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US [Election] of 2024 - Post Mortem

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Posts

  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited November 8
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I feel like as the party that supposedly owns the value set of reciprocal tolerance, abandoning any rights issue is always fatal to your credibility.

    At most I'd be comfortable with re-framing things along the lines of "it's a free fucking country, government can't tell ME what MY gender is!" because Americans generally understand the sentiment of not wanting some idiot in Washington DC deciding matters of their personal life, philosophy, or faith.

    You extend that general principle to, "But it is the government's job to provide equal protection of the law, including for trans people" and you may have more luck. You're not going to convince like, devout Catholics, that being trans isn't a disordered behavior incompatible with the teachings of the Church, but you don't have to - you have to convince Americans it's none of their business. Which is much easier.

    "Everybody gets a fair shake" and "it's a free country", that sort of thing. There's a reason the anti-trans moral panic largely framed things as agency being taken away from (mainly parents); something being done to them by sinister forces, rather than something people want for themselves.

    I know at least one person who would be a lot easier to talk to if gender affirming care was for anyone suffering from issues with gender expression etc.

    I bring it up only because the one time I managed to convince someone to swap positions on gay marriage was just by saying, "It's a free country, if the government can tell people they need to be straight, they can tell people they need to be gay. Government shouldn't have that kind of power."

    Professor Phobos on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    I'm gonna guess you also identify as an apache helicopter?

    Hahnsoo1 on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Seriously, ELM posted "Trans rights are a losing issue."

    He told a bunch of people that he thinks openly fighting for them is a bad idea, and when he was RIGHTLY told how that was a shitty thing to do, he instead chose to leave the forum rather than even have a modicum of self reflection. He wasn't even banned, just got a warning and some people let him know that opinion wasn't appreciated, and that was too much for him to handle.

    But trans rights are a losing issue. We have run the test. American democracy is anti-trans.

    What you do with that info is not abandon trans people. You fight harder for them. Just not elecotorally. Not democratically. When the democratically elected law of the land becomes "round up the trans for the camps", you do not obey the law. If the choice is democracy or trans lives, you choose trans lives.

    What's your evidence it's a losing issue? Republicans who made that the sole plank of their platform lost this year and in 2022 and 2020, plenty of progressives who actually do support trans rights won, a trans woman got elected to congress, now she's also pro-Israel which is a bummer, but baby steps.

    Those are some really good points. Strong evidence I'm wrong.

    So if I'm wrong, what does it all mean? What do those wins for trans people mean when Donald Trump is elected president? What do those voters think?

    What do these fucking animals even want, goddammit?

    maybe start by not calling them animals for fucks' sake

    child poverty went up under biden

    medicare enrollments went down under biden

    no improvements made to health insurance

    billions of dollars in munitions to israel

    pictures of dead children every day on social media

    what *could* this unknowable electorate possibly want?

    1936_large.png

    So why did they vote for the person that will, without question, make all of those problems worse? Is this the wrong question to ask?

    You're right I shouldn't call them animals. I still don't recognize them as people. My idea of human thought, philosophically and the tools i use to navigate mundane social interactions, do not map to these people. They are obviously people, so I'm wrong somehow, and I'm trying to figure out how I'm wrong.

    Find some and ask them I guess. They may not exactly tell the truth but at least you’ll be talking.

    I think there is a lot of ignorance out there, but I think the time that we can say “well you’re obviously behaving irrationally” and just ignore it is pretty much gone.

  • lutefisklutefisk Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    i would like to hear explicitly what you think you’ll gain if democrats de-emphasize trans rights (even more).

    what exactly is the value proposition you have in mind? you have one, surely. otherwise ons might suspect you are reacting out of your own discomfort around trans people.

  • lutefisklutefisk Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    i would like to hear explicitly what you think you’ll gain if democrats de-emphasize trans rights (even more).

    what exactly is the value proposition you have in mind? you have one, surely. otherwise ons might suspect you are reacting out of your own discomfort around trans people.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    It's cute you say this. But people are literally quitting the forum and nuking their post histories because posters here openly approve of stalking other posters off site and harassing them. So, maybe you should stop for a minute and think about why someone might mean that statement.

