Seems like we've already discussed that mods won't be permanent in the future forums anyways, the idea I think is to have a clean slate to start from. I think a lot of people are happier with some of the newer appointments on the mod team vs some of the "legacy members"
It's Kosh ok like not to be a dick but dancing around it helps no one, I think pretty much everyone who is modded right now (save for fake mod Jeffe) aside from Kosh is pretty cool. Kosh hasn't proven themselves to be able to handle modship, they have said out of pocket things to a lot of people here in the role of mod, and a lot of the resentment lingering are from the Kosh and Jeffe days when it was cool to be a smarmy jerk when executing mod duties. And to be I guess a little fair to them, they didn't set the tone there, those who came before them did, but they are guilty of keeping that tone going for longer than a lot of people are comfy with.
So like, if we renominated Chu I'm down for it, they have been super cool and reasonable. Sterica too. Tons of people have stepped up to be really good role models in the community. Those are the people who are setting the example.
I don't necessarily want a "fresh start" I want to take what we have that's good and build on it without the weird software limitations we have now. I generally think the modding style has been pretty good, with some exceptions here and there as many have pointed out. I don't really see a reason we have to throw them all out when the majority of the problem is a small number of users having an issue with what seems like a single person.
Again. Nobody is saying throw out the baby with the bathwater. Good mods can be mods again. Bad mods won't. Pretty simple to me.
The community having a say in the mods alone will be a big change and one I look forward to
Hard disagree on who are "bad mods". I would say Sterica and BahamutZero are "bad mods". For explicitly stating they will try to shield their special friend group from any mod action. For saying they will refuse to enforce the forum rules wherever they hold sway (and I do not get the impression Sterica is on board with the rules the transition team has handed down). For instigating posters against other posters and mods on off-site discords etc...
ok now who decides who is the "bad" mods and who the "good" ones?
Let's stop calling out specific mods in this specific thread, which is ostensibly about feedback and discussion of the Forum Survey. I know that we've meandered to the topic of moderation, but this is only going to cause folks to jump into here to defend themselves or moderators that they want to champion, and then we end up with thread locks.
This is ending up in a bad direction, and I want to stop it right here so the good discussions do not get derailed.
With all due respect, people have been openly and tangentially shitting on Jeffe and Kosh all day long both as people and as mods and not a word has been said to knock it off until now.
The complaints about Bahamut and Sterica are valid so far that they have directly undermined, publicly, other mods. Seeing criticism in one direction get no response at all but when it’s heading in the other direction it suddenly warrants a bold post admin response does not build confidence
(there's a time lag before mods respond to a thing though)
The Transition Team can attest to the fact that I was grocery shopping all afternoon.
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
+7
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
I think maybe some kind of shortlist selected by the moderation team, with a community vote at the end would work? No stump speeches, just here are the nominees and then straight up and down poll. I feel that would avoid some potential pitfalls around voting turning into a popularity contest / factions forming.
I do feel community involvement is a good idea and needed though. Part of the community issues have come from, at the very least the perception of, bad faith moderation decisions. Community involvement in mod selection is part and parcel of improving transparency and accountability as a way of solving these issues.
And I don't see how you can do that and also just continue with the current moderation staff (and I mean that as no slight on the current mods). A brand new set of moderation principles and selection process to me necessitates a turnover as part of the initial setup of the new forums.
I don't get it. Are you saying community involvement isn't community involvement if it results in nonzero overlap between the names on the list before the new forums and the names on the list after the new forums?
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
Point of order, everything I have proposed actually requires less committees and sub committees than the version that zonugal proposed or the people who would like to see a small council election process of mods.
Also, management system design is complex, especially if you have never been involved with it as a discipline! It actually takes a shitload of thinking planning and design to produce a simple, elegant system
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
Point of order, everything I have proposed actually requires less committees and sub committees than the version that zonugal proposed or the people who would like to see a small council election process of mods.
