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SiCKO. Uh, spoilers?
Loren Michael
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, I just saw SiCKO, the new Michael Moore comedy/documentary.
I have kind of an antipathy towards the guy, as I feel he's contributed to a disintegration in coherent, intelligent dialog (conspiracy-mongering in F9/11), and, if his unreleased documentary that I saw last year ("The Great Slacker Uprising of 2004") is any indicator, a total egomaniac.
I really liked SiCKO. It avoided, for the most part, some of the more cringe-inducing things that he has a tendency to stoop to, and focused on collecting an excellent series of entirely understandable anecdotes.
My one issue is that Moore always seems to need a kind of gimmick, and his Cuba trip at the end kind of turned me off, but I understood the message, and I don't think it takes away too much from the central thesis of, "holy shit, our health care sucks."
The biggest thing I liked about it was that the central message was directed at people who actually are protected by health insurance in America. I was not expecting that.
I really think everyone (in America) should see this movie, and probably people in other places should as well, just to see how good I suspect you have it in comparison.
I may simply be in a state of post-movie optimism, but I have to say, I'm not a Moore fan, but I'm a fan of this movie and its message.
Debate and discuss, preliminary thoughts, etcetera. Movie releases wide June 29 in America.
I have kind of an antipathy towards the guy, as I feel he's contributed to a disintegration in coherent, intelligent dialog (conspiracy-mongering in F9/11), and, if his unreleased documentary that I saw last year ("The Great Slacker Uprising of 2004") is any indicator, a total egomaniac.
I really liked SiCKO. It avoided, for the most part, some of the more cringe-inducing things that he has a tendency to stoop to, and focused on collecting an excellent series of entirely understandable anecdotes.
My one issue is that Moore always seems to need a kind of gimmick, and his Cuba trip at the end kind of turned me off, but I understood the message, and I don't think it takes away too much from the central thesis of, "holy shit, our health care sucks."
The biggest thing I liked about it was that the central message was directed at people who actually are protected by health insurance in America. I was not expecting that.
I really think everyone (in America) should see this movie, and probably people in other places should as well, just to see how good I suspect you have it in comparison.
I may simply be in a state of post-movie optimism, but I have to say, I'm not a Moore fan, but I'm a fan of this movie and its message.
Debate and discuss, preliminary thoughts, etcetera. Movie releases wide June 29 in America.
Loren Michael on
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Just as an FYI: http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm
Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244
EDIT: I just saw the TV ad for Sicko. Heh, about 40% of the 30 second spot had Michael Moore in it.
Oh, and did Micheal Moore talk about the Bayh-Dole Act and how it desperately needs to be refined in Sicko?
You're... linking to a site written by a solo Floridian who refers to himself as 'we' and is sponsored by a restaurant, an real estate agent, and a cafepress outlet? That's one step up from linking Geocities. Now maybe what the guy has written is accurate, maybe not, but if you can't find it anywhere more reputable saying the same thing, I think you need to question whether that was even worth posting.
God, everything needs a scientific journal with you guys. Many people who live in Florida have family in Cuba or were from Cuba themselves. For example, Mario and Lincoln Diaz-Balart, the brother congressmen from Florida. This whole "if there isn't a Newsweek story about it, then I'm not listening" bullshit is getting old. The question YOU should be asking yourself is what would a Florida restaurant owner have to gain from spreading negative information about Cuba, in which case the answer would probably be, "He is from Cuba or has family in Cuba."
Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
mmmm, delicious anti-intellectualism. What have you got against journals? If someone makes a claim about magnet-powered hovercars and links a homepage, I'm going to want some journal sources for that too. This is no longer the age where some random bank teller can come up with a world-changing idea. Even more so for non-scientific pursuits.
Anyway I call bollocks, and this is coming from someone who frequently links blogs. Thing is, most blog posts have a decent crack at sourcing their commentary from good sources, and this guy appears to be...well, not. Read through the rest of the site. This isn't a guy with a strong grip on reality. Sometimes attacking the source is a fallacy, but there are times when its eminently appropriate. I think perhaps this is one of them.
