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[Tabletop Games] The White Throne of Midnight Regrets
The Zombie Penguin
Eternal Hungry CorpseRegistered User regular
Eternal Hungry CorpseRegistered User regular
Tabletop Games! Lancer! Blades in the Dark! Costume Fairy Adventures! Icon! Gubat Banwa! ICON! Pathfinder! Mörk Borg! Pathfinder 2E!
There's so fucking many! Talk about them here! Some of them arent even TTPRGS, but Board Games!
Tell us what you've been playing, what your party';s been up to, what yer planning!
And if you have to, really have to you, you can talk about DnD. Fair warning: Talking about DnD may lead the thread to trying to rebuild DnD yet again. Talking about Monopoly or Risk may just get you shot, however.
There's so fucking many! Talk about them here! Some of them arent even TTPRGS, but Board Games!
Tell us what you've been playing, what your party';s been up to, what yer planning!
And if you have to, really have to you, you can talk about DnD. Fair warning: Talking about DnD may lead the thread to trying to rebuild DnD yet again. Talking about Monopoly or Risk may just get you shot, however.
Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
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Sure, wizards could learn every spell in the world, but could only cast the ones they had thought to prepare, and only once each (unless they give up another slot), so in practice you the player have to be psychic or you're left out to dry.
Ah, I hear you say, just write spell scrolls! Firstly, I did the math, and I could in no way afford it; loot was not enough. Secondly, it feels dumb; how much time would my character realistically spend frantically searching for the one scroll of feather fall in his 100-scroll pile of assorted useless spells? Thirdly, I did the math, and I did not have the time to scribe scrolls, get the requisite amount of sleep to refresh spells, and actually adventure. (As a corollary, all the other characters would get to have cool side adventures in the tavern or whatever while I was stuck in the room writing scrolls; too real.)
In related news the Witch in my Kingmaker campaign has been getting the short end of the stick on magic treasure so I'm going to be having an upcoming antagonist wielding a staff she can snag as loot. One of the complaints she's had about her class is that most of her really cool hexes and spells are mind affecting so she's always having to fall back on lame stuff like Burning Hands whenever the party fights undead or constructs, so I've been working through the witch spell list for a fun theme with spells what can damage mindless creatures. Here's what I'm thinking so far:
Howling Rod
This 6' staff is made of what appears to be bone and sinew but even more unsettling are the multitude of fleshy mouths studding it's entire length. The mouths appear to be from a great variety of creatures and while they are supposedly inanimate you swear you occasionally catch one licking it's lips out of the corner of your eye.
Wielding the Howling Rod gives you access to the following spells:
Ear Piercing Scream (1 charge)
Screech (2 charges)
I'd like to add a third spell but it turns out a lot of the good yell based attack spells aren't on the witch spell list for some reason.
I was going to furiously type out a retort but uh.....I actually agree.
I've never played a PF1e wizard, I always played a sorc and just played it like a god wizard. I grabbed spells like grease, mount, web, etc, and I just went hard in the paint with control and buffs. Rarely had to worry about my spell slots because I had so many, only real issue I ever had was that on rare occasion I wanted more spell options and I couldn't have them.
Additionally, Charisma is a very useful roleplaying stat during downtime and I've found that if I play a D&D clone of any kind and I don't have some Cha I am miserable because I love to interact with NPC's.
EDIT: Also, the last time I played a Sorc I eventually went Diabolist and I had an Imp as my Wand Caddy and it was wonderful.
The big thing with wizards vs. sorcerers is that they get access to new spell levels one level sooner, and also (of course) just have way more spells available and thus can afford to know some niche ones that would be awful in a sorcerer's limited repertoire.
Also, important for those niche spells and the question of having to predict when you need them: you don't, actually.
...Also also, when people talk about scribing scrolls it's generally about the lowest levels. 1st-level scrolls are just 25gp a pop (with the treasure per CR1 encounter being 260gp), after all, and you can scribe one every day with just two hours of free time. Note that "Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items", so your inn room or camp work just fine... and I think you'll generally have at least two hours to spare in the evening? Like, this is just a "the wizard works on scribing scrolls between dinner and bed" thing.
Of course, keep in mind that the big talk about the sorcerer just being worst than the wizard come from D&D 3.5, which is a very different beast from Pathfinder 1E in many ways. The Pathfinder sorcerer is a much better class, and the wizard was... somewhat pulled down in power.
It is the sort of thing that'll bog a table down though. Vanician casting is cool in theory and he'll in actual decision paralysis practice.
