolutions in the past, I'm getting that deja vu feeling that there are sides being chosen and pitchforks being sharpened. And honestly, despite the revolutions I've seen this forum survive over the last 23-plus years, I do have real concern that the next one could be the last.

Of course, there are always some people who just want to see the world burn. I'm not trying to speak to those people. By themselves, they rarely have the power to do it. They need a coalition. They need backers. That's where you come in. When you see a spark, cover it. Don't fan the flames. And don't buy into the deceptive lure of righteous indignation.

If you care about these forums and would like them to be here for years to come, then I suggest that when you see the rabble rousers needling and trolling for a response, you perhaps express your disapproval of their behavior in the most basic, simple, and non-provoking way, but otherwise don't grant them an audience for their remarks. Forgive their insults, do not engage.

To those who've already staked out a claim to some injustice or behavior that you feel needs addressed, I'd ask that you please let it go, and move on. I will forgive and forget, and the forums at large will forgive and forget. Please go ahead and leave the past in the past, and focus the future on what brings joy without being at someone else's expense. No matter how justified your complaint, or how frustrated you feel, I would ask that you bury that complaint in the interest of not cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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Organichu on
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    TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    That was well said. I love these forums like crazy and they got me through a very dark period of my life when I first joined up and I sincerely don't want them to vanish from the internet because we've all fallen into stupid infighting because we don't all agree to the same degree about something.

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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    I don't really know you, Ramius, so I don't know what's going on in your heart of hearts, but this reads as passive-aggressive vagueposting. There are trolls, rabble-rousers, and people who want to see the world burn in our midst? Aren't you in a position to do something about it? Why haven't they been banned? Wouldn't that suggest a failure of leadership?

    I have an alternative hypothesis. With a slowly declining userbase and minimal influx of new blood, I think that the number of actual trolls - that is, people who are being insincere - is pretty low.

    Rather, I presume that this is a response to the SE++ introspection thread(s) where multiple long-term forumers had grievances about D&D moderation. Whether those grievances were legitimate or not, they were sincere. They weren't merely trolling or trying to burn down the forums.

    If you don't think their grievances are reasonable, that's fine. Those threads are mixed bags that span the gamut from reasonable grievances, to reasonably grievances expressed poorly, to unreasonable grievances. I agree with some of their complaints, disagree with others, and we might have only partially overlapping notions on which complaints are valid.

    But referring to them obliquely and anonymously, calling them trolls and rabble-rousers and comparing them to Heath Ledger's Joker, aren't effective forms of community management. You're telling a significant swath of our community that you don't respect them or what they have to say, and you're telling the rest of us to disregard them too.

    Or perhaps I'm reading too much into your post. That's the problem with relying too heavily on subtext. Folks can read between the lines, but what your audience perceives may not be what you intended. I may be completely misreading you! That's the danger of vagueposting.

    Either way, regardless of the other ambiguities in your post, ending it with a call to bury your complaints is sending a strong signal - it doesn't matter what we, the plebians, think of feel about this forum. 20 years ago when the forum was thriving, "my way or the highway" worked because we had more new users per time than deserters. Today, that attitude will just accelerate desertion.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    I don't know if this is intentional or not, but "I asked a computer to write a good chunk of this post for me" is not an amazing way to open up what is ostensibly meant to be read as a thoughtful and diplomatic contribution.

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    AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    Sorry, I'm not sure what this is about. I don't read a lot of D&D threads and mostly stick to subjects that directly affect me. Would you care to explain what is going on in more plain English?

    Edit: just saw that there's the same sticky on SE++, so this is about DJ Eebs' thread from a couple of weeks ago. I feel like a lot of frustration could be alleviated by way of speaking more plainly.

    Aldo on
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    I don't know if this is intentional or not, but "I asked a computer to write a good chunk of this post for me" is not an amazing way to open up what is ostensibly meant to be read as a thoughtful and diplomatic contribution.

    It's the "Webster's defines [x] as..." for the modern age

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 21
    As someone who strives to be polite and diplomatic, I agree with much of the sentiment here.

    However, based simply on infractions and especially thread kicks, there are a number of users who seem to be unwilling or unable to participate in certain heated discussions without going too far.

