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Immigration Bill goes down in flames

ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
edited July 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Amazing. Something good happened for once in the Senate. I've been watching this bill as it moved towards passage and I hoped and prayed it would finally go away.

Nice job Bush, you never had much of a chance of approval with the anti-war crowd, and now you just fucked yourself by supporting a bill conservatives hate. Polical legacy down in flames on both sides of the aisle.

Discuss and debate, please.

ryuprecht on
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Posts

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Yes, thank God those 20 million or so illegal immigrants don't get the opportunity to become productive citizens.
    :?

    moniker on
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Do you have an article or something that is a bit more detailed than the OP? And preferably something not as biased?

    Javen on
  • GooeyGooey (\/)┌¶─¶┐(\/) pinch pinchRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    Yes, thank God those 20 million or so illegal immigrants don't get the opportunity to become productive citizens.
    :?

    Gooey on
    919UOwT.png
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User
    edited June 2007
    The bill was too good to get through, it was a perfect compromise. The problem with perfect compromises are that everyone hates them.
    It would have still given everyone to bitch about, but at least it would have delivered progress for everyone.
    I hate congress.

    Picardathon on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally. Or not at all.

    Oh, look at the time! I must leave.

    /cue flame war

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    The bill was too good to get through, it was a perfect compromise. The problem with perfect compromises are that everyone hates them.
    It would have still given everyone to bitch about, but at least it would have delivered progress for everyone.
    I hate congress.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q1TVAG0&show_article=1

    ryuprecht on
  • LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS
    edited June 2007
    Do they really need a fucking bill to secure the border? I love how I need to show my passport on my trip's from outside the US but walking north from Mexico it appears you don't need to. Hooray for the Orange Alert!

    LondonBridge on
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    Yes, thank God those 20 million or so illegal immigrants don't get the opportunity to become productive citizens.
    :?

    Yes. That way the legal immigrants can work on their productivity.

    ryuprecht on
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    The bill was too good to get through, it was a perfect compromise. The problem with perfect compromises are that everyone hates them.
    It would have still given everyone to bitch about, but at least it would have delivered progress for everyone.
    I hate congress.

    Too good? By what measure?

    Also, a perfect compromise does not make good law.

    ryuprecht on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally.

    That's the clincher for me.

    gumrucker on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    ryuprecht wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Yes, thank God those 20 million or so illegal immigrants don't get the opportunity to become productive citizens.
    :?

    Yes. That way the legal immigrants can work on their productivity.

    How does having 20 million illegals standing behind you in the long line to citizenship impact them in any negative way?

    moniker on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Problems of Sovereignty and Law and Order are generally threatened when criminal acts are condoned en masse.

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    gumrucker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally.

    That's the clincher for me.
    And when current immigration law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to achieve legal citizenship in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Because we have established rules for how to become a legal citizens, and some people choose not to follow it. We had a amnesty process back in the 80's, and it served to increase the size of the next batch of illegals.

    ryuprecht on
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    gumrucker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally.

    That's the clincher for me.

    Our immigration system is such an extreme clusterfuck I don't think there are any words that can properly describe it.

    moniker on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Abolish those ridiculously low quotas and let them come in legally. Lawfully.

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Problems of Sovereignty and Law and Order are generally threatened when criminal acts are condoned en masse.
    So like our government will fall apart because we admit that our immigration laws are too restrictive and are just harming otherwise productive, positive members of society?

    Are you advocating that laws should never be changed or challenged when found to be unsuitable or no longer relevant?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • edited June 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    ryuprecht wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Yes, thank God those 20 million or so illegal immigrants don't get the opportunity to become productive citizens.
    :?

    Yes. That way the legal immigrants can work on their productivity.

    How does having 20 million illegals standing behind you in the long line to citizenship impact them in any negative way?

    It impacts the new legal immigrants... and the current ones. The INS already can't handle the workload they have, what makes people think that they'll be able to handle more?

    EDIT:
    moniker wrote: »
    Our immigration system is such an extreme clusterfuck I don't think there are any words that can properly describe it.

    That's my point. How much worse will it be when trying to handle the illegal's turning leagal?

    gumrucker on
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    Abolish those ridiculously low quotas and let them come in legally. Lawfully.

    There's the answer. Rule of law must be followed. It's one of the cornerstones of society.

    ryuprecht on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2007
    It's not really the illegal aliens' fault that they can find work. The end of America's ridiculous vestiges of isolationist policy would be nice.