  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Nobody wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    The right wing doesn't convince anyone, they threaten the existence of everyone that doesn't conform to their standards while scaremongering their primary audience to make them as fearful of their opposition as possible. The "work" is chumming the waters with as much propaganda as possible and then doubling down on what the apparent flavor of the season is: wokeness, DEI, critical race theory, etc.

    Seriously stop fucking handing it to these people. They aren't doing clever grassroots organizing, they're just shamelessly spreading vicious lies. The only thing I'll say they figured out before us is to stop fucking caring what mainstream media says about you. They learned that lesson for the wrong reasons, but they were right that you don't need to appeal to media elites to win elections. Biden and Harris were right to start stonewalling the NYT they just should have started doing it years earlier.

    They convince people all the time. The pipeline gets talked about constantly and has for years.

    Like, where do you think all the Jordan Peterson fans came from?

    The only person I know that listens to Jordan Peterson is my religious extremist stepmom. I know his target is troubled young men, but I'm not convinced he's that effective. I've listened to him myself and he's just so boring. A reminder that a lot of the right wing media machine survives off the charity of billionaire activists like the Kochs and Adelsons. If they had to cover their bills with actual revenue alone Daily Wire would go broke. Nobody fucking watched Lady Ballers.

    I'm willing to be Peterson's visibility is a product of algorithm gaming more than anything, but our attempts to copy that with Midas Touch hasn't worked either.

    When I started curating my YouTube feed, one of the first channels I blocked was Peterson (no, I never watched him).

    I spent the next 6 months playing whack-a-mole with surrogate channels who were reposting and discussing his latest bullshit.

    This is such a frustrating thing about social media.

    I had a similar thing with Reddit where when they (largely) nuked third party apps and I was forced back onto the official one, they shove tons and tons of either offensive or just offensively stupid shit into your feed. And you know what doesn’t help? Muting subs.

    Because muting the sub doesn’t mean they stop trying to shove shit into your feed based on whatever their algo thinks your demo is, from all my experience. Instead it just means they shove *other* content from that same sphere into your feed, from subs you haven’t
    muted yet. So the more subs you mute? The further “off the beaten path” the shit in your feed gets. Which is to say it gets worse with each whack at the moles. Almost like the algo thinks you blocked r/JoeRogan because he was too mainstream.

    So instead they mine greedily and deep for the most balrog-ass shit they can find for you. Until finally you’re like “fuck it, put Rogan back in my feed.”

    I can’t imagine how fast the turbosled to fascism runs for guys actually seeking that shit out.

    I had the same problem, and there's actually a solution!

    You can tell the app to stop recommending posts from subs your aren't subscribed to.

    I fully agree that having that "feature" on by default was intended to spread right-wing propaganda, and posts that appeared to be ridiculing right wing propaganda but really just increases the reach of the message.

  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    This has to be one of the most pathetic posts I've ever seen.

  • useruser Registered User regular
    edited November 8
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    Unless I am really not understanding what all happened at all -- the one person who did 'doxx' someone inasmuch as they called someone out on Reddit for things they posted here *was* banned. Then more recently the mods temp banned one person for suggesting that that was an undeserved ban, and that's it.

    Isn't that it?

    And is has no rub at all on what happened here today as far as I can tell.

    user on
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited November 8
    I feel like as the party that supposedly owns the value set of reciprocal tolerance, abandoning any rights issue is always fatal to your credibility.

    At most I'd be comfortable with re-framing things along the lines of "it's a free fucking country, government can't tell ME what MY gender is!" because Americans generally understand the sentiment of not wanting some idiot in Washington DC deciding matters of their personal life, philosophy, or faith.

    You extend that general principle to, "But it is the government's job to provide equal protection of the law, including for trans people" and you may have more luck. You're not going to convince like, devout Catholics, that being trans isn't a disordered behavior incompatible with the teachings of the Church, but you don't have to - you have to convince Americans it's none of their business. Which is much easier.