    It is on us (collectively) to not to rise to the bait, but perhaps if a few sparks are enough to set the dry kindling of the forums ablaze, maybe someone with authority should remove those sparks in the first place.

    I’d say something self deprecating like how if I’m one of them, so be it, but as someone who doesn’t get kicked from threads regularly, obviously that’d be insincere.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    I also don’t think that I’ve gotten much in the way of warnings or thread kicks, but I am pretty guilty of this:

    yb4i2mwisz8p.png

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I really think that to be effective, when we get posts like this from an admin it also needs to come with a commitment to stick around the forum for a few hours after so questions and concerns can get a direct response.

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    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I don't know if this is intentional or not, but "I asked a computer to write a good chunk of this post for me" is not an amazing way to open up what is ostensibly meant to be read as a thoughtful and diplomatic contribution.

    It's bluntly, farcical. In SE++ which has a very broad anti ai bias (hi, it's me, I'm part of that bias), it's outright foolish and self defeating at best, deliberately provocative and insulting at worst.

    Here? I 'm not going to attempt to speak for this subforum, we've spilled enough ink on our disagreements over AI. But it certainly reads patronising.

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    I really think that to be effective, when we get posts like this from an admin it also needs to come with a commitment to stick around the forum for a few hours after so questions and concerns can get a direct response.

    tbh it less seems like an admin action and more like a guy stumbled online, went "oh shit people are mad : ( " and then went back to bed

    liEt3nH.png
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    TroyPizza.gif

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I don't know if this is intentional or not, but "I asked a computer to write a good chunk of this post for me" is not an amazing way to open up what is ostensibly meant to be read as a thoughtful and diplomatic contribution.

    It's bluntly, farcical. In SE++ which has a very broad anti ai bias (hi, it's me, I'm part of that bias), it's outright foolish and self defeating at best, deliberately provocative and insulting at worst.

    Here? I 'm not going to attempt to speak for this subforum, we've spilled enough ink on our disagreements over AI. But it certainly reads patronising.

    Is there a solidified general stance on AI? Because I've seen people get treated like shit both ways.

    You're for AI? I guess you're for bullshit corporation practices hurting artists. Fucking asshole.

    Oh you're against AI? I guess you're also against lowering the barrier of entry for creative works and for artists having more tools that don't cost large amounts of money. Fucking gatekeeper.

    Almost as if the actual stance for/against AI doesn't actually matter in the moment. Just wait for the other person to take a stance first so you know which opposite haymaker to hit them with.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    There is, publicly, little support for the existing mods by Geebs nor enforcement of the rules. The kids might be fighting, but that's just the problem. The root cause is that mommy and daddy have stopped disciplining the children.

    Is this coming about because Jerry and Mike have been bothered by enough folks that they are threatening to pull the plug? Or has Geebs privately contemplated quitting as admin and taking the forums down?

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    HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    Look, there are the good, handsome, charming, morally upright, and all around swell people on this forum. Each and everyone of them a delight, as well as being talented and generous lovers.
    And then there's the others, and they're a sort that society could well do without.

    And I know which side I'm on!

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    tyrannustyrannus i am not fat Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    There's a malicious and savory flavor to the idea of having the new moderator be an Ai trained on all of the posts of the forums. Just recklessly fantastic. Like a good pun or a loud fart in a crowded elevator

    tyrannus on
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    I don't know if this is intentional or not, but "I asked a computer to write a good chunk of this post for me" is not an amazing way to open up what is ostensibly meant to be read as a thoughtful and diplomatic contribution.

    It's bluntly, farcical. In SE++ which has a very broad anti ai bias (hi, it's me, I'm part of that bias), it's outright foolish and self defeating at best, deliberately provocative and insulting at worst.

    Here? I 'm not going to attempt to speak for this subforum, we've spilled enough ink on our disagreements over AI. But it certainly reads patronising.

    Is there a solidified general stance on AI? Because I've seen people get treated like shit both ways.

    You're for AI? I guess you're for bullshit corporation practices hurting artists. Fucking asshole.

    Oh you're against AI? I guess you're also against lowering the barrier of entry for creative works and for artists having more tools that don't cost large amounts of money. Fucking gatekeeper.

    Almost as if the actual stance for/against AI doesn't actually matter in the moment. Just wait for the other person to take a stance first so you know which opposite haymaker to hit them with.