Also, management system design is complex, especially if you have never been involved with it as a discipline! It actually takes a shitload of thinking planning and design to produce a simple, elegant system
Frankly no management system will be perfect, the best ones though can adjust as necessary to changing conditions.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
+8
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
i do worry that the sloth of getting new moderators in the past cultivated bad thought processes in some moderators of "i GOTTA stick around, i gotta keep slogging through it or no one will", but also like, you know. i'm not the psychologist i can't just tell if someone is actually in that place. i just know that it's a risk that gets caused by some of the past decisions
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
Point of order, everything I have proposed actually requires less committees and sub committees than the version that zonugal proposed or the people who would like to see a small council election process of mods.
Also, management system design is complex, especially if you have never been involved with it as a discipline! It actually takes a shitload of thinking planning and design to produce a simple, elegant system
Frankly no management system will be perfect, the best ones though can adjust as necessary to changing conditions.
In fact, best practice dictates a management system has the capacity to learn from experience, seek collaboration and co-design from stakeholders!
You will often here practitioners talk about plan (self explanatory), do (execute the activities per the system design), check (review how well the activities performed against intent), act (factor the findings from the checking into the next planning phase). That or monitor, measure, review which is basically the same thing
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
What if you suck at it though
It’s why I’m not a mod and would have zero desire to be one
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
I get this, but isn't that the point of having these discussions now? These are some foundational points for the new forums, we need to hash out the different options and yeah, a complete turnover of mods is one of those options
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
What if you suck at it though
It’s why I’m not a mod and would have zero desire to be one
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
A rec sports league doesn't have that because it's either run by the local government or run by a private nonprofit that is effectively the same as what were doing.
Nope. There's plenty of other structures to run one.
MrMr really covers this more thoroughly at the top of page 20.
The thing about simple tasks is they don't need and usually suffer from overly complex systems. The usual way you run shit like this is to just empower people to make the call and just do the damn job.
The post didn't actually demonstrate that. There will be a corporation and that corporation will have to have a board of directors that does things in the best interest of the community. If you don't believe that's a thing that will happen then you don't have a lot of experience with contracts.
We're not talking about that though? We're talking about all the other shit people are dreaming up around that.
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
A rec sports league doesn't have that because it's either run by the local government or run by a private nonprofit that is effectively the same as what were doing.
Nope. There's plenty of other structures to run one.
MrMr really covers this more thoroughly at the top of page 20.
The thing about simple tasks is they don't need and usually suffer from overly complex systems. The usual way you run shit like this is to just empower people to make the call and just do the damn job.
The post didn't actually demonstrate that. There will be a corporation and that corporation will have to have a board of directors that does things in the best interest of the community. If you don't believe that's a thing that will happen then you don't have a lot of experience with contracts.
We're not talking about that though? We're talking about all the other shit people are dreaming up around that.
You explicitly have stated that people are "overengineering the problem", likening it to "nation building". I'm saying it's not that far off because a corporation is being formed.
Also, nobody is saying they can't be mods, just that they will have to go through the new process of becoming a mod, instead of the current process process that exists, in some form, as an extension of our current hosts who are in the process of extricating their already limited connections from our community.
Now the fact that they got blindsided with this information is pretty naff, so I hope that alerts the transition team and current moderation team to powwow about that.
EDIT: Sounds like Zonagul spoke out of turn it hasn't been decided.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
So long and thanks for lol the fish?
Sure. And I’d still expect to get that notice now.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
So long and thanks for lol the fish?
Sure. And I’d still expect to get that notice now.
I don't disagree that there should be communication and decision about that as soon as possible. And Syndalis has indicated a decision hasn't been made, that Zonugal was stating his view on the topic.
0
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
i don't think it's an unreasonable ask to make it clear sticking it out either does or does not include the position carrying forward
some people may be okay seeing this through and then passing the torch
some may not feel it's worth it to continue on right now if they're not going to be able to continue on in the new place
it's only right to clarify the terms of the transition sooner rather than later
Allegedly a voice of reason.