But this goes back to things like simulation or gameplay first, etc
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Trying to deal with the new fate mechanics and the shorter game length made me lose sight of the fundamental strategy of base arcs that the campaign still requires and I absolutely ruined myself
An arcs campaign is 3 acts (games) and at the end of game 1 I had -2 points and at the end of game 2 I have -8 points and have become a living cautionary tale about overextending yourself
Yeah but now what does sorcerer offer in their spellcasting that wizard doesn't, in addition to being able to change their spell list if they want to and learn niche stuff?
In 3.5 they were strictly worse, in effectively every way, than Wizards.
A lot of the online discourse around wizards being OP tends to assume that they always have the perfect spell selection prepared for every encounter, even if having that particular spell list is impossible given that there are multiple encounters in a day.
Which is true, that's the wizard power fantasy; if you are perfectly prepared and perfectly ready for a very specific situation, you can solve it. Most of the time, you won't be, and your gameplay will be around using the resources and preparation that you do actually have to adjust to the existing situation.
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Every person playing a wizard must hand copy each spell in their spellbook from the PHB into their own personal book of shadows. Any mistakes in copying or in reading the effects back to the DM when asked will result in the spell failing. If they ever forget to bring this book to a session, they cannot cast any spells that session unless they have memorized and can recite them word for word. If you are the roommate of the wizard player you are allowed and encouraged to secretly move the book around while they are at work.
Fuckin' sweet!
I present to you, Sacred Geometry:
You can use your mathematical prowess to add metamagic effects to your spells without using a higher-level spell slot.
Prerequisite(s): Int 13, Knowledge (engineering) 2 ranks
Benefit(s): When you take this feat, select two metamagic feats you do not yet have. When casting a spell, you can perform the steps below to spontaneously apply the effects of either or both of these metamagic feats, as well as any other metamagic feats you have, to the spell without expending a higher-level spell slot. Using a feat in this way increases the spell’s casting time to the casting time it would take if the character were a sorcerer or bard (sorcerers and bards using this ability increase the spell’s casting time by two categories); applying the Quicken Spell metamagic effect negates the increased casting time but still contributes to the modified spell’s effective spell level. You can take this feat more than once; each time, select two additional metamagic feats, adding their effects to the list of possible effects you can apply to spells with this ability.
When casting a spell using Sacred Geometry, first determine the effective spell level of the modified spell you are attempting to cast (calculated as normal for a spell modified by metamagic feats). You can apply any number of metamagic effects to a single spell, provided you are able to cast spells of the modified spell’s effective spell level.
Refer to the Prime Constants table to determine the prime constants that can be used to cast a spell of the desired effective spell level. Then roll a number of d6s equal to the number of ranks you possess in Knowledge (engineering). Perform some combination of addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division upon the numbers rolled that gives rise to one of the relevant prime constants. If you can produce one of the relevant prime constants, the spell takes effect with the declared metamagic effects, and you expend a spell slot of the unaltered spell’s level. If you are unsuccessful, you fail to cast the spell, the action used to cast the spell is lost, and the spell slot is used up. The DC of any concentration check to cast a spell affected by this feat uses the effective spell level used to determine the prime constants, even though a successful casting of the spell does not expend a higher-level spell slot.
Table: Prime Constants
Effective Spell Level Prime Constants
1st 3, 5, 7
2nd 11, 13, 17
3rd 19, 23, 29
4th 31, 37, 41
5th 43, 47, 53
6th 59, 61, 67
7th 71, 73, 79
8th 83, 89, 97
9th 101, 103, 107
For example, suppose a wizard wants to add the enlarged and empowered effects to the magic missile he just cast. He adds the total level increases of the metamagic effects to the spell level: 2 [empower] + 1 [enlarge] + 1 [magic missile‘s base level] = 4, so the spell’s effective level is 4. The wizard refers to the Prime Constants table, and determines that the prime constants for that effective spell level are 31, 37, and 41.
Since the wizard has 5 ranks in Knowledge (engineering), he rolls 5d6. The results of his dice pool are 6, 6, 4, 3 and 1.
He then performs the following operations to give rise to one of the prime constants he needs: (6 × 6) + (4 – 3) × 1 = 37.
Note that he could also combine the numbers as follows: ([6 + 6] × 3) + 4 + 1 = 41. He has produced one of the prime constants for the desired effective spell level, so his empowered enlarged magic missile takes effect after the full-round casting time, and uses only a 1st-level spell slot.
If the result of his dice pool were 1, 1, 2, and 5, he would have been unable to produce any of the relevant prime constants. His attempt would have been unsuccessful, and he would have expended a full-round action and his prepared 1st-level magic missile spell with no effect.