    There kind of is it just depends which subforum you're in. SE++ hates it and D&D is slightly for it.

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    On any divisive topic, people will develop opposing opinions and cluster around people that share that opinion, especially if the merits of each side are just too painful to debate

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    Feral wrote: »
    I don't really know you, Ramius, so I don't know what's going on in your heart of hearts, but this reads as passive-aggressive vagueposting. There are trolls, rabble-rousers, and people who want to see the world burn in our midst? Aren't you in a position to do something about it? Why haven't they been banned? Wouldn't that suggest a failure of leadership?

    I have an alternative hypothesis. With a slowly declining userbase and minimal influx of new blood, I think that the number of actual trolls - that is, people who are being insincere - is pretty low.

    Rather, I presume that this is a response to the SE++ introspection thread(s) where multiple long-term forumers had grievances about D&D moderation. Whether those grievances were legitimate or not, they were sincere. They weren't merely trolling or trying to burn down the forums.

    If you don't think their grievances are reasonable, that's fine. Those threads are mixed bags that span the gamut from reasonable grievances, to reasonably grievances expressed poorly, to unreasonable grievances. I agree with some of their complaints, disagree with others, and we might have only partially overlapping notions on which complaints are valid.

    But referring to them obliquely and anonymously, calling them trolls and rabble-rousers and comparing them to Heath Ledger's Joker, aren't effective forms of community management. You're telling a significant swath of our community that you don't respect them or what they have to say, and you're telling the rest of us to disregard them too.

    Or perhaps I'm reading too much into your post. That's the problem with relying too heavily on subtext. Folks can read between the lines, but what your audience perceives may not be what you intended. I may be completely misreading you! That's the danger of vagueposting.

    Either way, regardless of the other ambiguities in your post, ending it with a call to bury your complaints is sending a strong signal - it doesn't matter what we, the plebians, think of feel about this forum. 20 years ago when the forum was thriving, "my way or the highway" worked because we had more new users per time than deserters. Today, that attitude will just accelerate desertion.

    The main thing accelerating desertion right now is shitty behaviour and a lack of moderator action to curb said shitty behaviour. A vague sticky with no action is just more of the same.


    Also frankly:
    the SE++ introspection thread(s) where multiple long-term forumers had grievances about D&D moderation
    basically says it all doesn't it?

    shryke on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    We need to get even vauger

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    We need to get even vauger

    Things have happened

    I have opinions

    The two may be related

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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    JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    i appreciate the sentiment of this post but i think its just a repackage of things that have already been said (and have gotten pretty much the same reaction)

    after what has become literal months of handwringing and anxiety over the direction of the forums I think it would be best for whoever actually runs the forums (literally who) to just go ahead and make their call on what this forum is going to be anymore and let things begin to play out

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    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    OP ha united us all in thinking it kind of sucks, so there's that at least

    SummaryJudgment on
    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

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    SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    SummaryJudgment on
    Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    As I said, the SE++ introspection being about how much they hate D&D mods is just a huge fucking neon glowing sign.

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    Chat. Thread.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Amazing

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    Kane Red RobeKane Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    What a fantastic example of exactly what Ramius is asking people not to do. Lovely.

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    I'm like the same age as you and regularly post in D&D and chat.

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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    People who post in SE and DND aren't as two separate a groups as a lot of you like to act like.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    good work ramius

    liEt3nH.png
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Tbh I think a lot of the problems I have with current D&D are summed up pretty well with how people turned “a few people have issues with D&D mods and decided to co-opt a thread in se++ to talk about it” into “well ALL SE++ is just a RAVENOUS VULGAR MASS who ALL HATE THE D&D MODS”

    no one thinks People post they only think Groups post

    liEt3nH.png
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    As I said, the SE++ introspection being about how much they hate D&D mods is just a huge fucking neon glowing sign.

    Well, the thing is, people who post exclusively in SE++ don't care about D&D moderation. It's people who post in both, or used to post in D&D until they feel they were forcefully driven away, who have opinions about such things.

    The threads are also not about "hating D&D mods". There's plenty of issues to discuss, the moderation style of certain past and future D&D mods being just one of them.