+7
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
Also, nobody is saying they can't be mods, just that they will have to go through the new process of becoming a mod, instead of the current process process that exists, in some form, as an extension of our current hosts who are in the process of extricating their already limited connections from our community.
Now the fact that they got blindsided with this information is pretty naff, so I hope that alerts the transition team and current moderation team to powwow about that.
I kinda think multiple people have said that? It's very frustrating to hear nobody is saying that they can't be mods when I can just scroll up and quote it.
+6
Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
I struggle with the notion that a volunteer moderator in this community would have any expectations of return for their effort. They're volunteers, after all. Ideally someone takes the role because they value the community and want it to succeed.
Hahnsoo is a great example of someone doing exactly that. Echo took a duty with no expectation that they'll get preferential treatment down the line and doesn't intend to stay in that role once their effort isn't required. The idea that someone in this community would be compensated with future preferential treatment because they inhabited a role for a certain amount of time feels extractive to me.
I reject the framing that electing mods, who then get broad latitude in interpreting and enforcing the rules, is the same thing as
-"endless campaigning for reelection"
-"mass anarchy"
-"strangling our ability to get anything done"
If you're going to oppose the idea you could try to not sound like a minor villain in an american revolution period piece
You shouldn't try to sound like you are founding a nation when you are spinning up a forum.
Why not?
Because it's massively overengineering the system while throwing around some truly overwrought rhetoric. This is not a complicated endeavor upon which people's fundamental freedoms and rights depend. Too much bullshit will only get in the way of what is, in the end, not that complicated a problem. Clubs and teams and organizations do this kind of thing all the time without all this shit.
It's not overengineering though? We are literally a community of a couple hundred to a few thousand members. Hammering out systems and processes is one of the steps we have to take in order to make this community function in a sustainable transparent manner. Clubs and organizations also do these kinds of things. Maybe they start of with something simpler when starting with a smaller population, but once they grow they start contemplating and adding these things. It's just the nature of organizing a large group of people.
It's massively over engineering. Even groups with this number of members (most of whom are going to be mostly passive) run off way less structure then is being thrown around. They frequently run off a few positions that are not subject to elections or huge levels of oversight. You've got a board at the top and you start throwing out necessary positions to various volunteers on basically a "everyone on the board is ok with this person and they've actually said they would do it" basis. And you are off to the races. And this forum is, quite frankly, doing WAY WAY less then any of those kind of groups.
The pivotal difference is, most other organisations have a service or product they are providing external to the organisation itself. From sports clubs, to animal shelters, even things like political/advocacy groups. Our product is our community. The service we provide is sustaining and engaging the members itself. There is no external focus at all. This eliminates any real need to circumvent an engagement or collaboration process purely from the point of view of expedience. We are quite remarkable that the ONLY objective of this place is the sustainability of the group itself.
Also I have done plenty of work in political orgs to tell you that the stuff we are noodling through is like, half the stuff some of them set up lol
This is a bizarre way to describe the kind of groups I'm talking about. That are also about providing a community. Often around an activity. But sometimes just around being a community.
I assure you it is not.
A sports team has teams that need training, they have fixtures that need organising, match days to organise, matches to win. They are timebound external focuses for them that we do not have.
Rotary club, lions foundations, charity groups. These groups all have external groups that they provide clean up days to, provide food for, raise funds for. These are all timebound and external to group itself.
All of these things introduce a valid argument for having a manner of expediency in their operation that we just don’t really have. Ours is probably restricted to ensuring that feedback is circulated within a community in a timely manner, our elections happen on time, and that our BoD meet their statutory timeframes for annual meetings.
Also on a personal note, can you work on phrasing stuff away from “this is bizarre” to be more like, “I don’t quite understand” or “I disagree with”. Like, I am trying my best to be objective, neutral and approachable and I’d appreciate if you could meet me halfway
The way those groups are structured is not the result of a need for expediency. It's because of a lack of need for more complex systems. People got shit to do with their time. People do not, as a rule, want to sit around in meetings when they are being paid to do so. Let alone when they aren't.