Edit: putting that in spoilers because it's huge. As far as I know, no one has ever taken that feat because it would be insane to use it
Redesign the entire wizard class around that feat, I want that required for casting any spell above a cantrip. No more spell slots, just math. You should have to solve a sudoku every turn of combat.
It went really well!
I still need to find a proper solution for basing the paper standups I print off from retrograde minis, and I need to keep fleshing out my campaign outline, but I feel really good about the hook, the primary thrust of the campaign, and the swerves I have planned.
But also simultaneously I'm glad I've got a Ring of Spell Storing so I can just put 5 level 1 utility spells of value in it and not have it take up a quarter of my allowed preperations at level 17.
but also yeah it slows down the game like little else
(consider also: Pathfinder 1E's Words of Power, which was an underpowered build-you-own-spell system that worked better for sorcerers since they could DIY on the fly... which also had the potential to grind the game to a halt on their turn)
Yeah I like this in theory, but I feel like in practice it just ends up being wizards preparing the same damage spells every day (which will always be useful) and then maybe a couple of utility spells that they'll try and find a way to use.
I feel like if you could adjust that balance, or make it so the damage spells feel like they need to be more situational, you could get into a place I like with it. Like, every creature is strong to all but one damage type sort of thing, so you need to either do a little scrying at the beginning of the day to see what spells you should prepare, or instead just rely on utility style spells, make yourself useful in a more subtle way.
Castor + Pollux setting:
PC's are lancers in a Union Navy carrier ship that's been commandeered by an ambassador with DoJ/HR. They're escorting a new already-constructed Blink Gate from Cradle to Pollux, the intent is to reduce the amount of time spent for shipping and receiving goods in return for diplomatic consideration.
PC's are woken from hypersleep because they lost contact from the Blink Gate, and the PC's have to investigate. PC's get dropped onto the Blink Gate exterior, they fight pirates, they regain control of the Blink Gate. Some of the pirates have Castorian emblems on them, which is odd because everyone on Castor died 200 years ago. Also, the pirates never responded to hails at all.
PC's get back on the carrier, they go the rest of the way to Pollux. There's a bunch of handshaking, a small procession is put together for the ambassador, there's an assassination attempt by Castorians. The PC's are on security detail and they deal with this. The Castorians repeatedly call the PC's "Imposters." Because they're Union, and Union is going to get in the way of Castorian revenge, right? Well....
The PC's will then have to go and run security for a mining facility that the ambassador is visiting. Castorians will attack again, PC's will have to fight them. But as the fighting commences, the ambassador is going to get quickly escorted back to the dropship, and will order the dropship to depart without the PC's. The PC's are stranded on the platform by themselves, surrounded by the enemy, and hopefully I can eke out a surrender from a PC party, we'll see!
Act II
The PC's are escorted to Castor, where they learn Castorians are still alive, and have been living in secret all this time. They're exposed to some of the political realities on Castor, and then they're brought in for an interrogation. During the interrogation, they learn the truth:
The pirates found the Blink Gate that was heading to Pollux, they ambushed the escorting ship via clever use of stolen command codes, and then they sent the brainwashed PC's to assault the Blink Gate. Their systems had been tampered with so that they saw already-existing battle damage where there was none (during the first encounter, enemies walked through clearly marked hazardous terrain and took no damage and I brushed past this with zero explanation). They also see Castorian insignias where there are none. The PC's thought they fought off pirates and re-took command of the Blink Gate. They instead actually pirated it and killed all of the guards. The ambassador is not a Union ambassador, he's an escaped SecComm member who ran away during the revolution and has been extending his life through bullshit bullshit bullshit.
The Castorians let this sink in for a while, and then when the PC's finally accept this, they will be given an opportunity for justice, revenge, you name it. The first step: You're going to need a ship.
Over the course of Act II they will acquire resources so that the Castorians can build them a ship that rivals the carrier they started the game with, doing various missions. Then:
Act III
The PC's launch an attack on the carrier ship. I haven't fleshed this out very well yet, but we'll get there. But the objective is to subdue the ship long enough for the PC's to get dropped onto the Blink Gate again, and re-take it, and hook the Blink Gate up to Union's network. They'll meet a shit-on of resistance, and they may have to get a ton of allies, both Castorian and Polluxian to accomplish this, as unsavory jerkoffs keep pouring in through the Blink Gate in the meantime, old friends of the pirates who brought it here.
But if the PC's succeed, Union will send a carrier group through the Blink Gate to end the conflict. Then Union will hire the PC's as mercenaries to bring the not-ambassador to justice, there's a final fight at the Syzygy meeting hall on Pollux, the end.