    Fencingsax on
    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    ryuprecht wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Because we have established rules for how to become a legal citizens, and some people choose not to follow it. We had a amnesty process back in the 80's, and it served to increase the size of the next batch of illegals.
    Aside from the laws that define their immigration as illegal, can you explain to me what "harm" their presence is causing in our country?

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Problems of Sovereignty and Law and Order are generally threatened when criminal acts are condoned en masse.

    You're right. We really need to start throwing jaywalkers into prisons. For too long has this plague been deemed acceptable by our do nothing executive. I say it's time we enforce the laws on the books and teach those kids that playing in the street has serious consequences. Both to you and your anal virginity.

    moniker on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    Abolish those ridiculously low quotas and let them come in legally. Lawfully.
    Agreed. And add onto that a correction for all the years we dragged our feet on it, so people aren't forced to go through a useless, beauracratic trip home and then back over the border "legally this time." Oh wait, nevermind, then talk radio starts calling it an "Amnesty bill" and it gets crushed.

    Yar on
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    The end of America's ridiculous vestiges of isolationist policy would be nice.

    I agree. Lets keep this lawful though, and open those floodgates the legal way.

    There is a very good economic reason we have such a problem with illegial immigration. We demand lots of new labor for expanding economy, and the supply through legal means is very limited.

    Thus, criminal acts and illegal immigration.

    Fuck that, let them come in legally and safely and let them work.

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    ryuprecht wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    Abolish those ridiculously low quotas and let them come in legally. Lawfully.

    There's the answer. Rule of law must be followed. It's one of the cornerstones of society.

    Societies also ignore the law all the time.

    Couscous on
  • NexusSixNexusSix Registered User
    edited June 2007
    What was that quote from a few days ago--I think from Bloomberg--about the ocean tide? Yeah.

    NexusSix on
    REASON - Version 1.0B7 Gatling type 3 mm hypervelocity railgun system
    Ng Security Industries, Inc.
    PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE - DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
    -ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-
  • MuttnikMuttnik Registered User
    edited June 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Problems of Sovereignty and Law and Order are generally threatened when criminal acts are condoned en masse.

    You're right. We really need to start throwing jaywalkers into prisons. For too long has this plague been deemed acceptable by our do nothing executive. I say it's time we enforce the laws on the books and teach those kids that playing in the street has serious consequences. Both to you and your anal virginity.

    That sure is a.... cute comparison.

    Too bad it does not hold water.

    Muttnik on
    Sentry wrote: »
    Wow... I think the ignorance of American's is vastly underestimated.
    Shinto wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. It's fun to feel like you're better than other people.
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Granting amnesty addresses the silly rule of law idealism. This is such a circular argument it makes me sick.

    There is not one single supportable argument against opening up the borders and granting amnesty. They all fail. It is racism and enforcement of birthright entitlements, plain and simple. Stop acting like it isn't.

    Yar on
  • edited June 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    gumrucker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally.

    That's the clincher for me.
    And when current immigration law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to achieve legal citizenship in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    Break the law when it's not conveinent to obey it? That doesn't sound good.

    And when current [murder] law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to [commit] legal [murder] in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    You can really sub any crime in there when laws can be broken whenever we want, what the point of laws?

    I'm not saying we shouldn't change immigration policy, I'm saying just leagalizing millions of people is a bad idea.

    gumrucker on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Muttnik wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    I really, really don't understand what the threat of legalizing some of these people is. Can someone explain why making these people legitimate citizens is a negative thing? I mean do we still think that they're going to go away if we don't legalize them or something?

    Problems of Sovereignty and Law and Order are generally threatened when criminal acts are condoned en masse.

    You're right. We really need to start throwing jaywalkers into prisons. For too long has this plague been deemed acceptable by our do nothing executive. I say it's time we enforce the laws on the books and teach those kids that playing in the street has serious consequences. Both to you and your anal virginity.

    That sure is a.... cute comparison.

    Too bad it does not hold water.

    You are right. Illegal immigrants are currently a boon to society's economy unlike jaywalkers.

    Couscous on
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Like I said, this is circular. When you legalize it, they aren't lawbreakers any more.

    Yar on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Yar wrote: »
    Granting amnesty addresses the silly rule of law idealism. This is such a circular argument it makes me sick.

    There is not one single supportable argument against opening up the borders and granting amnesty. They all fail. It is racism and enforcement of birthright entitlements, plain and simple. Stop acting like it isn't.
    You know?