A rec sports league doesn't lack multiple standing committees because they just need to move too fast for that kind of thing. They lack those structures because they aren't needed and no one is going to go and try and create them for no benefit to anyone. And if you did, people would wonder what you were doing.
A rec sports league doesn't have that because it's either run by the local government or run by a private nonprofit that is effectively the same as what were doing.
Nope. There's plenty of other structures to run one.
MrMr really covers this more thoroughly at the top of page 20.
The thing about simple tasks is they don't need and usually suffer from overly complex systems. The usual way you run shit like this is to just empower people to make the call and just do the damn job.
The post didn't actually demonstrate that. There will be a corporation and that corporation will have to have a board of directors that does things in the best interest of the community. If you don't believe that's a thing that will happen then you don't have a lot of experience with contracts.
We're not talking about that though? We're talking about all the other shit people are dreaming up around that.
You explicitly have stated that people are "overengineering the problem", likening it to "nation building". I'm saying it's not that far off because a corporation is being formed.
Yes but the overengineering in question is not "having a board making decisions".
Like, I'm honestly confused what you are even arguing against? What you described in that post is literally what I described towards the top of this reply chain.
0
Powerpuppiesdrinking coffee in themountain cabinRegistered Userregular
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
Did I miss an announcement or something? I am really surprised to hear that a particular group of 5 people are sort of the final arbiters of everything now. I'd expect a sticky or something if the situation is "The moderators appointed the transition team and the transition team will be trusted to make all decisions, if you don't trust them just bail now." Maybe there is one though! I miss stuff all the time. I'd just like some clarity on the situation.
Also, nobody is saying they can't be mods, just that they will have to go through the new process of becoming a mod, instead of the current process process that exists, in some form, as an extension of our current hosts who are in the process of extricating their already limited connections from our community.
Now the fact that they got blindsided with this information is pretty naff, so I hope that alerts the transition team and current moderation team to powwow about that.
I kinda think multiple people have said that? It's very frustrating to hear nobody is saying that they can't be mods when I can just scroll up and quote it.
Everyone here is expressing an opinion as no decisions have actually been made by anyone with the authority to make them. So you may see contradictory things from different people.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
I struggle with the notion that a volunteer moderator in this community would have any expectations of return for their effort. They're volunteers, after all. Ideally someone takes the role because they value the community and want it to succeed.
Hahnsoo is a great example of someone doing exactly that. Echo took a duty with no expectation that they'll get preferential treatment down the line and doesn't intend to stay in that role once their effort isn't required. The idea that someone in this community would be compensated with future preferential treatment because they inhabited a role for a certain amount of time feels extractive to me.
Of course they should expect return for their efforts. Some thanks. Some common courtesy. A heads up as to what the plan is and not just dropped on them as "you're fired". People who volunteer to do these kind of jobs, in all walks of life, are a big part of what keeps a lot of the best things going.
Hey guys, can people please stop name dropping me, either to attack me or defend me? I'm not going to be mod, I'm not a mod now, and I would rather not be employed as an avatar of everything right/wrong with moderation.
I'm expressing opinions as a regular user who has been around so long that my mod tenure and forumer tenure could go out for drinks, but I'm not a part of the transition team or the mod team and don't pretend to have any special authority. I want to contribute because I love this place and want it to be the best it can be, and I would like people to engage with my ideas as I present them and not as a front in the Forever War.
You are all my family. Even the ones of you I don't always get along with.
Thank you.
Would you say I had a plethora of pinatas?
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
So, I have, not necessarily DIRECT experience with an IDENTICAL situation to this, but I do have an experience that gives me thoughts.