    "Everybody gets a fair shake" and "it's a free country", that sort of thing. There's a reason the anti-trans moral panic largely framed things as agency being taken away from (mainly parents); something being done to them by sinister forces, rather than something people want for themselves.

    EDIT: I hope this doesn't come off as the chess-piece-playing callous strategy stuff. If so, sorry, didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

    No these chuds absolutely want the government enforcing societal norms. They just want the ones that empower them.

    Another theory I have is that this election is fundamentally the Patriarchy lashing out. Trans folk are specifically targeted because if gender is a spectrum and changeable on an individual level that would mean that all the evil that men do to women is not in fact justified and the folk they abuse are justified and logistically capable of turning that abuse against their abusers.

    Literally "the women I raped could turn into men and then I'm in a whole lot of trouble"

    Nobeard on
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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    I feel like as the party that supposedly owns the value set of reciprocal tolerance, abandoning any rights issue is always fatal to your credibility.

    At most I'd be comfortable with re-framing things along the lines of "it's a free fucking country, government can't tell ME what MY gender is!" because Americans generally understand the sentiment of not wanting some idiot in Washington DC deciding matters of their personal life, philosophy, or faith.

    You extend that general principle to, "But it is the government's job to provide equal protection of the law, including for trans people" and you may have more luck. You're not going to convince like, devout Catholics, that being trans isn't a disordered behavior incompatible with the teachings of the Church, but you don't have to - you have to convince Americans it's none of their business. Which is much easier.

    "Everybody gets a fair shake" and "it's a free country", that sort of thing. There's a reason the anti-trans moral panic largely framed things as agency being taken away from (mainly parents); something being done to them by sinister forces, rather than something people want for themselves.

    EDIT: I hope this doesn't come off as the chess-piece-playing callous strategy stuff. If so, sorry, didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable.

    No these chuds absolutely want the government enforcing societal norms. They just want the ones that empower them.

    Another theory I have is that this election is fundamentally the Patriarchy lashing out. Trans folk are specifically targeted because if gender is a spectrum and changeable on an individual level that would mean that all the evil that men do to women is not in fact justified and the folk they abuse are justified and logistically capable of turning that abuse against their abusers.

    Literally "the women I raped could turn into men and then I'm in a whole lot of trouble"

    The chuds aren't the entirity of the voting base.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    user wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    Unless I am really not understanding what all happened at all -- the one person who did 'doxx' someone inasmuch as they called someone out on Reddit for things they posted here *was* banned. Then more recently the mods temp banned one person for suggesting that that was an undeserved ban, and that's it.

    Isn't that it?

    And is has no rub at all on what happened here today as far as I can tell.

    It absolutely does. Because people are openly defending the stalking. And saying the user shouldn't have been punished for it. And then complaining when people got hit for defending stalking other users. You are sticking your head in the sand if you don't see what people are doing.

    Like, you are literally minimizing the stalking right now.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Trans rights must be defended. There may be some sort of messaging improvement to consider (with literally everything) but the knee-jerk reaction to sacrifice our beliefs to reign on our fears goes nowhere good. There is no magic sacrifice we can make that will save us from evil.

    It is unfortunately very predictable that people will start making shitty statements out of fear depending on their priorities, which they might or might not recant in saner moments. We'll be seeing a lot of this in political groups over the next year.

    I mean, Obama pulled off this move in 2008 with gay marriage. It's not unprecedented to keep your actual agenda around minority groups on the downlow.

    But I think it's still a red herring. Even the anti-trans shit the republicans were running, some of which was apparently quite successful in focus-groups, is in many ways a more fundamentally conservative argument just putting on an anti-trans t-shirt.
    "Harris wants to give gender reassignment surgery to illegal immigrant prisoners!"
    "Harris is for they/them, Trump is for YOU!"
    and so on.
    All use the language of anti-trans hatred but are fundamentally more about "Harris will waste money on people who aren't like you, I will help you". It's a populist government-waste fuck-the-system fuck-the-others get-yours message. In a time where everyone is mad and demanding something new.