No, we just require a site that doesn't look put together by a ten year old. Hell, I think the website would have been more reputable had it actually been in fucking marker or watercolor. No, you know what is getting old-people who don't bother to go in-depth and instead of actually looking into the matter decide to post some nonsensical website that does nothing but question the authenticity of your statement, but also lends credence to the fact that you're an idiot.
Anywho, on to the movie. I thought it was an amazing piece of work minus the "gimmick" you stated. I really did dislike that part to. The other portion of the film whilst in Cuba was quite fascinating though. I really do recommend it, and this is coming from someone who loathes Moore and his need to tug at heart-strings more than having a central message.
National healthcare =/= socialized healthcare. We shouldn't model Cuba, for reasons completely unrelated to the quality of its system (or lack thereof), but that shouldn't stop us from implementing a non-socialized national healthcare system.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Most certainly. I don't necessarily think health care in America should be socialized, but it should be modeled after a system that takes into account your means, and it most certainly shouldn't be handled by swindlers who will do everything in their power to make sure you don't get that surgery you need or that medication you need.
From Wikipedia, since it's also easily accessible, although somehow overlooked by your trained eye:
"An article in Canadian newspaper National Post, based interviews of Cubans, finds that in reality even the most common pharmaceutical items, such as Aspirin and antibiotics are conspicuously absent or only available on the black market. Surgeons lack basic supplies and must re-use latex gloves. Patients must buy their own sutures on the black market and provide bedsheets and food for extended hospital stays. The Cuban government blames the shortages on the embargo and states that those with more severe chronic diseases receive medicines. However, other sources suggest that also those with such diseases lack medicines. It is also suggested that in some cases the local non-dollar stocks have been shipped abroad."
"An article in The Boston Globe, partially based on interviews with Cubans, argues that the massive export of doctors and other medical personal to Venezuela in exchange for oil has caused shortages in Cuba. Regarding Operación Milagro, "It's all the Venezuelans who need cataracts surgery first, and then the Cubans if there's any time left," said Georgina, 60, a retired Havana clerk."
"Complaints have arisen that foreign "health tourists" paying with dollars and senior Communist party officials receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens. Former leading Cuban neurosurgeon and dissident Dr Hilda Molina asserts that the central revolutionary objective of free, quality medical care for all has been eroded by Cuba's need for foreign currency. Molina says that following the economic collapse known in Cuba as the Special Period, the Cuban Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a profit-making enterprise. This creates an enormous disparity in the quality of healthcare services between foreigners and Cubans leading to a form of tourist apartheid."
If you want to turn a blind eye to something because you're not willing to hear the truth, then that's your own issue. My opinions have been made from the Cubans I've personally talked to, including Congressman Mario Diaz-Balart, whose family had much power under Fidel Castro until they moved to America because of political corruption, injustice, etc.
Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
All the health plans I've seen have been focused on lowering the cost of private health insurance and providing a subsidized basic government plan than implimenting some kind of single payer socialist ideal.
I'm not commenting on the entirety of the documentary, just the part where he takes people to Cuba because their healthcare is soooo great in comparison to our own, which is a load of shit.
Wii Code: 1040-1320-0724-3613 :!!:
Fantastic. Thank you for providing a source with some reputability. That's all I was asking for, and you'd have realised that if you'd actually read my original post rather than the imaginary version that exists in your head. Reality-based thinking is so much more effective, you see. If only Disrupter was as clear-headed as you.
He'd have been better off heading here or to Canada.
Or France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, or, well, just about anywhere in the first world.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well, we all know Moore couldn't resist a trope like 'third world kicks first's ass'. Thing is, Cuba only manages that with food production, and only just.
Sure.
They do have pretty good life expectancy though. I think a year less than us.
I checked out the life expectancies of other countries with around the same GDP per capita (Cuba=$4000) in the same neighborhood.