So I was approached by Bahamutzero on behalf of themselves and Whippy to be a new SE++ mod. I thought about it for a bit and then said sure I would be willing to help with some of that on that subforum. You may notice that I am not a SE++ mod, and that someone else was appointed. I did not know what was going on. It was not clear to me that B0 knew what was going on. It was not clear to me how this interacted with the transition team. I was uncertain about a lot of things, is what I was getting at, and there was a certain degree of stress that accompanied that. Honestly, I wasn't going to talk about this because of all that behind the scenes uncertainty, I didn't want to give any wrong impressions about CHAOS IN THE BACK or something, and even as I write this I'm not really sure it's the right move to publicize that it happened because some people could interpret it in ways that I am not trying to make it be interpreted.
My opinions on this is that if I was going to be mad about how this went down, that I was going to choose not to participate in the forum as a result, I should never have been approached by them in the first place. I can be annoyed, and I've certainly used the forums a little less over the last week just to sort of shake off the weirdness of going through that process, but any degree of anger, any degree of going off in a huff, means I would not have had the disposition for the position. If someone has transitioned into a state where that is the disposition they possess, they should not have the position anymore. On an existential level, to have a healthy forum ecosystem, that is just what is needed from the volunteer position.
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
Did I miss an announcement or something? I am really surprised to hear that a particular group of 5 people are sort of the final arbiters of everything now. I'd expect a sticky or something if the situation is "The moderators appointed the transition team and the transition team will be trusted to make all decisions, if you don't trust them just bail now." Maybe there is one though! I miss stuff all the time. I'd just like some clarity on the situation.
I feel like this seriously sells short a lot of great, frank, conversations that have happened over the past days and weeks in this subforum.
Like this place is filled with posts and conversations, from people all over the forum sub-communities, that contradict the notion that the new forums are shaping up to be a 'if you don't like it then hit the bricks' kind of place
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
So long and thanks for lol the fish?
Sure. And I’d still expect to get that notice now.
I don't disagree that there should be communication and decision about that as soon as possible. And Syndalis has indicated a decision hasn't been made, that Zonugal was stating his view on the topic.
If decisions haven't been made, they shouldn't be communicated like they have.
+4
minor incidentpublicly subsidized!privately profitable!Registered User, Transition Teamregular
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
Did I miss an announcement or something? I am really surprised to hear that a particular group of 5 people are sort of the final arbiters of everything now. I'd expect a sticky or something if the situation is "The moderators appointed the transition team and the transition team will be trusted to make all decisions, if you don't trust them just bail now." Maybe there is one though! I miss stuff all the time. I'd just like some clarity on the situation.
Not in those exact words, but it was first disclosed here (after the culmination of… god, a collective few hundred hours of work and discussion to that point between us all and some of the moderation team?):
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
I struggle with the notion that a volunteer moderator in this community would have any expectations of return for their effort. They're volunteers, after all. Ideally someone takes the role because they value the community and want it to succeed.
Hahnsoo is a great example of someone doing exactly that. Echo took a duty with no expectation that they'll get preferential treatment down the line and doesn't intend to stay in that role once their effort isn't required. The idea that someone in this community would be compensated with future preferential treatment because they inhabited a role for a certain amount of time feels extractive to me.
Of course they should expect return for their efforts. Some thanks. Some common courtesy. A heads up as to what the plan is and not just dropped on them as "you're fired". People who volunteer to do these kind of jobs, in all walks of life, are a big part of what keeps a lot of the best things going.
Courtesy is not the same as a future guarantee to continue in the same role, though.
If a moderator is consistently finding that their community is discourteous to them, perhaps they should examine their own behavior.