TBH this is why I think the D&D "fuck it wizards are basically spontaneous, just with a wider library," is more fun for me than PF2e. Though I've not got to play (just DM) a caster in PF2e.
Way more leeway to just strap fireball and magic missile and go "yeah damage is covered lemme do the sicko shit,"
I'd be down for a monster hunting style "You gotta have researched the target and prep the right damage," stuff but it'd be a very different game framework than D&D adventuring days.
I've played a PF2E Wizard, they're actually very good. The issue really isn't how many castings a day you have, it's quite easy to end up with a ton of them. The issue with PF2E spellcasting in general is that it's very difficult to find low-tier spells that maintain effectiveness throughout the campaign or even have any use at all later on. The primary reason for this is that the incap tag is a pariah for spell selection, but also there is no "caster level" pump-up for any spells, only cantrips get pumped up this way. So pretty quickly your level 1-3 spells are a worse option than just using a cantrip.
I think maybe in a 1on1 game I could see doing it but if there's literally anyone else in the party they are obligated to stab whoever takes the feat.
Unless your wizard is a literal math wizard in real life, I'm pretty sure the DM is still obligated to stab them, or at least wing a dice at them.
I'm trying to think of anything worse than doing math to see if I can make a prime number out of my dice, and the only thing I can come up with is watching someone else do math trying to make a prime number out of their dice.
It depends on what you want out of the spell, I guess. For damage, yeah, the way spells work only your highest slots are going to be useful. But for everything else you can get a lot of work out of lower spell slots. If you've got time to throw out buffs before charging in, there's a lot of good level 2/3 spells you can throw onto the frontliners that are just as effective at level 10 as level 5. And yeah, the nastiest debuffing spells have that annoying incapacitate trait, but throwing out Dazzled on an enemy group will easily negate a few hits to the frontline (the more targets the better, really) and only takes a level 2 slot.
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I think the only damage spells I had were fire bolt and magic missile and I never used them, I spent every turn casting grease or web or fog cloud and just completely bogging down any cluster of enemies in the worst place they've ever been forced to stand, lie, or repeatedly fall down in
I don't really know where I was going with this but I will say I think the wizard can way too easily wind up with frankly too many spells on hand that they probably won't use and can lead to choice paralysis. Sorcerer removes a lot of the cognitive load. Well, I imagine it does - never played one myself, but I feel like that's true, and isn't that what sorcery is all about
Honestly I think this indirectly cuts to the quick of one of my major problems with D&D.
For me it feels too complicated and messy a game to not want to be playing that sort of monster hunter shit. If you have a dozen different damage types, I want those to be front of mind, I want them to come up every session. For just rocking through a dungeon lobbing fireballs through every threshold, I feel like I've got better options.
I think the restriction of the Vancian spellcasting system is a necessary component to balance the Wizard against the Sorcerer.
"Hey, can you cast Invisibility again for us?"
"Sorry, I thought we'd only need it once today, so I only prepared one casting of it..."
I think that not only balanced Wizards but also makes them a far more interesting class to play, as the player has to actually put a deeper level of consideration into what they are bringing as a spellcaster to the group on that particular day.
And I think this also provides a space for a party to have a Wizard and a Sorcerer. The Wizard, with some heads-up, can be the utility mage that helps the party overcome a very unique/niche problem, while the Sorcerer can be relied upon for consistent magic (like blasting or enchantment).
I know 5e isn't a perfect system, as much fun as I've had with it, and I know as written it's primarily a combat system, but "which guy gets bigger numbers" just seems like the least fun way to play to me
"They've nerfed ranged weapons, why would you ever pick an archer over a melee fighter now??" because it's a difference of like 2 average damage and bows are fucking cool I guess?
edit: this is not really what this conversation is about right now but I just wanted to grumble about it a bit
God do I want a game about being a troupe of weird monster hunters/occassional bounty hunters when pickings are slim travelling town to town and barely welcomed unless on a job.
That's not quite right. Spells with static dice sizes, typically things that damage or heal, all scale based on spell slot rank, but effects that do saving throw status effect stuff scale purely off your spellcasting DC, which scales naturally with your level, so they don't need upranking bonuses and work pretty well in lower rank spell slots as well. And then utility stuff like illusions or slow fall or fly or whatever sometimes gets some benefits from being cast at a higher rank but mostly they're just as effective when cast at their low ranks. So at high levels, crowd control and utility are good uses for your lower rank slots.
Buff and debuff and utility spells usually get upranking bonuses that just say "at X rank this affects 10 people instead of 1" to save a list entry for "mass haste/charm/confuse" now that I think about it.