    The 2008 electorate and the 2024 electorate are not the same and neither are the opponents. John McCain, for all of his many faults, told a racist supporter at one of his town halls to stop calling Obama Muslim because he wasn't. The GOP in 2024 is going to run the anti-trans shit regardless because that's the most vulnerable part of a larger group they hate.

    Playing to the center on this failed and will continue to fail. If Democrats want a new generation of voters to respect them they need to show pride in supporting trans folk and take the same "we did it and it was awesome" attitude conservatives do except in this case it actually would be awesome.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Seriously, ELM posted "Trans rights are a losing issue."

    He told a bunch of people that he thinks openly fighting for them is a bad idea, and when he was RIGHTLY told how that was a shitty thing to do, he instead chose to leave the forum rather than even have a modicum of self reflection. He wasn't even banned, just got a warning and some people let him know that opinion wasn't appreciated, and that was too much for him to handle.

    But trans rights are a losing issue. We have run the test. American democracy is anti-trans.

    What you do with that info is not abandon trans people. You fight harder for them. Just not elecotorally. Not democratically. When the democratically elected law of the land becomes "round up the trans for the camps", you do not obey the law. If the choice is democracy or trans lives, you choose trans lives.

    What's your evidence it's a losing issue? Republicans who made that the sole plank of their platform lost this year and in 2022 and 2020, plenty of progressives who actually do support trans rights won, a trans woman got elected to congress, now she's also pro-Israel which is a bummer, but baby steps.

    Those are some really good points. Strong evidence I'm wrong.

    So if I'm wrong, what does it all mean? What do those wins for trans people mean when Donald Trump is elected president? What do those voters think?

    What do these fucking animals even want, goddammit?

    maybe start by not calling them animals for fucks' sake

    child poverty went up under biden

    medicare enrollments went down under biden

    no improvements made to health insurance

    billions of dollars in munitions to israel

    pictures of dead children every day on social media

    what *could* this unknowable electorate possibly want?

    1936_large.png

    I mean, let's not forget that the New Deal coalition was built on white supremacy, which led to the gaps in the New Deal that let minorities fall through into the cold, or how trying to fix those gaps was one of the things that kicked off the political realignment we're dealing with.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Cybertronian Paranormal Eliminator Registered User regular
    The question has to be asked, do we want this forum to be a place where telling someone that supporting their rights is a losing issue is an okay thing to do? It's not a discussion on tax brackets, or imports or whatever: We're talking about real people and the right to exist. People that post here on this board, and who are now realizing how expendable some of you think they are.

    It's especially galling when there's no bloody evidence that trans rights had any real effect on this election.

    This is the moment we decide on the character of this forum, and right now, we ain't doing so hot.

    We're not the DNC, we not up for election. We can run this forum however we want without worrying about what Republicans think. I would hope that would mean we wouldn't have to start equiviquating on human rights.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Trans rights must be defended. There may be some sort of messaging improvement to consider (with literally everything) but the knee-jerk reaction to sacrifice our beliefs to reign on our fears goes nowhere good. There is no magic sacrifice we can make that will save us from evil.

    It is unfortunately very predictable that people will start making shitty statements out of fear depending on their priorities, which they might or might not recant in saner moments. We'll be seeing a lot of this in political groups over the next year.

    I mean, Obama pulled off this move in 2008 with gay marriage. It's not unprecedented to keep your actual agenda around minority groups on the downlow.

    But I think it's still a red herring. Even the anti-trans shit the republicans were running, some of which was apparently quite successful in focus-groups, is in many ways a more fundamentally conservative argument just putting on an anti-trans t-shirt.
    "Harris wants to give gender reassignment surgery to illegal immigrant prisoners!"
    "Harris is for they/them, Trump is for YOU!"
    and so on.
    All use the language of anti-trans hatred but are fundamentally more about "Harris will waste money on people who aren't like you, I will help you". It's a populist government-waste fuck-the-system fuck-the-others get-yours message. In a time where everyone is mad and demanding something new.

    The 2008 electorate and the 2024 electorate are not the same and neither are the opponents. John McCain, for all of his many faults, told a racist supporter at one of his town halls to stop calling Obama Muslim because he wasn't. The GOP in 2024 is going to run the anti-trans shit regardless because that's the most vulnerable part of a larger group they hate.