You'll notice that the new community rules have clear language regarding the manner in which moderation decisions are communicated. That is, they are no longer to be a place for editorializing or snark by the moderator. That's a change from present, and it's unfortunately quite necessary. If you didn't consider that a problem, well that is fortunate for you. But it would be good to listen to the other people in your community who did have a problem with it.
also, on an abstract level - as abstract as we can get when we're talking about a small group of people - if someone is offended by the idea that they might not be a mod on the new forums i don't think that's a good thing! like not talking about like, failures of communication. like there was a weird moment between zonugal and organichu earlier where organichu was like "uh this is the first i'm hearing about this" - THAT'S bad. that's one of the things that's going to happen when this is a big messy thing but that kind of communication should strive to be avoided. but like, pride shouldn't enter into it. the response to "we found someone else to do your thankless volunteer job" shouldn't be "how dare you" but "oh thank christ". personally i think that being overworked is a huge reason for some of the problems people have had with mods over the years. we're all human. we can't do our job effectively when overworked. like even if you feel that every moderation action made has been correct, overwork is going to affect one's ability to clearly communicate why that is. so like at a minimum i would assume more mods if not new
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
Did I miss an announcement or something? I am really surprised to hear that a particular group of 5 people are sort of the final arbiters of everything now. I'd expect a sticky or something if the situation is "The moderators appointed the transition team and the transition team will be trusted to make all decisions, if you don't trust them just bail now." Maybe there is one though! I miss stuff all the time. I'd just like some clarity on the situation.
The transition team consists of the most active members of the Future State Planning Center who have collectively decided to collaborate to try to make this transition a reality. The membership is not closed, and once some plates are spinning, the plan is to keep expanding the Transition Team as more responsibilities pop up, both on the technical side and the policy/cultural side. It's not just 5 people, either... the 5 people on the document are just the folks who helped draft that document. Additional folks like Mazzyx, Spool32, Inquisitor77, and Space Pickle have been contributing to other aspects like the Survey that lots of folks took or figuring out the legal/financial stuff that we need to successfully do this.
I've seen very little evidence that the decisions they are making are only their own, and they have been actively courting and digesting feedback throughout this entire process.
Transparently if I were a mod now, and was not going to be a mod going forward (other than by my own choice) then I shouldn’t be a mod now. And I’d want to know that now, not after eating another six months of abuse.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
So, I have, not necessarily DIRECT experience with an IDENTICAL situation to this, but I do have an experience that gives me thoughts.
So I was approached by Bahamutzero on behalf of themselves and Whippy to be a new SE++ mod. I thought about it for a bit and then said sure I would be willing to help with some of that on that subforum. You may notice that I am not a SE++ mod, and that someone else was appointed. I did not know what was going on. It was not clear to me that B0 knew what was going on. It was not clear to me how this interacted with the transition team. I was uncertain about a lot of things, is what I was getting at, and there was a certain degree of stress that accompanied that. Honestly, I wasn't going to talk about this because of all that behind the scenes uncertainty, I didn't want to give any wrong impressions about CHAOS IN THE BACK or something, and even as I write this I'm not really sure it's the right move to publicize that it happened because some people could interpret it in ways that I am not trying to make it be interpreted.
My opinions on this is that if I was going to be mad about how this went down, that I was going to choose not to participate in the forum as a result, I should never have been approached by them in the first place. I can be annoyed, and I've certainly used the forums a little less over the last week just to sort of shake off the weirdness of going through that process, but any degree of anger, any degree of going off in a huff, means I would not have had the disposition for the position. If someone has transitioned into a state where that is the disposition they possess, they should not have the position anymore. On an existential level, to have a healthy forum ecosystem, that is just what is needed from the volunteer position.
this undersells how much harassment chu has been getting since (and for) infracting lanz
Hey guys, can people please stop name dropping me, either to attack me or defend me? I'm not going to be mod, I'm not a mod now, and I would rather not be employed as an avatar of everything right/wrong with moderation.
I'm expressing opinions as a regular user who has been around so long that my mod tenure and forumer tenure could go out for drinks, but I'm not a part of the transition team or the mod team and don't pretend to have any special authority. I want to contribute because I love this place and want it to be the best it can be, and I would like people to engage with my ideas as I present them and not as a front in the Forever War.
You are all my family. Even the ones of you I don't always get along with.
Thank you.
As your family, I'd ask just stay out of the transition threads so you don't accidentally post in a locked one again or something along those lines. Or maybe see about getting your mod powers taken off since apparently it won't break anything, and then rejoin the discussion. Maybe spearhead a mod and former mod only discord or something fun.