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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    Tbh I think a lot of the problems I have with current D&D are summed up pretty well with how people turned “a few people have issues with D&D mods and decided to co-opt a thread in se++ to talk about it” into “well ALL SE++ is just a RAVENOUS VULGAR MASS who ALL HATE THE D&D MODS”

    no one thinks People post they only think Groups post

    Similar to how some folks have simply taken the notion that D&D is a hive of bigots who game the infraction system to their favor to antagonize their enemies and just repeat it as if it’s true.

    Marathon on
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    mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Tbh I think a lot of the problems I have with current D&D are summed up pretty well with how people turned “a few people have issues with D&D mods and decided to co-opt a thread in se++ to talk about it” into “well ALL SE++ is just a RAVENOUS VULGAR MASS who ALL HATE THE D&D MODS”

    no one thinks People post they only think Groups post

    Yes, your current demonizing of a subforum is absolutely not contributing to tensions.


    There's a real lack of moderation going on, but there's also a whole bunch of people who are actively looking for fights. One of the main reason I am posting less and less.

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Tbh I think a lot of the problems I have with current D&D are summed up pretty well with how people turned “a few people have issues with D&D mods and decided to co-opt a thread in se++ to talk about it” into “well ALL SE++ is just a RAVENOUS VULGAR MASS who ALL HATE THE D&D MODS”

    no one thinks People post they only think Groups post

    Yes, your current demonizing of a subforum is absolutely not contributing to tensions.


    There's a real lack of moderation going on, but there's also a whole bunch of people who are actively looking for fights. One of the main reason I am posting less and less.

    I post in D&D. I am saying that, as a D&D poster, for years and years and years, there has been a cultural problem with othering. If you want to take that as me saying You Suck, I'm a SE++ poster, I don't have a lot I can do about that. It's not my problem if you want to imagine someone I'm not because someone else pissed you off.

    liEt3nH.png
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 21
    reVerse wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    As I said, the SE++ introspection being about how much they hate D&D mods is just a huge fucking neon glowing sign.

    Well, the thing is, people who post exclusively in SE++ don't care about D&D moderation. It's people who post in both, or used to post in D&D until they feel they were forcefully driven away, who have opinions about such things.

    The threads are also not about "hating D&D mods". There's plenty of issues to discuss, the moderation style of certain past and future D&D mods being just one of them.

    And yet it's ostensibly a thread about the SE++ forum. A thread by SE++ posters about the problems with that forum. But there was lots of posting devoted to the problems with D&D and their mods. Over multiple threads.

    Including that really fucking weird and creepy thing where people tried to publicly shame one of the D&D mods for immorality.

    shryke on
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    It seems like 90% of both subforums don't want anything to do with one another, but only one of them has a core of maybe 6-10 people who brigade the other to tell them how much they suck

    Imho, ban the brigading and we're set

    Yeah, I hate how D&D rags on SE for being a shithole

    call me back we've got a 40 page thread ragging on them

    Go post this shit on SE's discord now while you're at it, you child

    As I said, the SE++ introspection being about how much they hate D&D mods is just a huge fucking neon glowing sign.

    Well, the thing is, people who post exclusively in SE++ don't care about D&D moderation. It's people who post in both, or used to post in D&D until they feel they were forcefully driven away, who have opinions about such things.

    The threads are also not about "hating D&D mods". There's plenty of issues to discuss, the moderation style of certain past and future D&D mods being just one of them.

    And yet it's ostensibly a thread about the SE++ forum. But there was lots of posting devoted to the problems with D&D and their mods. Over multiple threads.

    Including that really fucking weird and creepy thing where people tried to publicly shame one of the D&D mods for immorality.

    And you'll note that one of the things that quickly came up after people were doing that is "This is weird, this sucks, and this is really pulling away from the things we actually want to discuss our problems with"

    liEt3nH.png
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    BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    Can we just seal the political threads so I can watch them like I'm at a curious zoo filled with venomous animals and not have to worry about falling in on my way to the movie thread

    I just wanna driveby post about neat stuff and lurk amongst the internet folks I'm comfortable with

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    HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    If we are, as a group, fucking incapable of knocking off this tedious bullshit for five goddamn minutes, then yeah. Might as well pull the fucking plug.

    - this post written by chatGPT

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