    Playing to the center on this failed and will continue to fail. If Democrats want a new generation of voters to respect them they need to show pride in supporting trans folk and take the same "we did it and it was awesome" attitude conservatives do except in this case it actually would be awesome.

    Obama's opponent had nothing to do with. It was about the coalition he needed to pull together to win. Obama felt like it was beneficial to keep it on the downlow.

  • This content has been removed.

  • useruser Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    user wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    Unless I am really not understanding what all happened at all -- the one person who did 'doxx' someone inasmuch as they called someone out on Reddit for things they posted here *was* banned. Then more recently the mods temp banned one person for suggesting that that was an undeserved ban, and that's it.

    Isn't that it?

    And is has no rub at all on what happened here today as far as I can tell.

    It absolutely does. Because people are openly defending the stalking. And saying the user shouldn't have been punished for it. And then complaining when people got hit for defending stalking other users. You are sticking your head in the sand if you don't see what people are doing.

    Like, you are literally minimizing the stalking right now.

    The singular person who defended the behavior was the one who ate a temp ban, okay? -- that line seems pretty well drawn and established now.

  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    I'm gonna guess you also identify as an apache helicopter?

    No, I’m not actually whatever brand of transphobic gamergater you want to paint me as.

    Somebody just said it’s good that I’m afraid. If indeed I am. And you’re doubling down on it. Cool cool.

    If you are indeed afraid please reach out to a mod with your fears. I don't want this to be a place of bullying.

    Unless you're not actually afraid and just posted that to be a reactionary troll and don't really have a overarching debate goal here.

    You could also just try to be honest instead of whatever you're doing with this intellectual swordfight that is happening in your head.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    I like to ART
  • Kristmas KthulhuKristmas Kthulhu Currently Kultist Kthulhu Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Magell wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Seriously, ELM posted "Trans rights are a losing issue."

    He told a bunch of people that he thinks openly fighting for them is a bad idea, and when he was RIGHTLY told how that was a shitty thing to do, he instead chose to leave the forum rather than even have a modicum of self reflection. He wasn't even banned, just got a warning and some people let him know that opinion wasn't appreciated, and that was too much for him to handle.

    But trans rights are a losing issue. We have run the test. American democracy is anti-trans.

    What you do with that info is not abandon trans people. You fight harder for them. Just not elecotorally. Not democratically. When the democratically elected law of the land becomes "round up the trans for the camps", you do not obey the law. If the choice is democracy or trans lives, you choose trans lives.

    What's your evidence it's a losing issue? Republicans who made that the sole plank of their platform lost this year and in 2022 and 2020, plenty of progressives who actually do support trans rights won, a trans woman got elected to congress, now she's also pro-Israel which is a bummer, but baby steps.

    Those are some really good points. Strong evidence I'm wrong.

    So if I'm wrong, what does it all mean? What do those wins for trans people mean when Donald Trump is elected president? What do those voters think?

    What do these fucking animals even want, goddammit?

    maybe start by not calling them animals for fucks' sake

    child poverty went up under biden

    medicare enrollments went down under biden

    no improvements made to health insurance

    billions of dollars in munitions to israel

    pictures of dead children every day on social media

    what *could* this unknowable electorate possibly want?

    1936_large.png

    So why did they vote for the person that will, without question, make all of those problems worse? Is this the wrong question to ask?

    You're right I shouldn't call them animals. I still don't recognize them as people. My idea of human thought, philosophically and the tools i use to navigate mundane social interactions, do not map to these people. They are obviously people, so I'm wrong somehow, and I'm trying to figure out how I'm wrong.

    turnout was depressed on all sides. the time to be making a case for reelection was not the past 11 months. and despite all the talk about "buying power" or whatever the fuck increasing, biden did not meaningfully make people's lives better.

    we all saw the massive boost to enthusiasm when biden stepped down. people wanted something different, just like they did when biden won in 2020. running towards trump was such an obviously losing play that those whom you should be looking at askance are democratic consultants and politicians who ran the campaign

  • lutefisklutefisk Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    shryke wrote: »
    user wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    Unless I am really not understanding what all happened at all -- the one person who did 'doxx' someone inasmuch as they called someone out on Reddit for things they posted here *was* banned. Then more recently the mods temp banned one person for suggesting that that was an undeserved ban, and that's it.