I think then people would be able to move on in peace and serenity
Posts
I don't get it. Are you saying community involvement isn't community involvement if it results in nonzero overlap between the names on the list before the new forums and the names on the list after the new forums?
Or it just won't work
Zonugal blind siding Chu was exactly what I was talking about above. Not pride. Not that they wont be a mod anymore. Just that someone who is very very highly affiliated with one side of the "forum schism" seemed to drop that on him out of the blue. And on what fucking authority?
Try to allow some grace to the people attempting to make this transition work.
okay yes this is what i was talking about
we cannot have this conversation if you do not fundamentally trust the transition team to handle this
the moderators appointed the transition team. the moderators trusted the transition team and do not view them as perpetuating a forum schism.
you are experiencing the breach of trust that other users are saying they have with other mods
Also, management system design is complex, especially if you have never been involved with it as a discipline! It actually takes a shitload of thinking planning and design to produce a simple, elegant system
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Frankly no management system will be perfect, the best ones though can adjust as necessary to changing conditions.
Any mod who doesn't want to be a mod can stop being a mod simply by requesting their privileges be removed. If someone is really enduring so much stress that it's not worth it, then stepping down is always an option and is probably healthier for them to do so. We even have a very recent example of someone realizing the task was taking too much from them and stepping down.
And the counterpoint is if I’m a mod now and I put six months of active work in to keep this community going I would expect to remain a mod in the new community.
What if you suck at it though
In fact, best practice dictates a management system has the capacity to learn from experience, seek collaboration and co-design from stakeholders!
You will often here practitioners talk about plan (self explanatory), do (execute the activities per the system design), check (review how well the activities performed against intent), act (factor the findings from the checking into the next planning phase). That or monitor, measure, review which is basically the same thing
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
It’s why I’m not a mod and would have zero desire to be one
Why should a volunteer be owed anything but thanks? That's kind of the point of volunteering.
I get this, but isn't that the point of having these discussions now? These are some foundational points for the new forums, we need to hash out the different options and yeah, a complete turnover of mods is one of those options
Yes but if you were, why should you remain one
We're not talking about that though? We're talking about all the other shit people are dreaming up around that.
You explicitly have stated that people are "overengineering the problem", likening it to "nation building". I'm saying it's not that far off because a corporation is being formed.
Now the fact that they got blindsided with this information is pretty naff, so I hope that alerts the transition team and current moderation team to powwow about that.
EDIT: Sounds like Zonagul spoke out of turn it hasn't been decided.
So long and thanks for lol the fish?
Sure. And I’d still expect to get that notice now.
I don't disagree that there should be communication and decision about that as soon as possible. And Syndalis has indicated a decision hasn't been made, that Zonugal was stating his view on the topic.
i don't think it's an unreasonable ask to make it clear sticking it out either does or does not include the position carrying forward
some people may be okay seeing this through and then passing the torch
some may not feel it's worth it to continue on right now if they're not going to be able to continue on in the new place
it's only right to clarify the terms of the transition sooner rather than later
I kinda think multiple people have said that? It's very frustrating to hear nobody is saying that they can't be mods when I can just scroll up and quote it.
I struggle with the notion that a volunteer moderator in this community would have any expectations of return for their effort. They're volunteers, after all. Ideally someone takes the role because they value the community and want it to succeed.
Hahnsoo is a great example of someone doing exactly that. Echo took a duty with no expectation that they'll get preferential treatment down the line and doesn't intend to stay in that role once their effort isn't required. The idea that someone in this community would be compensated with future preferential treatment because they inhabited a role for a certain amount of time feels extractive to me.
Yes but the overengineering in question is not "having a board making decisions".
Like, I'm honestly confused what you are even arguing against? What you described in that post is literally what I described towards the top of this reply chain.