Cuba = 77
Guatemala = 69
Belize = 68
El Salvador = 72
Venezuela = 73
Jamaica = 73
So they are obviously doing something better with the available resources than their neighbors.
It was still a weird place for michael moore to go.
Well, it's not very far.
You make a strong case.
With the presidential elections continuing to gain steam, my hope is this dialogue will force candidates to address the health care issues far more elaborately rather than a repeat of 2004 which was almost entirely Iraq and moral issues.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Yeah. The last election year film really promoted a serious, honest dialogue about the War on Terror. I don't see how this one can fail.
I can feel your sarcasm.
But this topic needs more exposure, honest or not, unlike terrorism, which has been getting headlines daily for almost 6 years.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
It made for a kind of WTF this is dumb moment at the end of an otherwise, so far as I can tell, strong movie.
Is the example, Cuba, the dumb moment or the fact that it invites the notion of all-out socialism?
I'm quite on board with socialized medicine. And socialism in general. Of course, I'm aware that's a taboo stance in most circles of US politics.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Using Cuba at the end was dumb, and took away from what was otherwise very open-ended. It could have been spun a slightly different way and it would have been a little better, but as it was, it just raised my suspicions and bent the movie in a direction that was far more socialist than necessary.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Are there any laws stopping HMOs from testing DNA so they can deny people coverage? I seem to remember reading something along those lines. It'll be become really fucked if it ever happens.
I think he spent a bit too much of the documentary focusing on other countries, would have like to see more of it take place in America, but it did make a point...the US has a system that punishes people for getting well and the poorer you are, the worse off your situation will be.
Secret Satan
An unbiased example of how the American system is completely fucked.
It seems like the problem with creating a US national healthcare system is population. Sure, every other first world country has it, but how many other first world countries have 300 million people? None. Canada's national population is less than the metro areas of NYC and LA combined.
I don't know, it seems like healthcare in the US should be controlled by the states. Each state can make its own if it wants. In fact, don't some already do this? What are the negatives to that system? Our nation allows mostly effortless migration between states, which means people could move to a healthcare state, and the states that lose residents will implement their own to bring them back. That way each state runs a small portion of the population's healthcare, instead of having one big national system that tries to help everybody but ultimately fails because it's stretched too thin.
I'm not all that educated on world healthcare systems, so feel free to pick apart my post and throw me some info.
XBL: QuazarX
It does appear that he's becoming a more likable person, if not a slimmer person.
Then again, I live in a country with fairly good healthcare. From the little I know from house and ER (please don't shoot me) if you rock up to hospital, the only thing they are interested in to begin with is your insurance, and if you can't afford it, please die quietly out the back.
I'm under the impression (but I can't quote any sources for it) that Cuba has a vaguely interesting relationship with selective pregnancy termination procedures. That would heavily bump up their life expectancy stats.
Cuba's a weird choice of comparison because the things that really work in their system have very little to do with socialised medicine, and are public health initiatives that pretty much every first world health system could do with paying more attention to. But I'm guessing Loren doesn't want this to become a Soy Cuba thread.
I did not know the US had such issues with its own system.
Also I dug up some random info from the intertron:
Doctors' incomes: (2)
United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768
Life Expectancy (years):
Men Women
Japan 76.2 --- 82.5
France 72.9 --- 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 --- 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 --- 80.5
Sweden 74.2 --- 80.4
Canada 73.4 --- 80.3
Norway 73.1 --- 79.7
Germany 72.6 --- 79.2
Finland 70.7 --- 78.8
United States 71.6 --- 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 --- 78.2
Denmark 72.2 --- 77.9
random statistics
Yeah, cancer sorta does that. :roll:
With regard to the salaries here in the States, they almost have to make that much, just to pay malpractice premiums. I recall reading an article not too long ago how many states are experiencing shortages due to rising insurance costs, especially baby doc's. Then again with our infant mortality rate, I'm not surprised lots of people are getting sued.