    Isn't that it?

    And is has no rub at all on what happened here today as far as I can tell.

    It absolutely does. Because people are openly defending the stalking. And saying the user shouldn't have been punished for it. And then complaining when people got hit for defending stalking other users. You are sticking your head in the sand if you don't see what people are doing.

    Like, you are literally minimizing the stalking right now.

    get a hobby

    Hahnsoo1 on
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    I suspect the reality is that a lot of Americans are living in ‘lottery tickets are a rational choice’ conditions, from their perspectives. Marginal progress doesn’t mean shit if you and your kids and your grandkids’ grandkids are still going to be on the margins after decades of incremental gains.

    So why not vote for the wrench that wants to fuck the gears? Or alternately, why bother showing up to keep those gears grinding to no perceived benefit?

    That’s on top of the baseline comfortable racists and misogynists that get you 90% of the way to hell, of course.

    Incrementalism can’t win as a message. People don’t live on that kind of timeline, and they don’t vote based on an algorithm. ‘It’ll get a little better’ will always lose to ‘everybody you like will get a solid gold house and everybody you hate will cry.’

  • MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    user wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    Lots of people are doing self bans and post deletions in light of the forum ending soon. I don’t even think ELM did it because of this interaction specifically, maybe it’s why he chose to do it now.

    But then a lot of people are doing it now in light of the election and getting a break. It was hardly the interaction in this thread that prompted it.

    That said, a bunch of people agree-farming each other about “running a bully out of town” as though ELM was the bad guy from Road House is…I might suggest just a smidge ironic.

    Because the timing of his self-ban and deletion likely isn’t entirely coincidence.

    Edit: Tangential to the thread but not entirely unrelated. You guys have created a space that runs off longtime and generally allied users for being insufficiently sensitive. Then cheerfully calls them bullies on their way out. Good luck courting the next generation of men!

    go fuck yourself. abandoning marginalized folks as a political strategy is what caused this massive loss. anyone looking at how far to the right harris campaigned and then going "we need to stop caring about human rights for this group" is not and never was an ally, because it's always going to keep shifting to "now we need to abandon *this* group, and *this* group, and..."

    that you are incapable of introspection and realizing that you're not "one of the good ones" if you tell people in your own community that their safety has to be given up for your comfort and then are told to pound rocks is nobody's fault but your own

    Your post makes me feel unsafe.

    I don't believe you.

    But if it truly does, maybe that's a good thing. I hope it causes some introspection on why people are so angry with you, and why your comments are so unacceptable.

    Nice.

    Knowing that some of y’all are a bunch of petty doxxing assholes, especially nice.

    It’s a good thing that I feel unsafe. Noted.

    You all are amazing.

    Unless I am really not understanding what all happened at all -- the one person who did 'doxx' someone inasmuch as they called someone out on Reddit for things they posted here *was* banned. Then more recently the mods temp banned one person for suggesting that that was an undeserved ban, and that's it.

    Isn't that it?

    And is has no rub at all on what happened here today as far as I can tell.

    It absolutely does. Because people are openly defending the stalking. And saying the user shouldn't have been punished for it. And then complaining when people got hit for defending stalking other users. You are sticking your head in the sand if you don't see what people are doing.

    Like, you are literally minimizing the stalking right now.

    I'd love to go over this issue with you, but I don't want to eat a temp ban for downplaying harassment, and I think you know that, which is why you're bringing up this subject.

    It's also a good way to avoid the reason that ELM got backlash is because he was being transphobic, not for having differing opinions.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User, Moderator, Administrator admin
    Geth, close the thread

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative Hahnsoo1. Closing thread...

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User, Moderator, Administrator admin
    This thread is on a time out. It’s clear that no one is in a good place right now.

    8i1dt37buh2m.png
This discussion has been closed.