Did I miss an announcement or something? I am really surprised to hear that a particular group of 5 people are sort of the final arbiters of everything now. I'd expect a sticky or something if the situation is "The moderators appointed the transition team and the transition team will be trusted to make all decisions, if you don't trust them just bail now." Maybe there is one though! I miss stuff all the time. I'd just like some clarity on the situation.
Everyone here is expressing an opinion as no decisions have actually been made by anyone with the authority to make them. So you may see contradictory things from different people.
Of course they should expect return for their efforts. Some thanks. Some common courtesy. A heads up as to what the plan is and not just dropped on them as "you're fired". People who volunteer to do these kind of jobs, in all walks of life, are a big part of what keeps a lot of the best things going.
I'm expressing opinions as a regular user who has been around so long that my mod tenure and forumer tenure could go out for drinks, but I'm not a part of the transition team or the mod team and don't pretend to have any special authority. I want to contribute because I love this place and want it to be the best it can be, and I would like people to engage with my ideas as I present them and not as a front in the Forever War.
You are all my family. Even the ones of you I don't always get along with.
Thank you.
Legos are cool, MOCs are cool, check me out on Rebrickable!
So, I have, not necessarily DIRECT experience with an IDENTICAL situation to this, but I do have an experience that gives me thoughts.
So I was approached by Bahamutzero on behalf of themselves and Whippy to be a new SE++ mod. I thought about it for a bit and then said sure I would be willing to help with some of that on that subforum. You may notice that I am not a SE++ mod, and that someone else was appointed. I did not know what was going on. It was not clear to me that B0 knew what was going on. It was not clear to me how this interacted with the transition team. I was uncertain about a lot of things, is what I was getting at, and there was a certain degree of stress that accompanied that. Honestly, I wasn't going to talk about this because of all that behind the scenes uncertainty, I didn't want to give any wrong impressions about CHAOS IN THE BACK or something, and even as I write this I'm not really sure it's the right move to publicize that it happened because some people could interpret it in ways that I am not trying to make it be interpreted.
My opinions on this is that if I was going to be mad about how this went down, that I was going to choose not to participate in the forum as a result, I should never have been approached by them in the first place. I can be annoyed, and I've certainly used the forums a little less over the last week just to sort of shake off the weirdness of going through that process, but any degree of anger, any degree of going off in a huff, means I would not have had the disposition for the position. If someone has transitioned into a state where that is the disposition they possess, they should not have the position anymore. On an existential level, to have a healthy forum ecosystem, that is just what is needed from the volunteer position.
I feel like this seriously sells short a lot of great, frank, conversations that have happened over the past days and weeks in this subforum.
Like this place is filled with posts and conversations, from people all over the forum sub-communities, that contradict the notion that the new forums are shaping up to be a 'if you don't like it then hit the bricks' kind of place
If decisions haven't been made, they shouldn't be communicated like they have.
Not in those exact words, but it was first disclosed here (after the culmination of… god, a collective few hundred hours of work and discussion to that point between us all and some of the moderation team?):
https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/252713/forum-survey-results-state-of-the-forums
Courtesy is not the same as a future guarantee to continue in the same role, though.
If a moderator is consistently finding that their community is discourteous to them, perhaps they should examine their own behavior.
You'll notice that the new community rules have clear language regarding the manner in which moderation decisions are communicated. That is, they are no longer to be a place for editorializing or snark by the moderator. That's a change from present, and it's unfortunately quite necessary. If you didn't consider that a problem, well that is fortunate for you. But it would be good to listen to the other people in your community who did have a problem with it.
I've seen very little evidence that the decisions they are making are only their own, and they have been actively courting and digesting feedback throughout this entire process.
this undersells how much harassment chu has been getting since (and for) infracting lanz
As your family, I'd ask just stay out of the transition threads so you don't accidentally post in a locked one again or something along those lines. Or maybe see about getting your mod powers taken off since apparently it won't break anything, and then rejoin the discussion. Maybe spearhead a mod and former mod only discord or something fun.
I think then people would be able to move on in peace and serenity