    Few things really sort get me pissed off more than when conservatives can't even embrace conservative ideals like rewarding people for work, providing as much economic opportunity as possible, and the benefit of competition. This bill is one of the few truly conservative things Bush has attempted, and it's shit on in a wave of xenophobia and tired stereotypes.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    Break the law when it's not conveinent to obey it? That doesn't sound good.
    Society allows people to do it all the fucking time. We even celebrate it. The USA was founded on it.

    Couscous on
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Yar wrote: »
    Granting amnesty addresses the silly rule of law idealism. This is such a circular argument it makes me sick.

    There is not one single supportable argument against opening up the borders and granting amnesty. They all fail. It is racism and enforcement of birthright entitlements, plain and simple. Stop acting like it isn't.

    You have got to be kidding me. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in the last 5 minutes.

    Racism is a nice diversionary argument, but it's got nothing to do with this. Birthright entitlements too. It's a nice fancy phrase, you should use it more often.

    ryuprecht on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    gumrucker wrote: »
    Break the law when it's not conveinent to obey it? That doesn't sound good.

    And when current [murder] law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to [commit] legal [murder] in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    You can really sub any crime in there when laws can be broken whenever we want, what the point of laws?

    I'm not saying we shouldn't change immigration policy, I'm saying just leagalizing millions of people is a bad idea.
    No you can't sub any laws, because providing a necessary service for our nation's economy is in no way comparable to taking another person's life.

    And besides that what I'm saying is that if a law is found to be irrelevant and harmful, should we not change it? Or do we say "RULE OF LAW" and leave every piece of legislation ever written on the books untouched in the name of not letting our society crumble into rampant anarchism? I mean lord knows upping the speed limit to 65 in CA really saw a drastic spike in the murder rate, best not let such tragic things happen again.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    ryuprecht wrote: »
    You have got to be kidding me. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in the last 5 minutes.

    Racism is a nice diversionary argument, but it's got nothing to do with this. Birthright entitlements too. It's a nice fancy phrase, you should use it more often.
    Believe me, it is.

    Give me one reason you are allowed to live and work here and another isn't.

    Yar on
  • NisslNissl Registered User
    edited June 2007
    Yar wrote:
    There is not one single supportable argument against opening up the borders and granting amnesty. They all fail. It is racism and enforcement of birthright entitlements, plain and simple. Stop acting like it isn't.

    You have got to be kidding me. How many millions of unskilled laborers would we be swamped with? They depress wages at the bottom of the pay scale, they freeride off our healthcare system, they increase the crime rate.

    We should up the legal quotas if we genuinely need a bit more unskilled labor, punish people who hire illegal immigrants unbelievably hard (secure borders lol), and not reward current illegals for breaking the law. If we do give them a reward the next batch will be even goddamn bigger.
    Yar wrote:
    Give me one reason you are allowed to live and work here and another isn't.

    So the solution is to fuck up our country as much as possible until we're down at the world average per capita GDP, by rewarding illegal activity, out of some skewed sense of egalitarianism?

    Nissl on
    360: Purkinje
  • ryuprechtryuprecht Registered User
    edited June 2007
    celery77 wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Granting amnesty addresses the silly rule of law idealism. This is such a circular argument it makes me sick.

    There is not one single supportable argument against opening up the borders and granting amnesty. They all fail. It is racism and enforcement of birthright entitlements, plain and simple. Stop acting like it isn't.
    You know?

    Few things really sort get me pissed off more than when conservatives can't even embrace conservative ideals like rewarding people for work, providing as much economic opportunity as possible, and the benefit of competition. This bill is one of the few truly conservative things Bush has attempted, and it's shit on in a wave of xenophobia and tired stereotypes.

    Uh...I would disagree. Amnesty is not a conservative idea. Legal immigration would be. Increase the amount of immigration, but keep it through legal means. Conservatism (and common sense) also dictates that you protect society.

    ryuprecht on
  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User regular
    edited June 2007
    gumrucker wrote: »
    celery77 wrote: »
    gumrucker wrote: »
    Muttnik wrote: »
    If they wanted to be productive citizens they probably should have, y'know, came here legally.

    That's the clincher for me.
    And when current immigration law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to achieve legal citizenship in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    Break the law when it's not conveinent to obey it? That doesn't sound good.

    And when current [murder] law is too restrictive for these otherwise productive people to [commit] legal [murder] in the US? What recourse do they have then?

    You can really sub any crime in there when laws can be broken whenever we want, what the point of laws?

    I'm not saying we shouldn't change immigration policy, I'm saying just leagalizing millions of people is a bad idea.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_laws

    Octoparrot on
    the GOP shouldn't give a rats ass about them since they won't vote for them. If someone won't vote for you they might as well not exist.
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